PDA

View Full Version : imperial guard heavy weapons



srgt. gak
08-08-2010, 20:21
Hey guys just a quick question i have. The other day while playing a pickup game i got my head bitten off by a guy who insisted that imperial guard heavy weapons, in this case heavy bolters, have to be on the larger base, and cannot be two guys on 25mm bases. is this true? if so why do they still produce models that have the two bases and the weapon platform between them? any help on this would be awesome, thanks

khyron
08-08-2010, 20:35
Since the gunner and crewman share a statline, they should be modeled on a single large base.

There's a whole can of worms about being able to use the supplied bases, but you're going to get a lot of flak from opponents if you don't just bite the bullet and combine them. It's an easy enough fix to just keep them on their 25mm bases but place them on top of a larger one.

Lord Damocles
08-08-2010, 20:40
Been discussed at length before.

Weapon crew is [now] a single statline on a single [60mm] base. Using two models (plus weapon) creates problems with templates, unit coherency, cover save generation etc.
Older metal heavy weapon teams may have been (and may still be) sold on seperate bases, but this is clearly out of step with the current rules.


Simple solution: Put the two heavy weapon operators on a single 60mm base.
You don't even need to glue them down.

Noserenda
08-08-2010, 20:41
Field them on supplied bases, which isnt always the big ones.

Tbh I converted all of mine off of those ugly ass bases back in 4th and noones had a problem with it in 5th. Depends on your gaming group though.

Vaktathi
08-08-2010, 20:54
Hey guys just a quick question i have. The other day while playing a pickup game i got my head bitten off by a guy who insisted that imperial guard heavy weapons, in this case heavy bolters, have to be on the larger base, and cannot be two guys on 25mm bases. is this true? if so why do they still produce models that have the two bases and the weapon platform between them? any help on this would be awesome, thanks

The rules say absolutely nothing on the matter except that models need to be on the base they were supplied with.

Now, IG HWT's have been condensed into a single model, so for gameplay purposes it's probably best to have them on one base, otherwise the gameplay mechanics break down (just as they did when IG HWT's were two models on one base) but as far as the actual rules go, if you bought them and they were on two 25mm bases, they can remain that way, no rule demands you rebase them.

Chem-Dog
08-08-2010, 21:14
Field them on supplied bases

This was always the rule with GW as soon as different sized bases became an issue.
My Steel Legion HW teams (apart from the Missile Launcher team which exists on a pair of regular round slotta bases) came on the oldschool flat 60mm bases which were nigh on impossible to keep models attached to and made the HW's stand out too much from the rest of the squad, so I converted up some bases using a 40mm round base and a few of the smaller Warhammer square bases as I'm one of those people who doesn't like square bases in 40K armies.

I'm certainly not going to re-base all my Lascannons and Heavy Bolters, I would be willing to consider putting my Missile launcher teams on the same bases as my other heavy weapons but I'm not going to put them on those huge bases, it's ugly. Footprint whingers can be damned, it's not like Guardsmen are that hard to kill anyway.
I'm not overly fond of the needless abstraction of making an IG HW team a single 2 wound model anyway.

AndrewGPaul
08-08-2010, 23:04
Depending on which old models you have, they can be on a single 65mm base (current models), 2 25mm bases (Valhallan, Mordian and Tallarn missile launcher teams), the loader on a base and the weapon on no base (heavy bolters, autocannon), 2 25mm bases and the weapon itself separate (mortars, lascannon) or a 25mm base and a 25x50 rectangular base (Cadian and Catachan missile launchers). Fun, isn't it? :) I re-based all my older teams onto 65mm bases for consistency. It's a little awkward because of the height of the standing loaders, but that's a trivial issue.

As Chem-dog says, the "heavy weapon team" statline is pointless anyway. having them being a special team was only relevant in 2nd edition, when the loader could pick up the weapon if the gunner died, and the team could be split from the rest of the squad. In 3rd and 4th edition there was no need for any special rules, other than the non-WYSIWYG issue of some loaders not having a lasgun.

MegaPope
08-08-2010, 23:14
The rules stipulate a single base, but AFAIK do not specify its overall size. The plastic Cadian tripod weapons, as well as the Steel Legion HBs and Lascannons, will only really fit on 60mm. But the Cadian Mortars and MLs, and the Steel Legion MLs, will happily fit on 40mm bases - they look in proportion and they're correct by the rules :)

Chem-Dog
08-08-2010, 23:27
As Chem-dog says, the "heavy weapon team" statline is pointless anyway.

