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DaemonReign
09-08-2010, 02:20
So khorne-daemons have this Icon (standard) that let's them roll one extra d6 on the first charge-move - this is simple enough with infantry (bloddletters) in 8th Ed - You just roll 3d6+M instead of the normal 2d6.

However, in my last 3k game I had a fairly obese unit of Bloodcrushers with this Icon and when it came to rolling for the first charge my Dwarven opponent started to argue with me about the interpretation of this Icon in 8th Ed.

His idea was that I had to roll my "normal" 3d6 (minus the worst result) then add my movement-value and THEN roll that extra d6 as granted by the Icon of Endless War.

My interpretation was that you instead ought to get to roll 4d6 right away, discard that lowest result, and then add your base movement.

My opponent argued that I was wrong because "my version" was statistically "better" than doing it "his way".

This is true, of course, rolling 4d6 and discarding the worst result IS a tincy wincy bit better than rolling 3d6, discarding the lowest result and then rolling an extra dice.

However, the wording of the Icon is very simple - "the unit rolls an extra dice on the first charge" - there is NOTHING, anywhere (not in the AB, not in the Errata, not in the FAQ) indicating anything at all about this dice-roll being made separate from the rest of the charge-roll.

This particular game was a game that I actually wanted to lose, so it didn't matter much. On top of this, the way I rolled for this particular charge I would not have made it the required distance no-matter how I rolled those dice.. But I am thinking of future games here...

So what do You think? This is a 25-pts One Use Only item. With the current wording of this item doesn't it seem more fair to roll 4d6 and subtract that lowest result?

Mr_Rose
09-08-2010, 03:17
Technically, a detailed examination of the RAW seems to indicate that the Icon doesn't work at all without some sort of errata as you don't get charge moves any more; you have a charge range which you need to roll to beat, but you then move an unlimited amount when actually engaging.

However, that's just silly.

I would say this is a sequencing issue as there is a dispute between you whether the icon's additional D6 is applied before or after Swiftstride's add one, subtract one is. And per P10, the player whose turn it is gets to choose which effect takes precedence.

stripsteak
09-08-2010, 04:26
"the unit rolls an extra dice on the first charge" that's not what my banner says "The unit adds D6" to its first charge move."

I don't think there is any issue with sequencing. You add d6" to your charge. To do this you would first need to know what your charge distance is to add d6" to it, or figure out the d6" then determine your charge distance and add them together. There is nothing to indicate this roll becomes part of swiftstride, if you roll 4d6 and discard the die from the banner then you aren't increasing your charge by d6" your adding an additional dice to the random movement determination of your charge distance.

Lord Inquisitor
09-08-2010, 04:31
Agreed - roll your charge range, then add D6 to that. Rolling 4D6 and discarding the lowest is easier but technically incorrect and grants you a slightly higher average charge range.

DaemonReign
09-08-2010, 06:32
Rolling 4D6 and discarding the lowest is easier but technically incorrect and grants you a slightly higher average charge range.

"Unit adds d6 to first charge move"

With Cavalry (Bloodcrushers) this means 3+1=4

Your "technically incorrect" is based on the rules for Swiftstride that ultimately disqualifies the Icon all together (as pointed out above by someone else) - and using this as an argument for the "add the extra dice last" seems as hollow to me now as it did when the situation occured.

So far the sequencing-argument is the most convincing one in this thread, all though I must say I dislike it because A; it doesn't solve the actual dispute and B; it involves me over-ruling my friends on the technicality of My charges taking place in My turn (hence I decide).

I think I'll just talk this over with them when we're in a neutral state, it shouldn't be a problem.

I must also add that I become very sceptical as soon as anyone brings in the "what's better"-argument - that bit should not enter into the judging at all. And even if it should - we're talking Bloodcrushers here (the Only relevant intance where a unit with Swiftstride will ever use this Icon).. I mean, if we were talking Cold One Knights, or FleshHounds, then I could understand people thinking "maybe those statistical one or two inches extra is too much" but with Bloodcrushers come on they suck to begin with (competatively) giving them this minute bonus to the charge is not going to be game-breaking.

