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Scribe of Khorne
09-08-2010, 16:50
Pretty simple idea here.

If you play, or enjoy the idea of Chaos Space marines, do you follow any particular legion, or are you more in favour of the current 4th edition renegade/warband approach?

EDIT: Legion Focus here, on the World Eaters.

Zweischneid
09-08-2010, 17:00
Voted both, for what it's worth :shifty:

Not sure if that was the aim of the poll.

Erwos
09-08-2010, 17:06
Voted both, for what it's worth :shifty:

Not sure if that was the aim of the poll.
And you should know, much as I bust your chops, I voted both, too.

Bloodknight
09-08-2010, 17:12
Legion Forces.

DG and WE.

Raven1
09-08-2010, 17:23
Personally I would like to see some Legion focus however fluff wise it should mostly more recent converts fighting against the Imperium. I mean all the regular ground troops.

However, there are still the Legion geneseed which will make recruits, assuming the do recruit, like the primarch. So, Legion geneseed like Iron Warrior will still make the marine like Perturabo.

Plus, even though most are broken down and are no where near the organization they had at the Heresy war bands can still have higher allegiances like Word Bearers striking it out on there own, but still would follow Lorgar, and the same with the Iron Warriors.

Scribe of Khorne
09-08-2010, 17:28
Voted both, for what it's worth :shifty:

Not sure if that was the aim of the poll.

The aim of the poll is to unscientifically determine if any of the 3 options is overwhelmingly favoured over any of the others.

At the end of the day, I will play my CSM berzkerer army as World Eaters until it simply is a non-viable army so it doesnt matter to me, but it is a question of if the Legion background is important to people as a factor in army selection and build.

Zanzibarthefirst
09-08-2010, 18:09
Legion Focus: DG, WE, TS, IW and EC. Codex legions woudl be great so a more indepth way of representing the legions, one unit doesnt really cut it

Soupcat
09-08-2010, 18:15
None presently, I like the idea of a khornate force but the world eaters just dont seem to cut it for me. So a pure khornate deamon force is it for me.

Thanatos_elNyx
09-08-2010, 18:18
Legions all the way baby.
I just love the story of the Thousand Sons, but for that I would not play CSM.

Morchaint The Red
09-08-2010, 18:20
legion focus WE TS and NL...even though they have nothing special they still rock :)

Vox-Grill
09-08-2010, 18:21
I love the legions! Night Lords and Word Bearers all the way! If it weren't for legions, my Chaos army would be up for bid on eBay as we speak.

Gimp
09-08-2010, 18:23
Legions all the way.

They are cool and already have some well established fluff (and a few models)

Not just DG, EC, WE and TS

But also BL, WB, IW, NL and AL as well

jamjam
09-08-2010, 18:23
Im of the opinion that any new csm codex should retain its renegade vibe but not if it means losing the flavour that the legions add.

Having said that i think the next csm codex should include traitor guard options, zombies ect, that way they would be a chaos army rather than marines who are wearing black

na' mean?

MarshallSam
09-08-2010, 18:28
I'm all for Legions!! The whole renegade vibe thing just feels a bit too small scale to make chaos the cancer of the Imperium. They bascially made CSM into Dark Eldar, performing raids on the Imperium for supplies and such. I think the next C:CSM should fluffwise be more focused on the EoT and the outcome of that. Make the Legions a real impending threat to the Imperium, not some traitor pirate wannabies.

totgeboren
09-08-2010, 18:34
I have been a fan of the Word Bearers since 2:ed, but none of the other chaos factions have ever really caught my attention.
I once entertained the thought of an none-chaos none-Imperial warband, but then the 4:ed codex came along and made that option almost non-playable.

The random-warband approach is well covered by just playing using the Black Legion army, like a DIY is often well covered by using the standard SM codex, which in essence is making an Ultramarine army and calling it something else.

However, renegades in my mind should not use reaper autocannons and have rhinos with combi-bolters. They really are more of a variant list for the SM codex than a variant of the CSM codex.