More than pointless, it's an inconvenience. Not only does it mean you can effectively instakill two guardsmen with a single shot/hit and make your 10 man squad a 9 man unit, it deprives you of a lasgun for your glorious FRFSRF rolling :mad:
And don't even get me started on the fact veteran sergeants/officers can't use lasguns :mad: :mad:

Bunnahabhain
09-08-2010, 00:10
Mine are on an assortment between 25 and 65mm, and are not getting rebased.

I don't generally play the kind of people who care about it, and if I do, I have a number of 65mm plasticard circles that can be slipped under the odd size bases to normalise them.

The rules are enough of a mess, and likely to change again. It would be nice if the next version had a note on the relevant unit entries about the assortment of bases about....

srgt. gak
09-08-2010, 00:21
Thanks for the responses guys.

So what im taking from this is that the i can have them on whatever base i like as long as i take a 65mm to slip under it for the %^$hole player. I mean its not like i play in tornies or anything. In fact i consider myself more of a hobbyist than a player.

What suprises me about how this conversation came to be is that the guy yelled at me (at the top of his lungs) because they were "incorrectly based", yet he had no problem accepting my homebrew hbs, where i took a lasgun stock and barrel, and bolter body, and a sb drum and made a smaller looking SAW replica. :wtf: i mean you would think that would twist his nipples more than the base.

LonelyPath
09-08-2010, 00:33
If my opponents have problems with my approach to liking my teams on separate bases I tend to carry a few 60mm discs of card with me so that if they raise the issue I just put those under the teams, problem solved. However, when I put the gunner on a 40mm and the other guy on a 25mm they tend to hang off the disc a little, not that it's a problem.

The main reason I base my guys individually is for me to keep a eye on their wound totals easier, in the heat of battle it's quite easy to lose track of a wound on a single model, when you remove a guy from a HWT it's far easier to note that there's only 1 wound left.

TheOmiTsuki
09-08-2010, 00:35
I never really understood the rule change ether. It makes heavy weapons squads really weak since they are just 3, 2 wound models instead of 6 1 wound models.


But really as long as you treat the heavy weapons guy and another guardsmen the same as if they where the 2 wound statline in the book your fine and you were and he threw a fight about it anyways I prolly wouldnt play with him as he will just throw a fit about something else.

Bunnahabhain
09-08-2010, 00:37
Thanks for the responses guys.

So what im taking from this is that the i can have them on whatever base i like as long as i take a 65mm to slip under it for the %^$hole player. I mean its not like i play in tornies or anything. In fact i consider myself more of a hobbyist than a player.

What suprises me about how this conversation came to be is that the guy yelled at me (at the top of his lungs) because they were "incorrectly based", yet he had no problem accepting my homebrew hbs, where i took a lasgun stock and barrel, and bolter body, and a sb drum and made a smaller looking SAW replica. :wtf: i mean you would think that would twist his nipples more than the base.

That would be as the bases make a ( minor and generally irrelevant) in game difference, and the way the weapons are modelled doesn't...

Chem-Dog
09-08-2010, 02:25
The rules are enough of a mess, and likely to change again. It would be nice if the next version had a note on the relevant unit entries about the assortment of bases about....

Or go the Privateer press route and involve base size in the rules. Up until recently GW haven't really been able to do this as it's only in the last couple of years that 40K has aquired a full set of matching bases in all sizes. It wasn't all that long ago we had to mount anything bigger than a standard infantry model on a square/rectangular base.


I never really understood the rule change ether. It makes heavy weapons squads really weak since they are just 3, 2 wound models instead of 6 1 wound models.

Thus meaning that a gun is removed after two wounds are scored instead of the previous system when the loaders were essentially ablative armour for the guns.

Vaktathi
09-08-2010, 07:20
Thanks for the responses guys.

So what im taking from this is that the i can have them on whatever base i like as long as i take a 65mm to slip under it for the %^$hole player. I mean its not like i play in tornies or anything. In fact i consider myself more of a hobbyist than a player.

What suprises me about how this conversation came to be is that the guy yelled at me (at the top of his lungs) because they were "incorrectly based", yet he had no problem accepting my homebrew hbs, where i took a lasgun stock and barrel, and bolter body, and a sb drum and made a smaller looking SAW replica. :wtf: i mean you would think that would twist his nipples more than the base.
I'd have packed up and left if someone yelled at me like that. By RAW, if they came on 2 25mm bases, you'd need opponents permission to rebase them anyway.

