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Redscare
07-08-2010, 23:45
I recently sent an e-mail to the guys at Forge World about the PDF update for the Death Korp. They are mainly my thoughts, but I wanted to share them and get some feedback and maybe lend some more credence to it should Forge World read it.

Here it is:

Hello!

The recent PDF update for the Death Korp of Krieg army was all in all very satisfying, and it gave me a lot of interest into starting a big Krieg army. However, I have some questions and concerns regarding some of the rules and the future of the Death Korp.

First of all, the PDF update is for a Death Korp Siege regiment list. I noticed that in the fluff, that while the siege regiment is a specialty of Krieg, there are also Krieg infantry regiments, armored regiments and mechanized regiments. I'm wondering if there will be any updates for these type of lists as well. I'm asking because I am a big fan of the Krieg miniatures but I am not completely sold on a static, slow moving, artillery heavy army that is the current Siege army list, although the imagery is very appealing. Will options like mobile artillery (as in the normal IG codex), Chimeras, Sentinels, Valkyries be made available sometime in the future for use by the DkoK, or was this avoided because it is not very Kreig-ish?

I also wanted to point out that the DKoK grenadiers, some of the best minis I have ever seen, leaves a lot of be desired list-wise. They look amazing, and as a gamer, I want every excuse to incorporate them into my army. However, they cost even more than current Stormtroopers and do even less, something that I wasn't even sure to be possible. They lose several abilities that make the already abysmal stomtroopers worth a glance such as the ability to Deepstrike and to take good transports, and instead the player pays even more points to lose those abilities, and instead gain a Weapon Skill, and Stubborn in combat. I have no idea the logic behind this, but it is very, very useless. Better close combat abilities for an 18pt guardsmen make as much sense as cliff-jumping lessons for suicidal lemmings, because it won't do a thing and they are going to die a horrible death anyways. Most people (myself included) would even argue that they are even worse than Stormtroopers in close combat because they have less attacks in close combat due to the lack of pistols.

Another thing is the transport. A grenadier centaur costs the same amount of points as a Chimera. This by itself is frankly, nonsensical but even that aside... 15pts mandatory upgrade that effects only 1 out of 6 possible results, maybe? And to add on top of that, you can't even take a full squad with a transport.

I am disappointed by the Death Riders and dislike how a full squad pays an incredible amount of points to have a 6+ invulnerable save that might not even come into play, but I guess not enough to make a big fuss and complain about it, unlike the above (I apologize for what it seems like, but I wouldn't be saying anything at all if I didn't love the minis so much). Again, superb models and I feel that it is such an awful shame they are not very good in the game.

I hope you do not take these questions and concerns the wrong way and I hope to hear from you guys.

jamjam
08-08-2010, 21:59
Did they ever reply?

marv335
08-08-2010, 22:12
I doubt they will.
If you want them to consider stuff like this, you need to put pen to paper.
email just doesn't cut it.

Stouty
08-08-2010, 23:07
Personally I'm down with FW's design philosophy. They don't have the same amount of time to make rules as GW so realistically speaking they can either write overpowered stuff or underpowered stuff. If they make overpowered stuff then people moan and nobody gets to use it except in the friendliest of friendly matches, if they created underpowered stuff then you can either take it on the chin or use count as rules.

If I had spent a load of money on a proper krieg army full of engineers with breech drills, static artillery, centaurs and mounted commissars, I'd much rather play a less effective than normal army then get turned away from most games. Let's face it, if the official IG codex was released by forge world as an Armoured company list it would definitely get turned away from a lot of games.

Redscare
09-08-2010, 07:28
I only sent it a few days ago; I don't expect a reply anytime soon. A mail is a mail though, although I do suspect putting pen to paper would definitely generate more attention than another simple e-mail. What gives me hope is that FW actually read these forums (indeed, for a fact; go check out the Kreig FAQ Inbound thread in rumors).

jamjam
09-08-2010, 09:39
I suppose its fair enough that they turn there attention more to the models than the rules and lets face it they have always given us stunning miniatures.

Its a shame gw dosent have some sort of rule making sister company, like forgeworld but for the game side (other than the ancients stuff)

yabbadabba
09-08-2010, 09:46
I wouldn't send you much more than a courtesy letter thanking you for your comments mate. There are better ways to strike up a dialogue with a company.

Erwos
09-08-2010, 14:42
If I had spent a load of money on a proper krieg army full of engineers with breech drills, static artillery, centaurs and mounted commissars, I'd much rather play a less effective than normal army then get turned away from most games. Let's face it, if the official IG codex was released by forge world as an Armoured company list it would definitely get turned away from a lot of games.
The irony is that the FW ABG list, if you took out the tank ace skills, isn't much more powerful than a regular IG list. More tanks, but no mechmeltavets.