If they could include both, fine, but my main wish is for a Legion codex, with its focus on the Eye of Terror and the forces contained therein.

Lord Malorne
09-08-2010, 18:35
Both, I already know far more about the legions than any sane individual should, but I like when they have new stories, and with renegades, its all new!

barrangas
09-08-2010, 18:40
Both have their place in Chaos.

Megad00mer
09-08-2010, 18:55
I voted Legion focus. However, players should be able to represent a renegade chapter/company or Warband of their own devising as well.

The focus of the book should be brought back onto the big 9 Traitors, but that shouldn't stop anyone from creating their own home brew CSM army.

Amnar
09-08-2010, 19:02
I voted both, but to be honest, I prefer the warbands. The key here though is that we need customization options. While I like creating my own warband, I'd actually like to be able to set them apart besides just paint jobs..

Col_Festus
09-08-2010, 19:11
Its very interesting that this topic came up. My friend and I were just discussing this via email this morning.

Personally I would go legion focused all the way. The history, fluff, and depth behind the Legions is just as good (if not better) than Loyalist Chapters. I don't particularly find a Red Corsair anywhere near as interesting as a marine that possibly fought in the Great Crusade, or the Siege of Terra. Not to mention all the aesthetics like Power Armor Marks, and Heresy Era gear. I think Legion dexs could tap this very big (and profitable) market. I mean just look at all the pre-heresy stuff that pops up. Some people fork over loads of cash to FW, or other companies to make them. Imagine if GW took their model making skills and went to town on Chaos and pre-herseyesque armor/dreads/vehicles then twisted them to specific legions.. Pure awesome.

Lars Porsenna
09-08-2010, 20:33
I voted both, because that is what I think any new codex should cater to. But in truth I am strictly focused on the Legions, having playable World Eaters (biggest), Alpha legion, and Iron Warriors (second largest) forces.

Damon.

Waaagh Grignak
09-08-2010, 21:25
Legions all the way!

It really annoys me that the Red Corsairs are a chaos codex faction, when they rebelled 100-200yrs from present? They should be a much more like a marine army!

I dont know a single person in my area that plays a homebrew chaos faction, everyone has a legion force of some description.

One day gw will realise this and make us all happy, but that day is not today

Adra
09-08-2010, 22:28
I love legions and was very sad when the new codex gave no support for them. That said its always good to have the best of both worlds. Legions are great but they should be included as part of a codex that also alows you to jumble things up if you want and make your own forces. I mean deamons should be brought into the mix as well as legions and traitor guard....but wishes and horses and so on....

Jayden63
09-08-2010, 22:31
Legion focus for me. Anything without the Chaos gods in it is nothing but spiky marines. Its the gods/mutations that give chaos any flavor.

Heafstaag
09-08-2010, 22:35
I think both should be represented, but with a bit more emphasis on the Legions.

Brother Captain Lucian
09-08-2010, 22:38
Legion focus - Death Guard player here :)

Sister_Sin
09-08-2010, 23:19
World Eaters Legion. Nothing more, nothing less.

Sister Sin

Valek
09-08-2010, 23:24
Legion focus,

thousand sons

Garven Dreis
09-08-2010, 23:27
I voted both, because while I play Iron Warriors Legion, not everyone I know plays a Legion.

Dead.Blue.Clown
09-08-2010, 23:58
"Warband" is a word that generally gets a lot of misuse in this topic.

Ultimately, the Traitor Legions aren't the unified hordes that existed 10,000 years ago. They can still unite, and several of them aren't completely splintered, but very little exists to keep them united in a realistic way. The way a Marine Chapter sends its companies to different places, the Legions' warbands are independent of each other, pursuing their own goals as part of the greater Chaos offensive.

They're mostly broken up into factions, covenants, groups, companies, grand companies, and whatever else; even the Legions that are still "whole" are divided up into groups (the same way a Chapter is divided into separate companies, and the Guard is divided into regiments). The collective noun is a warband, under individual champions, warlords and other figures of great power and influence.