MegaPope
09-08-2010, 09:16
On the subject of the basing issue itself, I think it was only included because some bean-counter in Nottingham got annoyed that creative people were making 9 weapon teams out of a 3-team box set and some extra Guardsmen...

wilsonian
09-08-2010, 09:38
I can see this being a problem for myself as all my ML teams are just two models. Might have the fashion a 60mm base that can hold them with their 25mm bases still attached.

Grimtuff
09-08-2010, 09:53
Thus meaning that a gun is removed after two wounds are scored instead of the previous system when the loaders were essentially ablative armour for the guns.

I cannot understand why GW did not give them Eternal Warrior and Vunerable to Blasts. 2 USRs which would cover the fact that it is 2 seperate guys and not *technically* a single model very very easily. :eyebrows:

But what do we know. :rolleyes:

don_mondo
09-08-2010, 12:20
My primary IG army is RT-era IG, with the over-the-shoulder style heavy weapons. And they're on 25mm bases cause that is what they came with and they are not going to be rebased. When I field the heavy weapon, I do NOT field the 'loader', and treat the HW model as a 2-wound model.
On the other hand, my Lizardman IG army (currently) uses the current heavy weapon bits, and they are mounted on the large bases. I say currently because they originally used the older over-the-shoulder weapons also.

To me it boils down to what model/weapon you are using and what that model/weapon came with. Whatever it came with, that's what you use. I'm not going to bust someone's balls because they did rebase their old HW teams, but I'm not going to rebase mine just because they think I should.

LonelyPath
09-08-2010, 12:49
@ MegaPope - I still do that, heheh.

@ wilsonian - use blu-tac, it will hold them on that disc easily enough :)

Hunger
09-08-2010, 13:19
Mine are on an assortment between 25 and 65mm, and are not getting rebased.

I don't generally play the kind of people who care about it

Quite right - folk that moan about stuff like that are not worth playing anyway. My heart sinks a little when I hear people asking questions about what size bases things should be on and thinking hard about how many models can get into close combat with a particular base size etc.

The answer should always be "go with what looks best, and what you want."

With regard to losing the extra lasgun shot (as pointed out by Chem-Dog), I always pictured the gunner having just the heavy weapon, not carrying a lasgun as well, so that didn;t bother me.

AndrewGPaul
09-08-2010, 13:31
I think he means that an Imperial Guard squad gets to shoot the sergeant's laspistol, the special weapon, the heavy weapon and 6 lasguns. Without the Heavy Weapon Team rules, you'd get to shoot 7 lasguns - the loader essentially does nothing (although "in reality", I suppose he's loading the heavy weapon. :) )

Chem-Dog
09-08-2010, 14:19
On the subject of the basing issue itself, I think it was only included because some bean-counter in Nottingham got annoyed that creative people were making 9 weapon teams out of a 3-team box set and some extra Guardsmen...

But you can buy the big bases seperately anyway now.....


I cannot understand why GW did not give them Eternal Warrior and Vunerable to Blasts. 2 USRs which would cover the fact that it is 2 seperate guys and not *technically* a single model very very easily. :eyebrows:

But what do we know. :rolleyes:

OR, just spitballing ideas here, just kept it as 2X T3 5+sv troopers who MAY or MAY NOT occupy a single base ;)


I think he means that an Imperial Guard squad gets to shoot the sergeant's laspistol, the special weapon, the heavy weapon and 6 lasguns. Without the Heavy Weapon Team rules, you'd get to shoot 7 lasguns

Yes, he means just that :D

Erwos
09-08-2010, 14:39
I'm not going to press hard on this, but I don't think he was entirely wrong. The IG codex does seem to say that HW teams are one model now, and you don't put one model on two bases. Yeah, it sucks to rebase, but every time there's a new codex, you wind up doing some work to get your army back into shape.

The plasticard thing is a good compromise solution, though.

AndrewGPaul
09-08-2010, 16:01
As an aside, the loss of the 2nd edition rule for splitting heavy weapon teams is really hamstringing my Guard army - it's full of squads with things like flamers and heavy bolters, or meltaguns and missile launchers. I'd consider re-equipping the squads, but I don't have sufficient decal sheets to redo all the squad markings if I did that. :)