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Nemesis7884
08-08-2010, 07:44
how can you prepare to fight a skaven army? every other army has their weak spots, low on machinery, no range, lack of cavallery etc.... skaven got it all...and with the horde rules they got even better...kinda the most versataile army there is

magic - check
artillery / warmachines -check
speed - check
elite troops that can dish out - check
cheap hordes - check
elite characters (rat demon) - check
...?

Wakerofgods
08-08-2010, 07:51
Would a well rounded army not intended to fight them specifically do well enough?

If they are very well rounded force then the counter seems another rounded force.

I dont play against skaven though, they do seem very nasty.

Nemesis7884
08-08-2010, 08:05
Would a well rounded army not intended to fight them specifically do well enough?

If they are very well rounded force then the counter seems another rounded force.

I dont play against skaven though, they do seem very nasty.

i dont understand exactly what you mean, you can not round other armies that well because you dont have so versatile options...and you never know what to expect...other armies usually have a clear direction that fits their background, skaven kind seem to have a bit of everything (or lots of it)...i like the backgroung of skaven, nevertheless...

Vandelan
08-08-2010, 08:22
Plenty of other armies in the game have everything the same as Skaven except for the whole horde thing. Just off the top of my head Empire, Dark Elves, and High Elves cover all of those bases listed above.

The big difference between Skaven and the rest of those is that I know the best way to deal with Skaven is to charge their flank.

xxRavenxx
08-08-2010, 09:23
Skaven dont have any heavy hitters. (Knights, Swordmasters, chaos chosen, etc).

Thats the gap in their army.

shelfunit.
08-08-2010, 09:43
Skaven pros -

They have access to vast arrays of troops/troop types, and can get them in vast quantities.

The leadership rules they come with over-ride what would be a fatal weakness and combined with the new re-roll of all leadership tests allowed by the BSB and the generals leadership in a 24" diameter bubble thay have the same Ld as dwarfs, ie impregnable.

They have excellent magic capacity and at least one game ending spell, which is now far easier to cast now in 8th irresistably.

The new initiative srikes first regardless of charge now makes even their weaker troops likely to inflict a credible ammount of damage on all but the most heavily armoured foes.

The Storm Banner can, for a tiny cost erradicate their greatest weakness - being squelched by template weapons and shot to death - yes it affects their own troops to, but this is generally less detrimental to them than it is against other armys such as DE, HE, WE, Dwarfs, Empire, OK of which (generally) most of their opponents will come from.

Cons -

Such a large quantity of troops on the table means the potential for being bottlenecked against terrain, the newer terrain rules have nearly removed this as a problem for skaven now.

The ability to be lose all their Ld bonuses by being flanked was a great problem, but in 8th the most common flanking units, fast cavalry have been hit by needing full ranks to break ranks. To give the fast cav enough ranks to both survive getting to the flanks and then (as ranks are counted after combat now) last long enough to be able to break the ranks is an option. This falls under analysis tho as with 2.5k or 3k skaven can build a battle line that stretches from table edge to table edge and presents no flanks to the enemy.

Overall I believe skaven have really been boosted a vast ammount in 8th, but regardless of numbers they will die in droves in HtH against any and all opponents, its just a case of will they fail their stubborn ld 10 re-rollable break tests over the course of the game?

The above is just my opinion of how they could be played etc, etc. I have yet to play skaven in 8th and the scenarios have not been factored in to the above post, but the potential is there for skaven to do very well in this new game we call warhammer.

Korraz
08-08-2010, 09:45
They have. Rat Ogres. They are underused right now, but beware...
What they do NOT have is cavalry, also, Rat Demon makes me laugh.
The Ogres however...
magic - check
artillery / warmachines -check
speed - check
elite troops that can dish out - check
cheap hordes - check
elite characters - check
cavalry - check

Holy Smokes! Ogres are even MORE uber!

NecroMaster
08-08-2010, 09:52
They have. Rat Ogres. They are underused right now, but beware...
What they do NOT have is cavalry, also, Rat Demon makes me laugh.
The Ogres however...
magic - check
artillery / warmachines -check
speed - check
elite troops that can dish out - check
cheap hordes - check
elite characters - check
cavalry - check

Holy Smokes! Ogres are even MORE uber!

I just Love it.

Rogzor87
08-08-2010, 09:55
Skaven dont have any heavy hitters. (Knights, Swordmasters, chaos chosen, etc).

Thats the gap in their army.

Apparently PCB's/Rat Ogre's/HPA's are not heavy hitters.

Heimagoblin
08-08-2010, 10:01
Plenty of other armies in the game have everything the same as Skaven except for the whole horde thing. Just off the top of my head Empire, Dark Elves, and High Elves cover all of those bases listed above.

So what worthwile war machines do high elves have? Compare the warpfire thrower to the bolt thrower, I know which i'd rather have! Now compare there core to the skaven core. Do you really need me to list why the skaven core are better! You would think high elves come out top in the specials but skaven have some amazing and cheap units there such as plauge monks and potentially plauge censer bearers.

Aswell as this, the skaven rare choices are 100 times better. Lets not forget that skaven have the plauge furnace aswell as cheap powerful casters and an easy way to nuke a unit with the dreaded 13th spell and a power scroll. Thats just 1 of the 3 armies but I can't be bothered to compare them all.



The big difference between Skaven and the rest of those is that I know the best way to deal with Skaven is to charge their flank.

It doesn't work, they keep steadfast and then either shoot you to death or hit you in your flank or rear.

Skaven dont have any heavy hitters. (Knights, Swordmasters, chaos chosen, etc).

Hellpit abomination, doomwheels. I'd call them quite heavy

Thats the gap in their army.

No, thats what the gap in their army should have been!

Rogzor87
08-08-2010, 10:04
But if they protect there flank then what? all smart players know to protect the weakness of the army. A competent skaven player will protect the flank or have disposable units there.

Dag
08-08-2010, 10:13
They have. Rat Ogres. They are underused right now, but beware...
What they do NOT have is cavalry, also, Rat Demon makes me laugh.
The Ogres however...
magic - check
artillery / warmachines -check
speed - check
elite troops that can dish out - check
cheap hordes - check
elite characters - check
cavalry - check

Holy Smokes! Ogres are even MORE uber!


ogres overpowered? really? they got a big boost and are good, but not a top ranked army even still.

AFnord
08-08-2010, 10:15
Skaven is an army that you need to wear down. Most of their ranged things are incredibly fragile, so you should not have to divert a lot of fire in order to take care of them, and depending on what army you play, you can simply grind down skaven blocks. Skaven are good, no doubt about it, but they are not as good as people seem to give them credit for.

Toddums
08-08-2010, 10:21
Quick questions


Can you make a competitive clan moulder army or not so much?

Frotz
08-08-2010, 10:22
The main problem with skaven are that some of the elite troops took beatings with the new edition (both 7ed AB and 8 ed rulebook), mainly plague censer bearers and gutter runners. Both are quite expensive and don't deliver what they used to (haven't actually tried the new gutter runners, they just don't look attractive on paper), though the PCBs took the bigger hit. The main deal with them as I saw it was getting the charge for first strike, flank or rear, and inflicting enough casualties to not get hit back. Any combat with them that lasted to round two was not good (since they become a lot weaker by round two).

The reason rat ogres are underused are that they're low on toughness and ini, that combined with no saves will make them die in droves before getting any hits off. They're for flanking regular infantry, but I can't see them go toe to toe with any hardhitters, except if they flank a unit of knights or something that won't get many awesome attacks back. Points-wise they're cheaper than 6ed, which will make them more attractive than before.

As for Ld 10 steadfast for a unit, that's only if the general is a warlord or grey seer (or a warlord or grey seer is in the unit) and the unit hasn't been flanked. Flank and you bring it down to Ld 7, if the general isn't around you'll bring it down to 5 most of the time.

Since quite a few of the skaven characters are dirt cheap, there's no problem in running loads of chieftains and a warlord or two.

Chaos Undecided
08-08-2010, 10:30
Whilst its true that getting onto the flank to ruin their leadership bonus is a sounds strategy versus skaven its also quite possible that if the Skaven player doesnt go overboard on the expensive stuff that you wont have a flank to get at until you succeed in breaking a unit, something flankers arent always capable of doing, unless you have access to units with outflanking special rules anyway.

CauCaSus
08-08-2010, 10:32
Speaking from a skaven perspective, yes the steadfast rules made the skaven army a lot more reliable, but a lot of the damage the army puts out is from warmachines and magic which is prone to misfire and then will take out half a unit with them. Also, that steadfast Ld 10 with a re-roll is still a T3 rat with 5+ or even no save. They might not run as fast as they used to, but they still die in droves.

Gallock
08-08-2010, 10:34
Apparently PCB's/Rat Ogre's/HPA's are not heavy hitters.

Only the HPA need apply for the job in 8th. No survivability - no point.

Korraz
08-08-2010, 10:40
ogres overpowered? really? they got a big boost and are good, but not a top ranked army even still.

Please, have This (http://bahairants.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/irony-meter.gif), good sir.


On topic...Skaven have weaknesses. Break the rangs. Kill the ASB, kill the general. Do the same thing, you do to the killy stuff of other armies. Use your brain, this is a Wargame after all!

Olyphant
08-08-2010, 10:42
The reason rat ogres are underused are that they're low on toughness and ini, that combined with no saves will make them die in droves before getting any hits off. They're for flanking regular infantry, but I can't see them go toe to toe with any hardhitters, except if they flank a unit of knights or something that won't get many awesome attacks back. Points-wise they're cheaper than 6ed, which will make them more attractive than before.


Erm Rat Ogres are init 4 (they are expensive to buy which is why you dont see alot of them) with means they go before most things bar elves/chaos (warriors and slaanesh) I run mine 3x2 which gives ludicrous attacks and stomps it can cause pretty heavy damage and there disposable because thats how I treat my army. The only 2 things important in a skaven army are the general and bsb. Take them out and things start to go wrong.

GodlessM
08-08-2010, 10:52
Plenty of other armies in the game have everything the same as Skaven except for the whole horde thing. Just off the top of my head Empire, Dark Elves, and High Elves cover all of those bases listed above.


Do all these armies have Doomwheels and HPAs? People complain about the Hydra alot, but the HPA is the most uncosted and broken unit in this game; it's ridiculous.

I've seen Skaven in action a few times now in 8th and played against them once, and they steamroll every time. And the list I saw wasn't even optimised. They are top tier, and quite hard to counter, unless your opponent leaves out the rare choices.

NecroMaster
08-08-2010, 11:16
I cant help it my opponent brings no flaming attacks to the game. Theres plenty of options for them now so why dont you take some. HPA only has a toughness of five. Five seems to be the average in 8th.
Ahh, my HPA gets killed more often than not. If you cant plan for the occasion, then in my opinion, it's you're own fault. People need to stop whining and start taking the Purple Sun. HPA=Init3. 50% chance of killing the darn thing with one blow. I could keep going with some of the new spells out there nowadays, but I'm sure most everyone has read the book now.

I'm starting a picket.

Stop the whining. Stop the whining.

Korraz
08-08-2010, 11:25
It's not like there are Bolt Throwers and cannons out there, that wound the HPA on 2s, do multiple wounds and get taken regularly

kardar233
08-08-2010, 11:35
*ahem* Bolt throwers wound on 3s, not 2s.

Anyways, not all armies have access to artillery.

Idle Scholar
08-08-2010, 11:40
They are top tier, and quite hard to counter, unless your opponent leaves out the rare choices.

That's the one thing I seriously lament about the current Skaven book. It's either take the HPA and cheese out or don't take it and be unable to hurt anything in H2H :(

eyescrossed
08-08-2010, 11:47
I cant help it my opponent brings no flaming attacks to the game. Theres plenty of options for them now so why dont you take some. HPA only has a toughness of five. Five seems to be the average in 8th.
Ahh, my HPA gets killed more often than not. If you cant plan for the occasion, then in my opinion, it's you're own fault. People need to stop whining and start taking the Purple Sun. HPA=Init3. 50% chance of killing the darn thing with one blow. I could keep going with some of the new spells out there nowadays, but I'm sure most everyone has read the book now.
Hey, guess what?

This is the list I used against my friend's Skaven.

(please don't view this, Killboss)

Lord: Vampire Lord with Sword of Battle, Talisman of Preservation, Scroll of Shielding, Ruby Ring of Ruin, Forbidden Lore: Vampires, Avatar of Death (HW/S), Walking Death, Lord of the Dead and Lvl3 – 450

Heroes: Vampire with Helm of Commandment, the Black Periapt, Charmed Shield and Master of the Black Arts – 200

Wight King BSB with Great Weapon, the Crown of the Damned, Ironcurse Icon and the Dragonhelm – 155

Wight King with the Cursed Book, Potion of Speed and the Sword of Kings – 125

Konrad von Carstein – 145

Core: 21 Skeletons with FC – 188

31 Skeletons with FC and Banner of the Endless Nightmare – 293

31 Ghouls with Ghast – 256

Corpse Cart with Balefire – 100

Special: 29 Grave Guard with FC and the Banner of the Barrows – 411

Rare: 3 Cairn Wraiths with Tomb Banshee – 175

2503 points

So what would you recommend? Taking a random mounted Vampire with the Balefire Spike? Adding the Hellfire Banner to the bare unit of Skeletons and get them killed in CC? Hinder the Grave Guard against other things so they can possibly kill the HPA?

The Enchanted Item on the Vampire Lord was never close enough to be used, and even then it's situational.

What do you want me to do? Change my list completely to tailor towards one army's unit?



It's not like there are Bolt Throwers and cannons out there, that wound the HPA on 2s, do multiple wounds and get taken regularly

Yep, because every single army has access to those War Machines, AND all of them can make them Flaming :rolleyes:

That only works reliably with Dwarfs, or Empire armies who take a General of the Empire and give a unit of Handgunners or Crossbowmen the Banner of Eternal Flame.

Oh yeah, and the Storm Banner/Howling Warpgale won't do anything at all either :eyebrows:

Korraz
08-08-2010, 11:51
What I recommend? Drop the useless Konrad, take another Caster Vampire and cast the thing to death.

TeddyC
08-08-2010, 12:01
But if they protect there flank then what? all smart players know to protect the weakness of the army. A competent skaven player will protect the flank or have disposable units there.

a competent player will know how to explouit and find weaknesses.

template weapons? massed fire?...

skaven have very little in the way of large amount of attacks that hit hard. Doom wheel/rat ogres/hellpit thingy.... all well and good but theres not many of them, nothing compared to 20 greatswords, chaos chosen etc....

they dont have massed missle fire like wood elves/dark elves/gunline lists. Their missiles are in the form of warmachines.... which can bea easily routed with fast cav/fliers etc.

they arent the 'uber army' by any stretch

Tymell
08-08-2010, 12:06
ogres overpowered? really? they got a big boost and are good, but not a top ranked army even still.

