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Gazak Blacktoof
08-08-2010, 19:04
Has anybody had a good experience with The Watchtower scenario from the 8th edition rule book?

I ask because my friend and I played a 2000 point game of Orcs Vs Empire this afternoon, and we decided that my black orcs in the watchtower were impossible to shift. It appears that the army with the most elite infantry unit will almost certainly win, unless it gets blasted by magic, which was his plan in our game. As it turned out, there simply weren't sufficinet turns for him to remove my orc archers and blast my black orcs from the tower before the game ended.

I'm sure that if I had been playing agaisnt high elves, my black orcs would have been in a similar predicament to his greatswords.

Screaming Manti
08-08-2010, 19:19
Ive too had this situation. My skaven were against high elves and on the second turn a unit of 25 swordmasters with a bsb (banner of the world dragon) killed there way into the watchtower. My army had literly nothing to deal with them as its mainly combat based. It was still a fun game but we both knew that i couldnt possibly win the game now.

Im glad it happend though as it made me rethink my army and the fact that i need some shooting either from weapon teams or warmachines.

Brady
08-08-2010, 19:24
I dont like it, there should be an amendment so that only one unit from your army roster can claim the tower, it would be more interesting. I played the watch tower with my high elves against mixed god daemons, i slaughtered everything of his apart from eight plague bearers and a herald and he killed about ten sea guard. So he had no VP and i had many but because he had the tower he won. I could not take the tower because ten sea guard raiders will do jack against him! Im not ranting i just think the victory conditions are t loose to be fair.

Caladin
08-08-2010, 19:35
The watchtower scenario in my opinion has a similar role to the blood and glory scenario: it requires a balanced army list. I play wood elves and have a unit specifically designed to handle the watchtower, just as I have standards just for blood glory.

Urgat
08-08-2010, 19:37
Played it two days ago, it was fun, and my goblin archers managed to push back a large unit of marauders with a chaos warrior general. He managed to keep them out and then a 6 was rolled so the game ended, but I was quite ready to pummel the tower with my doomdiver and my rock lobber till my gobs could kick them out again.
People got to understand that those scenarios and the fact they're randomly chosen forces you to make lists that can deal with them all. You got to have standards for the blood and whatever scenario, well, you also got to take some heavy shooting and hard hitting stuff for the tower. There's no army that doesn't have the stuff to do so.

edit: ninja'ed by Caladin, who managed to say it more clearly than I did too :p

Gazak Blacktoof
08-08-2010, 20:44
I agree that you need to build units to take account of the new scenarios, but I'm sure that there are certain matchups that ensure your planning is for nothing. I thought my friend did well in our game to have a good sized unit of greatswords with characters in so that he cold make an attempt on the tower. Unfortunately there was little that unit could do about my unit of black orcs with characters that had already occupied the tower.

The only way to shift my unit was to batter it with spells. His cannon had already misfired and the steam tank was tied up with goblins, then got thumped with club and turned to scrap.

I would be in a similar situation if the tower was occupied by chaos warriors or elf elites. They would strike before my orcs and kill most of the assault party before they strike. Even if you can win the combat, the preseence of a nearby BSB wil reduce your chance of shifting the unit to next to nothing. I think this issue of survivability is compounded by the ease with which the defender can switch one unit out for another during their own turn.

ewar
08-08-2010, 21:43
I haven't had a chance to play the scenario yet - but I did have a game yesterday where 10 skink cohort held a building assaulted by Black Knights for 2 turns - if skinks could be beaten, I dread to think what it's like trying to get elites out. I would probably sit back and try to magic the thing to death.

Paraelix
08-08-2010, 21:52
well, you also got to take some heavy shooting and hard hitting stuff for the tower. There's no army that doesn't have the stuff to do so.


WoC. Where is my shooting?

I have always hated the rules for buildings... I don't feel they have ever gotten them right.

However, this is exactly the same scenarioas the switch to 5th ed 40K. The game is different now and you have to create your army to deal with a range of scenarios. Just thankful that any units can claim objectives and not just Core :P

It is interesting though that all the battle reports I've read have the defender being annihilated except for the tower and winning because of it.

GodlessM
08-08-2010, 22:10
Haven't had a chance to play it because every time I play a game when we roll for scenario my opponents always ask to leave out the Watchtower because it is too one-sided, so that has to mean something.