But back to the subject (because what's Better should not be in the wager, especially when the difference is so ridiculously tiny) - I am more disconcerned now than I was before starting this particular thread.. It seems (unless I get my friends to see my point) that I'm caught between a solution that feels wrong (sequencing) and a solution that is wrong (adding the dice separately).

T10
09-08-2010, 06:39
This is true, of course, rolling 4d6 and discarding the worst result IS a tincy wincy bit better than rolling 3d6, discarding the lowest result and then rolling an extra dice.


How far is this unit of measurement you call "tincy wincy"?


"the unit rolls an extra dice on the first charge" that's not what my banner says "The unit adds D6" to its first charge move."


This is of course the truth. The icon provides an additional dice separate from the Swiftstride dice, one that cannot be discarded as the lowest dice.

-T10

DaemonReign
09-08-2010, 06:44
This is of course the truth. The icon provides an additional dice separate from the Swiftstride dice, one that cannot be discarded as the lowest dice.
-T10

What do you base this on?

How is this any more to the truth than just rolling 4D6 and discarding the lowest? The 3d6-lowest+movement is the NEW charge-move for cavalry. Adding a d6 to this makes 4d6. Why isn't this just natural and plain?

Seriously. Nobody has anything more convincing than this sequencing?

And "tincy wincy" means small in my book.. So small it shouldn't be an issue and especially not for a show-off crap unit like Bloodcrushers..

stripsteak
09-08-2010, 07:30
because its what the banner says to do? it's really hard to argue how 'adds d6" to it's first charge move' can mean something different then adding d6" to the charge move. It doesn't say increase the dice used for swiftstride by 1.

you figure out your charge move, M+2d6 then add in another d6 after figuring it out. If you have swiftstride you figure out your charge move M+3d6 drop lowest then add d6 to it.

Loq-Gor
09-08-2010, 08:24
LM have essentially the same banner, with just a little extra note about moving the normal value for a failed charge. I give this to my Cold Ones pretty often and just add a different colored dice when rolling the normal 3D6, as I never would have thought to use the highest three of four dice, so that I know not to remove it from the roll. The banner is pretty clearly worded so the fair thing is to play the banner how it is meant to be used and not try to squeeze that little extra out of the dice.

Also if Bloodcrushers are a show off crap unit why bring them at all? They aren't cheap and if you are throwing a magic banner on them then you have raised their cost further by adding it and a standard bearer. Also if Tincy wincy is so small that it shouldn't matter what do you care?

CaptainFaramir
09-08-2010, 09:32
Average 3d6-lowest roll = 8.45833..

Average 3d6-lowest + d6 av. roll (3.5) = 11.95833..

Average 4d6-lowest = 12.24306..

There is a 0.2847" advantage in taking the 4d6 method. This is not significant statistically (approx. 2%)

Evidence attached

Symrivven
09-08-2010, 11:16
I want to second Captainfaramir, his calculations are correct as he stated, (easy to check with evidence attached). So for friendly play it doesn't really matter which one of the two you choose.





Significant at around 2%? with n=2 ;)

Mr_Rose
09-08-2010, 11:29
Either way, the only other method (than the sequencing rule on p.10) to determine who is right, until an erratum or FAQ clarifies the issue (for both Lizards and daemons), is to roll a dice for it; on a 4+ one of you is right and the other isn't.

T10
09-08-2010, 14:37
While I am sure CF has made very fine calculations indeed, I would like to point out that the difference between two dice rolls are commonly measured in whole units.

I've never seen anyone roll 3d6 and score 11.5, even if that is the average result.

-T10

DaemonReign
09-08-2010, 14:55
because its what the banner says to do? it's really hard to argue how 'adds d6" to it's first charge move' can mean something different then adding d6" to the charge move. It doesn't say increase the dice used for swiftstride by 1.

you figure out your charge move, M+2d6 then add in another d6 after figuring it out. If you have swiftstride you figure out your charge move M+3d6 drop lowest then add d6 to it.