Wow, pretty epic irony-detection fail :p

Anywho, Skaven are certainly a good army with plenty of potential variety, and 8th ed rules on the whole have helped them further. But they still have their weak spots (overall lack of dependaple heavy-hitters and shooting, very reliant on certain linchpins within the army, toys prone to go wrong).

I think they're very characterful personally, and the problem more lies in some armies needing updating than Skaven being messed up.

eyescrossed
08-08-2010, 12:09
What I recommend? Drop the useless Konrad, take another Caster Vampire and cast the thing to death.

Oh yeah, I can totally se how useless he is. You know, seeing as the Wight King in his unit can take challenges while he cuts up things, and the only things that can reliably kill him are Saurus, Chaos Warriors and Knights, monsters and Ogres (which he will kill before they kill him).

Not to mention how taking another caster simply for the Hell Pit Abomination (would be the Lore of Fire, no?) isn't tailoring at all :rolleyes:

Korraz
08-08-2010, 12:20
No, Necromancy. There's more in Necromancy than Invocaction and Danse Macabre.
Not to mention Shadow or Death.

Investing 300 points to kill irrelevant rank and file-stuff is certainly a great plan, especially since they can't step up.

eyescrossed
08-08-2010, 12:30
No, Necromancy. There's more in Necromancy than Invocaction and Danse Macabre.
Not to mention Shadow or Death.
Like what? Gaze of Nagash? It causes an average of 1 Wound after Regeneration per casting. Curse of Years? It's one wound and it can be Regenerated, not to mention it can be Dispelled in following turns when it Wounds on lower rolls. Wind of Undeath? It's a 12+ to cast and has a 25% chance to do 1 Wound.



Investing 300 points to kill irrelevant rank and file-stuff is certainly a great plan, especially since they can't step up.
Why thank you. It's worked in your world of sarcasm quite well.

Even out of it. It might not work in your -cough-meta-cough- game but it works here.

EDIT: Yes, Death and Shadow work quite well but taking out Konrad doesn't leave enough points to make a casting character.

Korraz
08-08-2010, 13:14
You could also drop the now obsolete wight king.
But the easiest way to handle the HPA without changing the list is...tarpit it. For God's Sake, you are playing THE tarpit army. Let it run into zombie speedbumb after zombie speedbumb. It won't get the chance to charge something that matters.

itcamefromthedeep
08-08-2010, 14:31
People need to stop whining and start taking the Purple Sun. HPA=Init3. 50% chance of killing the darn thing with one blow. I could keep going with some of the new spells out there nowadays, but I'm sure most everyone has read the book now.
Hell Pit Abominations are Initiative 4.

They are not very efficient target for a spell like The Purple Sun of Xereus. They may be the best target for the spell in the Skaven army, but not a *good* target.

If you are bringing the Lore of Death, you might have more success hitting it with a Ruby Ring of Ruin to nix the Regeneration followed by Spirit Leech, Caress of Laniph or the Fate of Bjuna.

Perhaps the most efficient way I've seen of killing a Hell Pit Abomination is a Bretonnian Lord with the Virtue of Heroism and a Sword of Bloodshed (note that the magic weapon restriction on the virtue appears to have been removed).

---

Skaven may be overshadowed by the power of certain other top-tier lists. Lizardmen and Teclis-powered High Elves may do it. Warriors of Chaos also have a shot at it, and the tools to kill Hell Pit Abominations.

Screaming Manti
08-08-2010, 14:46
As a skaven player i do feel that skaven have become really good, some people outright call my army cheese just because i take a hellpit and i know how powerful it can be but i dont go all out on toys, i see many ways in which i could make my army better but i just take units that look fun and i want to use. Im consistently toning down my army and trying to include more blocks but that can be just as bad because of the whole LD10 stubborn thing.

As for the vamps taking on that hellpit, tarpitting it normally wont work as it takes out far too much with a average roll. From my experience on how my hellpit dies the way i would kill it without flaming attacks is either charging it with a big block and possibly another unit and hope he rolls low for his attaks and then your holding him up or possibly if he fails his LD test you could run him down. You need to try and beat it with static CR. Another way would be simply to sacrifice a vampire or something to it to discract it from your battleline.

Its a hard one because as a skaven player vamps are a good army for the hellpit to be let loose against

Rochr
08-08-2010, 15:09
Rat Ogres are great... they have mostly better stats than normal Ogres and Trolls (Init 4) so I can't see why complain about them. They are also Frenzied so they are ItP. Not saying they will win any wars but definitely a force to be reckoned with.

HPA is annoying because unless you play Empire or Dwarfs you do not really have a good way of dealing with them. Most armies do not (contrary to popular beliefs) have a D6 wound causing cannon which in Dwarfs case also can ignore regeneration. For say a WoC player there really is only a few ways to deal with this guy and that is a Tzeentch or Fire Sorcerer, pref a Lord if you want to reliably kill it.

Agoz
08-08-2010, 15:26
Rat ogres aren't initiative four, only the rat ogre champ is intiative four, the rest of the rat ogres are initiative 3.

larabic
08-08-2010, 15:41
Nope they are In 4 with 4 attacks (frenzy) i am almost certain of this, tha champion has an extra attack and WS 4.

Kenshinzo 7
08-08-2010, 15:54
Rat Ogres are In 4. Masterbred are In 5.

Kevlar
08-08-2010, 15:58
Skaven are great in the new edition, no dount. A unit of 50 slaves with shields for a 6+/6+ is dirt cheap and can tar pit a lot of stuff with steadfast. Doomwheels and hellpits are great monsters that both excel at what they do, killing other monsters in the doomwheel's case, and taking on units with the HPA.

What skaven lack though is toughness and armor. Template weapons will kill them in droves most time giving no saves. The entire army is T3 except for the rare unit of monks who have zero armor save, or rat ogres who cost a ton of points each again with no armor save.

Archers and stone throwers will wreck skaven units.

And when you flank them that rerollable 10 leadership drops to a 7. Outside the generals bubble they are only a 5. And slaves are a whopping leadership 2.

If you see a screaming bell on the field, charge it! The grey seer can not hide and has no armor save. Sure he gets a 4+ ward, so every other attack you send at him is going to wound him. He has crap weaponskill and only t4. Then you take out the general and all of the rest of the skaven units are much less effective. Killing him is easily accomplished even with a small unit of skirmishers. The bell has a huge frontage, so you can direct 6 or 7 20mm bases worth of attacks on him. Even more with supporting attacks if you have two ranks.

If you see a big unit of plague monks on a furnace that is harder to deal with. The priest on the furnace is fairly meaningless to the unit so killing him won't help you too much. What you need to do is kill the furnace. Its T6, 6W so you need a unit with great weapons or lances to reliably take it down. With step up though it shouldn't be to tough. And monks without a furnace are crap in 8th. Frenzy and their extra hand weapon only work on the first rank so they don't get many more attacks than any other unit. Without the furnace they are easy to break and run down.

Heimagoblin
08-08-2010, 16:05
I cant help it my opponent brings no flaming attacks to the game. Theres plenty of options for them now so why dont you take some. HPA only has a toughness of five. Five seems to be the average in 8th.
Ahh, my HPA gets killed more often than not. If you cant plan for the occasion, then in my opinion, it's you're own fault. People need to stop whining and start taking the Purple Sun. HPA=Init3. 50% chance of killing the darn thing with one blow. I could keep going with some of the new spells out there nowadays, but I'm sure most everyone has read the book now.

I'm starting a picket.

Stop the whining. Stop the whining.

Are you serious? You seem to be saying that the hell pit is balanced but you then go on to suggest people change there list just in case they face one.If people need to tailor any list incase they face one then it is definatly inbalanced. All units have a hard counters, but for the hellpit, the closest you get is flaming cannons and only 1 army has that. Even the banner of eternal flame still leaves you with a t5 monster than puts out, what 3d6 str 6 hits every turn.

Korraz, you go on to suggest tarpiting it. When it kills 10 or so models !18 with crumple) a turn you can't tarpet it except with very very cheap units like, say, slaves. Oh wait, dang there skaven too. You are also relying on the skaven player letting you tarpit it. Lets not forget it has a 360 line of sight for charges so its quite manouverable too. Add to that its very cheap and you'll start to understand why it is perhaps the 2nd best buy in the entire system, perhaps after flamers of tzeentch.

And, a personal tip, if you are playing as skaven and using one I think it would be best not to voice to your opponent your views on this subject as the only thing worse than playing one of these things is having to listen to an opponet telling you its perfectly balanced whilst its stomping your army.

You see, i'm usually quite a calm person and i'm sure you can tell i'm getting anoyed by your claims and this is over the internet discussion whilst I'm on holiday, relaxing and not even playing you and having my beloved stegadon Eyor splatterd!

Bac5665
08-08-2010, 16:12
The HPA is the only killy thing in Skaven, at leastin H2H. Rat ogres and PCBs are a joke, stormvermin are terrible.

Yes the plague furnace is pretty good, but as you say, it got worse in 8E.

So, sure, Skaven have plenty of tools to hold you in place or magic you (but only with the skaven lores, no overpowered BRB lores for them...) but unless they go dual HPA, no real threat for actual killing. And actual killing is just about all that matters in 8E.

Oh, and the scenarios are actually quite bad for Skaven. Holding the tower is quite hard, and taking it is harder, and the pass is even worse of a bottleneck, and so on. Skaven are solid, no doubt, but they are not uber in 8E. IMO, that label belongs to WoC; Tzeentch CWs with H+S are scary as hell.

Korraz
08-08-2010, 16:17
Ah, you are clearly facing a true skaven, as he has the favour of the horned one on his side and thus always rolls 15"/Avalanche/12
In that case...destroy your miniatures, burn your clothing, tear your eyes out and behave like a rat. You might have a chance to survive when the Skaven conquer the world.

On a serious note, sometimes I think people WANT to lose to an Abomination/Horde/Magic/Snotling Base.

Heimagoblin
08-08-2010, 16:19
The HPA is the only killy thing in Skaven, at leastin H2H. Rat ogres and PCBs are a joke, stormvermin are terrible.

Yes the plague furnace is pretty good, but as you say, it got worse in 8E.

So, sure, Skaven have plenty of tools to hold you in place or magic you (but only with the skaven lores, no overpowered BRB lores for them...) but unless they go dual HPA, no real threat for actual killing. And actual killing is just about all that matters in 8E.

Oh, and the scenarios are actually quite bad for Skaven. Holding the tower is quite hard, and taking it is harder, and the pass is even worse of a bottleneck, and so on. Skaven are solid, no doubt, but they are not uber in 8E. IMO, that label belongs to WoC; Tzeentch CWs with H+S are scary as hell.

Doomwheels? Stormvermin? warpfire throwers? Rat Ogres? Pcb's. There are plenty of ways for skaven to kill thing, in hand to hand or not.

Bac5665
08-08-2010, 16:23
Doom wheels only kill monsters. And just charge the think with a ranked unit. It's slower than them now, so its not hard. A unit of slaves can charge it and kill it. Easily. Doomwheels are really easy to deal with and have a fairly specific role to play in the Skaven army.

As for the rest, I said, I was talking about H2H. Yeah, warpfire throwers are good, although mostly just as distracting a shooting unit for a turn. And the 13th spell, well I got nothing there. It was a terrible idea in 7E, and its probably still to hard to cast now to be a serious option. But maybe not, maybe in a month or two I'll be casting it every game.

Heimagoblin
08-08-2010, 16:36
Warfire throwers can shoot into combat involving slaves, doomwheels are ok for 150 points and combined with a ranked unit can swing a combat. PLauge censer beares work fine in the flank, again when supported. Stormvermin work great as do rat ogres. Plently of options.

Bac5665
08-08-2010, 16:46
Warfire throwers can shoot into combat involving slaves, doomwheels are ok for 150 points and combined with a ranked unit can swing a combat. PLauge censer beares work fine in the flank, again when supported. Stormvermin work great as do rat ogres. Plently of options.


Did I say Doomwheels are bad? I said the are easy for an opponent to deal with.

PCBs do ok in the flank. Your fight. Now, you have to get them there, which is no small task, and then, they die on turn two because they will not break the unit turn one, and then they turn to face. So PCBs on the flank are better, but no by a lot.

And, again, stormvermin and rat ogres are a joke. Rat ogres die to a light breeze, are expensive, can't negate ranks or stubborn and aren't even that good at killing compared to other similar units. Stormvermin are empire halbardeers with +1 WS and +1 armor. They have no use in a skaven army except to look cool. They are worse at taking damage than clanrats now, and they are worse at fighting than plague monks. Which is as bad an insult I can give to any combat unit in the game. So at either a defensive or offensive role, stormvermin are terrible. Like Chaos chosen, (or foresaken,) they are a unit that if you take, I take a sigh of relief because it means you aren't trying to build a competitive list.

UDirtyRat
08-08-2010, 16:48
People love bashing the HPA but I honestly haven't seen it perform up to this fearsome reputation.

I've seen 4 games in 8th edition and it only did its points value justice once. 7th ed was much the same story. I fielded it twice in those 4 games of 8th ed and i was a spectator in 2 other games.

The one time it "performed" it ran through about 30 zombies, a varghulf that got too close and 2 wraiths. It rolled quite high for its charge distances.

In the other games.

1st game rolled quite poorly for random movement and only got into combat in the end of the 3rd turn (also amazingly didnt get shot up by a cannon and archers), got bogged down by greatswords for 1 and 1/2 turns before breaking through with 1w left and then got shot by the archers.

2nd game got peppered down to 2 wounds by skinks and then got charged by a steg and died.

3rd game DE shot it up with rxbs and magicked it to finish it off in turn 2.

it did get attention, but it got dealt with pretty efficiently.
it has the ability to output a lot of damage , but there is so much that is random about it, it will fail. random movement, random attack types all of which are random attacks. it can be broken and panicked.

there are horror stories about it. but there are horror stories for a lot fo things.

Ive seen the DE hydra prove much more consistent in 8th edition so far, and for cheaper.

Agoz
08-08-2010, 16:48
Doom wheels only kill monsters. And just charge the think with a ranked unit. It's slower than them now, so its not hard. A unit of slaves can charge it and kill it. Easily. Doomwheels are really easy to deal with and have a fairly specific role to play in the Skaven army.

As for the rest, I said, I was talking about H2H. Yeah, warpfire throwers are good, although mostly just as distracting a shooting unit for a turn. And the 13th spell, well I got nothing there. It was a terrible idea in 7E, and its probably still to hard to cast now to be a serious option. But maybe not, maybe in a month or two I'll be casting it every game.

I'm thinking the dreaded thirteenth spell is the kind of thing the new power scroll common item was designed for, with that item, it really isn't that hard to get off, though you do have to contend with a miscast.