But the term warband seems to suffer like some kind of swear word since the last Chaos Codex, meaning Renegade Chapters or mixed units of various Chapters and legions, and somehow less valid.

EDIT: Faction-specific rules are always popular in games. That's the bottom line. But there are shades of grey. It's not "Everyone is broken up completely" versus "All the Legions are still together". And "warband" isn't some swear word to mean "Legionless nobodies."

Askari
10-08-2010, 00:07
"Warband" is a word that generally gets a lot of misuse in this topic.


Agreed. At the end of the day, we all play Warbands, none of us has a Legion, no, not even you (using you as a generic term for whoever wants to disagree), for it's an unfeasible amount of plastic to own.

That said, it's quite clear the Legions are what grip the Chaos community, and more emphasis on those Legions is what's wanted. They can do this without short-changing the Renegade players. Which is what everyone wants surely, the option for both, the focus (by this I meant codex space, background stories etc.) on Legions.

Sister_Sin
10-08-2010, 00:19
Good points. So I have a warband consisting entirely of World Eaters Legion Marines and their Dreadnoughts. :) Works for me.

Sister Sin

DuskRaider
10-08-2010, 00:25
If I could vote a million times, it would be Legions each time.

Dead.Blue.Clown
10-08-2010, 00:28
Good points. So I have a warband consisting entirely of World Eaters Legion Marines and their Dreadnoughts. :) Works for me.

Sister Sin

Works for me, too. (Except not with World Eaters. I mess up the symbol too much, and get in a bad mood with the whole world.)

Vaktathi
10-08-2010, 00:30
While I don't mind the "renegades" aspect, as an Iron Warriors player, it is the Chaos Legions, the heroes who built the Imperium and now fight to tear it down from the darkest corners of space in an unending war, fighting for hatred and spite and little else, that have much more appeal than the "we went on a power trip" renegade Space Marines.

It's difficult to reconcile the two forces as the books have always been based around Legion equipment being different from more modern "renegades". It makes little sense that newly renegade forces like those of Huron Blackheart would all of a sudden be sporting pre-heresy Reaper Autocannons and TL bolters instead of Assault Cannons and Storm Bolters.

Basically, the best way to do "Renegades" is just have C:SM marines with access to Chaos Icons and summoned Daemons and cut out the Special Characters and more esoteric things. Legions should be the ones with proper Marks and pre-heresy wargear and the like.

Scribe of Khorne
10-08-2010, 00:46
I suppose I should have defined Warband.

Warband in this case would not be a legion specific warband, but a random gathering of forces composed of anyone that the chaos lord could pull together.

Im quite aware that most of the legions have fragmented to greater or lesser degrees, but the intention of the poll is to display at the end of the day, if Chaos players identify more with a specific legion, and attempt to play that legion out (in personal legion specific warbands granted), or, if they mix and match, or play as Renegades (Red Corsairs).

I posted this because of all the other threads, where some people actually questioned if people cared about the Legions, and quite clearly the members of this forum do.

World Eater fan for over a decade, and I know an Iron Warrior player from 2nd, and an Abaddon following Black Legion player from 3.0. We all play our legion themed forces, mostly to the exclusion of any thing else.

Its not "Spiky Space Marines with Demons!!" or "Pirate Marines sticking it to the Emperor!" its the Legions that we play for.

Wyrmwood
10-08-2010, 01:08
It's interesting that no-one that voted for 'Renegades/Warband' (as in, not of a Legion - or a Marine from a Legion that has gathered renegade Chapters etc around him etc) has actually posted, purely those that voted for a Legion specific focus or both. Personally, I think that it should be a Legion focus (though like 'Dead.Blue.Clown' implied, it should be made clear that the Legions are no longer all functioning as such. It should also be made clear that there is a very desperate element to such warbands and the Legions as a whole) but with warbands not omitted totally. Elements of the current Codex should still remain.

Mekboy
10-08-2010, 03:24
Legions all the way, baby.

