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vinny t
08-08-2010, 23:52
Just how broken is Kairos? Would you be upset if someone brought the uber-chicken to the table? Just wondering because I've been reading through his rules, and he seems frickin amazing!

dimetri1
09-08-2010, 00:21
you can not take him until 2500pts any way. Most people don't put him in a list until 3000pts. IMHO at 3000pts anything goes.

Nubl0
09-08-2010, 00:55
He is indeed powerfull but as dimetri stated, most people wont use him until 3000pts anyway and by that point most armies will have somthing to atleast mitigate his magical onslaught. Teclis on the other hand...

Maoriboy007
09-08-2010, 01:03
Howver he is quite frankly, just unpleasant to go up against. Play him if you like the thought of magic sucking any more fun out of the game than it already does.

Bac5665
09-08-2010, 01:23
I've never enjoyed a game with any special character. I think they are bad for warhammer and should be avoided.

Now, that aside, every single DoC SC is crazy undercosted and scary good. So they are by far worse to play against than most.

Nubl0
09-08-2010, 01:24
every single one? So karanak? Kugath..? Maybe even skarbrand are all game ruining in your opinion. Yeah thought not.

tmarichards
09-08-2010, 01:28
I wouldn't mind if I was using my Dark Elves with a Power Scroll and rolled Purple Sun...

But yeah, I generally agree that for the most part special characters are just bent. Especially Teclis...

Nubl0
09-08-2010, 01:39
Yes... I loathe teclis, I really, really do. I have not had a single enjoyable game with teclis in.

Adyger
09-08-2010, 01:42
Yes... I loathe teclis, I really, really do. I have not had a single enjoyable game with teclis in.

Who is teclis? I don't recognize the name (mind you no one in my gaming group currently uses Daemons, so maybe that's why). Why is he so terrible to face?

Nubl0
09-08-2010, 01:54
Oh Teclis isn't a Daemon character, he's a ponsy high elf mage who is soooo good with magic... it makes my eyes bleed.

Maoriboy007
09-08-2010, 03:15
Who is teclis? I don't recognize the name (mind you no one in my gaming group currently uses Daemons, so maybe that's why). Why is he so terrible to face?

Pick a magic lore you hate. Now pick the worst spell to get hit by. Now get hit by it every HE magic phase.....

sulla
09-08-2010, 05:09
Pick a magic lore you hate. Now pick the worst spell to get hit by. Now get hit by it every HE magic phase.....With +d3 power dice from his crown and +d3 from the banner of sorcery, it's probably more like pick 3 spells and get hit by them every turn... Unstoppable purple sun, unstoppable Ld10 spirit leech and unstoppable... well you get the picture.

Makaber
09-08-2010, 05:23
I wouldn't get upset if someone brought Kairos to the table. I have a friend who brought him twice, both games were terrible, and I would get pissed if he brought him a third time, because we've established how he ruins everybody's day now.

cybercaine
09-08-2010, 05:45
Honestly I couldn't care less if someone brought Kairos to the table as opposed to any of the other DoC stuff. He can be very brutal, but so are a lot of things in this game- especially in that book. I have the same opinion on Teclis, Mannfred, etc.

Lord of Divine Slaughter
09-08-2010, 06:21
every single one? So karanak? Kugath..? Maybe even skarbrand are all game ruining in your opinion. Yeah thought not.

Trouble is, you don't see these guys ;)

eyescrossed
09-08-2010, 07:21
Honestly I couldn't care less if someone brought Kairos to the table as opposed to any of the other DoC stuff. He can be very brutal, but so are a lot of things in this game- especially in that book. I have the same opinion on Teclis, Mannfred, etc.

Wait, Mannfred? Compared to Teclis and Kairos? :eyebrows:

klstrider28
09-08-2010, 07:24
you can not take him until 2500pts any way. Most people don't put him in a list until 3000pts. IMHO at 3000pts anything goes.

pretty sure he costs exactly 25% of 2500 pts.

And IMHO there are lots of scarier things in the Daemon Armybook.

cybercaine
09-08-2010, 07:33
Wait, Mannfred? Compared to Teclis and Kairos? :eyebrows:

Yeah. . . try +2 to cast and dispel (with skull wand and book of ashur), he brings 2 dice, and he knows 14 spells? Oh, and he has 5 wounds and gets even more dice on both the dispel and casting side by dealing wounds in h2h. And he can refill his pool with one of the lores in which he knows all the spells. Make no mistake, Mannfred is a real beating.

eyescrossed
09-08-2010, 07:34
Yeah. . . try +2 to cast and dispel (with skull wand and book of ashur), he brings 2 dice, and he knows 14 spells? Oh, and he has 5 wounds and gets even more dice on both the dispel and casting side by dealing wounds in h2h. And he can refill his pool with one of the lores in which he knows all the spells. Make no mistake, Mannfred is a real beating.

That Magic Item combo costs an absolute crapload, but I can see what you're getting at.

cybercaine
09-08-2010, 07:39
That Magic Item combo costs an absolute crapload, but I can see what you're getting at.