Kevlar
08-08-2010, 17:02
The thirteenth spell isn't that hard to get off without total power now. Throw 6 dice, you only need 21 (+4 for level). I believe 21 is the average roll for 6 dice.

eyescrossed
08-08-2010, 18:12
You could also drop the now obsolete wight king.
But the easiest way to handle the HPA without changing the list is...tarpit it. For God's Sake, you are playing THE tarpit army. Let it run into zombie speedbumb after zombie speedbumb. It won't get the chance to charge something that matters.
Oh, wow. Look what you've done. Changed my list so it can deal with ONE unit in the whole game.

The funny thing is that if I don't do what you're suggesting, I fail when I come up against it. In other words, you're inadvertently saying that I need to tailor my army for HPAs.

Tarpit it? Tarpit it you say? Yep, because I can keep summoning those tiny (ohwait, I could cast a 12+ spell to get more models munched :eyebrows:) units of Zombies and raising them without my opponent dispelling any attempts. I have to throw 2 dice at Raise Dead or Invocation with any caster unless it's the last spell they're going to cast. What, are you suggesting I use 4 or more Power Dice per turn to raise a tarpit that won't actually slow it down?

It kills 6 via Impact Hits and Thunderstomp on average. Even if it doesn't cause ANY OTHER wounds, you'll need to have 13 Zombies to make sure it stays in combat (with ONE Zombie) and doesn't overrun. However, we all know it'll kill at least 3 more Zombies, so you actually need 19 to tarpit it, and that's hoping it rolls very badly.

Thanks for the reliable strategy for THE tarpit army. :angel:



Ah, you are clearly facing a true skaven, as he has the favour of the horned one on his side and thus always rolls 15"/Avalanche/12
In that case...destroy your miniatures, burn your clothing, tear your eyes out and behave like a rat. You might have a chance to survive when the Skaven conquer the world.

On a serious note, sometimes I think people WANT to lose to an Abomination/Horde/Magic/Snotling Base.
Something to think about in the time between the sarcasm you chuck out:

99% of the people defending the HPA are Skaven players.

Kevlar
08-08-2010, 18:16
Something to think about in the time between the sarcasm you chuck out:

99% of the people defending the HPA are Skaven players.

Oh please, every army has a big monster. Skaven had ZERO big monsters for all of 6th and most of 7th edition. Now we get ONE monster and of course our army is OTT. Steamtanks, Greater Demons, Giants, Dragons, Hydras, etc. we had to deal with for years with nothing to really counter. Now you have to deal with one of ours.

Tough!

itcamefromthedeep
08-08-2010, 18:37
Oh please, every army has a big monster. Skaven had ZERO big monsters for all of 6th and most of 7th edition. Now we get ONE monster and of course our army is OTT. Steamtanks, Greater Demons, Giants, Dragons, Hydras, etc. we had to deal with for years with nothing to really counter. Now you have to deal with one of ours.

Tough!
Vermin lords exist. That's 2 monsters. Facts help your case.

---

Dragons, steam tanks and greater daemons have historically been difficult to deal with. However, two wrongs don't make a right.

---

Hey! Wraiths are *great* way to deal with a Hell Pit Abomination, as long as it didn't take Warp-Spikes (I don't think many do). At LD8 a Banshee should do just fine for putting a wound or two on it. It's unfortunate that Wraiths are of questionable usefulness these days.

Also, don't forget about Anvils of Vaul. If that kind of hill comes up, it can be great way to intimidate a Hell Pit Abomination. It's an unreliable strategy in the extreme, but it has already helped me in a number of games.

Korraz
08-08-2010, 20:00
Eyescrossed, are you seriously saying that you can't dish enough Summonings out to deplete the DDs? If so, I might suggest to overthink your playstyle. There is a reason that the middle name of the Vampires was (and to some extend still is) "Total domination of the Magic Phase." Sure, now the Slann have got that, nevertheless is the magic-power of the bloodsuckers still better than that of skaven.

One might also suggest to play some other units suitable for tarpits and sacrifices. Word is, that other armies also have one or two monsters.

Just a little FYI...if the HPA runs into 5 zombies and kills them...it won't kill anything else this turn. Sure, it overruns, but making your opponent place his expensive unit conveniently right behind the soon-to-die unit is not part of it's abilities.


Oh, and what exactly do you plan to do against, say...Steam Tanks, Giants, Hydras, Stegadons, Dragons, Carnosaurs, Ogres, Rhinox Cavalry, Giants, Jabberslythes, Ghorgons, Cygors, Minotaurs, Greater Demons, Demonprinces, Shaggoths, Griffons, Treemen and practically every Named Character out there?


The Rat Demon is Monstrous Infantry, AFAIK. But I didn't look him up in the summary.

itcamefromthedeep
08-08-2010, 21:03
Tarpit it? Tarpit it you say?

...

It kills 6 via Impact Hits and Thunderstomp on average. Even if it doesn't cause ANY OTHER wounds, you'll need to have 13 Zombies to make sure it stays in combat (with ONE Zombie) and doesn't overrun. However, we all know it'll kill at least 3 more Zombies, so you actually need 19 to tarpit it, and that's hoping it rolls very badly.
So, my numbers say that a Hell Pit Abomination averages almost 9 Zombies a turn, ignoring Impact Hits (and a disturbingly similar number of Temple Guard). Impact Hits make it more like 12. So let's say it kills 8 in the Vampire turn, and then 5 more crumble. Then in the Skaven turn it kills 8 more, and 5 more crumble. That means that you would need to raise 26 Zombies in each magic phase to tread water. That's a little over 4 castings on average, or about 8 casting dice each turn. So if The Vampire player rolls well and devotes their entire magic phase (and all the points invested therein) to holding that Hell Pit Abomination, then they should be able to keep it busy (maybe). The Abomination might bring down 50 between castings and wipe out the unit, or it might do nothing and free up that casting for other stuff. Hell Pit Abominations are wonky like that.

None of these scenarios see the Zombies winning.


Just a little FYI...if the HPA runs into 5 zombies and kills them...it won't kill anything else this turn. Sure, it overruns, but making your opponent place his expensive unit conveniently right behind the soon-to-die unit is not part of it's abilities.
5 Zombies is hard to muster without Raise dead (min 20 models in a unit). That plan works with cheap Dire Wolves, though.


The Rat Demon is Monstrous Infantry, AFAIK.LORD no. There's a reason it's also known as a "Greater Daemon of the Horned Rat". Like other Greater Daemons, it's a Monster.

GodlessM
08-08-2010, 21:10
I see a lot of people saying oh the HPA is the only good unit or just shoot/magic it to death. Honestly, I had that attitude too before I played it. Worse still two of them. I was wiping out the Skaven army and had the game won by the end of turn 3 from the looks of it. Then the two of them iped my entire army out. And this guy isn't that great a player, has never beaten me before in the 6yrs we've been gaming together and doesn't take optimised lists aside from his rare selection, but these two things wiped the floor with ease. Though I will bite, it was before I read the Skaven FAQ and realised they actually have to declare charges now.

Screaming Manti
08-08-2010, 21:19
Though I will bite, it was before I read the Skaven FAQ and realised they actually have to declare charges now.

Where does it say that in the FAQ, i might have missed it because of how big it is ;)

I thought it followed the random movement rules out of the BRB so that meant you picked a direction rolled your dice and went that far, if you where to hit a unit you count as charging and they get no charge reaction other than to hold.

Kadris
08-08-2010, 21:56
The abomination has rules in the army book detailing that its random movement into enemy troops counts as charging and they get a charge reaction (including the terror test). The doomwheel is left out of this and looses said terror test benefit for charging.

Flaming attacks negate the hellpit abomination's greatest strength of reviving and a banner to gain those in a unit is 10 points if i remember right.

Skaven can go in hordes, but since they almost never have high armor and ward saves (accept vermin pushing a bell) most units can tear them apart. An example is my unit of 30 clanrats being litterally cut in 1/2 by a single unit of 10 chaos warriors (170 points clanrats vs 190 points khorne warriors w/ shields, i killed 1, he killed 12).

Many bonuses they get derive from having ranks, so flanking them is important. Because many skaven lists involve high numbers you have to actually manuever your troops into advantageous positions for flanking and line of sight restrictions against their warp lightning cannons. Not everyone does this and expects to just rush in, fight it out and win, which is... unwise... against any horde army, especially skaven.

The other day a friend of mine wanted to playtest his skaven list against another guy at the store i visit. The skaven list involved 2 warp lightning cannon, a bell with vermin pushing, 2 furnaces, and 2 small blocks of clanrats. His opponent was dwarves with 2 large units of slayers, 2 organ guns, anvil and quarrelers. The skaven player did not get a single spell off and the storm banner lasted 1 turn. Because the dwarf player used terrain to block the line of sight for the warp lightning cannons they were basically useless and because he also got some good flanking in from manuevering he killed one furnace and almost killed the bell (1 more inch would have rear charged it on an overrun in turn 5). In the end it was a draw.

As for magic being so powerful, the BRB lores have many spells that make the stuff in the skaven lores seem weak. For powerful magic phase armies i look at dwarves who can take multiple dispel runes, steal power dice and gain tons of bonus dispel dice... and orcs/goblins simply because their miscast table is warm and fussy compared the the BRB table.

Skaven have the potential to be "uber" but it depends on the list used, the rolls made (skaven misfire is abundant and horrific), and how the opponent plays against it. So play in favor of your strengths and against your enemies weakness.

Zoolander
08-08-2010, 22:01
Lets not forget the uber weapon skill, ST, TO, and initiative of 3 followed by little to no armor. Oh yeah, super uber until you get into combat. Not to mention the randomness of shooting yourself 1/6 of the time. No they still aren't daemons or dark elves.

Trains_Get_Robbed
08-08-2010, 22:03
Storm Banner, unexplainable (in fluff) high leadership and varability make Skaven hard to deal with. They don't have "cavalry" but the Ogres and giant rats are essentially that, only better.

Heavy hittters?. . . If you don't believe Skaven have heavy hitters your insane. Furnace, Bell, HPA, Doomwheel, R.O, are all heavy hitters.

Skaven are probably the O.P right now up there next to demons mainly because they don't have a real "exploitable" weakness from a list standpoint. One has to be better in flat-out tactics to win, and if it just so happens your opponet is as good or better, then one is very screwed.

*The only weakness that may be presented at any one time could be magic but, is only so to magic exploitable armies: L.M, H.E, D.E and thats it.

Paraelix
08-08-2010, 22:17
how can you prepare to fight a skaven army? every other army has their weak spots, low on machinery, no range, lack of cavallery etc.... skaven got it all...and with the horde rules they got even better...kinda the most versataile army there is

magic - check
artillery / warmachines -check
speed - check
elite troops that can dish out - check
cheap hordes - check
elite characters (rat demon) - check
...?

You're forgetting the most important thing... Not every army list has all of these things. Especially when it comes to "Elite Characters" >_>

Kevlar
08-08-2010, 22:53
The bell unit is not a heavy hitter. The bell itself adds almost nothing to combat and the guy riding it is a pansy with a huge target on his behind. If someone pushed the bell into combat they are incompetent.

Screaming Manti
08-08-2010, 23:06
The abomination has rules in the army book detailing that its random movement into enemy troops counts as charging and they get a charge reaction (including the terror test).

In the skaven FAQ under the amendments section they altered the abominations shambling horror rule. It now has the random movement special rule out of the BRB and it deletes the stuff about the opponent getting a charge reaction.

GodlessM
08-08-2010, 23:09
Where does it say that in the FAQ, i might have missed it because of how big it is ;)

I thought it followed the random movement rules out of the BRB so that meant you picked a direction rolled your dice and went that far, if you where to hit a unit you count as charging and they get no charge reaction other than to hold.

The FAQ removed the paragraph that says they count as charging if they touch off an enemy unit in their move, therefore the only way they can charge is to declare it.

Rochr
08-08-2010, 23:13
I play against Skaven on a regular basis and I have to say that I do not agree with some that they have no heavy hitters. In fact I think they have quite a few dangerous heavy hitters such as 50-60 monks pushing a Plague Furnace for instance. A large unit of Giant Rats with that guy who mutates them (Gnawtooth?) are also pretty damn lethal. Plague Censer Bearers... Yea they die very easy to shooting but they are still very effective against high armoured targets.

Strength of Skaven is that they have cheap hordes, very powerful hitters, war machines (lightning cannon, doom wheel) and other trixy stuff like weapon teams and globadiers.

Not saying they are over the top but saying HPA is fine because Skaven had no hard hitters is nothing short of B U L L C R A P.

NecroMaster
08-08-2010, 23:15
Are you serious? You seem to be saying that the hell pit is balanced but you then go on to suggest people change there list just in case they face one.If people need to tailor any list incase they face one then it is definatly inbalanced. All units have a hard counters, but for the hellpit, the closest you get is flaming cannons and only 1 army has that. Even the banner of eternal flame still leaves you with a t5 monster than puts out, what 3d6 str 6 hits every turn.

Korraz, you go on to suggest tarpiting it. When it kills 10 or so models !18 with crumple) a turn you can't tarpet it except with very very cheap units like, say, slaves. Oh wait, dang there skaven too. You are also relying on the skaven player letting you tarpit it. Lets not forget it has a 360 line of sight for charges so its quite manouverable too. Add to that its very cheap and you'll start to understand why it is perhaps the 2nd best buy in the entire system, perhaps after flamers of tzeentch.

And, a personal tip, if you are playing as skaven and using one I think it would be best not to voice to your opponent your views on this subject as the only thing worse than playing one of these things is having to listen to an opponet telling you its perfectly balanced whilst its stomping your army.

You see, i'm usually quite a calm person and i'm sure you can tell i'm getting anoyed by your claims and this is over the internet discussion whilst I'm on holiday, relaxing and not even playing you and having my beloved stegadon Eyor splatterd!

MUHAHAHA!! Dissention. It's the Skaven way.
Anyways, I never said it was balanced. All I said was, it has a Toughness of 5. With the new lores, which by the way many armies can take, it is more balanced. Isnt it obvious? GW wants everyone to use magic in their armies, excluding Dwarves of course, thats why they made the Lores uber awesome. Thats why I said it's your fault for not taking things that are capable of killing the darn thing. Thats all.

Screaming Manti
08-08-2010, 23:28
The FAQ removed the paragraph that says they count as charging if they touch off an enemy unit in their move, therefore the only way they can charge is to declare it.

But in the same FAQ they say it now has the Random movement special rule from the rulebook. In the random movement special rules they cover exactly how it moves and charges and the fact that you dont get any charge reactions against it.

Paraelix
08-08-2010, 23:56
But in the same FAQ they say it now has the Random movement special rule from the rulebook. In the random movement special rules they cover exactly how it moves and charges and the fact that you dont get any charge reactions against it.

Agreed. You just move into the enemy, they get no reaction.

