PDA

View Full Version : Are Dogs of War armies allowed in 8th edition?



bluekitsune13
10-08-2010, 15:25
I've always wanted to create a Dogs of War army for Warhammer. It would give me plenty of chances to get creative. But I was wondering if it is still a viable army in the 8th edition. I'm sure it's not tournament legal, but I'm sure nobody would have problems with friendly games.

The thing I was thinking about is how many attacks pikemen could get! They normally fight in 4 ranks, which mean that with the new rules they would fight in 5 right? If you managed to have a large unit of 60, then you can fight in 6 ranks for a horde! Holy cow! Granted, that unit would be really unwieldy. But still, that's a lot of attacks!

Plus I like the theme of DOW. You have a mix match of different armies all coming together. Humans, Dwarves, Elves, Orcs, Ogres, etc. I know it was a low tier army in 7th, but does anyone think it would fare better in 8th?

Zaonite
10-08-2010, 15:35
The DoW rules were written for 6th ed. I suppose you could use the rules if your opponent agrees.
I think some of the models are still up for sale on the GW website, but I do believe they're meant as either collectors pieces or as proxies to add variation to an army. I don't think many people would have a problem with fighting them. So yeah, I say go for it. Conversions galore!

I do hope they will be redone in the future, but as a self contained army. Although I can't see it any time soon.

Lemonbrick
10-08-2010, 15:44
hordes of pikemen , 'giggles'

yes I believe you are right , 6 ranks of attacks ........
at +1 str if cav charge you........

I dont think there would be to many rules clashes and the expanded magic items section would be benifical.

Can't see any issue with the core regiments liike pikemen, crossmen, light and heavy cav, skirmishers, cannon, hotpots etc.....

many of which get better in the new rules, fire in 2 ranks, the paymaster as a bsb, artillery, volley fire....

There might be some clashes with the Regiments of renown.

I would fight DoW any day of the week, just my thoughts

Lemonbrick

Agoz
10-08-2010, 16:31
yeah, the dogs of war were pretty simple, but... they have lost all the ogre kingdoms units now that the ogre kingdoms units don't count as dogs of war any more.

but as for the DoW list itself, there really aren't any rules inconsistencies to work out, so the list should be fine.

Idle Scholar
10-08-2010, 16:44
No, and if you try then Matt Ward will turn up and smash your DoW army with a Warhammer with 'unsupported' inscribed on the side. :p





(they're just as legal now as they ever were, I can't see why anyone would have a problem with them especially in friendlies)

Commissar Vaughn
10-08-2010, 16:54
If you havnt already, go here: http://www.dogsofwaronline.com/

They can provide all the downloads too.

Ive only played one game with them in 8th but I managed to beat a WOC army...

Oh and the Horde of pikes sounds really good untill you realise that the horde rule isnt that good and steadfast is better, and also pikes are horribly overpriced. I prefer smaller units.

marakaelis
11-08-2010, 21:29
Just about anything Dogs of War can do, the Allies system (with a big of imagination) can do better. And if you want some mixing and matching, just play two or more armies (like Empire and Dwarfs, or Empire and Chaos, and/or with Ogres) and Ally them together, by yourselves. Page 136 of the big book. I dont think people would object to this in a friendly game. It could be fun.

Empire would be a good basis for a DoW army. Then add whatever your favourite units are. You could even ally High Elves as (somewhat superiour) pikes.

mistrmoon
11-08-2010, 21:39
I emailed GW about this last week, the official word is that DOW, Kislev, Chaos dwarfs and slayer cult are all still legal armies. We shouldn't expect any support or even an errata but they definitely haven't been 'squat' on yet.

SamVimes
11-08-2010, 21:49
Just about anything Dogs of War can do, the Allies system (with a big of imagination) can do better. And if you want some mixing and matching, just play two or more armies (like Empire and Dwarfs, or Empire and Chaos, and/or with Ogres) and Ally them together, by yourselves. Page 136 of the big book. I dont think people would object to this in a friendly game. It could be fun.

Empire would be a good basis for a DoW army. Then add whatever your favourite units are. You could even ally High Elves as (somewhat superiour) pikes.

You're joking, right? The sheer range of possibilities, and the fact that a few of their core units don't have an analogous unit in any book makes trying to make the army out of allies little more than a patchwork solution.