TrojanWolf
08-08-2010, 22:25
My last game was Watchtower, and it turned out pretty much the same way.

Skaven v Skaven, I sent my stormvermin to hold the tower and left the rest of my army to deal with the enemy. I was feeling pretty confident too, what with a unit of 40 plague monks with furnace in my army. First turn went to the enemy, and my furnace got destroyed by the enemy doomwheel. The rest of my army then proceeded to be destroyed by 60 death frenzied clanrats led by Queek Headtaker, leaving me with my Priest, most of his plague monks and the stormvermin who got attacked by enemy plague monks. In spite of suffering an embarrassing six casualties to only one kill, the stormvermin held on and won me the game.

Undoubtedly, I was losing out on attrition. If the game were to go on, I would have been looking to flank the enemy plague monks with my own and trying to thin out his numbers with Plague.

The scenario really does hinge on who can get their elites there first, since trying to dig a unit out of a building is a task in itself. I'm wondering how things would have gone had gutter runners with poisoned attacks been holding that building instead of stormvermin...

Bac5665
08-08-2010, 22:34
Nope, never had a good experience. Its one of several scenarios that just help some armies over others.

~PrometheuS~
08-08-2010, 22:44
Us Skaven players cant just cracks call the tower? and destroy it :confused:

DDogwood
08-08-2010, 22:54
I would be in a similar situation if the tower was occupied by chaos warriors or elf elites. They would strike before my orcs and kill most of the assault party before they strike.

I have to double-check the rules on this, bit don't both assault parties still get the "step up" rule? So having elite elves doesn't necessarily mean that the other guys don't get to strike back.

I can see how powerful combat characters would be really good at tower defense, though. You'd either need stronger characters or a ridiculous weight of attacks to shift them out of the tower.

Screaming Manti
08-08-2010, 22:57
Us Skaven players cant just cracks call the tower? and destroy it :confused:

Yeah, or deafening peals from the screaming bell! I think Skaven are the only army that can destroy the watchtower.

Odin
08-08-2010, 23:16
Only played Watchtower once - it was great and in came down to the very last combat of the game. My Warriors of Khorne took the tower in turn two, and it took four turns of combat for my opponent's warboss and black orcs to kill them, leaving just the warboss on one wound controlling the tower. Then I charged my two remaining chaos knights in, killed the warboss, but couldn't take the tower because they're cavalry.

Brilliant game, but I can see how it could be one sided if one of the players doesn't have elite infantry.

Incidentally, the FAQ says that if the watchtower is destroyed, the winner is the person closest to the ruins. But I can't find any rules which cover buildings being destroyed. So, are there any rules for destroying buildings?


I have to double-check the rules on this, bit don't both assault parties still get the "step up" rule? So having elite elves doesn't necessarily mean that the other guys don't get to strike back.

Yes, you are correct - you pick 10 people to fight the combat, but if some of them are killed before they strike you just step up as normal.

Paraelix
08-08-2010, 23:18
All 10 models from either side always get to fight, unless the attacks of the other party have diminihsed their unit below the 10 model count of the assault team OR if there was a character/unit champ/whatever that is killed by challenge.

Arkh
09-08-2010, 01:02
You know what army can't handle the tower scenario?... Bretonnians. Mounted units dismount + the peasants can't fight.

There is no way to shift some units out of a tower with Bretonnians. At least no consistent ways.

I play Bretonnians and just accept the fact that I have a disadvantage going into that scenario. Likewise, my friend that plays WE accepts the fact that he has a disadvantage in the Breaking Point scenario.

Minsc
09-08-2010, 01:08
Watchtower is a poorly thought out scenario with heavy balance issues.

Some armies simply cannot claim it easily enough to have a chance of winning, (if at all) while some armies will have a field day and deloy some though core units wich will keep the tower for the entire game. (I'm looking at you Chaos Warriors!)

Paraelix
09-08-2010, 01:14
You know what army can't handle the tower scenario?... Bretonnians. Mounted units dismount + the peasants can't fight.

There is no way to shift some units out of a tower with Bretonnians. At least no consistent ways.

I play Bretonnians and just accept the fact that I have a disadvantage going into that scenario. Likewise, my friend that plays WE accepts the fact that he has a disadvantage in the Breaking Point scenario.

I'm fairly certain Knights may still attack the tower, they simply cannot move into it afterwards. And you needn't be inside the tower to claim it.