Kadris
09-08-2010, 00:19
Agreed. You just move into the enemy, they get no reaction.

Vs the doomwheel, they do not.
Vs the Hell Pit Abomination they do because it specifically states in the army book that "If the Abomination's movement is sufficient to take it into an enemy unit then it counts as charging. The target may make a charge reaction as normal, counting the Movement value rolled as the Abomination's maximum charge distance (for purposes of fleeing, standing and shooting, etc)."
This was not FAQ'd out.

Paraelix
09-08-2010, 00:26
Vs the doomwheel, they do not.
Vs the Hell Pit Abomination they do because it specifically states in the army book that "If the Abomination's movement is sufficient to take it into an enemy unit then it counts as charging. The target may make a charge reaction as normal, counting the Movement value rolled as the Abomination's maximum charge distance (for purposes of fleeing, standing and shooting, etc)."
This was not FAQ'd out.

FAQ-
"In addition, ignore the paragraph after the Berserk Abomination chart."

Please read the FAQ thoroughly.

Omens
09-08-2010, 00:30
The FAQ removed the paragraph that says they count as charging if they touch off an enemy unit in their move, therefore the only way they can charge is to declare it.

No random movement means you charge something if your roll is high enough you do not declare and they do not get a charge reaction.

Also now because of random movement neither the HPA or doomwheel actually cause terror in 8th as in forcing panic tests, they just get the immune to terror and fear and cause fear in fear causing foes.

Kadris
09-08-2010, 00:31
oops, you are quite correct! my appologies. However in true skaven form it was not my fault, it was GW's for having a frippin 7 page FAQ.

Maoriboy007
09-08-2010, 01:01
Doesn't the HPA have 4 initiative?
Personally the HPA and the Hydra are a tie, the HPA is pretty mean, but the Hydra is a lot cheaper.

Skaven:
War machines- any army with access to a variety of war machines got a massive leg up, skaven have some pretty good ones.

Cheap troops- High movement & Initiative for no cost. Toughness 3 is pretty common to nearly every army and wacky Ld boost. These guys were built to Horde.

Powerful Magic: nuff said, though for the record I find Gateway and Purple sun more offensive than CotHR.

Tuff Guys: HPA Doomwheel, Rat Ogres and PCBs. Even Stormvermin are perfectlyacceptable elite troops really.
Frenzy doesn't spell doom to PCBs or Plague monks anymore either.

Zoolander
09-08-2010, 01:22
Ok for the record I play 7 armies including Skaven and DE and the hydra is way better than the HPA for the cost. The thing that makes the HPA worse off to things such as hydras is the randomness of it. Other armies have reliable monsters and troops to rely on, skaven do not. Your army could do wonderfully or it could bomb. Everyone recalls how the HPA ate their whole army. They remember how a DW killed their 700 pt daemon in one shot. They don't seem to recall the times when it lost control and starting rampaging through the skavens army or when the skaven player killed more of it'd own models with poison gas. They only recall the time the army did its best.

Paraelix
09-08-2010, 01:26
Ok for the record I play 7 armies including Skaven and DE and the hydra is way better than the HPA for the cost. The thing that makes the HPA worse off to things such as hydras is the randomness of it. Other armies have reliable monsters and troops to rely on, skaven do not. Your army could do wonderfully or it could bomb. Everyone recalls how the HPA ate their whole army. They remember how a DW killed their 700 pt daemon in one shot. They don't seem to recall the times when it lost control and starting rampaging through the skavens army or when the skaven player killed more of it'd own models with poison gas. They only recall the time the army did its best.

I have a regular Skaven opponent, and know another guy who has started fielding Skaven (though I'm yet to play him)... And I have only once, ever, seen a Hellpit careen into it's own troops. Furthmore, in the games I have played against it, I have only ever killed it twice, and only on one of those occaisions did I have fire to prevent it rising again- in the other game it immediately rose back on full wounds.

Despite it's randomness the volume of potential damage, the possibility of returning from the grave, and the sheer terror it inflicts in your opponents more than makes up for it being 60pts more expensive than a Hydra.

NecroMaster
09-08-2010, 01:48
Hahaha! thats awesome. I've never had it revive itself. it's always just straight up died for me.

Screaming Manti
09-08-2010, 01:53
Ive never had it smash into my own units but its random movement has got it killed alot of times. most of the time it gets charged itself because it went too fast and other times it arrives behind my battleline because of low dice rolls for its movement.

I use mine mainly as a fear weapon because my openonents are so scared of the thing and what it could potentionally do they focus everything they have on it letting the rest of my army get close to destroy theirs.

Skyros
09-08-2010, 02:04
I think Skaven have the absolute best warmachine in the game now - the poisonwind mortar.

It's a stonethrower that can move or fire, always wounds on 4+, and allows NO armor saves.

Utterly wrecks high T high armor targets - a single shot can wipe out half a unit with the no partials.

Oh and it has a 4+ ward save :)

And there's no question that the HPA is the most powerful monster in the game - it is paradigm breaking. All other big monsters can be tarpitted, but not the HPA, because he can deal 3d6 S6 hits 2/3 of the time and just smash right through a block of infantry.

He has the killing power of something like 900 points of empire inner circle knights.

Kevlar
09-08-2010, 02:14
I think Skaven have the absolute best warmachine in the game now - the poisonwind mortar.

It's a stonethrower that can move or fire, always wounds on 4+, and allows NO armor saves.

Utterly wrecks high T high armor targets - a single shot can wipe out half a unit with the no partials.

Oh and it has a 4+ ward save :)


Not sure you are playing that right. You might want to read the book. It only uses the small template, and only the very center is wounded on a 4+.

It isn't terrible, but isn't nearly as powerful as the warpfire thrower. Its misfire chart is also rather bad giving the opponent the opportunity to center the template where ever he likes.

Paraelix
09-08-2010, 02:23
4+ for model under hole. 5+ for all others. Good, but not brilliant. Especially when the WFT wounds most foes on 3+ or 2+.

Kevlar
09-08-2010, 02:31
4+ for model under hole. 5+ for all others. Good, but not brilliant. Especially when the WFT wounds most foes on 3+ or 2+.

+flaming, +d3 wounds! WFT is pure skaven goodness.

SilasOfTheLambs
09-08-2010, 03:03
I think the problem with the skaven book is that things that are purportedly unreliable (HPA, doomwheel, doomrocket, brass orb, warptokens etc etc etc) are actually not that unreliable, or else the consequences when they fail are not that bad. A warpfire thrower, for example, is exactly as reliable as one of my (empire) cannons, although admittedly it's pretty drastic when they do fail.

You have to roll triple ones to have a problem with a doomrocket. Should be double 1's.

You have to roll a 1 (on a few attempts, usually) for a doomwheel to have a problem. Should be ok only on a 3+ when wounded.

It's really just things like that, IMO. I don't even remember what makes the HPA have to roll on its table (not the one for dying) but it's so rare I've never seen it happen. The fluff says skaven are so unreliable, where in fact they only have problems on occasions so rare it's silly. If all their upside had a downside of corresponding impressiveness, I'd hate the book less.

Kevlar
09-08-2010, 04:12
I think the problem with the skaven book is that things that are purportedly unreliable (HPA, doomwheel, doomrocket, brass orb, warptokens etc etc etc) are actually not that unreliable, or else the consequences when they fail are not that bad. A warpfire thrower, for example, is exactly as reliable as one of my (empire) cannons, although admittedly it's pretty drastic when they do fail.

You have to roll triple ones to have a problem with a doomrocket. Should be double 1's.

You have to roll a 1 (on a few attempts, usually) for a doomwheel to have a problem. Should be ok only on a 3+ when wounded.

It's really just things like that, IMO. I don't even remember what makes the HPA have to roll on its table (not the one for dying) but it's so rare I've never seen it happen. The fluff says skaven are so unreliable, where in fact they only have problems on occasions so rare it's silly. If all their upside had a downside of corresponding impressiveness, I'd hate the book less.

A lot of things got more reliable with the new skaven book. Verminlord, Doomwheel, HPA all gave the skaven things they never had before, big monsters. The Furnace is better than the bell ever was as far as a close combat vehicle. Even warpfire throwers stopped blowing up spectacularly on *any* misfire result, now they just blow up on 5/6 of them.

Yes the new skaven are much more reliable and as a long time skaven player (4th ed) I am very happy with them now. I quit playing them in 6th because they were horrible and lost all their fun units. Now they are back to where they were in 4th/5th edition a top tier army.

UDirtyRat
09-08-2010, 04:55
Well going back to the core of the thread... are they the uber army in 8th ?

I think they are up there, but they are on equal footing at best.
WoC, Lizards, De and DoC are all up there with them imo

I think the steadfast rule is OTT. I dont think as much of the skaven army should be LD10 stubborn with re-rolls as is.

When you combine that with other things, they can be scary. But putting it into perspective, most skaven steadfast units are just punching bags. and steadfast is not unbreakable, so if you can break the ranks, well you have just knocked 3 off the leadership and steadfast 7 (at best) isnt anywhere near steadfast 10.

I agree with an earlier post, there is too much remembrance of the time a HPA wrecked my army, or the time a WFT incinerated 15 CWs etc. There is plenty of random in skaven left to wreck their good day.

People are still talking about skaven having heavy hitters. I strongly contest the way people are arguing this. They copped a lot of nerfing.

PCBs suck. the combat mechanics have completely nerfed them, they are just suicide squads now with the potential to be easily killed off before doing much damage now. The whole thing before with them was getting the charge, going first and hitting flanks.

rat ogres are good, but quite soft, excellent targets. they too can be belted. a large unit would mitigate this somewhat, but the combo of their LD/softness for points cost/targettability doesnt make it as attractive. they can still do lots of damage, but they wont stay.

GRs... CC nerf.. too soft for points cost now, no survivability... ok against war machine crews, thats it. shooting against war machine crews sucks without poison. i used to use them as a shock troop, loved getting them into CC with light units of all types. so sad.

stormvermin are woeful. i cant help but think i should have spent the points on clanrats every time i take them...

doomwheels are monster hunters now. not as versatile as before.

plague monks are ok. because they are taken in numbers.

when people talk about hitters, you have to remember survivability is so important now in 8th. skaven had great glass hammers combined with their MV5 and 6 in 7th. it was all about maneouvering, setting up a charge or flank, hitting hard and knocking them out, now it doesnt work like that. everyone hits back and units of 5-10 dont cut it against infantry.

as a support attack, sure they can help a bit. but not for their points costs.

when you talk about hitters, you need numbers for the right price or troops that survive. CWs, saurus, dwarves+GWs, GG, maruaders, cost effective knights, bret knights, treekin, phoenix g, black g etc

Thats where skaven fall short. lack of survivable units that can win combat. its their weakness, they have other strengths to compensate. but no GOTO units like these, and thats a decent hole.

top tier, with a whole bunch of others, but not the new DoC by any stretch.

fubukii
09-08-2010, 05:03
Im not sure why everyone states the doomwheel is a heavy hitter. It can kill monsters thats about it. After it charges and its impact hits are resolved its pretty much dead in the water offensive vs anything but monsters.

COTHR is probably the worst big spell in the game, most of the rule book lore final spells are much stronger and easier to cast. (dwellers, final transmuation, purple sun are some examples)

PCB are trash in the new addition due to units holding so well.

Rat ogres are a ok hammer unit if positioned on the flank. Skaven do have good warmachines in the form of PCC and WLC which with thier templates can hurt alot of troops.

Skaven while good are not really op, minus the HPA its mostly a ton of str 3 attacks heading you way in combat.

Also a great way to kill the HPA is take the lore of shadow ( which isnt tailoring because the lore of shadow is great vs basically any army), use the SIg spell to lower its init, then hit it with pit of shades. Game over.



I wonder when ppl will start complaining about WOC armies with super awesome magic, and 5 pt str 5 t3 horde models with frenzy.....

eyescrossed
09-08-2010, 06:40
Also a great way to kill the HPA is take the lore of shadow ( which isnt tailoring because the lore of shadow is great vs basically any army), use the SIg spell to lower its init, then hit it with pit of shades. Game over.
All fine and dandy until you realize it's quite easy to Dispel the signature spell. Anyone you try it on will know what you're trying to do the moment you cast that spell on it.



So, my numbers say that a Hell Pit Abomination averages almost 9 Zombies a turn, ignoring Impact Hits (and a disturbingly similar number of Temple Guard). Impact Hits make it more like 12. So let's say it kills 8 in the Vampire turn, and then 5 more crumble. Then in the Skaven turn it kills 8 more, and 5 more crumble. That means that you would need to raise 26 Zombies in each magic phase to tread water. That's a little over 4 castings on average, or about 8 casting dice each turn. So if The Vampire player rolls well and devotes their entire magic phase (and all the points invested therein) to holding that Hell Pit Abomination, then they should be able to keep it busy (maybe). The Abomination might bring down 50 between castings and wipe out the unit, or it might do nothing and free up that casting for other stuff. Hell Pit Abominations are wonky like that.

None of these scenarios see the Zombies winning.
Exactly what I was saying, but you worded it perfectly.



Eyescrossed, are you seriously saying that you can't dish enough Summonings out to deplete the DDs? If so, I might suggest to overthink your playstyle. There is a reason that the middle name of the Vampires was (and to some extend still is) "Total domination of the Magic Phase." Sure, now the Slann have got that, nevertheless is the magic-power of the bloodsuckers still better than that of skaven.

One might also suggest to play some other units suitable for tarpits and sacrifices. Word is, that other armies also have one or two monsters.
Yes, I am seriously saying that. As itcamefromthedeep said, you need around 8 Power Dice to raise enough to tarpit it, and that's assuming the Skaven player doesn't Dispel anything.

Also, run the math. You can tarpit any of those other monsters with less than 15 Zombies, maybe with the exception of the Hydra.

HPAs break the design paradigm since there's no conventional means of dealing with them. Can you tarpit it? Nope. Can you kill it in close combat? Not without specifically tailoring something towards it or magically having a Chaos Lord with the Hellfire Sword (which would be AT LEAST 100 points more than the HPA, and that's on his own) or a decent combat unit with the Flaming Banner (why would I take it when there are much better options for any of the armies I play? :eyebrows:). Can you blast it with magic? Yeah, I guess. If it's the Lore of Fire and the Skaven don't Dispel the spell, and if it doesn't have Warpstone Spikes which gives it a 5+ Ward save against it anyway. Can you shoot it to death? Dwarfs and Empire can. If they have Flaming (Dwarfs would obviously, but Empire? Not as likely...) and the Skaven player hasn't used the Storm Banner/Howling Warpgale.



Just a little FYI...if the HPA runs into 5 zombies and kills them...it won't kill anything else this turn. Sure, it overruns, but making your opponent place his expensive unit conveniently right behind the soon-to-die unit is not part of it's abilities.
Just a little FYI... Both the Summoning spells have a maximum range of 12". What, are you going to get as close as you can and attempt to Summon a unit in it's face? Remember, it has to be 1" away so you're only ever going to have the HPA a max of 12" from you.