GodlessM
11-08-2010, 21:50
The real question isn't even whether they are viable, it is whether your opponent will agree to let you use them since they are no longer an official army. I would have no problem myself (unless it was a tournament) but I can't speak for everyone.

SamVimes
11-08-2010, 21:51
Out of curiosity, why would you have problems with them as an army in a tournament (not as additions to another army)?

Zaonite
11-08-2010, 22:05
Out of curiosity, why would you have problems with them as an army in a tournament (not as additions to another army)?

The problem with DoW and tournies is that tournaments really only use "offically supported armies". Since DoW haven't had a proper army book since 5th ed it isn't recognised as official.

bluemage
11-08-2010, 22:15
I don't understand why tournaments won't allow DoW. Its not like the army is competative, its just fun and interesting. A number of people expess and intersting in GW releasing new armies, right? So why get rid of the ones we have. Maybe some people don't want them in tournaments because they can't be bothered to read the rules or call a judge over to interprete something that needs an errata. But seriously fighting a DoW army is almost a free 20 nil. Just accept your good fortune to play against something interesting.

I say go for it.

yabbadabba
11-08-2010, 22:19
I don't understand why tournaments won't allow DoW. Are there rules for pikes in 8th?

jamano
11-08-2010, 22:20
I see alot of tournaments allow DoW, they just have to say so ahead of time. One thing you may forget is that most players are gonna have 0 idea what any of the DoW units do, which will slow down games.

Commissar Vaughn
11-08-2010, 22:22
LOL , most of them dont DO anything...which is probably the problem!

*to the tourny official "hey this guys cheating, he wont tell me what Volands Venators Special rules are!"

SamVimes
11-08-2010, 22:23
Are there rules for pikes in 8th?

There doesn't need to be as the rules for them are at the very beginning of the DOW list.

Halelel
11-08-2010, 22:23
I don't understand why tournaments won't allow DoW. Its not like the army is competative, its just fun and interesting.


That's pretty much the reason why they aren't allowed, it would basically give a free victory to whoever faced the army, as most tourney lists would annihilate a DoW list at this point. Than you add in all the little rules for each Regiment of Renown and it becomes a drag to play (Not saying DoW aren't competitive, just that they don't make very good tourney-style lists)

DoW are perfectly fine still in friendly games, as well as certain Storm of Chaos lists, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, Albion campaign characters, etc. etc.

Just make sure you and your opponent/friends go over what is acceptable first, rather than expecting to use your army no matter what. Some people just don't like fighting outdated lists, can't blame them for that, its just how they feel.

yabbadabba
11-08-2010, 22:30
There doesn't need to be as the rules for them are at the very beginning of the DOW list. For a 5th Ed ruleset yes? The game has changed and if the weapon doesn't exits in the BRB then there are no "official" rules for it. After all, surely what you are advocating is that if I choose, I could use any rule from a previous edition?

:DIt doesn't bother me either way, but its just one small example of why some tournaments may choose not to allow DoW.

bluemage
11-08-2010, 22:39
A lot of matches under 7th were almost automatic 20-nils.
Lizardmen were great against; high elves, non-siren song demons, warriors, skaven, orcs&goblins, beastmen and ogres.

Actually almost every army would 20-nil orcs&goblins, beastmen, and ogre kingdoms. Why not ban them from tournaments? Their rules are far more complicated then DoW, which has very few special rules. And because of animosity and all the units O&G is one of the slowest playing armies.

pililuk
11-08-2010, 22:39
yabba in that case is the ogre cathayan longsword in the book?
if not that cant be used in your reckoning as that was written for 6th i believe

Commissar Vaughn
11-08-2010, 22:40
For a 5th Ed ruleset yes? The game has changed and if the weapon doesn't exits in the BRB then there are no "official" rules for it. After all, surely what you are advocating is that if I choose, I could use any rule from a previous edition?

:DIt doesn't bother me either way, but its just one small example of why some tournaments may choose not to allow DoW.

There werent any rules for Pikes in the BRB then either, theyve ALWAYS been part of the DOW list. And the last printing was 6th/7th ed.


Than you add in all the little rules for each Regiment of Renown and it becomes a drag to play

What little special rules? Theres a couple of magic items, mostly for the fast cavalry and the skirmishers for some inexplicable reason, but the only one with anything other than normal rules is the cursed company.

decker_cky
11-08-2010, 22:40
For a 5th Ed ruleset yes? The game has changed and if the weapon doesn't exits in the BRB then there are no "official" rules for it. After all, surely what you are advocating is that if I choose, I could use any rule from a previous edition?