Arkh
09-08-2010, 02:46
I'm fairly certain Knights may still attack the tower, they simply cannot move into it afterwards. And you needn't be inside the tower to claim it.

Yes indeed they may attack the tower. However, they have to dismount in order to do it. Losing the mount attacks + the save bonus. Makes Bretonnian knights charging a tower pretty useless... Best they could charge in there would be 10+ Grail Knights and even they would have trouble taking it.

sulla
09-08-2010, 03:55
I think it would work better if you could assault the watchtower from multiple flanks per phase. Or if the core unit couldn't willingly leave it. I played vs Vc who moved the core unit out and garrisoned it with 20+ grave guard. WS6 with the +1 to hit banner, great weapons and constant lore of beasts buffing (thanks mostly to my crappy dispelling) plus reraising made them impossible to shift with just one unit. You just can't do enough damage to crumble them by more than 2 or 3.

Multiple assaults would allow attrition to take it's course more speedily.

Lord of Divine Slaughter
09-08-2010, 05:33
Watchtower is a poorly thought out scenario with heavy balance issues.

Warhammer is a poorly thought out game with heavy balance issues ;)

But in fact Watchtower is probably one of the most balanced scenarios, as both armies have an equal chance of getting the tower. From then on, its just about the carnage, and the challenge of taking the tower :)

Satan
09-08-2010, 05:44
It's also about preventing the enemy elites from taking the tower, as people sometimes seem to forget.

I had a blast defending the tower with a small unit of blessed chaos chosen with halberds and frenzy banner IIRC. A ghorgon charged the tower and found himself facing 40 S 5 attacks...

Urgat
09-08-2010, 06:48
WoC. Where is my shooting?

Hellcanons, you know, the best artillery in the game? :p Should be pretty good at it too (S10? Panic?). Besides, you don't need shooting, you have troops that can kick anything out of the tower.



You know what army can't handle the tower scenario?... Bretonnians. Mounted units dismount + the peasants can't fight.

There is no way to shift some units out of a tower with Bretonnians. At least no consistent ways.

I play Bretonnians and just accept the fact that I have a disadvantage going into that scenario. Likewise, my friend that plays WE accepts the fact that he has a disadvantage in the Breaking Point scenario.
But yeah, I agree for bretonians, they can bunker around the tower when they defend, but if they aren't the defenders, they got to rely too much on the trebuchet (but I notice you don't even mention the trebuchet. D6 S10 hits should be able to thin down any elite).

stashman
09-08-2010, 09:11
Did I miss something when I read thru the posts?

Frenzy in buildings! Just force him out with a small unit of low points. Frenzied troops are forced to leave buildings.

Skaven can have a though time staying in a building, they don't get rankbonus to leadership.

And you can only have a Core unit of 20 models in there, and the only time it may not leave the tower is in the first turn.

Have you guys played it wrong?

Odin
09-08-2010, 09:34
Yes indeed they may attack the tower. However, they have to dismount in order to do it. Losing the mount attacks + the save bonus. Makes Bretonnian knights charging a tower pretty useless... Best they could charge in there would be 10+ Grail Knights and even they would have trouble taking it.

Trebuchet should do a decent enough job of killing everyone inside, if it's occupied by elites. Questing Knights might be worth a try, if you have a big unit of them. Magic can do a pretty good job of weakening the occupying unit as well. But yes, I do see the problem.

But does it matter? If my chaos army comes up against bretonnians in a watchtower scenario, we both know that I have the advantage. So while the main victory conditions remain the same, I know that a win for me is just average, anything less than a massacre is at best a minor victory. And if the Bretonnian player does win, it will be a spectacular achievement to be remembered for years to come.



Frenzy in buildings! Just force him out with a small unit of low points. Frenzied troops are forced to leave buildings.

Good point, though you'll probably need a -Ld banner or spell to give you a good chance of baiting them out.


And you can only have a Core unit of 20 models in there, and the only time it may not leave the tower is in the first turn.

My opponent didn't have a Core unit small enough, and because the attacker automatically takes the first turn I got my warriors in there - so he got no advantage from "controlling" the watchtower at the start!

Von Wibble
09-08-2010, 10:20
WoC. Where is my shooting?

It is interesting though that all the battle reports I've read have the defender being annihilated except for the tower and winning because of it.