Unless you deliberately move right up to the 12" threshold and attempt to Summon a unit, it will Overrun into you. Hell, it's always possible for it to Overrun into you if it kills any Summoned Zombie unit.



Oh, and what exactly do you plan to do against, say...Steam Tanks, Giants, Hydras, Stegadons, Dragons, Carnosaurs, Ogres, Rhinox Cavalry, Giants, Jabberslythes, Ghorgons, Cygors, Minotaurs, Greater Demons, Demonprinces, Shaggoths, Griffons, Treemen and practically every Named Character out there?
Great question. Nope, not like Steam Tanks can be tarpitted. Ohwait :eyebrows:

Not like Giants have 5 T5 Wounds with no save, and will always die in combat with anything besides Zombies. Nor is it actually possible to magic the thing to death. Ohwait :eyebrows:

Not like Hydras are already considered OP, have less Wounds, can't get MR or come back to life. Not like Stegadons can be tarpitted like other things, or the character on top of them easily killed. Not like Dragons and their riders will always cost over double that of a HPA, and can be tarpitted (again, like other monsters). Not like Carnosaurs don't have Regenerate, and with the rider again cost far more than a HPA. Greater Daemons, though? Not like they're always double the cost of a HPA, can't ever break ranked units or be tarpitted (especially with Challenges). Not like Daemon Princes are perhaps one of the worst units in the game and again cost double that of a HPA, can't break ranks or be tarpitted. Like any other monster. Not like Shaggoths cost more than a HPA and will be run down by ranked units all the time, especially in 8th edition. Not like Griffons don't have a save of any kind. Not like Treemen can be -gasp- tarpitted. Not like named characters are -totally- Monsters and can't be tarpitted with Undead in challenges, or have their other weaknesses such as no immunity to Magic, low saves, low Initiative or hindered movement.

Ohwait :eyebrows:



Oh please, every army has a big monster. Skaven had ZERO big monsters for all of 6th and most of 7th edition. Now we get ONE monster and of course our army is OTT. Steamtanks, Greater Demons, Giants, Dragons, Hydras, etc. we had to deal with for years with nothing to really counter. Now you have to deal with one of ours.

Tough!
Read above.

Rochr
09-08-2010, 06:45
Doomwheel is great against cavalry and elite infantry... basically everything in the WoC/Lizardmen book besides a tar pit of Marauders or Skinks. PCB again are also great against cavalry and elite infantry.

Personally I wonder when people will start complaining about Hellcannons.

Tymell
09-08-2010, 08:20
On the topic of the Hell Pit Abomination, can we take it down a notch? I'm seeing a lot of unnecessary hostility on both sides.

My take: yeah, it is certainly very nasty and perhaps over-powered for it's cost. But I can't bring myself to be as angered by that as some people seem to be.

I don't really mind having certain things in the game that are scary like that, it would remove some of the flavour and fun for me if there was a solid strategy and pattern for everything out there so that nothing ever worried me when I saw it plonked down on the table.

And it'd make a great Mike Walker article: "To kill a Hell Pit Abomination" :D

Maoriboy007
09-08-2010, 08:41
I think part of it is that some armies got to keep thier candy, and in some cases got another bag of lolloes in the bargain, other armies got screwed over. It doesn't help when already poerful monsters got even worse
"not only do I charge 360 but you don't get to flee when I do"
At least the Hydra got reduced to breathing once.

eyescrossed
09-08-2010, 08:59
I think part of it is that some armies got to keep thier candy, and in some cases got another bag of lolloes in the bargain, other armies got screwed over. It doesn't help when already poerful monsters got even worse
"not only do I charge 360 but you don't get to flee when I do"
At least the Hydra got reduced to breathing once.

I'd say "This." but that'd leave me severely below the minimum character count.

Korraz
09-08-2010, 09:32
Ah, I see. So your Skaven really always roll awesome, while everyone else is soooo unlucky.
You do.not.need.to.tarpt.it.in.a.single.unit. Ever heard of the concept of speedbumps? It can only kill a single unit every turn.

And the other Monsters...the price doesn't matter. You still have to handle them. And if you aren't able to occupy a HPA, how on earth are you going to do it with the other stuff?

You don't need to tailor a unit against it. You just need a decent list. Take an everyday empire list. A horde of hellebardiers is viable and more than capable of annoying the HPA for the whole game, as they will never run from it and at least deal a wound or two every round (if the Skaven gets always best rolls, so does everyone else.)

You simply want to lose against it and thus you will.

Thanatos_elNyx
09-08-2010, 09:59
unexplainable (in fluff) high leadership

Skaven are described in fluff as being braver in large numbers, hence the Strength in Numbers special rule.

eyescrossed
09-08-2010, 10:11
Ah, I see. So your Skaven really always roll awesome, while everyone else is soooo unlucky.
You do.not.need.to.tarpt.it.in.a.single.unit. Ever heard of the concept of speedbumps? It can only kill a single unit every turn.
I don't play Skaven, so no, my Skaven don't roll awesome.

And no, my friend didn't roll lucky. It charged a unit of Zombies that Mannfred the Acolyte had Summoned one team game (me and my friend vs 2 of my other friends and Mannfred had the Sceptre de Noirot), which were 12 strong if I remember correctly. He killed 3 with Impact Hits and then rolled Feed, the worst result against RnF infantry, and killed another 3. The Zombies did nothing back. He didn't even need Thunderstomp to kill the whole unit.



And the other Monsters...the price doesn't matter. You still have to handle them. And if you aren't able to occupy a HPA, how on earth are you going to do it with the other stuff?
Maybe it's just me, but I find a Star Dragon easier to deal with than 2 Hell Pit Abominations. A Giant is laughably easy to deal with - I can send a unit of Ghouls against it and bam, it's dead.



You don't need to tailor a unit against it. You just need a decent list. Take an everyday empire list. A horde of hellebardiers is viable and more than capable of annoying the HPA for the whole game, as they will never run from it and at least deal a wound or two every round (if the Skaven gets always best rolls, so does everyone else.)
That'd be useful if I played Empire. Not only that, but how big a horde? If it rolls Avalanche of Flesh, it can get up to 4D6 hits (Impact Hits, Avalanche and Thunderstomp) which is 14 Str6 hits on average. It won't be held in combat for more than 3 combat phases and it doesn't always have to charge the Halberdiers.



You simply want to lose against it and thus you will.
Oh yep, totally. That's why I bother playing - so I can whine on the internet

:rolleyes:

Lord Solar Plexus
09-08-2010, 10:59
From my perspective, Skaven are indeed very, very strong. Of some 20 games, I've perhaps won a single one. Doomwheels, HPA's, PCB's and every other unit in that AB make for an amazingly hard-hitting, fast, extremely resilient and versatile synergistic force that cares not about psychology, morale or shooting and has no flanks.

Korraz, you are mistaken. A horde of Halberdiers will evaporate in two turns or so if it doesn't break immediately. Contrary to what eyescrossed wrote, the HPA can get up to 5 d6 attacks (of which a sizeable number hits automatically).

Rogzor87
09-08-2010, 12:05
First of all For all of you people constantly complaining about how good or bad the HPA is. You can stop posting here plzkthnxbi.

This thread I linked is directly for the HPA so post your crap there.
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266264

2nd of all. I think Skaven are an amazing army, Maybe not as bad as daemons in 7th but are a top 3 army. They have everything except calvary but have high movement to make up for that.

GodlessM
09-08-2010, 12:25
Ah, I see. So your Skaven really always roll awesome, while everyone else is soooo unlucky.
You do.not.need.to.tarpt.it.in.a.single.unit. Ever heard of the concept of speedbumps? It can only kill a single unit every turn.

And the other Monsters...the price doesn't matter. You still have to handle them. And if you aren't able to occupy a HPA, how on earth are you going to do it with the other stuff?

You don't need to tailor a unit against it. You just need a decent list. Take an everyday empire list. A horde of hellebardiers is viable and more than capable of annoying the HPA for the whole game, as they will never run from it and at least deal a wound or two every round (if the Skaven gets always best rolls, so does everyone else.)

You simply want to lose against it and thus you will.

Sorry but this statement is too silly to pass up responding to.

Comparing dealing with a monster that regenerates, can get back up after it dies, and doesn't need line of sight to charge with a Ghorgon or a Dragon who need line of sight to charge is not a worthy comparison. Fact is, he doesn't have to deal with those other monsters if he can throw them a cheap bone and keep his good units out of their line of sight. With the HPA that isn't possible as it just spins on its heel and charges you anyway. Also half of the monsters you listed have no save and when they die they stay dead.

Furthermore, how can you expect anyone to take your argument seriously when you try to convince us with genuine sincerity that this guy wants to lose the game just so he can come on here and moan about it? Aside from the obvious lunacy of saying he wants to lose the game, since when does any Warseerite need an excuse to whine? You're online here enough, you should know people will whine over anything, though the difference in this case is the gay has a very valid point.

Honestly Korraz, tell me, how many times have you faced the HPA, or worse still, faced 2?

itcamefromthedeep
09-08-2010, 12:53
Not everyone does this and expects to just rush in, fight it out and win, which is... unwise... against any horde army, especially skaven.
Some armies can do it. I'd send 24 Saurus against 50 clanrats.


For powerful magic phase armies i look at dwarvesForgive my double-take at that phrase. I never thought I'd ever read something of the sort.


Doesn't the HPA have 4 initiative?
Yes.


Also a great way to kill the HPA is take the lore of shadow ( which isnt tailoring because the lore of shadow is great vs basically any army), use the SIg spell to lower its init, then hit it with pit of shades. Game over.
That works on just about anything, if you can pull off both spells.


I wonder when ppl will start complaining about WOC armies with super awesome magic, and 5 pt str 5 t3 horde models with frenzy.....
Noticed the Marauders too, did you?

I'll need to play against them more before I pass judgment.

eyescrossed
09-08-2010, 13:05
Sorry but this statement is too silly to pass up responding to.

Comparing dealing with a monster that regenerates, can get back up after it dies, and doesn't need line of sight to charge with a Ghorgon or a Dragon who need line of sight to charge is not a worthy comparison. Fact is, he doesn't have to deal with those other monsters if he can throw them a cheap bone and keep his good units out of their line of sight. With the HPA that isn't possible as it just spins on its heel and charges you anyway. Also half of the monsters you listed have no save and when they die they stay dead.

Furthermore, how can you expect anyone to take your argument seriously when you try to convince us with genuine sincerity that this guy wants to lose the game just so he can come on here and moan about it? Aside from the obvious lunacy of saying he wants to lose the game, since when does any Warseerite need an excuse to whine? You're online here enough, you should know people will whine over anything, though the difference in this case is the gay has a very valid point.

Honestly Korraz, tell me, how many times have you faced the HPA, or worse still, faced 2?
Thanks for defending my post. Not as ranty as mine, so it gets the point across better :)


Lord Solar Plexus: I forgot about that, thanks for the reminder :cries:

Korraz
09-08-2010, 14:06
Faced? Once, whith Empire. But I played them. Sometimes two. Often. I won't lie, they won some games on their own. They have the potential to totally wreck stuff.
But they also lost me some games. One game, a HPA decided to stand around and do nothing the whole game. Another time one ran straight into a WLC and killed the crew, which caused half of my army to run away. Another one lost 2 lps to Stand and Shoot-Gnoblars. A giant once clubbed the thing, or it was caught in a big unit, because it only bit one or two heads off, every turn.

What I'm trying to say is: It is good, certainly. It is pretty cheap for what I can do. Could do. It is very random. It might as well do absolutely nothing. And you can handle it, with 5-Zombie-Speedbumps, for example. It can't wheel while running and it has to close the door, so you should be able to keep yourself out of the overrun zone.
That way it might only have one or two chances at all to "charge" something valuable.

GodlessM
09-08-2010, 14:50
Fair enough though honestly I find it hard to be convinced based on one's own usage of a unit. You get a much better view of how a unit is balanced by facing it or watching it in action as a third party I reckon, as the player's own bias or skill level will play too big a part on their opinion. I'm not saying this is always the case, or even that it is the case with your argument in this situation Korraz, but it is common.

BajsArne
09-08-2010, 15:08
The magic feels a bit weak with 8th edition standards...but I guess at least it's easy to cast.

Korraz
09-08-2010, 15:11
I agree. Problem is, that there is no one crazy enough around to convert HPAs, but me ;)
The HPA is certainly good, even too good for the price. But it's not a Purple Sun-shooting-Gamebreaker, as some peoplel describe it.

Lord Solar Plexus
09-08-2010, 15:23
Skaven are not limited to the HPA. There are many good units in that book and the price and synergy are fantastic. When one of my units faces 2-3 units, the individual combatants' skill is less important. When I direct my flaming attacks at the HPA but the regenerating Rat Ogres pounce another part of my line into bloody bits, than that is pretty awesome. At the same time, my Knights are tarpitted and probably handsomely defeated by Slaves while someone jumps behind a brick and pulls out a heavy flamer.

I play against Skaven nearly exclusively and therefore do not really know the capabilities of other armies except on a theoretical level so I shy away from calling them an 'uber-army' but they certainly are extremely difficult to defeat from where I stand.

kramplarv
09-08-2010, 16:16
HPA are at least 150pts to cheap... :)

Bassik
09-08-2010, 17:09
The biggest problem with the HPA is, in my opinion, that an alarming rate of people don't even bother to convert one, but use different monster models with some lame excuse. It's called a proxy, and normally permission should be asked for those things.

Zoolander
09-08-2010, 18:28
Fair enough though honestly I find it hard to be convinced based on one's own usage of a unit. You get a much better view of how a unit is balanced by facing it or watching it in action as a third party I reckon, as the player's own bias or skill level will play too big a part on their opinion. I'm not saying this is always the case, or even that it is the case with your argument in this situation Korraz, but it is common.

I think you get a better idea of the unit's power by actually using it. Playing against it twice and saying it's OP is not as credible as playing 10 games with it, and seeing for yourself.

I agree with others on here saying the HPA MAY do some horrid things but it can also do nothing. The times I've used it are rare, but the few times I have, it hasn't really done much. It's just far too random to be relied on. I've tried to get closer to attempt to charge a unit, only to roll 16" and have the unit safely flee away, leaving the HPA open to a counter charge. I've attempted to charge a steggy for three turns as I rolled horridly low on dice, only to have a 70 pt unit of skinks utterly destroy it in two turns. More recently, I've had the thing redirected safely out of harms way by a unit of marauders. Sure I ate those marauders for lunch but then found myself being rammed in the behind by a unit of chaos warriors who proceeded to rip me a new one. I haven't had great luck with the DW either. It's gotten so bad I've taken the HPA out of my list and took a unit of jezzails and gutter runners and honestly, they are performing better by far.