To me this is semantics. Swiftstride didn't exist when the Icon was written to begin with. To say that the charge move is the result of a roll or the actual roll itself isn't an objective fact - it's just opinion.



Also if Bloodcrushers are a show off crap unit why bring them at all? They aren't cheap and if you are throwing a magic banner on them then you have raised their cost further by adding it and a standard bearer. Also if Tincy wincy is so small that it shouldn't matter what do you care?

First off, in my reference to Cold One Knights I meant DE-units but maybe the LM equivalent also have lances I don't know.

And Bloodcrushers suck. My original post clearly stated that I had built a toned down List - hence the obese unit of crushers (as well as a handfull of other self-imposed nerfs). To underline this point let me just add that I also let my opponent dispel things that weren't remain-in-play but rather "until caster's next magic phase", he forgot to roll fear-tests like 20 times.. I had a unit of 9 Fiends and only fielded 6 in the actual battle. This is not about trying to squeeze some extra 0,3 inches by some eloquent cheat, and even if it was Bloodcrushers would still be way uncompetative. My problem with this particular issue is purely principal - and so far no-one has given any solid objective argument that settles this. My impression of how it should be done (3 best dice of 4) has no more or less basis in the Rules than the two best dice of 3 plus one.


Average 3d6-lowest roll = 8.45833..

There is a 0.2847" advantage in taking the 4d6 method. This is not significant statistically (approx. 2%)


I hadn't done the math but I'm glad it's as "tincy wincy" as I imagined.


Either way, the only other method (than the sequencing rule on p.10) to determine who is right, until an erratum or FAQ clarifies the issue (for both Lizards and daemons), is to roll a dice for it; on a 4+ one of you is right and the other isn't.

Yeah I know. I think I speak for my entire group though when I say that we find such solutions as wholy unsatisfying.

Oh well.. so in summary Some people acknowledge that there is a dubiousness here but can offer no better solution than roll-off or sequencing - while the rest argues religiously that 3d6-lowest+M +d6 is the way to go.

I guess I'll go with the religious guys' argument in the end. I don't play anything but friendly games anyway.

Symrivven
09-08-2010, 15:23
While I am sure CF has made very fine calculations indeed, I would like to point out that the difference between two dice rolls are commonly measured in whole units.

I've never seen anyone roll 3d6 and score 11.5, even if that is the average result.

-T10

:eyebrows: I would like to point out that, while you are corrected and most results in warhammer are indeed integers or are rounded up/down to one, that this fact is totally irrelevant in this case.

Now I wonder, are you one of those maths haters or are you actually interested in how it works and what those numbers can show you?

stripsteak
09-08-2010, 16:55
while the average affect is small, the difference is actually between 1"-5" inches. 4d6 drop lowest will always be as good or better then 3d6drop+d6 it will never be worse.

if you roll 6,6,6,1
4d6 = 18"
3d6+d6 = 13"
that's a pretty significant difference.
or even 4,5,4,2
11" vs 13"

4d6 drop lowest will also hit any number above 13 more often than 3d6+d6, while hitting the lower numbers less often it's whole distribution is shifted toward the higher end. It'll hit 18 about 150% more times than 3d6+d6

the numbers don't really matter though except to show you that the two methods are not equivalent, if you roll 4d6 and drop the 'extra' dice you are simply not doing what the banner says to do. There is nothing in the banner to say this d6 can be dropped for any reason. This isn't an issue of semantics it's not twisting the banner words in any way, they are very simple words 'adds d6" to it's first charge move' if you are doing anything besides rolling a d6 and adding this number to your charge move you are not doing what the banner says.

Lord Inquisitor
09-08-2010, 19:03
"Unit adds d6 to first charge move"

With Cavalry (Bloodcrushers) this means 3+1=4
It would, if that's what it said. It actually says "The unit adds D6" to its first charge move". So you calculate your charge "move" and add D6 inches to that.