WOC don't need shooting for this scenario - you have 2 units that are made for this scenario, Chosen and Forsaken. Chaos Warriors also have a good chance of beating pretty much anything that tries to assault them if it comes to it - the only unit that is favourite to beat them off the top of my head is swordmasters.

As to why the defender is often massacred apart from the tower - its probably because a high portion of their points is invested in taking the tower and they are therefore at a points disadvantage on the rest of the board.

Personally I'd have liked a scenario which incorporates the watch tower but doesn't guarantee victory if you hold it - say a bonus of G/4 victory points to the army holding it instead (where G is the size of the game, so a 500 point bonus in a 2000 point game etc).

Crovax20
09-08-2010, 10:46
I didn't like it either, I played it with my night goblins against Lizardmen. I couldn't even deploy anything in the tower because all my core units are larger than 20 and thus my opponent got to field stuff in it. He took them out as soon as his templegaurd+slan were at the tower and placed those in it.

Now you try flushing that out of the tower with just night goblins. My only real chance were squigherders and well they got blasted apart before they could get to the tower. So I sat there throwing 10 goblins at temple gaurd, and lost the game. Even though I destroyed everything else of him on the field but a unit of skinks with kroxigor. I simply could not shift his temple gaurd.

Paraelix
09-08-2010, 11:12
Frenzy in buildings! Just force him out with a small unit of low points. Frenzied troops are forced to leave buildings.


Units are never forced to leave buildings except via panic and breaking from combat. Please read the rules.

As to the comment on shooting. I was responding to a comment that stated "all armies have access to heaps of shooting to kill things in towers"... This is not the case. Furthermore, a single warmachine that costs 205pts is not feasible as "heaps of shooting" or indeed feasbile for inclusion in any army. I don't use one... Nor should I be expected to. I was merely pointing out that the comment was ridiculous.

Bishop5
09-08-2010, 11:23
I've played a couple of games with it; last one was the best (Dwarf + OK vs DE + WoC)
Came down to the last turn of the game, with my Dwarfs bouncing off the Warriors with Halberds in the Watchtower then my team-mate's (highly depleted via purple sun) Ogres charged in and finished off the Warriors, then the game ends!

N1AK
09-08-2010, 11:35
I've played Watchtower a couple of times now and they've been good games. Having a big block of Elite infantry is certainly a bonus, although it's not the only way to win the scenario. Like the other scenarios it is something you need to factor into your army design, some builds will really suffer if the player doesn't account for this.

Sandals
09-08-2010, 11:40
i've not played it yet, mainly cos i don't have any building terrain pieces...

Zilverug
09-08-2010, 12:42
Would it help to install a neutral elite infantry force in the watchtower that has to be ousted from it first? This should help somewhat against "who gets his elite unit in first will probably win".

Arkh
09-08-2010, 12:53
Trebuchet should do a decent enough job of killing everyone inside, if it's occupied by elites. Questing Knights might be worth a try, if you have a big unit of them. Magic can do a pretty good job of weakening the occupying unit as well. But yes, I do see the problem.

Yeah, those were the first things that came to mind for me as well. Here are the problems.

Trebuchets: IF they hit, it's only D6 hits on the unit. Substantially lower than when they're out in the open. Whoever decided templates were only d6 hits on units in building was smokin something... Templates should be the counter to units in buildings.

Questing Knights: After dismount, losing the shield + striking last... They are going to sustain heavy losses only have a 5+ save.

Magic: Really the only legitimate answer. And considering how poor Bretonnian magic is, that is a sad statement.

Even after all of that though, I don't have a problem with the scenario though. I just know that I have to fight an uphill battle.

Urgat
09-08-2010, 14:44
As to the comment on shooting. I was responding to a comment that stated "all armies have access to heaps of shooting to kill things in towers"... This is not the case.

What? You responded to me, and you're like totally reinventing what I said. Please read my post again. And people wonder why sometimes I need to be reminded to calm down :wtf:
As for the hellcanon, nothing forces you to take it indeed, but don't say its inclusion isn't feasable for inclusion in any army (?), it costs 205pts, then it can fielded in any army of 820 points and up. That's pretty manageable, and for the panic test only it's probably worth its points. Especialy in that scenario, mind.

Lyynark
09-08-2010, 15:00
Trebuchets: IF they hit, it's only D6 hits on the unit. Substantially lower than when they're out in the open. Whoever decided templates were only d6 hits on units in building was smokin something... Templates should be the counter to units in buildings.