The Traitor Legions are what make CSM. The Death Guard have always been my favourite, their wargear looks awesome, Mortarion is the coolest primarch ever and their back story on barbarus is top notch. Iron Warriors are second, through a combination of the Storm of Iron novel, having hazard stripes everywhere and being artillery-tastic.

The codex should have always been focused on the 9 legions, preferably with a little mix of either daemons or LatD. LatD I don't mind so much, as the Blood Pact force I'm building suits the IG codex just fine. Renegades are a different story however, and have no place in the chaos codex.

If marines turn renegade, they should be used from the SM 'dex. Turning renegade doesn't mean you immediately head to your local rogue trader and swap your assault cannons for vintage M31 autocannons, dump your land speeders into the nearest sun, swap your Dreadnoughts nutrients with Viagra or immediately know of and then subsequently worship the big 4.

Renegades aren't always Chaos-worshippers. They can be deserters, pirates, mercenaries or any number of other things. The concept of renegades was made so that people wanted to play the bad guy but didnt want to feel pigeon-holed into collecting from 9 badass Legions. Unfortunately people lack the initiative and imagination to figure out an alternative.

And that ruined it for those loyal to legions.

Now I cant even play a full fledged DG force anymore because my basic troops are more resilient than my daemon prince, and my terminators are quaking in fear to make sure they don't drop their magic stick of +1 toughness. A stick that cost me 50 ******* points.

To quote something I read elsewhere "oops, looks like Bob dropped the stick, guess we don't really worship Nurgle".

Legions are what make Chaos Marines. Old, bitter, 10,000 year old veterans that have seen it all and are in it for themselves. Those that had the experience and the time to accumulate the daemonic gifts and wargear they had, and the rage instilled in them to be better than your average smurf because of 10,000 years of feeling ripped off. Each marine having his own agenda, having a deep hatred of the imperium, having been there when it was being formed and now trying to smash it to pieces.

Sorry to say it kids, but if you want to play renegades, use the SM codex. Legions it was, and Legions it should have remained.

Renegades ruined chaos. But then, I dont play CSM anymore.

Garven Dreis
10-08-2010, 03:42
"Warband" is a word that generally gets a lot of misuse in this topic.

Ultimately, the Traitor Legions aren't the unified hordes that existed 10,000 years ago. They can still unite, and several of them aren't completely splintered, but very little exists to keep them united in a realistic way. The way a Marine Chapter sends its companies to different places, the Legions' warbands are independent of each other, pursuing their own goals as part of the greater Chaos offensive.

They're mostly broken up into factions, covenants, groups, companies, grand companies, and whatever else; even the Legions that are still "whole" are divided up into groups (the same way a Chapter is divided into separate companies, and the Guard is divided into regiments). The collective noun is a warband, under individual champions, warlords and other figures of great power and influence.

But the term warband seems to suffer like some kind of swear word since the last Chaos Codex, meaning Renegade Chapters or mixed units of various Chapters and legions, and somehow less valid.

EDIT: Faction-specific rules are always popular in games. That's the bottom line. But there are shades of grey. It's not "Everyone is broken up completely" versus "All the Legions are still together". And "warband" isn't some swear word to mean "Legionless nobodies."

Very much agreed with this.

TheMav80
10-08-2010, 03:48
May as well ask if Space Marines would be as interesting without various chapters. It is the same thing.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Occulto
10-08-2010, 04:51
It's interesting that no-one that voted for 'Renegades/Warband' (as in, not of a Legion - or a Marine from a Legion that has gathered renegade Chapters etc around him etc) has actually posted, purely those that voted for a Legion specific focus or both. Personally, I think that it should be a Legion focus (though like 'Dead.Blue.Clown' implied, it should be made clear that the Legions are no longer all functioning as such. It should also be made clear that there is a very desperate element to such warbands and the Legions as a whole) but with warbands not omitted totally. Elements of the current Codex should still remain.

I have a non-Legion CSM army. (Brotherhood of Insanity)

I prefer making up my own colour schemes and fluff, so no one can point to my list and say: "well, you know that's not a real <insert army name> list because it includes <insert options>"

I get bored seeing the same Legions pop up all the time. People make their own Chapters, Septs, Craftworlds and Regiments all the time. But Chaos seems to be the army that produces so much less variety.

