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kyussinchains
08-08-2010, 14:04
Thought experiment.....

which race would make the best 2k army.... the only stipulation being that you must include at least one unit of every type available in the book, and if possible, at least one of every character type.....

how feasible is it, which army do you think would be the most effective and which would be the least, or are they all equally bad?

please back your assertions up with at least something... ;)

Sandals
08-08-2010, 14:08
Goblins.

assuming you're allowing this destinction, they're about the only ones who could make it work!

Lord Malorne
08-08-2010, 14:11
OP: What do you mean by one unit of every type? Every unit in the book or things like, one infantry, one cavalry, etc.

EmperorNorton
08-08-2010, 14:16
Ogres can do it, but it'd be a bit all over the place, probably not very effective.
Bretonnians can do it, and I think it'd be viable.
Wood Elves can do it, if you forego the Treeman Ancient. Wouldn't be very playable, though.

That's the ones I cared to check, I think the other armies I have all have too many choices for you to be able to take every unit at 2000 points.

stainawarjar
08-08-2010, 14:18
All units at minimum cost in an Empire is 1560 points before characters if my calculations are correct, I think most armies can do it it you don't include all character types and special characters. That Empire army wouldn't be too horrible I guess.

kyussinchains
08-08-2010, 16:09
OP: What do you mean by one unit of every type? Every unit in the book or things like, one infantry, one cavalry, etc.

I meant every unit entry

eyescrossed
08-08-2010, 18:16
You'd need a bit more than 2000 points...

Jetty Smurf
08-08-2010, 18:44
If you don't include mounts for chars (and therefore no carnosaur, as it can only be taken as a mount), Lizardmen, using minimum unit sizes for all units comes to 2210 points total. This, however, is not a legal list, as there's not enough core.

Smallest legal list you can make, with every unit choice (again, not including mounts) seems to be 2640. Feel free to double check this. But I'm pretty sure it's right. Darn stegadons!

SamVimes
08-08-2010, 19:02
Brettonians can legally do it. Chaos Dwarves can without the mounts. Dark Elves can do it without the mounts. Kislev can easily do it ;). Tomb Kings can barely make it without the casket.

That's it.

edit: This is with all generic character options.

zerorocky
08-08-2010, 19:36
I added up the books for Empire, Dwarfs, Ogres, and O&G. Empires and Dwarfs are disqualified for having too many rare points, 575 and 535 respectively.

Ogres total 1137 points without characters. Orcs and Goblins total 1018 points without characters.

Any upgrade option that created a whole new unit, like Big 'Uns and Fanatics, were counted.

Jetty Smurf
08-08-2010, 20:11
Ooooh, that reminds me, I forgot I could put a krox in a unit with skinks, thus removing a chunk of points from special.

The new minimum for Lizardmen (if my calcs are correct) is 2421. Rounding up the core req to 606 (605.25 is the exact number).

Still a long way off, but better than nothing. ;)

Duke Georgal
08-08-2010, 20:16
Lizardmen or Bretonnia probably. Interesting conjecture.

Jetty Smurf
08-08-2010, 20:33
Lizardmen or Bretonnia probably. Interesting conjecture.

So.... you decided not to read my post then?

Good for you.

This post adds as much to the discussion as yours does. :rolleyes:

Duke Georgal
08-08-2010, 22:05
So.... you decided not to read my post then?

Good for you.

This post adds as much to the discussion as yours does. :rolleyes:

I am afraid I did not understand your post or the point you are trying to make.

Could you possibly edit it to make it clear?

Thank you.

Paraelix
08-08-2010, 22:12
So.... you decided not to read my post then?

Good for you.

This post adds as much to the discussion as yours does. :rolleyes:

And instigating a flame war will do wonders for everybody...

pililuk
08-08-2010, 22:13
Anyone considered daeomns if you disregard characters

CaptainOtter
08-08-2010, 23:26
Tomb Kings seem pretty easy. A decent selection of units and no over the top characters. If you want to put in a casket it might start getting tricky, but other than that everything seems fairly manageable.

solkan
09-08-2010, 00:59
Every single unit entry in the book for Chaos Daemons is 6266 points, 4756 points of which would be characters (8 different lords, eight different heroes), 550 core, 490 special, and 330 rare. That's all without unit upgrades or options.