I may be the only one, but I feel the randomness of the HPA makes it wildly unpredictable. It may do wonderfullly destructive things, but may move 3" a turn and be a big waste of points. You just can't count on it.

As for beating it, it is vulnerable to the same trappings as other monsters. The same ways you beat a hydra will work on the HPA. And the hydra is significantly cheaper and much more reliable.

I think this discussion would be better if we focused on ways to beat the HPA and kept the personal attacks and offensive postings out of it.

GodlessM
09-08-2010, 19:10
As for beating it, it is vulnerable to the same trappings as other monsters. The same ways you beat a hydra will work on the HPA. And the hydra is significantly cheaper and much more reliable.

I think this discussion would be better if we focused on ways to beat the HPA and kept the personal attacks and offensive postings out of it.

Yes but with the Hydra he runs in and does his 7A plus Thunderstomp at S5, not the 2-3D6 of S6 hits plus impact plsu Thunderstomp, and then being stubborn.

P.S. Where have I personally attacked or offended anyone?

Korraz
09-08-2010, 19:15
It's not always Flesh Avalanche, unless there are some serious dark pacts around.

Spinocus
09-08-2010, 20:25
4+ for model under hole. 5+ for all others. Good, but not brilliant. Especially when the WFT wounds most foes on 3+ or 2+.

Yeah but the Poisoned Wind Mortar can begin firing on turn one whereas the WFT usually takes a few turns to get into position so it can get an opportunity to fire. And unlike the WFT the PWM doesn't give you white knuckle nightmares when it misfires (especially when the former is positioned uncomfortably close to friendly units)... ;)

Zoolander
09-08-2010, 20:28
Yes but with the Hydra he runs in and does his 7A plus Thunderstomp at S5, not the 2-3D6 of S6 hits plus impact plsu Thunderstomp, and then being stubborn.

P.S. Where have I personally attacked or offended anyone?

It's random. So at times it could do 2 hits, other times 12 or 14. The hydra always does 7, plus 6 from the two handlers, ALL with hatred, plus a breath weapon. And it doesn't move a random 3d6 inches in a straight line, so setting up those flank charges is almost a given. Overall, I'd be more worried about the hydra than a monster that may only do two wounds in a turn and may not even reach it's intended target and costs 75 pts more. But that's just me.

I wasn't picking anyone out in particular with my comment. A few people here are getting argumentative is all. If you are not one of them, please ignore.

Maoriboy007
09-08-2010, 20:58
I still think that the Hydra is possibly still the best monster for points, but one abomination (heh-heh) is really no excuse for another.

Garr Sledgefist
09-08-2010, 21:31
The Hellpit Abomination is definitely too random to be considered broken. Against infantry, yeah it will probably always win (but doesn't every monster?) whether it charges or not. But failing to charge heavy cavalry by rolling a 5 on 3D6 and then getting charged by that cavalry unit often results in a loss for the Abom for me (no Impact hits, no Thunderstomp, and a result of 1-4 on his attacks usually doesn't cut it). Stubborn is a little cheap for the Abomination (though I fail it all the time). I would have preferred Immune to Psychology (why can an Abomination choose to flee??). As a rule of thumb, if an Abomination breaks part of your line and gets behind you, you're in trouble.

Skaven... uber-army? Nah, that's Daemons of Chaos. Especially in 8th. Skaven might have a wide selection of troops but consider what they have AGAINST them as well (just about the worst misfires, self damaging spells, Doomwheels, decreasing leadership with ranks). It's easy for someone to consider how powerful Skaven are when everything goes their way. Just wait, that Skaven opponent will eventually have one disastrous self destroying game.

Malorian
09-08-2010, 21:36
Skaven... uber-army? Nah, that's Warriors of Chaos.

Fixed it for you ;)


Skaven have it good in 8th, and the abomination is a beast as always, but really it comes down to hunting the general down.

GodlessM
09-08-2010, 21:37
DoC uber-army in 8th? Ah...not really. The Skaven point is obviously debatable, but Daemons lost a lot and gained little while everyone else got in line with them.

Idle Scholar
09-08-2010, 22:07
Yeah just take a look at the Skaven armour saves. With the exception of the rares the H2H units are going in there with 5+ or T4. Skaven do have heavy hitters in the form of Rat Ogreas and PCB's but they can all be knocked out by a light breeze.

itcamefromthedeep
09-08-2010, 22:40
Skaven... uber-army? Nah, that's Daemons of Chaos. Especially in 8th. Skaven might have a wide selection of troops but consider what they have AGAINST them as well (just about the worst misfires, self damaging spells, Doomwheels, decreasing leadership with ranks).
My first game against fantasy Daemons happened the other day. He tapped on turn 4 with one model standing and zero victory points to his name. I'm not willing to call them problematically powerful.

Warriors of Chaos take it to the face a little too hard from the other big contenders for me to call them top dogs. Life-Slann can make Saurus outfight Warriors and use Dwellers to neuter Marauder blocks.

Having said that, it looks like a block of 50 Khornate Marauders with great weapons is a tough nut to crack. That's something we'll all have to look out for now.

Maoriboy007
09-08-2010, 23:16
The Hellpit Abomination is definitely too random to be considered broken.

An unlucky rolls can affect any unit not just the HPA. But its got a lot of built in saftey switches.


Skaven... uber-army? Nah, that's Daemons of Chaos.

For my money Dwarves and WoC will be fighting Skaven for the top spots. Demons are probably second tier now.
*Edit* HE will be pretty nasty too.


Especially in 8th. Skaven might have a wide selection of troops but consider what they have AGAINST them as well (just about the worst misfires, self damaging spells, Doomwheels, decreasing leadership with ranks).

Thats why they're so cheap, and they are still good for the points too. Leadership with Ranks isn't a particular weakness anymore either.
Not to mention a lot of armies have thier own problems as well.


It's easy for someone to consider how powerful Skaven are when everything goes their way. Just wait, that Skaven opponent will eventually have one disastrous self destroying game.

Remove the word Skaven and insert the name of any army into that sentence., it can still apply. Some can get away with it more than others, Skaven do it by being fairly cheap or just plain nasty.


Yeah just take a look at the Skaven armour saves.

No different than most troops out there TBH.


Skaven do have heavy hitters in the form of Rat Ogreas and PCB's but they can all be knocked out by a light breeze.

That would have to be some breeze!


DoC uber-army in 8th? Ah...not really. The Skaven point is obviously debatable, but Daemons lost a lot and gained little while everyone else got in line with them.

Try being undead in 8th!

Korraz
09-08-2010, 23:23
Again, my favourite unit in the game is the breeze that blows ROs and PCBs: Hellebardiers :D

Garr Sledgefist
10-08-2010, 02:38
DoC uber-army in 8th? Ah...not really. The Skaven point is obviously debatable, but Daemons lost a lot and gained little while everyone else got in line with them.

Hmm, well Kairos Fateweaver didn't seem to lose anything, so he did me in quite easily. Haha, oh well, I'll find a way.

And Warriors of Chaos? Haven't fought them in this edition. How well do the Skaven stand up to them? Because it seems unanimous that both armies are considered really good right now.

Screaming Manti
10-08-2010, 02:49
I always like playing WOC with my skaven. Ive found that we have plenty of units that can deal with them plus lots of weapons that ignore armour.

fubukii
10-08-2010, 04:45
Hmm, well Kairos Fateweaver didn't seem to lose anything, so he did me in quite easily. Haha, oh well, I'll find a way.

And Warriors of Chaos? Haven't fought them in this edition. How well do the Skaven stand up to them? Because it seems unanimous that both armies are considered really good right now.

woc steam roll skaven unless they got some good shooting on them.

5 pt horde units with GW and MOK are literally insane. a horde unit of gw mauraders can dish out up to 41 str 5 ws4 attacks..... hitting most skaven troops on 3s and wounding on 2s all for the same cost as a clanrat :)

tough rock solid characters, access to rule book rules.

TheKingInYellow
10-08-2010, 04:50
5 pt horde units with GW and MOK are literally insane. a horde unit of gw mauraders can dish out up to 41 str 5 ws4 attacks..... hitting most skaven troops on 3s and wounding on 2s all for the same cost as a clanrat :)

tough rock solid characters, access to rule book rules.

Unless you lose 25 or so of them to a Doomrocket in turn one, fail your panic check, and then the Will of Chaos reroll, as happened to me last night :)

Your point about having good shooting is well made! I still rolled him in combat when I got there at least.

Rogzor87
10-08-2010, 05:05
woc steam roll skaven unless they got some good shooting on them.

5 pt horde units with GW and MOK are literally insane. a horde unit of gw mauraders can dish out up to 41 str 5 ws4 attacks..... hitting most skaven troops on 3s and wounding on 2s all for the same cost as a clanrat :)

tough rock solid characters, access to rule book rules.

Then for equal points you get 2.5times more slaves who are 5x?? and your marauders will be tarpitted the rest of the game till the templates come and kill them off. Oh and you won't have 41 attacks its more like 21 maybe 23.

Lord Solar Plexus
10-08-2010, 07:27
I've tried to get closer to attempt to charge a unit, only to roll 16" and have the unit safely flee away, leaving the HPA open to a counter charge.


16" is a very good roll and no-one can flee from a HPA.



I've attempted to charge a steggy for three turns as I rolled horridly low on dice, only to have a 70 pt unit of skinks utterly destroy it in two turns.


That must be a new record for bad luck if you were in charge range on that first turn.



I think this discussion would be better if we focused on ways to beat the HPA and kept the personal attacks and offensive postings out of it.

I very strongly disagree. This thread is not about the HPA only. There is already one discussing that particular unit in great depth. Having said this, the fact that this thread is partly a repetition of the other one is proof in itself of the HPA's unprecedented and unrivalled destructiveness.


The Hellpit Abomination is definitely too random to be considered broken.


That makes it unpredictable for any opponent, too. The random movement rule is without a doubt part of what makes it stand head and shoulders above the masses.


no Thunderstomp


It doesn't get TS against cavalry anyways.


Yeah just take a look at the Skaven armour saves. With the exception of the rares the H2H units are going in there with 5+ or T4.

I wish my army had such good stats.

BajsArne
10-08-2010, 08:04
I get the feeling that the disliked things are HPA (especially several) and big slave blocks. I suggest demanding that your opponent have put some effort into building HPAs, and actually painted those 200 slaves.

Lord of Divine Slaughter
10-08-2010, 09:23
...I suggest demanding that your opponent have put some effort into building HPAs, and actually painted those 200 slaves.

So a few spatters of paint is what makes the difference between a cheesy and non-cheese army? :cheese:

kardar233
10-08-2010, 09:28
Nah, it's more of a character test. If someone is taking a Hellpit and has a nicely customized model that shows a lot of work it seems less likely that the controlling player is one of those frustrating cheese-fiends that people rant about. Even if they are fielding it for the power rather than on the niceness of their conversion odds are that the person is going to be more fun to lose to.

Idle Scholar
10-08-2010, 09:34
I get the feeling that the disliked things are HPA (especially several) and big slave blocks. I suggest demanding that your opponent have put some effort into building HPAs, and actually painted those 200 slaves.

I like this rule :)

cptcosmic
10-08-2010, 09:38
the combination of massive shooting and stepping up made the 8. Edition to Warmachine Hammer, that is why some might feel that Skaven are overpowered. While the units are not the best, all the template weapons and magic easily makes up for it.

in 7., if you lost half of your army to shooting, it was not that bad, because you could still get the charge, attack first, kill the front rank and win combat. now if half of your army dies to pretty fire, you then have to face hundreds of cheap units that all can strike back.

Take High Elves for example. They are glass cannons and have only a few units on the table. If they face a shooting army they have no real chance. they lack proper warmachines and the only answer they have against all those template weaponry is magic which costs a crapload of points, which means even less units.

eyescrossed
10-08-2010, 09:48
On a random side-note what I just thought of, what happens if you take the Flaming Attacks banner on one of your units and charge your opponent's unit which has a character with the Dragonhelm/bane Gem, and neither of you know that you have either of those items?

This stems from when we reveal magic items; when they have an effect in the game. Flaming Attacks do **** all against RnF infantry so we wouldn't reveal it then. How, then, would it be approached? Having to reveal that your unit has the banner whenever it gets into combat?

Sorry if this detracts from the main topic at all.

itcamefromthedeep
10-08-2010, 11:37
Unless you lose 25 or so of them to a Doomrocket in turn one, fail your panic check, and then the Will of Chaos reroll, as happened to me last night :)
That's what the Mark of Khorne is for. Immune to Panic.


Then for equal points you get 2.5times more slaves who are 5x?? and your marauders will be tarpitted the rest of the game till the templates come and kill them off. Oh and you won't have 41 attacks its more like 21 maybe 23.I'd put 50 Khornate Marauders against 50 Slaves twice in a row. I don't expect to see them fielded in a unit of 100 so I see little point in talking about such a unit. 2 units of 50 could happen, though.

2 Attacks each (Frenzy) means 20 for the first rank and 20 supporting, with a spare for the Champion. 41 Attacks.


Take High Elves for example. They are glass cannons and have only a few units on the table. If they face a shooting army they have no real chance. they lack proper warmachines and the only answer they have against all those template weaponry is magic which costs a crapload of points, which means even less units.
White Lions and Phoenix Guard (the common elite infantry) are plenty tough against shooting. Great Eagles are common and serve as adequate war machine hunters. I don't think that shooting is as big a blind spot as you do.

GodlessM
10-08-2010, 11:45
woc steam roll skaven unless they got some good shooting on them.

5 pt horde units with GW and MOK are literally insane. a horde unit of gw mauraders can dish out up to 41 str 5 ws4 attacks..... hitting most skaven troops on 3s and wounding on 2s all for the same cost as a clanrat :)

tough rock solid characters, access to rule book rules.

This has not been my experience; I get steamrolled by double Abomination. What's annoying is I never lost to Skaven before this new book and edition.

Bassik
10-08-2010, 14:44
I like this rule :)

It's written in the BRB. In crayon. And it's called Bassik's Rule. But it still counts!

TheKingInYellow
10-08-2010, 15:26
That's what the Mark of Khorne is for. Immune to Panic.


What is that you say?! This was my first game with WoC, so I totally missed that! AGGGGHGHGHGHGH!

Thanatos_elNyx
10-08-2010, 16:05
2 Attacks each (Frenzy) means 20 for the first rank and 20 supporting, with a spare for the Champion. 41 Attacks.

That is only 41 Attacks if all 10 dudes in the front rank get into combat.

StratManKudzu
10-08-2010, 16:34
That is only 41 Attacks if all 10 dudes in the front rank get into combat.

He was suggesting two hordes against each other 10x5 marauders vs. 10x5 slaves. On a different note, who takes a slave champ? :wtf:

Zoolander
10-08-2010, 16:53
16" is a very good roll and no-one can flee from a HPA.