:DIt doesn't bother me either way, but its just one small example of why some tournaments may choose not to allow DoW.

The rules aren't for 5th (came out in 6th), or even really for 6th. The rules are for Dogs of War, whatever the legal ruleset is.

And your argument is ridiculous. Blow pipes for skinks are illegal by your rules (as are a number of other ones such as ensorcelled weapons for chaos knights).

bluemage
11-08-2010, 22:41
^ The brace of handguns isn't in the rulebook either.

SamVimes
11-08-2010, 22:41
For a 5th Ed ruleset yes? The game has changed and if the weapon doesn't exits in the BRB then there are no "official" rules for it. After all, surely what you are advocating is that if I choose, I could use any rule from a previous edition?

:DIt doesn't bother me either way, but its just one small example of why some tournaments may choose not to allow DoW.

No....from the official 6th edition DoW list. Y'know, the same edition that some of the other army books are from and follows the same construction rules as all current lists. If you really want to argue against using rules from a previous edition we wouldn't have any armies as of yet, since all of them are from 6th or 7th edition. And as the 6th edition list is the most up-to-date, official list, then yes, I have a hard time understanding what people have against them.

Edit: wow, super ninja'd

pililuk
11-08-2010, 22:45
No....from the official 6th edition DoW list. Y'know, the same edition that some of the other army books are from and follows the same construction rules as all current lists. If you really want to argue against using rules from a previous edition we wouldn't have any armies as of yet, since all of them are from 6th or 7th edition. And as the 6th edition list is the most up-to-date, official list, then yes, I have a hard time understanding what people have against them.

Edit: wow, super ninja'd

Id disagree with that i think beasts and skaven are 8th edition books

SamVimes
11-08-2010, 22:47
They were released in 7th and had the 7th edition construction rules in their books. They may have been made with 8th in mind, but they are not 8th edition released books.

Which is all getting away from the discussion at hand, DoW.

pililuk
11-08-2010, 22:47
But yes DOW are just as much a legal army as Ogres (same edition)

Bloodknight
11-08-2010, 22:52
For a 5th Ed ruleset yes? The game has changed and if the weapon doesn't exits in the BRB then there are no "official" rules for it. After all, surely what you are advocating is that if I choose, I could use any rule from a previous edition?

The DoW rules are from Chronicles 2003, and they have an "official" stamp on them. That is mid-to late 6th edition (the list is about as old as the Bretonnia and Tomb Kings army books). Note that neither the 5th nor 6th nor the 7th edition rulebook had rules for pikes.

Dark Elves don't even use the rules for repeater crossbows that were in the 7th edition rulebook, the only unit that did is a DoW unit ;).

Vandelan
11-08-2010, 22:55
I don't see anything gamebreaking or even confusing enough to warrant a FAQ from the DoW list.

If someone wants to play them, I don't see any reason for them not to do so.

yabbadabba
11-08-2010, 22:57
My, aren't we all touchy tonight - and lacking in reading skills as well. I said it wouldn't bother me, but obviously it bothers you all.

The main reason a tournament might not support DoW is because GW don't. They don't have a current inprint army book (that being my point about pikes - there are no current rules in a current army book or BRB in print). You can get some of the models from GW but not the whole range. In addition, there is no FAQ for them, indicating they weren't even playtested successfully with the new rules and are, currently, not a part of the new rules.

Bloodknight
11-08-2010, 22:58
The standard DoW list has no room for rules questions for an FAQ because everything but pikes is completely from the rulebook. Some of the RoR pose problems, but usually only if you have to do with unreasonable people (Mengil's poison is pretty much the only offender. That and the question what budget you'd pay for Asarnil from).


I said it wouldn't bother me, but obviously it bothers you all.

It does, because you were talking about a 5th edition ruleset, which it isn't. If it were we wouldn't ask (that would be like playing with the old Undead book with WS7 S5 T5 necromancers with 4 attacks ;)).