Remember that all hits are resolved at the higher strength (if the building is under the hole). So a dead on hit from a trebuchet will cause D6 S10 hits doing D6 wounds... ouch.

Gazak Blacktoof
09-08-2010, 16:54
My bad, I missed the step-up rules applying to building combats.

That would increase the attrition losses, but given that you almost certainly have to wipe the unit out and also prevent it doing a switch with another unit it is still an insanely hard scenario to win if a large or elite unit gets in there. Frankly, if my black orcs got to the point where they were going to get wiped out, I'd have just substituted them for my unit of trolls, who went off and did their own thing because I knew I could hold the tower.

I think that being able to chose the assault parties is a terrible rule. This enables you to keep a batle standard in the building safe. Hell, assuming you strike after your opponent, you can even use the step-up rule to allow characters to attack without risk of death if you have a suffiently large unit. Cheeky.

Odin
09-08-2010, 16:56
Units are never forced to leave buildings except via panic and breaking from combat. Please read the rules.


How about you read the rules yourself?

p127 "Abandoning a building"


A unit that is frenzied or is otherwise forced to charge, still cannot do so if it is in a building - it must instead exit the building as close as possible to the enemy instead of charging.

So, if you fail your restraining test, frenzied troops are forced to leave the building, just as stashman said.

Odin
09-08-2010, 17:01
Hell, assuming you strike after your opponent, you can even use the step-up rule to allow characters to attack without risk of death if you have a suffiently large unit. Cheeky.

Yeah, I noticed that rather nasty loophole. We will have to houserule that only non-characters can step up - if you don't name a character at the start of a combat he cannot fight.

N1AK
09-08-2010, 17:02
Hell, assuming you strike after your opponent, you can even use the step-up rule to allow characters to attack without risk of death if you have a suffiently large unit. Cheeky.

I may have misread but my understanding was that in building combats the 10 models (or 3 Ogres etc) chosen get to fight, and causalities are taken 'from the back'. In other words if you say that 10 infantrymen are fighting, if 5 die, you still get to fight with 10 if you had 5 more who could be removed. I don't think this can be used to bring a character up in their place.

ShaggothLord
09-08-2010, 17:19
It is somewhat of an unfair idea for high Leadership armies, but the most recent Watchtower game I played the control of the tower switched 3 times total, between High Elves and Orcs.

NecroNurgle
09-08-2010, 17:19
My friend and I rolled up the watch tower on friday. His lizards vs. my VC. He opted to drop a unit of skinks in the tower hoping that the stand and shoot reactions would thin the numbers of my already small ghoul units before they could do anything. But no. My ghouls got in and they didn't leave. Didn't hurt that I had a vampire with summon ghouls in the unit, but that seemed like the best tactic at the time.
He had me beat on points otherwise. Everything else in the army was dead save for a banshee with one wound locked in combat with a saurus block.

Skitter-Squeek
09-08-2010, 17:37
Plague anyone? :D

Remember magic that effects an entire unit isn't nerfed just template ones... I for one love the Watchtower scenario as it makes a person who doesn't make a well balanced army feel the pain of dealing with a scenario like that.


I will say that running a Big unit of Jezzails with a fighty Skaven character in there is pretty tasty.




Also you guys can use instant panic spells or panic induced shooting to get them out like Warpfire throwers, Screaming skull catapults, fire spells, etc.



Squeek



Plenty of ways to deal with it for a person who came prepared with a balanced all comers list.

Urgat
09-08-2010, 17:38
Of course everything was dead, you play a VC army :p Anyway, it matters little, you won :p

stashman
09-08-2010, 17:51
Units are never forced to leave buildings except via panic and breaking from combat. Please read the rules.


Forced is a strong word, but read p. 127 - Abandoning A Building
"A unit that is Frenzied, or is otherwise forced to charge, still cannot do so if it is in a building - it must instead exit the building as close as possible to the enemy instead of charging.

Please read the rules ;)

stashman
09-08-2010, 17:55
Can you really use the step-up rule when fighting in buildings? I have read it as you pick out your 10 "best" fighters and when they are dead, noone can fight back that turn.

If not, attacking with squigherd, 10 nightgoblins sacrifice for the next 10 squigs stepping-up!

sulla
09-08-2010, 18:13
Can you really use the step-up rule when fighting in buildings? I have read it as you pick out your 10 "best" fighters and when they are dead, noone can fight back that turn.