Your "technically incorrect" is based on the rules for Swiftstride that ultimately disqualifies the Icon all together (as pointed out above by someone else) - and using this as an argument for the "add the extra dice last" seems as hollow to me now as it did when the situation occured.
Fine, I agree. The Icon doesn't work at all, as it adds D6" to your unlimited charge move in 8th. Happy?


I must also add that I become very sceptical as soon as anyone brings in the "what's better"-argument - that bit should not enter into the judging at all. And even if it should - we're talking Bloodcrushers here (the Only relevant intance where a unit with Swiftstride will ever use this Icon).. I mean, if we were talking Cold One Knights, or FleshHounds, then I could understand people thinking "maybe those statistical one or two inches extra is too much" but with Bloodcrushers come on they suck to begin with (competatively) giving them this minute bonus to the charge is not going to be game-breaking.
And I get sceptical as soon as anyone brings up how their easter egg will make the game more balanced. The Icon is rediculously good these days. You just want to have your cake and eat it. It adds D6" to the charge move, I'm willing to say that this translates in 8th to adding D6" to the charge range in 8th. I'm not willing to say that it adds D6 to the swiftstride roll, it's +D6" period. Swift stride states that you roll 3 dice and remove the lowest. Icon adds +D6". Saying that this means that you roll 4 dice and pick the best three is 1) against the rule for Swiftstride (rolling 3 dice), 2) against the rule for the icon (that you add D6" inches to the charge range, you may end up in the situation that this D6" is not added to the charge range if it is the lowest die) and 3) it is flat out gamey.

The fact that you're the only one arguing that this is the "right" interpretation should tell you something.

TheKingInYellow
09-08-2010, 19:54
Statisically significant or not, I have no idea how you determined that you could just roll 4d6 and drop the lowest.

You add d6" to your charge move. Your charge move is determined and then you add d6" inches to it. it in no way, shape, or form, tells you to modify the method by which you determine what your charge move is!

DaemonReign
09-08-2010, 20:16
It would, if that's what it said. It actually says "The unit adds D6" to its first charge move". So you calculate your charge "move" and add D6 inches to that.


Fine, I agree. The Icon doesn't work at all, as it adds D6" to your unlimited charge move in 8th. Happy?


And I get sceptical as soon as anyone brings up how their easter egg will make the game more balanced. The Icon is rediculously good these days. You just want to have your cake and eat it. It adds D6" to the charge move, I'm willing to say that this translates in 8th to adding D6" to the charge range in 8th. I'm not willing to say that it adds D6 to the swiftstride roll, it's +D6" period. Swift stride states that you roll 3 dice and remove the lowest. Icon adds +D6". Saying that this means that you roll 4 dice and pick the best three is 1) against the rule for Swiftstride (rolling 3 dice), 2) against the rule for the icon (that you add D6" inches to the charge range, you may end up in the situation that this D6" is not added to the charge range if it is the lowest die) and 3) it is flat out gamey.

The fact that you're the only one arguing that this is the "right" interpretation should tell you something.

I'm gonna settle for using this Icon as You argue it should be used. I don't see your arguments as "clear as day" as they seem to be to most people commenting here - but I suppose you do have a point about me being the only sucker really arguing anything else.

So I suppose I should be happy to have this settled.

However, your numbered list of reasons feels unfair because my reasoning was very logical to me:

This particular unit charges 3D6-minus lowest plus movement.

This particular Icon adds one d6.

Result: 4D6-swiftstride.

This would be the simplest, most straightforward way of doing it. All these "rules!"-reasons against it stand on thin ground since, as we both agree, a hardline approach would render the Icon "unusable" all-together in 8th.

I've had enough. Thanks everyone for helping me out here. Even though... haha Oh well, it's not like this is a big deal.

Damocles8
09-08-2010, 20:48
Brets have a similar Virtue, and I hadn't thought to play it as 3d6 minus lowest, then add a d6; or as 4d6 minus lowest, I was just going to add 3d6 period....where's the wrong in that one?