If "every unit entry" is supposed to exclude the Heroes and Lord section, buying the 13 mandatory units takes 1370 points and the rare unit composition is terrible:
3 flamers
a lone beast of nurgle
a lone bloodcrusher
a lone fiend of slaanesh
The remaining rare budget is 170 points, and enough points to be just short of practical with flamers, bloodcrushers or fiends.

If you had a 750 point rare budget (3000 points), you could get:
6 flamers
3 bloodcrushers with full command
3 fiends
1 beast of nurgle
and then you'd only be wasting one beast of nurgle.

For the specials and core, the problem isn't as bad. 300-400 points to pad out nine units doesn't go very far, though, and you'd only have two plain heralds at that budget.

My verdict: No entertainment value at 2000 points.

However, raising the army size to 3985 buys:
1 450 point lord (plain greater daemon without options, choose 1 of the 4)
1 herald of Slaanesh, plain
1 herald of Khorne, plain
1 herald of Tzeentch, plain
1 herald of Nurgle, plain
1 4x5 block of daemonettes with full command
1 4x5 block of horrors with full command
1 4x5 block of plaguebearers with full command
1 4x5 block of bloodletters with full command
1 mob of 10 furies
1 2x5 block of flesh hounds
1 2x5 block of seekers with full command
1 unit of 5 screamers
1 unit of 3 blood crushers with full command
1 unit of 6 flamers
1 unit of 3 beasts of nurgle
and while that's "One of (most) everything" at a decent size, no chaos icons or daemonic gifts are included in that 3985. :( But it does actually fit into the 8th edition percentages...

tiekwando
09-08-2010, 01:11
Min HE runs 2250 exactly. Of course its not legal with only 320 pts core. Of course if you could drop the dragon mage you could get close with 420 pts of core at 2000.

Jetty Smurf
09-08-2010, 09:09
I am afraid I did not understand your post or the point you are trying to make.

Could you possibly edit it to make it clear?

Thank you.

Assuming no special characters and no character mounts (no carnosaur or engine of the gods), below is the smallest legal list (ie 25% core) that includes every single unit and character type in the Lizardmen book. This list is not set in stone, as the numbers for the skinks/saurus/krox can be changed, but it fulfills all the requirements set by the OP (except it's more than 2k).

Lords

Slann
Oldblood

420

Heroes

Skink Priest
Scar-Veteran
Skink Chief

205

Core

36x Saurus Warriors
17x Skinks
1x Kroxigor (part of the skink unit)
10x Skink Skirmishers
1x Jungle Swarm**

606

** - Jungle Swarm is 45 points, but does not add to core total for % purposes and therefore was not included in the 606 total for core points, though does add to the final total.

Special

10x Temple Guard
5x Cold One Cavalry
5x Chameleon Skinks
3x Terradon Riders
1x Stegadon

Rare

1x Salamander Hunting Pack
1x Razordon Hunting Pack
1x Ancient Stegadon

425

Total - 2421

smithers
09-08-2010, 10:38
Tomb Kings can do it for 1978 pts as follows. This would be a great-looking army, and playable except for the weakness of zero protection on the Heirophant. You'd probably spend the remaining points on great weapons for the king/prince and maybe buy the heiro a mount and try to keep him out of range.

501 pts Core:
22 Archers w champ
5 Light Horsemen
5 Heavy Horsemen
1 Tomb Swarm
3 Chariots

472 pts Specials:
10 Tomb Guard
3 Carrion
3 Ushabti
1 Scorpion

310 pts Rares:
1 Bone Giant
1 Catapult

280 pts Heroes:
1 Tomb Prince
1 Tomb King
1 Icon Bearer (BSB)

415 pts Lords:
1 Liche Priest
1 High Liche Priest

chivalrous
09-08-2010, 15:57
...Dark Elves can do it without the mounts...

The best I can find for Dark Elves (without mounts) is 2055. Remember that Harpies and Assassins don't contribute towards percentage requirements or limits.