If not, attacking with squigherd, 10 nightgoblins sacrifice for the next 10 squigs stepping-up!:D Unless you're fighting dud opponents like s3 a1 guys... who will only kill about 3 goblins... I think everyone should be houseruling that bit that the player must attempt to replace casualties with the same unit members if possible.

NecroNurgle
09-08-2010, 21:42
Can you really use the step-up rule when fighting in buildings? I have read it as you pick out your 10 "best" fighters and when they are dead, noone can fight back that turn.

If not, attacking with squigherd, 10 nightgoblins sacrifice for the next 10 squigs stepping-up!

Yeah, it's really not clear. Do the ten face the ten? Or if you had units 5 wide do only 5 get their full attacks and 5 get supporting?
If so the ghouls should have done even more than they already did. And he really should have dropped his saurus in there at the start.
Kinda sucks that the rules governing one of the standard scenarios are so murky.

Kevlar
09-08-2010, 23:27
Watchtower! The only mission where Plague censer bearers are still useful. A unit of 20 will hold that tower against everything. Flails work every turn!

manista
10-08-2010, 00:06
dosent the book say in the rules for buildings that only 1 unit of 20 or less models can ocupy it at 1 time and no monsters?

SamVimes
10-08-2010, 01:57
No. In fact, the RBRB mentions looking on 3 different pages for tower rules, depending on scenario/magic item/context, one of which doesn't even have any real rules on it, just fancy pictures of towers.

Souppilgrim
10-08-2010, 05:58
No. In fact, the RBRB mentions looking on 3 different pages for tower rules, depending on scenario/magic item/context, one of which doesn't even have any real rules on it, just fancy pictures of towers.

That's awesome

Kevlar
10-08-2010, 10:21
No any size unit can hold a building. The 20 man limit on watchtower mission is only for deployment.

Demrog
10-08-2010, 10:32
I've only played it once, with 1250 WoC (Me) vs High Elves.

My 12 Warriors (halberd & shield, marked with Khorne) were inside the building. a large block of HE spearmen attacked the tower. His level 4 shadow mage casts Ochams Mind Razor which I fail to dispel... 10 rerolled S8 attacks later and I have 8 dead warriors.

Needless to say I lost combat and the tower that round...

Aergren
10-08-2010, 14:25
I know how I take a tower with Brets. Battle Pilgirims. I have found that because the Reliquae counts as infantry I can get 13 attacks with hatred does pretty well. Especially when they have +1s/t for wildform. Then they can almost always hold the place because they have hatred and stubborn 8.

TheKingInYellow
10-08-2010, 14:33
Only played it once, my HE versus Orcs.

He managed to hold it with 20 night Goblins with nets, but it was a nasty scenario for me. I was defensive/shooting heavy, no magic, and he had a fast list. I cut my way to the tower, and wipe out everything except the Boss who held the tower by himself at the end of turn six.

A total nail-biter, loads of fun, I have no problem with it.

apbevan
10-08-2010, 17:19
My opponent didn't have a Core unit small enough, and because the attacker automatically takes the first turn I got my warriors in there - so he got no advantage from "controlling" the watchtower at the start!I would tell them to suck it up butter cup just like if an opponent doesn't take many banners for breakpoint. I also shake my head when an opponent doesn't take a BSB, 8th Ed is different than 7th learn to play in the new edition and you'll have lots of fun.


I played vs Vc who moved the core unit out and garrisoned it with 20+ grave guardI don't have the scenario rules in front of me but I thought your starting unit is not allowed to leave the tower. I could be wrong but thats what I seem to remember.


Yes indeed they may attack the tower. However, they have to dismount in order to do it. Losing the mount attacks + the save bonus. Makes Bretonnian knights charging a tower pretty useless... Best they could charge in there would be 10+ Grail Knights and even they would have trouble taking it.It helps if you don't make up rules, your knights are limited to 3 assaulting models that loose charging bouns but your not dismounted there are no such rule as dismounting in warhammer. 3 grail knights is 6 S4 attacks and 3 S3 attacks with a 2+ save, 3 Questing knights is 4 S6 attacks and 3 S3 attacks with a 3+ save. sorry Arkh


Haven't had a chance to play it because every time I play a game when we roll for scenario my opponents always ask to leave out the Watchtower because it is too one-sided, so that has to mean something.Yeah it means your opponents don't want to play it. Cannons vs my VC and Bretonnian are literally one sided does that mean I should ask my opponent to leave them out? There is a reason the tower only starts with 20 core and the opponent gets first turn.