Tykinkuula
09-08-2010, 20:54
Seriously. Nobody has anything more convincing than this sequencing?
Seriously, it's quite a bit more convincing than your arguments have been.



I'm caught between a solution that feels wrong (sequencing) and a solution that is wrong (adding the dice separately).

Despite having 2 negative, well based replies and one neutral one with no reasoning by this point, you adamantly state "This way is wrong". If you have made up your mind already, why did you even ask?


I must also add that I become very sceptical as soon as anyone brings in the "what's better"-argument


So small it shouldn't be an issue and especially not for a show-off crap unit like Bloodcrushers.. ...And Bloodcrushers suck. My original post clearly stated that I had built a toned down List - hence the obese unit of crushers (as well as a handfull of other self-imposed nerfs). To underline this point let me just add that I also let my opponent dispel things that weren't remain-in-play but rather "until caster's next magic phase", he forgot to roll fear-tests like 20 times.. I had a unit of 9 Fiends and only fielded 6 in the actual battle. This is not about trying to squeeze some extra 0,3 inches by some eloquent cheat, and even if it was Bloodcrushers would still be way uncompetative.

I dunno about what you think, but condradicting youself in this manner is NOT going to help you make people change their minds.


How is this any more to the truth than just rolling 4D6 and discarding the lowest? The 3d6-lowest+movement is the NEW charge-move for cavalry. Adding a d6 to this makes 4d6. Why isn't this just natural and plain?
Because book says add to your charge move. Your charge move is 3d-lowest+move. And as shown by calculations, 3d6-lowest+move+d6 is not equal to 3d4-lowest+move. We don't care which one is more powerful, we care about what it's by the book. This has been pointed out several times, and saying your arguments against it so far have been weak would be an understatement.



Some people acknowledge that there is a dubiousness
All I've seen so far is a few neutral posts suggesting you just roll it off instead of arguing all day long. I have not seen anyone yet that wholly agrees with you.


while the rest argues religiously
Considering you're the one not giving valid arguments, I find you using that term against you counter-arguers tad ironic.


To say that the charge move is the result of a roll or the actual roll itself isn't an objective fact - it's just opinion. It is not an opininon, it's a result of english grammar and simple mathemathics. Both of those didn't change themselves according to anyones whim last time I checked. I STILL see no actual arguments for you.

Lastly, note that I aknowledge you have already givien up on the matter. I hope you won't find this post insulting, but rather as constructive criticism. Maybe it'll help you see better why we think we're right, maybe even help you making better arguer the next time you feel like it.

Cheers.

Taureus
09-08-2010, 21:53
If you're rolling 4d6, other than different colored dice, how would you differentiate between which dice was from the Icon?

You could very well be dropping that +1d6 because it was lower than your Swiftstrider roll...

T10
09-08-2010, 22:01
Yeah, that would be the whole point. Daemons (in all guises) need all the advantages they can get these days...

-T10

DaemonReign
10-08-2010, 02:13
Brets have a similar Virtue, and I hadn't thought to play it as 3d6 minus lowest, then add a d6; or as 4d6 minus lowest, I was just going to add 3d6 period....where's the wrong in that one?

There's Nothing wrong at all!! As long as you're not playing Daemons it's actually concidered a sign of skill to interpret inconsistencies between 7th Ed Items and 8th Ed rules from the most advantageous point possible!!

Erhm.. I hope you picked up my sarcasm and I also trust you understand it wasn't directed at you personally.

I don't have time to hurl smirkey pies with the peeps here currently begging for it - I posed a question about something that came up in the latest game I played, I got a whole bunch of opinions but no solid references for these opinions.

The overwhelming conclusion is of course that majority of the people posting here FEELS that adding that extra d6 afterwards is the most prudent thing to do. This is nothing to argue about. The only sad part is the majority-vote could easily have been different had we been talking about another race. So much for objectivity.

The people arguing for sequencing or roll-offs in the matter are at least objective enough to admit (between the lines) that there is no Rule covering this.