Not literally flee, but "ran away" to safe grounds before I could charge them. And this was in 7th ed when you could flee from Abombs. I did not want to move 16". I wanted to set myself up for a charge the following turn.


That must be a new record for bad luck if you were in charge range on that first turn.

Well, it happens. First turn rolled 5", the next 6". Finally a 10" move. Hooray! Of course, he kept moving away and his little group of skinks followed beside me poisoning me to death.


I very strongly disagree. This thread is not about the HPA only. There is already one discussing that particular unit in great depth. Having said this, the fact that this thread is partly a repetition of the other one is proof in itself of the HPA's unprecedented and unrivalled destructiveness.

I agree - it's not about the HPA only, but Skaven in entirety. My apologies.

But I disagree with you on your assessment. The two threads only prove that the HPA has a very scary reputation (deservedly or not). Remember, people only tend to remember that weird offshoot time when the abomb ate a whole unit. They never recall the times the random movement made it useless the whole game. They don't recall when it beserked into the Skaven player's own unit and ate it. They don't recall it charging into combat, doing pratically no wounds due to it's randomness, losing combat, and being overrun by simple halberdiers. No, they don't recall those. They only remember when it performs superbly. Those people used to complain about the HoDA arrow. "But he killed 14 guys with one arrow!" They don't seem to remember the countless times I rolled a 6, and killed 2. Randomness swings both ways. Yes, it can be horridly destructive. And it can do nothing the entire game. Again, those who really know the abomb will admit the Hydra is actually more destructive because it's reliable. I've taken the abomb out of my list and replaced it with gunner runners and a unit of jezzails and they are far more effective on average. Not always, mind you. But they don't have the super scary reputation of the abomb.



That makes it unpredictable for any opponent, too. The random movement rule is without a doubt part of what makes it stand head and shoulders above the masses.
It's randomness makes it stand head and shoulders above other monsters? I very strongly disagree with you. I still use the DW for monster hunting and believe me, it's not a blessing to move randomly. It's a curse. At no time is having random 3d6 movement a good thing. Never. Moving 12"-14" per turn and rolling 2d6+6 or +7 for charges is far, far, far better. The opponent can always assume the HPA will roll high and compensate.


I wish my army had such good stats.

They don't. Skaven are usually WS3, ST3, TO3, with little to no armor. Oooh, scary!


I get the feeling that the disliked things are HPA (especially several) and big slave blocks. I suggest demanding that your opponent have put some effort into building HPAs, and actually painted those 200 slaves.

That is rather silly. Suggesting a model must be painted to be played with is ludicrous. But I do agree with your sentiment regarding the abomb. I think it's nice (though not mandatory) when someone does customize their models, especially those that are not released in any form. Just like it's nice (though not mandatory) when someone spends the time to paint an entire army, paying attention to all the little details.


I'd put 50 Khornate Marauders against 50 Slaves twice in a row. I don't expect to see them fielded in a unit of 100 so I see little point in talking about such a unit. 2 units of 50 could happen, though.

2 Attacks each (Frenzy) means 20 for the first rank and 20 supporting, with a spare for the Champion. 41 Attacks.

50 Khornate Marauders with GWs are not 100 pts though. ;) You'd be facing one unit of slaves in the front, and at least one to either side.

When using the horde rule, do you include models that are not in base to base with other units? If not, then you would not get 41 attacks. Closer to 37. If you get all the models in the unit, then you'd have 61. I don't have any horde units, so I only glanced over that rule and it's never come up in game. Correct me if I'm wrong. :shifty:

Korraz
10-08-2010, 18:36
Who would use a Slave-HORDE anyways?! They can't kill anything.
20 Marauders with flails, well, flail the crap outta the slaves.

Justice And Rule
10-08-2010, 19:06
Who would use a Slave-HORDE anyways?! They can't kill anything.
20 Marauders with flails, well, flail the crap outta the slaves.

Tarpit. They're cheap and numerous, and if you have a character nearby you can keep them going for quite a while. It's not a completely broken tactic, but it's certainly interesting if your opponent has nothing to flank it or take out the nearby leader.

Korraz
10-08-2010, 19:47
Sure. But a Barbarian Horde (hurr hurr, see what I did there?) smashes through Slave-Tarpits, eventually. What's more imporant: They aren't tarpitting Knights or Trolls.
I'm not entirely sure right now. Do you need more rank bonus, or simply ranks (like, up to 20 slave ranks) than your opponent to remain steadfast?

Thanatos_elNyx
10-08-2010, 21:02
Yeah Slaves should only be 5 wide, so that less enemy are available to kill them and means you have more ranks for Steadfast.

Maoriboy007
10-08-2010, 21:08
Well, it happens. First turn rolled 5", the next 6". Finally a 10" move. Hooray! Of course, he kept moving away and his little group of skinks followed beside me poisoning me to death.

So why not charge the skinks instead?


But I disagree with you on your assessment. The two threads only prove that the HPA has a very scary reputation (deservedly or not). Remember, people only tend to remember that weird offshoot time when the abomb...

I could say that about my entire VC army, I raise like two models in the magic phase and my heros firght like night goblins. Then I get that one golden game where everything goes awesomely...like Robert Mulhoon said in Jurassic Park "they remember"



They don't. Skaven are usually WS3, ST3, TO3, with little to no armor. Oooh, scary!

Like 50-60% of the warhammer world you mean? Skaven also do it cheaper and get high initiative and and movement in the bargain.

Bac5665
10-08-2010, 22:21
Like 50-60% of the warhammer world you mean? Skaven also do it cheaper and get high initiative and and movement in the bargain.

Much less than 25% of models actually used in games are WS3, S3, T3. At least one of those being 4 or higher is much, much more common.

Stats of 3s are not average in warhammer, and haven't been since around the time of the OK book. 4s are average. 3s are bad.

grumbaki
10-08-2010, 23:07
Please, have This (http://bahairants.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/irony-meter.gif), good sir.


On topic...Skaven have weaknesses. Break the rangs. Kill the ASB, kill the general. Do the same thing, you do to the killy stuff of other armies. Use your brain, this is a Wargame after all!

You didn't mention any weaknesses there. You just gave generic advice that would work against any army. The point that the OP was making was that using those tactics is harder against skaven because of their strengths.

1. Break their ranks. I guess you mean by killing lots and lots of them. So is their weakness that they are most str-3 t-3 as-5+? Completely average and there are alot of them.

2/3. Kill the general/bsb. Sure, the heroes arn't tough and that is a weakness. I'd give you that, but untill you kill them (and that is assuming that the skaven player doesn't keep them out of combat) they are making the army really hard to break.

4. Use your brain. Ok, so you are faced with many horde units, where most of them will be stubborn LD 10 with re-rolled break tests until you can hack away their ranks. Backing them up is the storm banner so your templates won't work until they reach you, and they've got good magic and arguably the best monsters in the game. Sure, they can be beat, but that isn't the point. The point is that their strengths make them much harder to beat, than other armies when using a balanced list that is not designed to play against them.

Really, just saying "use your brain" is not only demeaning, but lazy.

ospriet
10-08-2010, 23:44
i actually quite like the current skaven rules - think they're really characterful.

bearing in mind i've not played an actual game of warhammer for 5 years, i reckon i'd probably try a cheeky flier or two to sort out war machines, some infiltrating skirmishers to threaten flanks, and as much fast cavalry as i could get. then its a case of making a hole somewhere in the battle line with shooting and piling through. :D

i think i'd deal with a HPA by simply ignoring it.

GodlessM
10-08-2010, 23:51
bearing in mind i've not played an actual game of warhammer for 5 years, i reckon i'd probably try a cheeky flier or two to sort out war machines, some infiltrating skirmishers to threaten flanks, and as much fast cavalry as i could get. then its a case of making a hole somewhere in the battle line with shooting and piling through. :D

i think i'd deal with a HPA by simply ignoring it.

I added emphasis in bold; it shows when you read the rest of the post :p but welcome back.

ospriet
10-08-2010, 23:55
I added emphasis in bold; it shows when you read the rest of the post :p but welcome back.

yeah from reading these boards over the last week the game seems to have changed a mindblowing amount since 6th edition. i'm basically going to get thumped when i start playing again aren't i? :(

Kevlar
11-08-2010, 00:00
You didn't mention any weaknesses there. You just gave generic advice that would work against any army. The point that the OP was making was that using those tactics is harder against skaven because of their strengths.

1. Break their ranks. I guess you mean by killing lots and lots of them. So is their weakness that they are most str-3 t-3 as-5+? Completely average and there are alot of them.

2/3. Kill the general/bsb. Sure, the heroes arn't tough and that is a weakness. I'd give you that, but untill you kill them (and that is assuming that the skaven player doesn't keep them out of combat) they are making the army really hard to break.

4. Use your brain. Ok, so you are faced with many horde units, where most of them will be stubborn LD 10 with re-rolled break tests until you can hack away their ranks. Backing them up is the storm banner so your templates won't work until they reach you, and they've got good magic and arguably the best monsters in the game. Sure, they can be beat, but that isn't the point. The point is that their strengths make them much harder to beat, than other armies when using a balanced list that is not designed to play against them.

Really, just saying "use your brain" is not only demeaning, but lazy.

You already know their weakness. They have crap all leadership when flanked. Get them on the flank and they are steadfast on a rerollable 5. Whoopie! And once skaven turn tail they never rally. Plenty of dirty tricks to reduce leadership. You only have to break them once unike just about every other army in the game except goblins. From what I read plenty of new lores have spells to single out the enemy characters, and skaven characters are again comparable to goblins. So pretty easy to take down.

Maoriboy007
11-08-2010, 00:20
Much less than 25% of models actually used in games are WS3, S3, T3. At least one of those being 4 or higher is much, much more common.
Stats of 3s are not average in warhammer, and haven't been since around the time of the OK book. 4s are average. 3s are bad.

3 stats are fairly common, Empire and Brettonians, The majority of undead, Goblins all have stats in that general area (especially non-special units)
Anything with better scores in those stats usually costs a lot more than the average skaven, and Skaven do get decent initiative and Movenent in the bargain plus SiN.

The armies that do have better stats in those areas (for cost) , notably Elves Dwarves and Chaos, are the ones directly competing with skaven for the top spot.

GodlessM
11-08-2010, 00:22
yeah from reading these boards over the last week the game seems to have changed a mindblowing amount since 6th edition. i'm basically going to get thumped when i start playing again aren't i? :(

Lol if this thread has shown you anything it is to just play Skaven and you'll be fine ;)

itcamefromthedeep
11-08-2010, 03:57
Sure. But a Barbarian Horde (hurr hurr, see what I did there?) smashes through Slave-Tarpits, eventually. What's more imporant: They aren't tarpitting Knights or Trolls.
I'm not entirely sure right now. Do you need more rank bonus, or simply ranks (like, up to 20 slave ranks) than your opponent to remain steadfast?Ranks, of at least five models.


That is rather silly. Suggesting a model must be painted to be played with is ludicrous.That's not ludicrous at all. It was GW policy at their stores for a while. Armies tended look a lot better, I'll tell you.



50 Khornate Marauders with GWs are not 100 pts though. ;) You'd be facing one unit of slaves in the front, and at least one to either side.
I don't think I've ever seen 3 units of 50 slaves fielded. In any case, 3 hordes would be remarkably difficult to maneuver into position. Deploy that on a table with terrain and you begin to see how difficult it will be to work with large numbers of horde units. It's not unreasonable for the Marauders to fight Skavenslaves piecemeal in many games (particularly when they don't actually get to be Steadfast).

The size of enemy units will indeed limit the number of Attacks that Marauders will bring. Against any horde unit all 10 files would be able to attack. 10x 20mm bases is obviously 200mm, or 8x 25mm bases, plus 2x more for corners. Against a unit of elves 5-wide it's only 6 Marauder files fighting for 25 Attacks including champion.

soots
11-08-2010, 04:57
Skaven definately top army imo.

Hardly lost at all against them in their previous book. Havent beaten them since (and ive won all my other games).

HPA and slaves are the 2 biggest issues. I just get bogged down by 2pt guys that are slightly slightly worse than my 5-6pt guys.

fubukii
11-08-2010, 07:39
Then for equal points you get 2.5times more slaves who are 5x?? and your marauders will be tarpitted the rest of the game till the templates come and kill them off. Oh and you won't have 41 attacks its more like 21 maybe 23.


vs a 5 wide unit you would get 6 25 mm models, with GW and MOK you would dish out 25 str 5 attacks hitting on 3+ wounding on 2+ killing about 14 skaven pper round of combat, thats alot of bodies and the skaven will not hold long taking that kind of abuse.

Thanatos_elNyx
11-08-2010, 09:09
True but this is why the Skaven have the Warpfire Thrower :evilgrin:

CauCaSus
11-08-2010, 09:29
Wow, I wonder where your opponents get their HPAs who can slaughter entire armies on their own. Mine barely live past turn three.

eyescrossed
11-08-2010, 10:52
Wow, I wonder where your opponents get their HPAs who can slaughter entire armies on their own. Mine barely live past turn three.

What armies do you face?

yabbadabba
11-08-2010, 11:35
That's not ludicrous at all. It was GW policy at their stores for a while. Armies tended look a lot better, I'll tell you. Of course its ludicrous. You don't need painted models for a great game.

~PrometheuS~
11-08-2010, 14:00
Who would use a Slave-HORDE anyways?! They can't kill anything.
20 Marauders with flails, well, flail the crap outta the slaves.

As a skaven player i wouldnt use a slave horde, i dont see it as being viable, sure its cheap, but you have this massive weak block of troops just bottle necking more important troops, at 3k points, i already have issues with deployment lol, 6x4 arent big enough!!!

Slaves are just combat res, even if you did bog someone down and flank them, they would still most likely kill enough slaves to win combats anyways

Tower_Of_The_Stars
11-08-2010, 14:39
Theads like these are, by and large, what keeps me from browsing the Warhammer general discussion forum. I have started again recently but this thread alone is enough to dissuade me for some time.

eyescrossed
11-08-2010, 14:50
Theads like these are, by and large, what keeps me from browsing the Warhammer general discussion forum. I have started again recently but this thread alone is enough to dissuade me for some time.
You should try 40k General :P

Kevlar
11-08-2010, 16:29
50 slaves 5 wide 10 deep works great. Steadfast on ld 10 and you can throw warpfire templates into whatever they are tar pitting with impunity. Horde no. 10 deep? I field two or three units of them with hand weapon and shield for the ward save in close combat. 125 pts and they die a little slower than naked slaves.

Zoolander
11-08-2010, 17:19
So why not charge the skinks instead?

Because I wanted the stegadon which was worth 5x that unit of skinks, and expected to roll high enough to charge the steggy. Sure, I could have charged the skinks. But then his stegadon would be long gone. That's what he was hoping. But after three turns of trying to charge and failing, the skinks had there way with me.