I have played the watchtower a few times and have not found it to be one sided or unfair.
My first time was my VC vs Slayer army controlling the tower, I almost won but the game ended on turn 4 just before I could take it. It was a fun game.
My second time was my VC vs Empire controlling the tower, The tower changed hands 3 times the game was a blast.

I also played Bret vs wood elves where they had way watchers scout into a building and I had no problem assaulting with knights. Yes I only get 3 models but its 7 attacks with a 2+ save.

Malorian
10-08-2010, 17:35
I also played Bret vs wood elves where they had way watchers scout into a building and I had no problem assaulting with knights. Yes I only get 3 models but its 7 attacks with a 2+ save.

First of all you would get 10 models as they aren't monsterous infantry/monsterous cav/monsters.

Secondly cav dismount when assaulting buildings so no horse attacks and no mounted/barding bonus to your save.



Edit: I should add that I really think the watchtower mission is a very poor one and can be easily abused.

Sure you can kill a bunch with magic and shooting but not in a turn that you are assaulting the building, plus they can always run in characters or even replace with a bigger unit.

It's an interesting mission but one that in no way seems fair to the attacker.

Urgat
10-08-2010, 18:20
I don't have the scenario rules in front of me but I thought your starting unit is not allowed to leave the tower. I could be wrong but thats what I seem to remember.

It can't leave on the first turn.

darkstar
10-08-2010, 18:46
Those who say they can't remove things from towers: flaming attacks.

That's all I have to say on the matter. That said, putting a lone killy character in the building and challenging would make the scenario a lot harder.

Malorian
10-08-2010, 19:12
That said, putting a lone killy character in the building and challenging would make the scenario a lot harder.

You don't want killy, you want defensive.

The unit in the building is stubborn, so all you need to do is not get wiped out (or wiff a bsb rerollable stubborn break test).

apbevan
10-08-2010, 20:45
First of all you would get 10 models as they aren't monsterous infantry/monsterous cav/monsters.

Secondly cav dismount when assaulting buildings so no horse attacks and no mounted/barding bonus to your save.I read and reread the Building section a dozen times and the only mention of cavalry was in the statment "Therefore, Monstrous Infantry/cavalry/beasts models each count as three models when selectred for a assault party" This is why I was under the assumed Cav was 3 models only.

I had to go to the Cavlary unit entry to find out how they fight in buildings, odd that it would be separate from the rest.

Luisjoey
10-08-2010, 20:59
How the empire could hold the building?

How the Empire could Storm the building?

i think about Warpriest...

NecronBob
10-08-2010, 21:21
We've only played it once, and I'm not sure we did it correctly. As has been said, the rules for buildings are scattered throughout the rulebook, so it was hard to piece together what should happen.

What we did was select ten from each side and fought those models. If some died from the higher initiative group's strike, we didn't have them step up. Then, combat was won by the group with more kills and the loser tested as stubborn. Did we do it correctly?

The way we did it, it was nigh impossible to get a unit of ghouls out of the tower. 2 attacks a piece meant that they were better in the building than they would have been ranked up. Being immune to psychology meant that the ghouls had to be killed to a man, which was impossible since the VC player knew that all he had to do to win was keep spamming ghouls in.

I'm hoping we played it wrong.

Kevlar
10-08-2010, 21:26
Yeah how does a building work for unbreakable troops like slayers or undead/demons? Do you have to kill them to a man to uproot them? Seems a bit unfair if someone has a horde of say 50 ghouls or something similar.

Sparowl
10-08-2010, 21:37
20 saurus warriors with my slann spamming flesh to stone and regrowth on them. Sitting within 12 of my slann. Pretty much unmovable.

That scenario isn't very well thought out.

papabearshane
10-08-2010, 21:41
We had a 1000 pt turny at a local store and had no problem with the tower battles. We did however put some of our own rules on it.........ie

No more then 1 unit with up to 20 models in it at any time.

This helped as you could whittle down the defenders in the tower through attricion. Just house rules it till you feel its about right.........

.......................20 Gobbos with SBows for the win!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!