For the record I can play this darn Icon either way. I'll let my opponent's decide (just like I did the first time). My own opinion/feeling in the matter is not important enough to ruin the game (if ever so little) for my friends.

CaptainFaramir
10-08-2010, 08:43
The only sad part is the majority-vote could easily have been different had we been talking about another race. So much for objectivity.

!!!!!

First. See my above post. "Objective" proof that there is a difference. Whether the difference is significant (statistically/lay-terms) is a matter of debate.

What is not a matter of debate is the fact that the rules states that you "add a d6" to your charge means work out your charge and add a d6 on the end. No choose the lowest of 4d6. The d6 is added

Why?

[6,6,6] [1]
[4,5,3] [2]
[3,3,3] [2]

In all of these examples, the lowest dice is the "added" d6. But this, in the wording of the rule MUST be added to your charge range. Thus if you rolled all 4d6 and discarded the lowest, you would discard the "added" dice and it would not be "added."

RAW. Whether its daemon's, brettonians, skavens, or bloody beastman. R. A. W.

TheTrueSloth
10-08-2010, 10:08
Hmm, that is a tough one. In friendly games I would simply allow you to roll 4D6 and cry when your Crushers make a horrible green and pink paste of my Glade Guard or whatever other unit you hit.

If we were playing competitively, I would have to ask you to roll Swiftstride, then add D6. While the banner says "add D6 to your first charge" (paraphrased), the ruling for Swiftstride also states "Roll 3D6, discard the lowest". I would argue that because Swiftstride is specific in the number of dice you would roll and the effect that follows afterwards, then it is specific via RAW that you roll three dice, then discard the lowest. Ergo, you would have to roll the Swiftstride dice pool separately from the banner's bonus die roll.

Hell you could roll all four dice at the same time, but I would ask you to use a different coloured dice for the Banner's move to represent it is not one of the dice found in the "Swiftstride Pool".

The other reason would be although the statistical difference between the two methods is realistically negligable, the end result could still be the banner's bonus charge range is lower than any of the dice used during Swiftstride and thus you could discard that one. Swiftstride is specific about the fact you roll three dice and then discard the lowest. Since the banner gives you a bonus fourth die, I wouldn't let you count that in the Swiftstride pool.

I hope that makes sense. And yes, I am now playing with a daemon army so this hurts me even more stating it this way (on the off chance I would want to use Bloodcrushers)


For the record I can play this darn Icon either way.

I'm sorry but this kind of argument is really not constructive nor helpful. The rules are specific about the effect of swiftstride, you would be forced to roll 3D6, discard the lowest, add another D6 for the banner. Its' in the rulebook afterall, clear in black and white. The 3D6 is part of a specific effect for Swiftstride, ergo you would still treat the dice for SwiftStride differently than you would for the banner.


The overwhelming conclusion is of course that majority of the people posting here FEELS that adding that extra d6 afterwards is the most prudent thing to do

Because it is clear in RAW how Swiftstride works, how many dice you roll and what effect comes afterwards. No-one is stopping you rolling the additional D6 as well, but for the purposes of Swiftstride you roll three dice. Whether the banner's rules were written before the current rules or not are irrelevant, until an FAQ comes out stating to the contrary, sadly you roll 3D6, ditch the lowest, add D6.

Toodles

T10
10-08-2010, 10:55
The overwhelming conclusion is of course that majority of the people posting here FEELS that adding that extra d6 afterwards is the most prudent thing to do. This is nothing to argue about. The only sad part is the majority-vote could easily have been different had we been talking about another race. So much for objectivity.

I don't "feel" that you are wrong. I know.

-T10

Tykinkuula
10-08-2010, 11:34
What T10 said. Largest lack of objectivity in this thread is rather evident in Daemonreign's posts. Still waiting for him to make an actual argument.

He came here to ask what the rules were, he didn't like the answer. Tough luck.

Damocles8
10-08-2010, 15:52
!!!!!

First. See my above post. "Objective" proof that there is a difference. Whether the difference is significant (statistically/lay-terms) is a matter of debate.