I could say that about my entire VC army, I raise like two models in the magic phase and my heros firght like night goblins. Then I get that one golden game where everything goes awesomely...like Robert Mulhoon said in Jurassic Park "they remember"

Sure, every army can claim that. The difference with Skaven is the degree to which that pendulom swings. Skaven have a greater tendency to do outrageously well or fabulously bad, more so than any other army. So hence, when they shoot something with the Doom Rocket and it destroys a whole unit, you hear more moaning and crying about it. They never recall when you rolled terribly and blew up your own unit with it. No matter how bad you roll with your vampires, they don't blow up their own unit.



Like 50-60% of the warhammer world you mean? Skaven also do it cheaper and get high initiative and and movement in the bargain.

Goblins, Empire, Elves, and Brets are in that category. Goblins have Orcs and Fanatics, Brets have an army of knights, and Empire have heavy armor and knights, Elves have hatred or ASF plus very high WS and I and movement. So are VC, but they are also unbreakable, cause fear, and can be rezzed like crazy. Ogres, Dwarfs, Lizards, WoC, Beasts, etc. are all TO4. Skaven are TO3 with poor LD and... well that's about it! These other armies you speak of have other abilities and/or units in their core choices to make up for TO3. Skaven simply have numbers. I'm not saying they are weak, as numbers are a great thing. But let's not say they are OP simply because of numbers. Slaves fight as poorly as zombies, only they aren't unbreakable, don't cause fear, can't be rezzed, easily break and then NEVER rally. So, it's a trade off. We move a little faster, and have some fun, quirky units, and outnumber the enemy. Effective? Yes! OP? Mostly, no.

madden
11-08-2010, 17:51
Skaven arnt op my last game they sucked hard and got whipped by Orcs and gobbos, my plauge preist blew up and killed 3/4 of his plauge monks slowing the furnece right down and wounding it my posion winds killed more of my troops than there's and the only units that worked were queek in clans with bsb and my plauge claw it's sad that a unit of 6 rogres were beaten then run down by night gobbos. So skaven can perform but can also fluff big time I have a hpa but don't offtern use it as to random for my liking.

Maoriboy007
11-08-2010, 21:23
Because I wanted the stegadon which was worth 5x that unit of skinks, and expected to roll high enough to charge the steggy. Sure, I could have charged the skinks. But then his stegadon would be long gone. That's what he was hoping. But after three turns of trying to charge and failing, the skinks had there way with me. ..
So it was more a case of bad luck not being able to charge the steggy, or that the skinks were actually a higher priority target in the end, not that the HPA is particularly bad or anything.


[ The difference with Skaven is the degree to which that pendulom swings. Skaven have a greater tendency to do outrageously well or fabulously bad, more so than any other army..

Not particularly, and 8th has given them a massive boost really.


[ So hence, when they shoot something with the Doom Rocket and it destroys a whole unit, you hear more moaning and crying about it. They never recall when you rolled terribly and blew up your own unit with it. .

Because the odds greatly favour you blowing up the entire enemy unit, especially if you don't get greedy.


[No matter how bad you roll with your vampires, they don't blow up their own unit. [/COLOR].

Thats the price for getting war machines, I'd gladly take the risk for a piece of that action.
I'd have to say that in my experience for VC,characters not doing well in either combat or magic is an equal equivalent.


Goblins, Empire, Elves, and Brets are in that category.
Goblins have Orcs and Fanatics, Brets have an army of knights, and Empire have heavy armor and knights, .

Of those , only an Empire gunline should really worry skaven.Skaven have rat ogres, weapons teams, stormvermin etc.


Elves have hatred or ASF plus very high WS and I and movement. .

Indeed, Elves (except maybe woodies) look to do very well out of this edition. They do fall into the category of elite armies though.


So are VC, but they are also unbreakable, cause fear, and can be rezzed like crazy. .

Undead are unstable (beleive it or not it makes a big difference) , fear is nearly worthless now and rezzing has been greatly reduced with the changes to the magic phase. VC are much more baseline than they were in 7th edition, and thats ok but lets be honest about that here.


Ogres, Dwarfs, Lizards, WoC, Beasts, etc. are all TO4.Skaven are TO3 with poor LD and... well that's about it!

Skaven High Initiative and Movement and and are cheap, dont forget cheap!
WoC and Dwarves are probably contenders for the top right next to Skaven, LM depend on the Slann. We'll have to wait until the dust settles.


These other armies you speak of have other abilities and/or units in their core choices to make up for TO3.

Skaven are fast and Cheap...did I mention Cheap?
SiN is nothing to shake a stick at either.


Skaven simply have numbers. I'm not saying they are weak, as numbers are a great thing. But let's not say they are OP simply because of numbers.

I don't know if they are OP, but they are certainly up there with the other armies. Skaven have more than just numbers, great warmachines , decent monsters (including one of the best in the game) powerful magic.
Its a bit too early to say they are uber or OP but I think Skaven do have a lot going for them.


Slaves fight as poorly as zombies, only they aren't unbreakable, don't cause fear, can't be rezzed, easily break and then NEVER rally. So, it's a trade off.

Slaves actually fight better than zombies one on one and as stated its not peaches being undead in this edition.


We move a little faster, and have some fun, quirky units, and outnumber the enemy. Effective? Yes! OP? Mostly, no.

I think its a little more positive than that, but for the most part I can agree with that, time will tell.

itcamefromthedeep
11-08-2010, 22:22
Of course its ludicrous. You don't need painted models for a great game.
Float that to your local tournament organizer. See if they're willing to remove presentation scores from their events. If painting is no big deal, it shouldn't be a hard sell.

Players can have fun games with models that look like trash. You could have fun using nothing but markers instead of models. However, a venue requiring that models look better than trash isn't exactly "ludicrous". The organizers might simply cater to a group of discerning players.

---


Skaven arnt op my last game they sucked hard
Anecdotal evidence isn't all that helpful. If you want to expand your contribution to the conversation, tell us what made that game difficult to win. Talk about where your chances were slim and where you had an uphill battle.

yabbadabba
11-08-2010, 22:27
Float that to your local tournament organizer. See if they're willing to remove presentation scores from their events. If painting is no big deal, it shouldn't be a hard sell. Why care about tournaments? They aren't the only way to get a good game.


Players can have fun games with models that look like trash. You could have fun using nothing but markers instead of models. However, a venue requiring that models look better than trash isn't exactly "ludicrous". The organizers might simply cater to a group of discerning players. People are entitled to play how they want. If a venue insists on painted miniatures then so be it - but that has nothing to do with playing the game, and nothing to do with having a good game.

Korraz
11-08-2010, 22:48
It has. I had some good games, with and against unpainted miniatures. But two painted armies on a battlefield with good terrain, that's already an awesome experience and it makes the game indefinitely more fun. At least for me.

Kevlar
12-08-2010, 00:14
I can't stand playing against some lazy kid with the primered horde.

kramplarv
12-08-2010, 00:30
I happily played with nothing but nice squares of whatevery you make nice squares with. :) models are secondary to the game for me. (at least it was in earlier editions. now the whole TLOS makes it tricky :D)

Kevlar
12-08-2010, 01:15
I happily played with nothing but nice squares of whatevery you make nice squares with. :) models are secondary to the game for me. (at least it was in earlier editions. now the whole TLOS makes it tricky :D)

I saw a website that had some kids playing warhammer with index cards that just had what was in the unit written on top.

scurrious
12-08-2010, 03:11
I don't know what some of you guys are talking about. Skaven are not OP. Honestly, if any army SHOULD be cheesy it's us rats. sure we CAN get ld 10 rerollable break tests on any unit we want if we take a lord choice, but so can a lot of others. I mean, undead are all UNBREAKABLE!


Just the other day my HPA got shot to death on the first turn by two dwarf cannons with rule of burning. No, it didn't roll get back up!

I don't even want to talk about his marauders chopping up my slaves while all my flamethrowers blew themselves up (except for the warpfire cannon, that got killed by his Hydra [it used "came from below" I never even had a chance to shoot it!]. hatred on 7 attacks is just cheesy).

my stormvermin were worthless. They're actually really unreliable. They got WASTED by his swordmasters (reroll misses!).


Anyway, all my guys died, even the ROgres, who totally lost to the other guy's snotlings even though I charged him in the Flank.


I honestly just gave up when Teclis IF purple-sunned my other HPA.

Kirasu
12-08-2010, 04:00
Slaves are drastically overpowered.. They can protect your flank with 13 ranks as it doesnt matter if you get flank charged.. LD 10 stubborn woo. Dont really *need* heavy hitters as again just tarpit a unit with slaves and then shoot it

Just spam slaves and you'll see how crazy powerful skaven is. Add 15 pt engineers for LD8 (+3 ld due to ranks) if you think you'll be out of range of the general.

Maoriboy007
12-08-2010, 04:14
I mean, undead are all UNBREAKABLE!

Actually its more accurate to say they are unstable, I just wish they got the benefit of steadfast.


Slaves are drastically overpowered.

That remains to be seen, they are very good at thier cost, honestly goblins should have it so good. But its really the combination with funky skaven weapons and general cheapness that makes the army particularly poerful. Like I said I'll wat a couple of months before I label skaven as THE OP army (which is longer than VC got ;) )

eyescrossed
12-08-2010, 11:56
I don't know what some of you guys are talking about. Skaven are not OP. Honestly, if any army SHOULD be cheesy it's us rats. sure we CAN get ld 10 rerollable break tests on any unit we want if we take a lord choice, but so can a lot of others. I mean, undead are all UNBREAKABLE!


Just the other day my HPA got shot to death on the first turn by two dwarf cannons with rule of burning. No, it didn't roll get back up!

I don't even want to talk about his marauders chopping up my slaves while all my flamethrowers blew themselves up (except for the warpfire cannon, that got killed by his Hydra [it used "came from below" I never even had a chance to shoot it!]. hatred on 7 attacks is just cheesy).

my stormvermin were worthless. They're actually really unreliable. They got WASTED by his swordmasters (reroll misses!).


Anyway, all my guys died, even the ROgres, who totally lost to the other guy's snotlings even though I charged him in the Flank.


I honestly just gave up when Teclis IF purple-sunned my other HPA.

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.

On your comment about being Unbreakable... Well, I'd rather be Ld10 Stubborn with a potential reroll than one of only 2 armies in the game who can have half a unit wiped out without taking any casualties to enemy attacks.

kardar233
12-08-2010, 11:59
Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.

On your comment about being Unbreakable... Well, I'd rather be Ld10 Stubborn with a potential reroll than one of only 2 armies in the game who can have half a unit wiped out without taking any casualties to enemy attacks.

3 armies. Both undead armies are unstable and Daemons have Daemonic Instability.

Bassik
12-08-2010, 12:13
If slaves are so awesome now... are goblins this as well then?

GodlessM
12-08-2010, 12:20
Just the other day my HPA got shot to death on the first turn by two dwarf cannons with rule of burning. No, it didn't roll get back up!

I don't even want to talk about his marauders chopping up my slaves while all my flamethrowers blew themselves up (except for the warpfire cannon, that got killed by his Hydra [it used "came from below" I never even had a chance to shoot it!]. hatred on 7 attacks is just cheesy).

my stormvermin were worthless. They're actually really unreliable. They got WASTED by his swordmasters (reroll misses!).

Anyway, all my guys died, even the ROgres, who totally lost to the other guy's snotlings even though I charged him in the Flank.

I honestly just gave up when Teclis IF purple-sunned my other HPA.

I'd love to know the name of this army that has Dwarf Cannons, Marauders, Hydras, Swordsmasters, Snotlings, and Teclis all in one :rolleyes:

eyescrossed
12-08-2010, 23:41
3 armies. Both undead armies are unstable and Daemons have Daemonic Instability.
Daemonic Instability is nowhere near as crippling as Unstable, and wasn't even as bad as the standard Crumbling rules. That's why I didn't count them.



If slaves are so awesome now... are goblins this as well then?
If Goblins were 2 points, yes.

Maoriboy007
12-08-2010, 23:44
3 armies. Both undead armies are unstable and Daemons have Daemonic Instability.


Daemonic Instability is nowhere near as crippling as Unstable, and wasn't even as bad as the standard Crumbling rules. That's why I didn't count them..

Amen to that, my undead armies would give thier left testicle for Demonic Instability...if it hadn't already rotted off.

"and the nobel prize for most unpleasant image goes to....." :)

eyescrossed
12-08-2010, 23:51
Amen to that, my undead armies would give thier left testicle for Demonic Instability...if it hadn't already rotted off.

"and the nobel prize for most unpleasant image goes to....." :)

Okay, that's the first time I've physically shuddered in years.

CauCaSus
13-08-2010, 15:47
If Goblins were 2 points, yes.

And have SiN

fubukii
13-08-2010, 18:34
And have SiN

Why does SIN even matter in this comparison? It brings them up to ld5 which is roughly the same ld as a goblin. In addition you can get ld9 rerollable with your goblins which is pretty much unbreakable as well.. Goblins also can get Banners, Nets and fanactics

Bassik
13-08-2010, 18:36
So the weedy slave has become the unspeakable horror, eh? I'd be more worried when people start bringing out a bucket of weaponteams, especially firethrowers and mortars. But you go right ahead attacking those slaves, yes-yes, tasty target, are they not?

Quasarcq
13-08-2010, 19:25
I've had some decent luck with my full unit of gutter runners (15), with poison and slings, which they can still move and shoot. being able to march, get within 9" and sent out 30 shots that hit on 5s and poison on 6s is just too tempting. And with the new scout rules I can deploy them really close to enemy lines. especially against small elite armies. PWGs can march and throw too. Skirmishers for skaven seem to have turned into missile units, at least for me.

As to weapons teams, I have been deploying them since I've had the army, the doomflayer took a nerf as it hits on initiative now, not bad in most cases, but the WFT and the mortar can be very devastating.

Being able to pick a starting point for cannons makes the WLC far more dangerous. I've used it to kill characters that dare to travel alone.

Basic clan rats got a boost with step up and steadfast. although ogres got tough against skaven with impact and stomp attacks. better have more ranks!

My biggest complaint is the special weapons rules. Storm vermin come with hand weapon and halberds... so... they carry a weapon they will never use? Why take shields? just for shooting, huh? meh. storm vermin would be far better with just hand weapon shield most of the time.

lately I've been playing against ogres, VC and WoC... so I have actually forgotten that my BSB is a storm banner since I haven't gone up against a shooty army in so long, HA! I've done better againts VC in 8th, can ruin a WoC's day with my skaven weaponry, but still have trouble with ogres even with the change to fear rules.

Overall I would say yes, skaven have got a boost in the new edition... but does that make them better? Not too sure. And no, I still haven't fielded a HPA yet.