I'd still be interested in Chaos if they ditched Legions completely, the same way I'd still be interested in SM if they removed all references to the first founding chapters.

Bubble Ghost
10-08-2010, 05:43
You need both. The Legions are what give Chaos Space Marines their depth, while the eclectic warbands concept is what gives it width. Doing just one or the other would be like having a loyalist SM codex with either no chapters at all, or being told you were doing it wrong if you didn't pick one of 8 presets. This is how the CSM army deals with the "here's some we made earlier, you can copy these or make up your own" schtick that all armies do, as Occulto says.

The traitor legions need a bigger background presence more than they need a bigger rules presence (though some reflection in rules is what makes the background bite) - because unlike Warriors of Chaos in Warhammer, the Chaos Space Marines army is the story of the marines as much as it is of Chaos itself, and the tale of the legions and the Heresy is what gives it all its resonance. Even though the legions background does not directly concern renegades, it still benefits them by proxy - without the legions story nearby, the renegades seem more 2D and generic. I collect a renegade band and have no interest in legions in a gaming sense, but I doubt I'd be interested in Chaos at all without the fantastic story of the Heresy giving Chaos in 40K its teeth.

Born Again
10-08-2010, 08:44
Voted both. That's how it should be, clear and simple.


Legions all the way!

It really annoys me that the Red Corsairs are a chaos codex faction, when they rebelled 100-200yrs from present? They should be a much more like a marine army!

I dont know a single person in my area that plays a homebrew chaos faction, everyone has a legion force of some description.

One day gw will realise this and make us all happy, but that day is not today

There are several Red Corsair project logs just on this website. Surely making everyone happy would including keeping them happy, by doing both in the book.

ashc
10-08-2010, 09:33
Works for me, too. (Except not with World Eaters. I mess up the symbol too much, and get in a bad mood with the whole world.)

That's what Khorne wants you to do. :evilgrin:

I voted both, namely for this:


You need both. The Legions are what give Chaos Space Marines their depth, while the eclectic warbands concept is what gives it width.

and much else of what Bubble Ghost said. I think its very difficult (and would be daft!) to *just* have legions, although yes, the current codex feels as though the legions got swept under the carpet far too much.

Gutted
10-08-2010, 09:44
I wan't legions in, but what I don't want is Legion specific or cult special rules. I want a varied and balanced dex, where if you want to have a specific group you just pick the right units.

Usiel
10-08-2010, 13:35
I don't want to be gimped for choosing a heavily themed army. A strong legion focus would be cool. But then, freedom is awesome when the theme is one of your own.

But since I've always been enamoured with the Loyal and Chaos Legions of Space Marines, I voted Legion Focus. I'm sick of half assed vanilla armies. I think the Chapter focus Marine armies are way more visually engaging and fun to battle against.

But alas, opinion only makes demands of itself...

BLOOD FOR THE SKULL THRONE!!!

ChrisMurray
10-08-2010, 13:55
I voted for both. You should be able to make legion forces (maybe do it that a SC changes the FoC or makes certain god spacific units availible). But in terms of the fluff I like that GW moved the timeline along slightly to the point where the legions had more-a-less degenerated into smaller warbands. If only they'd move every codex along that would be great to see the fluff progressing.

Caelnaethon
10-08-2010, 14:38
Voted both, but if I had to come down firmly on one side or the other, I'd favour the Warbands. Do we want honestly want more uniformity in the forces of Chaos?

RunepriestRidcully
10-08-2010, 15:47
Legions - Specifically Thousand Sons, they have been fighting for 10,000 years against the imperium that scorned them for the're gifts whilst praising others, notably the Space Wolves, and then betrayed them, handy thing the rubric, keeping us alive all this time, and plus I am sure the sorcerers have found some way to prctically become immortal, so I am sure they should be a lot better then anyone in the imperium, especially the Space wolve in denail who call themselves Rune Priests. I am not interested in emo space Pirates with spikes on and various mental issues, if I was I would be playing Dark Eldar.