If you spam slick loader on all your tanks, though, yes, it's insane. Same goes for breaching drill spam in the DKoK list, interestingly enough.

Col_Festus
09-08-2010, 15:08
Hey there, I figured I'd just throw my 2 cents out there. Take from it what you will.

First off Forgeworld really doesn't care about rules. They are all about the scenarios. Think about it... in a company where 90% of their models are "optional" to use, why would they invest time in writing balanced solid rules for them? They make the miniatures, then write the rules to appeal to the small percentage of their customers that want rules for them. You think a competitive player would let someone slap down a them? Hell no! When people start using super heavies and titans they are close enough to make rules for them, or data sheets. The DKOK reflect this mentality. They make some models, wrote some very very cool fluff for them and then decided to try and translate them to paper so people can use them. They don't give a hoot about competition or cost effectiveness when it comes to points. The people that want to take it to the next level find a way, but I'll touch on that further down.

You think that if you sent a similar letter to GW complaining about their storm troopers anything would change? Absolutely not, so why would a sister company with less resources (which mind you took them about a year to come out with a PDF for krieg since they said they were working on it) care?

Secondly, if you want to run a mechanized regiment, or an infantry regiment then run a normal Codex:IG army using the DKOK models. It's what I did. Those regiments do not differ so much from the normal IG regiments as to warrant an entirely new list. The IG book is competitive AND can make an infantry regiment, assault regiment, or a mechanized regiment. I was working on the 112th Krieg Assault Regiment. It was getting too damn expensive tho and had to scrap the project.

In fact you can make a more competitive seige regiment from the IG book than the DKOK list. You simply take creed and have him "count as" a DKOK general. That for Cadia! order suddenly becomes For Krieg! You now have a combined squad of 30 - 40 guardsmen with Str 4, Initiative 4 with 16 - 20 PW attacks. If that isn't kriegy I dunno what is lol. Oh did I mention they can outflank!? Have a problem with priests in the blob? Then convert them to a Platoon Standard or something equally inspiring to Krieg. Want to use thudd guns? I simply took a Thudd gun, put it on a heavy weapon base, then modeled two more heavy weapon bases with the loaders on them. I used it as a mortar squad. Never had anyone complain about it. You can also bring more artillery to the party including medusa seige guns, colossus' (bombard rules are kind of a joke if you ask me anyway), Manticores... etc, etc. Engineers become Veterans with Carapace, if you want to use the Grenadiers, you can use them as normal storm troopers or veterans with "modified lasguns" that count as shotguns. Just look outside the box man, you can come up with some great solutions to your problems =)

Redscare
09-08-2010, 19:30
Got a reply! It doesn't answer much at all, but it is one reply more than I expected.

Hi,



Thanks for your e-mail. The title of ‘Siege Regiment’ is a generic title given to Death Korps Infantry regiments, and as such this is the ‘standard’ Death Korps formation. Imperial Armour Volume 7: The Siege of Vraks Part III contains a Death Korps Armoured Battlegroup army list allowing you to field a Death Korps tank regiment, and an update anf FAQ for this list is soon to be made available.



To address your comments:-



The Death Korps will not have a ‘mobile’ army list – Chimeras, Sentinels and Valkyries are not used by the Krieg regiments at all, and their artillery is uniformly deployed in Static batteries rather than on mobile platforms as found in a Codex: Imperial Guard list. Our intention is to provide an alternative option to the usual Codex list, and in the case of the Death Korps this involves hordes of infantry, callous meat-grinder tactics and a paucity of hi-tech units such as Chimeras and Valkyries.



The Grenadiers are not Stormtroopers – background-wise, the Stormtrooper regiments are a separate formation, much like Cadians, Catachans, or Valhallans, that are commonly attached to Imperial Guard formations as supporting units rather than elements drawn from within the regiment.

Semantics aside, rules-wise these units are intended to spearhead an infantry assault, and provide better-armoured strongpoints within the line. The basic Grenadier squad is 5-strong, easily fitting in a Centaur – remember that this transport option allows you to fire the squads’ heavy weapon while the transport is moving (and it cannot be affected by Weapon Destroyed results) – and as such small units are perfect for a mechanised speartip to a mass Infantry assault.



The Death Riders are a modification of the Imperial Guard Rough Riders, with the addition of their Invulnerable save. The unit is included to provide a more effective assault element which, when combined with the mass attack of a large Infantry platoon, forms a punishing prospect for anyone to face. Again, this revolves around the WW1 nature of the Krieg background, and the anachronistic fielding of cavalry companies armed with lances and rifles alongside infantry regiments equipped with more ‘modern’ equipment.