Lords: (365)

Supreme sorceress
Dreadlord

Heroes: (270)

Master
Sorceress
Death Hag

Core: (500)

10 Spearmen
10 Crossbowmen
17 Corsairs
5 Dark Riders

Non contributing core (145)

5 Harpies
Assassin (regardless of which unit he goes in, the assassin does not contribute to that sections percentage limit)

Special (500)

5 Executioners
5 Witch Elves
5 Shades
5 Cold One Knights
5 Black Guard
Cold One Chariot

Rare (275)

War Hydra
Bolt Thrower

SamVimes
09-08-2010, 16:36
I missed the death hag when I did it. :(

enyoss
10-08-2010, 17:01
I think you can get one of each unit for High Elves for around 2250 (excluding mounts of course, but including the Dragon Mage). I was shocked that it didn't come to more to be honest. This list would be utter tripe though in gaming terms.

kyussinchains
10-08-2010, 19:37
okay, so let's take a different tangent with this, using 1 and no more of every unit in the book, how many points do you need to make a reasonable army....

I'm asking this as I'm thinking of getting me some vampire counts and wood elves mainly because I adore the models, so I'd like to have a unit of everything in the list, however I'll be getting the armies as a collector who would like to use them for the occasional game and don't want to HAVE to have multiple units. It made me wonder if armies based around all the options available are awful ideas in general.....

Jetty Smurf
10-08-2010, 21:16
okay, so let's take a different tangent with this, using 1 and no more of every unit in the book, how many points do you need to make a reasonable army....


I'll be honest here. I am actually a little bit confused with what you mean here.

As far as I can tell, you are asking what is the minimum points required for a reasonably competitive army (ie with equipment and extras for characters etc) whilst still taking 1 unit of everything. But in that same army have no more than 1 unit of everything?

I think, for most armies, that double ups are essential for some units, especially considering the task at hand. That is, creating a 2.5k+ (in the case of lizardmen, at least) army list, that is "reasonable" with only 1 of each unit. As far as I see things, this would lead to big deathstar-ish units for core, since you need a lot of them to make the list legal. It would be interesting to play a game where everything EXCEPT core was limited to 1 unit per, but including core in that, imo, makes it very difficult.

It is indeed possible, but I probably would hesitate to call it a "reasonable" army, in terms of playing. And playing is what we are talking about it, with reference to points. In terms of collecting, you are free to do as you please, as indeed you are for creating a list, but you still must adhere to the army list rules (the %'s) and here lies the biggest problems.

As for an actual answer to the (perceived - as I am not 100% sure this is what you were asking) question (I was getting to it eventually) I think for lizardmen in particular, it would be close to 3k points.

For Wood Elves and Vampire Counts I am unsure. The wood elves I have not looked at since 8th (not because of their changes, but because 8th has re-ignited my passion for LM :D), and for VC, I don't have the book or know the army well enough to input (sorry).

If no-one else does, before I am back online tomorrow, I will post my thoughts on the Wood Elf side of things after I have a look through the book and work out whats what in relation to the thought experiments outlined above.

kyussinchains
11-08-2010, 07:29
what I am asking is basically, if I want to collect one unit of each type available in an army book (not necessarily minimum sized, 20 or so infantry models typically) will that be enough should I decide to play with them?

for example with dark elves, I could take a unit of 25 spearmen, 20 crossbowmen, 25 corsairs and 5 dark riders which would be one core unit of each type and is approximately 750 points, so I could comfortably get a 3k army out of it....

I would have thought that wood elf wise, a unit of 20 eternal guard, 20 glade guard, 16 dryads and 5 glade riders (assuming they are core) would easily be over 500 points.... is that not correct? (I don't have the book so can't confirm)

Misfratz
11-08-2010, 08:33
what I am asking is basically, if I want to collect one unit of each type available in an army book (not necessarily minimum sized, 20 or so infantry models typically) will that be enough should I decide to play with them?Well, of course, you don't have to necessarily play with all of your models in every game that you play.

The thread has shown that, for many armies, if you had one of every unit in the army book you would have more than enough points for a 2000 point army, but you would have to choose which specials and rares you took for each particular game.

Given the relative number of army book entries in Core and Special/Rare this isn't a particularly surprising outcome if you are seeking to not collect/paint multiple Core units.

I would think that this approach would work fine for most armies. Most armies have a number of units that are similar on the battlefield, so a certain amount of replication and redundancy is built in to the list.

So to take the example of Wood Elves, there are Warhawk Riders and Glade Riders, which are both rapid units that can shoot a little. Or Dryads and Wardancers which are both skirmishing combat units. Glade Guard, Scouts and Waywatchers lie on a spectrum in terms of shooting/scouting.

Kulgur
11-08-2010, 17:46
I think Dogs of War would go quite an impressive amount over 2k :)