What is not a matter of debate is the fact that the rules states that you "add a d6" to your charge means work out your charge and add a d6 on the end. No choose the lowest of 4d6. The d6 is added

Why?

[6,6,6] [1]
[4,5,3] [2]
[3,3,3] [2]

In all of these examples, the lowest dice is the "added" d6. But this, in the wording of the rule MUST be added to your charge range. Thus if you rolled all 4d6 and discarded the lowest, you would discard the "added" dice and it would not be "added."

RAW. Whether its daemon's, brettonians, skavens, or bloody beastman. R. A. W.

But wouldn't it make MORE sense to just roll 3d6 and take all 3?

TheTrueSloth
10-08-2010, 16:01
But wouldn't it make MORE sense to just roll 3d6 and take all 3?

It probably would, but the rules for Swiftstride are clear. You take three dice, roll them, ditch the lowest. So evidently, you do just that. The bonus die from the banner has nothing to do with that result and could actually throw up a different result than if you'd rolled just Swiftstride and kept it.

So while it would be convenient, it doesn't work with the rules.

Toodles

Damocles8
10-08-2010, 16:39
So while it would be convenient, it doesn't work with the rules.

Toodles

Because piddly little arguments like this are going to break the game whether we do it one way or the other.......

TheTrueSloth
10-08-2010, 19:10
Because piddly little arguments like this are going to break the game whether we do it one way or the other.......

Clearly - besides, the entire rulebook is filled with piddly little arguments that make a big difference :)

Toodles

DaemonReign
11-08-2010, 02:25
But wouldn't it make MORE sense to just roll 3d6 and take all 3?

Hehe.. I like your attitude.

The thought never struck me though.

I initially felt rolling 4d6 discard the lowest was the "best" merge of the colliding aspect of the Swiftstride (3d6) and the Icon (+1d6). It still seems fair to me - given all surrounding circumstances (one-use-only, only Bloodcrushers).

I'm well aware what the BrB says on Swiftstride. The interpretation of the Icon of Endless War together with Swiftstride isn't, however, specifically covered by this. "Add d6 to first charge move" can mean work out your Swiftstride then add a d6, but since Swiftstride could just as easily be said to actually be the charge move, adding that dice to the actual roll has an equal righteousness.

The solution of just rolling 3 dice and not discarding any of them is off-setting the rules of Swiftstride even more than my guesstimation.

Oh well, I'll let my buddies decide.. I only field Bloodcrushers to give them a laugh anyways..

SiNNiX
11-08-2010, 05:12
Taken directly from the Daemons of Chaos rulebook, page 95.

Icon of Endless War
This brass standard constantly drips blood, the smell of which quickly drives all of Khorne's followers mad with battle-lust.

"The unit adds D6" to its first charge move."

Taken directly from the Warhammer Rulebook, page 76.

Swiftstride
Just as not all warriors are not equal in their might and resolve, so too are some fleeter of foot (or hoof).

When charging, units entirely made of models with the Swiftstride special rule roll 3D6, discard the lowest result, and add the result to their Move value.



By an interpretation of the rules based on the exact wording of the Daemonic Gift, this would mean:
1. You roll the 3D6, discard the lowest result, add the result to your Move value, then add D6 to your charge move.

Example: You're charging with a unit of Bloodcrushers. You roll 3D6 and score a combined total of 12 (6, 4, and 2). You subtract the 2 which leaves you with 10. You then add this result to your Move value of 7 (for a result of 17). Finally, you roll a D6 and score a 3. Your final charge distance is a whopping 20"!

Was that GW enough for everyone? I actually had a fun time trying to sound as dumbed-down as I could, just like they do in their explanations (no complaints, just saying).

TheTrueSloth
11-08-2010, 06:48
*snip*


That's pretty good lol :)

It's also how I tried to point it out to the OP but I get the feeling he's less interested in what the rules actually say and more interested in what he wants the unit to do.