We hope this answers your queries, and ultimately you can simply use the Death Korps range alongside the Codex army list.



Regards,

Ead Brown

Customer Service Manager

Forge World

@Col_Festus

I don't disagree with you. I have played this game for too long to think that FW cares a lot for the rules it writes. I am not insulting them, but like you, I too just believe that they care more about coming out with great models than they do rules. However, you are missing the point. Why not try to make DKoK more appealing by changing some of the rules in the PDF? I don't understand why you would just let this go and write it off as "well ok, I just won't use the rules for them then and you should consider it too". Sounds pretty selfish to me.

Is there some harm in making the DKoK list a better list? If not, then we, and that means all of us who enjoy the Death Korp, should make some effort to make it even better and more balanced and have it appeal to more people. Useless? Possibly. I'm still going to try though.

Col. Dash
09-08-2010, 19:58
Its not a bad list as is. I am failing to see why you want it changed so bad to be something its not. It has a distinct flavor, plays very different from standard IG and the list reflects this. It does not have the utility of a standard army and the designers wanted it this way. If you want something different use Krieg figs and the standard codex and call them Krieg. FW is always overpointed with few exceptions, it helps to make the rules more acceptable to powergamers who have issues fighting against something different and is done that way intentionally.

Col_Festus
09-08-2010, 20:13
I don't disagree with you. I have played this game for too long to think that FW cares a lot for the rules it writes. I am not insulting them, but like you, I too just believe that they care more about coming out with great models than they do rules. However, you are missing the point. Why not try to make DKoK more appealing by changing some of the rules in the PDF? I don't understand why you would just let this go and write it off as "well ok, I just won't use the rules for them then and you should consider it too". Sounds pretty selfish to me.

Because complaining to a company like GW won't change anything. They have written numerous times they care not for competition. Simply bypass them and make up a list using their rule sets that follow the fluff you want. As stated its fairly easy to make a siege regiment using codex IG.. if to better. Hell when I used to play them I used Centaurs as Chimeras.

Basically don't complain that a fluffy army list isn't competitive. Their response pretty much supports my position.

Redscare
09-08-2010, 21:22
I have one problem with the list (Grenadiers). Maybe two (Death Riders). I don't think asking them about future plans for DKoK counts as trying to change everything, but I am not surprised that people read what they want to read and not what is actually there.

FW is not a company like GW, and that's why I believe this is worth an effort. They frequently update their printed materials using online methods, and their small size makes changes much more likely. I have no problem with fluffy armies being non-competitive; I am going play DKoK regardless whether they listen, because, believe it or not, my entire goal to start DKoK did not anchor on whether they listen to a random anonymous. However, why not issue suggestions to make DkoK grenadiers more competitive while I am at it? It's not like I'm getting out of my day-job to go to UK to make a formal protest. If you are writing because you believe I am wasting my time, then I can appreciate that. However, I don't feel that this is so hopeless. To each, his own.

I suppose different trains of thoughts exist here and I won't expect you to understand mine because I sure as hell don't understand yours.

Fable
09-08-2010, 23:28
I have one problem with the list (Grenadiers). Maybe two (Death Riders). I don't think asking them about future plans for DKoK counts as trying to change everything, but I am not surprised that people read what they want to read and not what is actually there.

FW is not a company like GW, and that's why I believe this is worth an effort. They frequently update their printed materials using online methods, and their small size makes changes much more likely. I have no problem with fluffy armies being non-competitive; I am going play DKoK regardless whether they listen, because, believe it or not, my entire goal to start DKoK did not anchor on whether they listen to a random anonymous. However, why not issue suggestions to make DkoK grenadiers more competitive while I am at it? It's not like I'm getting out of my day-job to go to UK to make a formal protest. If you are writing because you believe I am wasting my time, then I can appreciate that. However, I don't feel that this is so hopeless. To each, his own.

I suppose different trains of thoughts exist here and I won't expect you to understand mine because I sure as hell don't understand yours.

Actually FW is a subsidiary of GW, and so they are a company like GW because they are the same company.

Personally I think if you're using FW rules you're probably only playing friendly games... that being the case you and your friends should be able to collude adjusted rules that you think are more competitive but balanced. Otherwise you could use standard IG rules.

