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Ivellis
07-08-2010, 23:57
Some posts in the next CSM codex thread really made me think, how does an invulnerable save represent Tzeentch? Rubric Marines specifically I can see it, but for Tzeentch worshipers in general it seems strange. They aren't known for their resilience, but for their psychic powers, crazy mutations and ambition.

How could this be represented in a mark/icon?

ehlijen
08-08-2010, 00:06
As a form of supernatural protection, I don't see an invul save as being unfitting at all.

Chem-Dog
08-08-2010, 00:30
It's a confusion caused by the fact it's two concepts that combine to create an effect.
Invulnerable saves are granted by Daemonic auras, arcane spells and technological means (depending on the individual case) the Tzeench boost represents Tzeench manipulating the strands of fate of an individual, dud bullets, aim interrupted at the last moment, rounds colliding in mid air and any number of quirks that keep that individual alive when perhaps they shouldn't be. Some call it luck, fluke and chance, those who know give praise to Tzeench ;)

Bubble Ghost
08-08-2010, 00:56
It makes perfect background sense for them to have magical warpy forcefields or be protected by fate, it's fine on those terms. But it breaks down on an army scale because it just doesn't create a very Tzeentchy feel to how the army works. The marks of Khorne, Slaanesh and Nurgle all nudge you towards playing the army in a way appropriate to that god, but the mark of Tzeentch doesn't.

Personally, like I said in Hellebore's appropriateness thread, I like the idea of Tzeentch units being Scouts, as they always seem to know where and when the enemy will deploy and are one step ahead. That or Fearless, because everything is just part of Tzeentch's plan and is preordained.

Hellebore
08-08-2010, 00:57
In some ways I think it would have been better to make it a cover save. Because no matter how fluky/timey wimey you are, a large blast area will still hit you. It would have shown the ability to side step fate without necessarily ignoring it.

But if you wanted to get away from that, the mark could be a collective psychic power for a unit, or a list of possible upgrades they could take - scout, redeployment, forcing an enemy unit to go to ground once per game. Stuff like that. Maybe even causing a unit to attack itself in combat once.

The mark of tzeentch is the hardest mark to represent in a wargame IMO, because it has non war related uses. Slannesh does too, but the results of those activities should produce war advantages.

Hellebore

Bubble Ghost
08-08-2010, 01:05
In some ways I think it would have been better to make it a cover save. Because no matter how fluky/timey wimey you are, a large blast area will still hit you. It would have shown the ability to side step fate without necessarily ignoring it.

That would make it so that Tzeentch armies, of all the Chaos forces, were the ones that could most afford to throw cunning and care out the window! That's part of the problem with it now - rather than encouraging you to be crafty lke Tzeentch, it does the exact opposite, giving you a crutch so you don't have to bother.

Askari
08-08-2010, 01:20
The Mark of Tzeentch is extremely hard to represent, being the Mark of a God who likes to change things, just because.

It should definitely be more of a psyker-Mark however, giving it's unit the ability to negate psychic powers targetting it. Actual Psykers with the Mark of Tzeentch should be nigh-unstoppable, perhaps ignoring enemy psychic defences, but that creates an "exception to an exception" scenario which everyone hates.

I'd quite like a HQ with the Mark of Tzeentch being allowed to redeploy an enemy unit prior to the game beginning, or force a unit into reserve. But now it's getting complex, which although apt, isn't good from a gaming POV.

Which is why it's boiled down to an Invulnerable save, explained away as Fate protecting his pawns, as if Tzeentch cares :p

Chem-Dog
08-08-2010, 02:00
The mark of tzeentch is the hardest mark to represent in a wargame IMO, because it has non war related uses.

It's just the hardest to represent in a statistic increase like the others. Khorne makes you stronger, Slaanesh hightens your reflexes, Nurgle kills your nerves....all easily represented by an extra pip of stats, I can't think of a Stat that aptly represents Tzeench's gift, except Maybe Ld, which is largely redundant in the armies where Tzeench's patronage is represented.