The original model in the discussion that we are comparing him to isn't exactly cheap and comes in at more points than Mannfred.


pretty sure he costs exactly 25% of 2500 pts.

And IMHO there are lots of scarier things in the Daemon Armybook.

7th edition, I'd of said that maybe 3 or 4 things were more scary. This edition, I don't think so. Maybe Skulltaker. After that, I'm having trouble coming up with things that are that scary. Giant units of Plaguebearers aren't exactly scary anymore. Blue Scribes is a lot worse than he used to be as well. I'm curious what you think is more scary?

Maoriboy007
09-08-2010, 08:01
Yeah. . . try +2 to cast and dispel (with skull wand and book of ashur), he brings 2 dice, and he knows 14 spells? Oh, and he has 5 wounds and gets even more dice on both the dispel and casting side by dealing wounds in h2h. And he can refill his pool with one of the lores in which he knows all the spells. Make no mistake, Mannfred is a real beating.

Mannfred is good but not Kairos good.
Kairos can pretty much do anything Manfredd can, can fly comes with ward saves etc.
Putting Manfredd in combat is risky too he dies so does the army.


The original model in the discussion that we are comparing him to isn't exactly cheap and comes in at more points than Mannfred.

I'm not sure what KAiros cost, but that combo on foot puts manfredd at 600+ points.

eyescrossed
09-08-2010, 08:11
I'm not sure what KAiros cost, but that combo on foot puts manfredd at 600+ points.

610 to be exact, so not enough points to get a mount in 2500.

cybercaine
09-08-2010, 08:12
Mannfred is good but not Kairos good.
Kairos can pretty much do anything Manfredd can, can fly comes with ward saves etc.
Putting Manfredd in combat is risky too he dies so does the army.



I'm not sure what KAiros cost, but that combo on foot puts manfredd at 600+ points.

Kairos uses up the total lord points at 2500. It is impossible to play him in any game smaller. And Mannfred is meant to do different things than Kairos. Kairos happens to be really vulnerable to things like PoS and Purple Sun, doens't mean he's terrible. Mannfred can very easily end up in a beefy unit and have regenerate, both of which make for a harder to kill caster. And if it happens to be a cav unit, he ends up with a 3+ armour with regenerate-nothing to shake a stick at. Oh, and as far as Kairos doing what Manfred Man does, he certainly doesn't cast a bunch of spells, get more power dice, then make new units and refill old units hyper efficiently. Roll a decent amount of power dice like 10 and that is exactly what Mannfred does. And his spells are every bit as hard to counter with his +2. And he's better at stopping the enemy spells.

Maoriboy007
09-08-2010, 09:08
Kairos uses up the total lord points at 2500. It is impossible to play him in any game smaller..

A +2 Manfred would be just shy, on foot with the skullstaff hes is more affordable, Kairos however comes with more bells and whisles then.


And Mannfred is meant to do different things than Kairos..

indeed, manfredd is supposed to keep his army alive, Kairos is supposed to devestate yours.


Kairos happens to be really vulnerable to things like PoS and Purple Sun, doens't mean he's terrible. ..

And MAnfred is vulnerable to being tracked down and killed by nasty heros (especially killing blow ones).
Still Kairos I'll give you the PoS and the PS. I'll even throw in shooting at him (althouh T6 and 3+ Ward is not bad.


Mannfred can very easily end up in a beefy unit and have regenerate, both of which make for a harder to kill caster...

Adding points onto manfredd much? In that case send skulltaker after him for Kairos, tack on some fleshhounds.


And if it happens to be a cav unit, he ends up with a 3+ armour with regenerate-nothing to shake a stick at. .

You're adding points as above, and you're missing the point, Manfredd in combat is a risky proposition.


Oh, and as far as Kairos doing what Manfred Man does, he certainly doesn't cast a bunch of spells, get more power dice, then make new units and refill old units hyper efficiently. Roll a decent amount of power dice like 10 and that is exactly what Mannfred does. .

You do know KAiros gets any spell he like from all the lores and the lore of Tzeench right? Death and Tzeench grant extra dispel dice and Lore of Life heals units. He can also cast your best spell on a 7+ (with his Level 4 and +2 to cast) like purple sun?


And his spells are every bit as hard to counter with his +2. And he's better at stopping the enemy spells.

I'll give you the dispelling part, but Kairos has MAnnfredd out matched in sheer offensive power with a huge array of spells and a re-roll to cast.

Thats why Kairos won tournaments and Manfred was never seen as much worse than a generic Vampire lord for his points cost. He is a lot nicer now with the new lore of death I'll grant you, but I'd find it hard to say hes in the same legue as Kairos and Teclis.

Soul of Iron
09-08-2010, 17:45
Kairos can be a real PITA. Land him next to a wizard tower in this edition and you've got some serious issues. as he'll have access to all the spells from all the lores he chose from.

Damn horrible.

How are the scribes nastier in 8th then they were in 7th?