Either way I think part of the reason FW won't worry so much about the rules as you suggest there isn't any reason they shouldn't is because if you're using their rules you are most likely using them as a stepping stone, a starting point in the same way FW models are a starting off point for advanced hobbyists and modelers. If you don't feel like converting the DKOK rules to suit yourself you can always swap between them and the standard IG dex.

Ironmonger
10-08-2010, 00:44
Its not a bad list as is. I am failing to see why you want it changed so bad to be something its not. It has a distinct flavor, plays very different from standard IG and the list reflects this. It does not have the utility of a standard army and the designers wanted it this way. If you want something different use Krieg figs and the standard codex and call them Krieg. FW is always overpointed with few exceptions, it helps to make the rules more acceptable to powergamers who have issues fighting against something different and is done that way intentionally.

I totally agree with you here, plain and simple. The Death Korps are NOT like the Cadians or the Steel Legion, and I don't understand why someone would want them to be. You like the models but not the rules? Great. Use Codex: Imperial Guard. I've said before that the Grenadiers should come down in price and be able to take 2 Centaurs, but either I bring it up to my gaming group, or begin a dialogue with FW to hopefully get a little change made. If not, it's their artistic vision: we're just playing in it.

I must say, however, that I'm more and more impressed with Forge World's customer service as of late. They've really gone above and beyond to interact with the community, as demonstrated by this past rash of updates and FAQ's, as well as such an in-depth response to your email. Kudos to Ead & Co.

Oh, and Redscare... you might want to ease back on the confrontational/aggressive tone you're setting. This may be a result of translation if English is not your first language, but I'm just letting you know that it's coming across as a bit abrasive.

Redscare
10-08-2010, 01:48
Well it certainly wasn't my intention to sound confrontational, and yes English is not my first language.

I never sought to change the Krieg list. I asked FW if they had plans to release other types of DKoK armies other than the Siege regiment, and made a request that they take a look at the grenadiers. No where did I suggest the list itself is not good enough. How can I not sound like I am annoyed when no one seems to read the first post before making accusatory comments?

Grenadiers... grenadiers... NOT the Siege regiment list. All I have suggested they change is the grenadiers. I appreciate how the Krieg list plays very differently and believe me I am eager to try it out. Regarding that, I don't believe I have made one contradiction or suggested I don't like how the list plays. Have people not made similar complaints about Vanguard veterans? Chaos spawns? It's a single unit for crying out loud. I'm not here to start a rebellion.

Ironmonger
10-08-2010, 04:10
No accusatory comments; just trying to be helpful. ;)

silentsmoke
10-08-2010, 05:50
I see where you Re coming from, but every army has it's good and bad points. If you want to do a mobile kriEg list, then use the guard codex!!

This is a siege list and it is a slow cumbersome list but if used correctly is very very devastating.

As to armour just combine both lists together, that is what I do when you consider the size of my krieg. I just leVe out all the non krieg stuff, like vendettas etc.

Fw have more plans for the krieg range, but I wouldn't hold your breath.

Redscare
10-08-2010, 06:13
I certainly do plan to use the guard codex for an alternate play style to the static Krieg Siege list. I felt like I had to ask though, since I figured it was within the realm of possibility.

If I'm not mistaken, Krieg also churns out very assault and vehicle heavy regiments used to form the spearhead of an infantry push, and I figured an army such as that might use Chimeras.

Col_Festus
10-08-2010, 14:19
If I'm not mistaken, Krieg also churns out very assault and vehicle heavy regiments used to form the spearhead of an infantry push, and I figured an army such as that might use Chimeras.

You are not mistaken! I love Krieg assault regiments! The only problem is they usually don't use Chimeras (as I understand it). Instead they use the Super Heavy Gorgon Troop Carries. I find it hard to believe personally that they don't use Chimeras at all seeing as they have SO much infantry.. they have to get around somehow.. Lol

Zweischneid
10-08-2010, 14:25
You are not mistaken! I love Krieg assault regiments! The only problem is they usually don't use Chimeras (as I understand it). Instead they use the Super Heavy Gorgon Troop Carries. I find it hard to believe personally that they don't use Chimeras at all seeing as they have SO much infantry.. they have to get around somehow.. Lol

They don't because DKOK are written to emulate the static, casulty-heavy, static trench-warfare of WWI, not some rapid, armoured-assault or some such.

Seriously, guys... go to p. 1 of the Krieg PDF and read the little blurb about "Why Collect a Death Korps of Krieg?"

The whole army is build around the very explicit design-goal of "we-sit-in-trenches-and-die-by-the-hundreds-while-our-artillery-pounds-you-to-pulp".