In various games over the years the presence of a Tzeenchian leader has offered "tactical" advantages, I'm thinking specifically of BFG and Man O War.
But even this can only be reflected by a Leader and not by rank and file units, unless they get to modify reserve rolls and get all sorts of alternative deployment options as Helebore suggested.



Which is why it's boiled down to an Invulnerable save, explained away as Fate protecting his pawns, as if Tzeentch cares :p

Tzeench is protecting his pawns so that one of his ineffable plans comes to fruition, not out of any great desire to protect his worshippers, he'd be just as likely to protect an agent of the Imperium if it suited his purpose....


While on the subject of Tzeench, I think Rubric Marines should be different from followers of Tzeench, there should be a legitimate way of playing Tzeench following CSM's who aren't walking suits of armour. I could offer a valid explanation of why they don't exist, but I would prefer it, on a personal level, if there was a difference.

Iracundus
08-08-2010, 02:12
In some ways I think it would have been better to make it a cover save. Because no matter how fluky/timey wimey you are, a large blast area will still hit you. It would have shown the ability to side step fate without necessarily ignoring it.

An invulnerable save does that already without offering a guaranteed bypass. A large blast can still fail due to "fluke" happenings and twists of fate. The round ends up being a dud or a flawed round so the blast doesn't actually hit. Alternatively maybe it means a momentary flinch or pause or twitch when firing that ends up sending the blast off target.

Finally the invulnerable save wasn't purely about coincidental events of manipulated fate but could also be ascribed to psychic wards and protective spells. Thus the large blast gets deflected or flows around the target. In that respect, it would be similar to Eldar rune armor.

Bubble Ghost
08-08-2010, 02:18
While on the subject of Tzeench, I think Rubric Marines should be different from followers of Tzeench, there should be a legitimate way of playing Tzeench following CSM's who aren't walking suits of armour. I could offer a valid explanation of why they don't exist, but I would prefer it, on a personal level, if there was a difference.

+1 to that. If there is to be this "quadrinity" of Cult units, I think Slaanesh and Tzeentch both need a new one - Noise Marines and Thousand Sons are more an exploration of their gods' background than an embodiment of it, and they sit a bit awkwardly alongside Berzerkers and Plague Marines as a result. They should most certainly exist, but I feel as though they're currently using up 'slots' that should more properly be taken by something that more wholly reflects Slaanesh and Tzeentch.

Hellebore
08-08-2010, 04:35
Meh, I was only referring to the cover save RATHER than an invulnerable save, if said invulnerable save was going to be part of their rules. It wouldn't have been any different, 5+ cover save for the unit, +1 to pre-existing cover saves.

Anyway, back to the idea I was referring to.

"The All Seeing Eye of Tzeentch"
Those marked by Tzeentch are gifted with great insight and mystical power, albiet ever shifting and changing as befits their inconstant god.

Roll 1D6 per unit with the mark of Tzeentch before game setup and apply the following:

1: The followers are gifted arcane protection, shifting between realities to avoid enemy attacks. 5+ invulnerable save/ +1 to existing invulnerable save.
2: Guided by Tzeentch these cultists are able to land the most impossible blows. Re-roll failed to wound rolls.
3: Gifted with second sight the followers are capable of seeing a short way into the future to ensure their plans succeed. Re-roll failed to hit rolls.
4: By fluke of chance enemy attacks ricochett from pauldrons or pass through armour plating missing vital areas. Re-roll failed armour saves.
5: With the insight of Tzeentch these followers are supremely confidant of their abilities. May choose to pass or fail any Morale test.
6: Unnatural strategic insight flows through the cultists ensuring they can attack from a position of strength. The unit gains the Scout special rule and may re-roll any Outflank reserves roll or to determine table edge.


Independent Characters may choose their ability. Their favour in the eyes of their god is beyond mortal ken.

I don't think Tzeentch can be easily represented by one single ability (which I suppose it appropriate for the god of change).

The above is pretty much just taking the three augmentation eldar psychic powers, the current invulnerable save ability and adding a strategic/morale element.

It might get tricky to keep track of, but I don't think you'll have too many units.

It uses the Possessed method, although you learn if a unit has scout before the game is setup ensuring they will actually be able to outflank.

Hellebore