Toodles

FoolsJourney
11-08-2010, 16:31
It's even more complex than that though, isn't it? Because these things suffer from frenzy which throws open the thing even further...

So, assuming I fail a leadership and MUST declare a charge if in range, is the range the movement + the maximum attainable on 3D6-lowest D6 (so 12), or does the Icon get taken into account too?

If the icon does get included in the 'must charge if in range' distance, it has suddenly become a HUGE liability whichever way you look at it- unless you're very good at rolling 4 sixes.

TheTrueSloth
11-08-2010, 19:30
It's even more complex than that though, isn't it? Because these things suffer from frenzy which throws open the thing even further...

So, assuming I fail a leadership and MUST declare a charge if in range, is the range the movement + the maximum attainable on 3D6-lowest D6 (so 12), or does the Icon get taken into account too?

If the icon does get included in the 'must charge if in range' distance, it has suddenly become a HUGE liability whichever way you look at it- unless you're very good at rolling 4 sixes.

Well the Icon is pretty clear, you add the bonus die to the first charge - it doesn't matter what's caused you to charge, you just add the die. So I'd assume you'd take the 4th dice into account when working out if they're in range. So yeah, it is somewhat of a liability.

Except the army book for Daemons I have in front of me doesn't state they have Frenzy anywhere :)

Toodles

Col. Custard
11-08-2010, 19:40
Or you could just do like our Demon player here. To help with all the confusion, he just re-rolls the one die that rolled lowest and counts it as his +1 d6 for the banner. It is not exactly rocket surgery or brain science, it is just simplifying the R.A.W.

Granted it would be easier if the banner had a small FAQ to just re-roll the lowest d6 for Swiftstride. Sure it is just a house rule here, but it got us out of this shennanigan we have been dealing with.

Mr_Rose
11-08-2010, 19:51
Well the Icon is pretty clear, you add the bonus die to the first charge - it doesn't matter what's caused you to charge, you just add the die. So I'd assume you'd take the 4th dice into account when working out if they're in range. So yeah, it is somewhat of a liability.

Except the army book for Daemons I have in front of me doesn't state they have Frenzy anywhere :)
Yeah, I was just going to say; since when are Bloodcrushers (or anything in the Daemons book) frenzied?

TheTrueSloth
11-08-2010, 19:56
*snip*


Actually that's a really simple way of doing it, I'll have to remember that one :)



Yeah, I was just going to say; since when are Bloodcrushers (or anything in the Daemons book) frenzied?


That's a good point, apart from Skarbrand I don't think there is anything else that suffers from Frenzy in the daemon army book. Somehow I just thought there would be more :S

Oh well

Toodles

Col. Custard
11-08-2010, 20:13
Glad you liked it, and hell I though of that in 5 minutes and I have been playing fantasy for what...a little over a week. Guess sometimes it just takes a fresh pair of eyes and a disdain for making things harder than they actually are. I was just tired of hearing the same argument every time it came up.

FoolsJourney
11-08-2010, 20:30
Doh! Silly me- it's HATRED, not FRENZY they suffer from by default, isn't it? In a recent battle I fought they became frenzied as a result of a spell or some such, and so it came up- me confuddled mysel'. Ho hum. Just slap me on the way past...

Mike

T10
12-08-2010, 08:54
Or you could just do like our Demon player here. To help with all the confusion, he just re-rolls the one die that rolled lowest and counts it as his +1 d6 for the banner. It is not exactly rocket surgery or brain science, it is just simplifying the R.A.W.


But does he add all the dice together, or does he still pick the two highest?

E.g.: He rolls 1, 5 and 5. He re-rolls the 1 and gets 5. Does his unit charge 10 inches + Movement or 15 inches + Movement?

-T10

Damocles8
12-08-2010, 12:09
But does he add all the dice together, or does he still pick the two highest?

E.g.: He rolls 1, 5 and 5. He re-rolls the 1 and gets 5. Does his unit charge 10 inches + Movement or 15 inches + Movement?

-T10

I believe he intends to keep the dice