Chaosheade
10-08-2010, 16:14
I voted both because I like having lots of options. Sadly, the current codex is very bland and boring, but that's a topic that's been beaten to death and back again. I would love to see expanded options for all manner of legions, warbands, renegades, etc.

Earthbeard
10-08-2010, 16:55
I favour Legions more, but both have as much merit.

GW seems to swing around the roundabout willy nilly, with chaos sadly (Which i guess on a metaphoric level is the point :/ ).

Oguleth
10-08-2010, 17:18
Legions.

Lots of background and interesting themes... While the renegades just seem like some emo ex codex marines. Recent renegades stops using all their gear and starts hunting for millenia old gear to use instead? Right.

I'd rather see Renegades get some sort of spin on the regular SM codex (some upgrade and general rules changes), and Legion be the focus of a new CSM codex (since Daemons was taken out, some stuff like cultists, daemon engines and the like could be added in instead).

Warmaster Bill
10-08-2010, 17:55
Personally I would like to see a Legion codex with all of the Legions from the Heresy, more elite troop choices with skills refined from thousands of fighting. In a seperate codex I would like to see options for renegade marines and gaurd, with less of a focus on chaos and more ties to their loyalist counterparts. Maybe add some mutants and such to that codex as well.

I doubt GW would do it though.

IronNerd
10-08-2010, 18:38
I voted Legion focus (Iron Within! Iron Without!). However, with the current book, I don't play my legion. I really feel like I can't get a legion feel without something special to play along with. I don't need the next book to be legion focused, but at least kick it back to 3.5, or do it like the SM, and give me a page or two with some special way to bring my legion back.

Sister_Sin
10-08-2010, 18:40
I don't play my World Eaters Legion currently either, although I still build and paint additions to it. Until the wheel turns again they'll stay hidden away...coming forth stronger than when they left.

Sister Sin

weareblind
10-08-2010, 21:54
Both of them, there is space enough.

Fulgrim's Gimp
10-08-2010, 22:50
Legions all the way. Bitter,twisted remnants of the Age of Heresy rather than Long John Blackheart and his Space Pirates.

Finn
11-08-2010, 11:23
I don't think I'd be a Chaos player without the original "great fall" of mankind into the Heresy. The idea that Chaos is insidious and anybody can fall, while equally "terrifying" in its own way (somewhat analogous to the Cthulhu mythos and them not even noticing pathetic mortals), is just too subtle to be appealing to me in 40k. 40k isn't really about subtlety, it's about large, grand strokes and titanic factions that can never truly win over the other. The ever-present threat that any individual or small (relative to the entire 40k scale) force can fall to Chaos is a little anticlimactic.

Born2Rune
11-08-2010, 11:47
The history in the background of the Legions is just far more appealing, than a bunch of Ultramarines in (insert paint colour here) with spikes and worse wargear! No more hamstrung home made Legions from the renegade book, give us the meat - Chaos is always hungry, for we are LEGION :evilgrin:.

Sister_Sin
11-08-2010, 12:02
I think there is room for both options. It would take some doing and there would be screams from some quarter, there always are, but I think it is quite achievable overall. The background is what motivates me..the ancient history of the Imperium. The tragedies of the fall of so many Primarchs. All of it.

It doesn't have to be one or the other.

Sister Sin

Eariwin
17-08-2010, 11:46
I think the Legions of Chaos were much better at BG, compared to today's version of warbands.
In fact to put different units of divinity was the Black Legion. There was no reason to distort the structure of Codex, if not for the rules, too unbalanced to some Legions (Iron Warrior ???).

Today recreate a decent army of Legion is almost impossible.

Bloodriver
18-08-2010, 07:48
I answered "both". My CSM army was my entry into 40k, so I didn't have a strong enough background at first to commit to one Legion, but my next Chaos army will be Word Bearers. Hopefully the next Codex will provide a better basis for it than the current one.