The real draw of the Death Korps is the strong imagery behind the army. Fighting bloody trench warfare in the worst war zones in the galaxy, the look of a Death Korps battlefield easily comes to mind. Blasted wilderness of shell holes and barbed wire, trenches, doug-outs and sandbags all make for great looking games. From mass infantry attacks to night raids across noman's land, there are many games to be played across such terrain. The Death Korsp are also well-suited to battle scentarios like Bunker Assault, Hold at All Costs and Meat Grinders.


Anything else, isn't really "Krieg".

Col. Dash
10-08-2010, 14:48
One Gorgon carries 50 guys. Its a blob in a box! and it looks like a landing boat from WW2. I think its a cool vehicle, but with its lack of real weapons and open top, if I was going to use a superheavy as a transport, I would use a Stormlord. Still a sweet looking vehicle. Reminds me alot of those vehicles the Bahaus used in the ill fated and horribly done movie "Mutant Chronicles." The movie and what a bad disservice it did to the Warzone universe is another thread, but the vehicles were cool and made me go "Hey look, a Gorgon!"

Grand_Marshal_Kazan
10-08-2010, 15:02
Did they ever reply?


I'm still waiting over nine months with regards to some Tyranid questions I had.

Col. Tartleton
10-08-2010, 18:06
One Gorgon carries 50 guys. Its a blob in a box! and it looks like a landing boat from WW2. I think its a cool vehicle, but with its lack of real weapons and open top, if I was going to use a superheavy as a transport, I would use a Stormlord. Still a sweet looking vehicle. Reminds me alot of those vehicles the Bahaus used in the ill fated and horribly done movie "Mutant Chronicles." The movie and what a bad disservice it did to the Warzone universe is another thread, but the vehicles were cool and made me go "Hey look, a Gorgon!"

Yeah. I see the Death Korps of Krieg as being like a HG wells version of world war one. Massive Land Ironclads dumping hordes of grim entente infantry into battle with teeming hordes of Martians and other assorted unsavory characters.

Chimeras are way too world war two.

Ironmonger
10-08-2010, 18:09
I'm still waiting over nine months with regards to some Tyranid questions I had.

Wow, I'm sorry. I got a reply in 12 hours...:angel: Maybe write them again?

TheOneWithNoName
10-08-2010, 21:35
The Death Korps will not have a ‘mobile’ army list – Chimeras, Sentinels and Valkyries are not used by the Krieg regiments at all

Doh, ho ho, not only did they answer your question in the negative, but they plain out state Krieg regiments don't use Chimeras, Sentinels and Valkyries. If your Krieg are using Chimeras, Sentinels, and/or Valkyries, YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG. :p

Starchild
10-08-2010, 22:45
We hope this answers your queries, and ultimately you can simply use the Death Korps range alongside the Codex army list.I knew they would say this. Sounds a lot like the latest Dark Angel FAQ (i.e., if you don't like what you've got, just go buy the Space Marine codex.) :angel:

Grand_Marshal_Kazan
16-08-2010, 15:32
Wow, I'm sorry. I got a reply in 12 hours...:angel: Maybe write them again?

Funny enough after this I finally got a reply from them (I actually sent the e-mail in April, must have mixed it up with another one I sent) :rolleyes:

Col. Dash
16-08-2010, 17:49
Unlike GW, FW does apparently read this forum to see whats being said about them(I dont think they have ever responded here though). Its why the recent FAQ was pretty much every single thing we asked. Its a big + for their much improving customer service. Someone probably noticed your question and started looking.

tu33y
16-08-2010, 18:36
There are better ways to strike up a dialogue with a company.

you mean chaining yourself to the bronze space marine on willow road at lenton with "Squats 4 eva" craved with a razor on your chest? :);)

Vaktathi
16-08-2010, 21:34
Doh, ho ho, not only did they answer your question in the negative, but they plain out state Krieg regiments don't use Chimeras, Sentinels and Valkyries. If your Krieg are using Chimeras, Sentinels, and/or Valkyries, YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG. :p

Which is weird, because IA:V says they do field everything but Drop Troops armies, only that Siege Regiments don't use Chimeras.

Ironmonger
16-08-2010, 21:38
you mean chaining yourself to the bronze space marine on willow road at lenton with "Squats 4 eva" craved with a razor on your chest? :);)

Sig'd! :evilgrin:

CushionRide
17-08-2010, 04:26
i spent a week researching the current IG codex, and compaired it to the FW IA7 renegade guard list, basicly i combined the Nurgle guard with the orginazation of the current codex, i came up with a very interesting army. drew it up on page maker, i think it would be a fun army to play in a game, ^_^ i just dont like the fact that everything from books 5-7 are based on the old codex. :P