You can get some of the models from GW but not the whole range

IIRC the only parts of the range you don't get are Asarnil (who can easily be replaced by any Elf on a Dragon), Al Muktar's Desert Dogs (a pretty worthless unit that can be replaced by any fast cav unit) and the Hobgoblins (not a loss either, also easily replaced by standard Gobbos on wolves) and the Birdmen of Catrazza (which nobody in his right mind would take. That said, I've got a unit ;)).
Most of the army list was designed to be filled by generic units from the Empire and Dwarf range.

This is probably its biggest problem: I guess that there are quite a lot of DoW armies, but they don't show up on the sales figures...they show up as Empire, Dwarfs, Gobbos and Elves. Most people convert their pikemen from Empire state troops.

SamVimes
11-08-2010, 23:04
My, aren't we all touchy tonight - and lacking in reading skills as well. I said it wouldn't bother me, but obviously it bothers you all.

The main reason a tournament might not support DoW is because GW don't. They don't have a current inprint army book (that being my point about pikes - there are no current rules in a current army book or BRB in print). You can get some of the models from GW but not the whole range. In addition, there is no FAQ for them, indicating they weren't even playtested successfully with the new rules and are, currently, not a part of the new rules.

It must of bothered you enough that you thought posting a poor argument that was partially erroneous (saying the rules were 5th and not 6th) was worth your time and energy posting. No one is arguing that they are a supported army. (BTW, by your logic of having to be in print as a condition of legality would mean anything they put in WD would only be legal for 1-3 months, depending on how long the issue stayed on shelves) But there has never been anything in print that redacts the DoW armies legality as an official army, there is no reason for them to not be official. There are unresolved/unresolvable issues with some of the RoR, but there have been incidences of that within army books as well without making them illegal. Just generally un-takable.

yabbadabba
11-08-2010, 23:22
It must of bothered you enough that you thought posting a poor argument that was partially erroneous (saying the rules were 5th and not 6th) was worth your time and energy posting. No one is arguing that they are a supported army. (BTW, by your logic of having to be in print as a condition of legality would mean anything they put in WD would only be legal for 1-3 months, depending on how long the issue stayed on shelves) But there has never been anything in print that redacts the DoW armies legality as an official army, there is no reason for them to not be official. There are unresolved/unresolvable issues with some of the RoR, but there have been incidences of that within army books as well without making them illegal. Just generally un-takable.Then why aren't they supported by the GW Events team in the Throne of Skulls or the far more relaxed Battlefields events? GW want you to play DoW, just not at their events, like the Lustria Armies and the Storm of Chaos Armies (armies you can still buy far more models for than DoW), and the Forgeworld Armies. And my point about "in print" is GWs argument. My sig quite straight forwardly points out that I embrace as much breadth and personal control in the hobby as possible, I was answering a question about why DoW might not be allowed in a tournament.
And its not "illegal" for gods' sakes. There is no law covering this! "Official" is closer to accuracy.

As for the 5th vs 6th argument I couldn't give a toss - I am not sitting on the book, I havent memorised it and I have a lousy understanding of time, so a little understanding would be appreciated. I got the wrong edition but my point still stands.

edit: I picked up the 5th Ed from Zaonite's post.

GodlessM
11-08-2010, 23:32
I don't understand why tournaments won't allow DoW. Its not like the army is competative, its just fun and interesting. A number of people expess and intersting in GW releasing new armies, right? So why get rid of the ones we have. Maybe some people don't want them in tournaments because they can't be bothered to read the rules or call a judge over to interprete something that needs an errata. But seriously fighting a DoW army is almost a free 20 nil. Just accept your good fortune to play against something interesting.

I say go for it.

From my own experiences most tournies don't allow unofficial armies because being unofficial a lot of the participants, particularly those who joined the hobby at a time after the army book got dropped, haven't a clue what they are or anything about them and it can make for a unfair and slow match-up at times not to mention the type of WAAC player that might need a big win and will use such ignorance and exploit it.

Korraz
12-08-2010, 00:00
There's a difference between regular 6th Edition books and DoW. Ogres and so on are supported.
DoW are still "legal." They are as legal as any other army ever released. Legal is, what you will play against. Nothing has changed with that in 8th Edition. GW can't mindcontrol you out of using DoW or the SoC-Lists. In fact, they somewhat encourage it, as they still produce the Regiments of Renown.

Now, tournaments are something different. If the orga chooses to ban Wood Elves, they can. Nobody could stop them. The reason why Non Armybook Lists are banned most of the time are mentioned by GodlessM.
Some of those lists have very nasty holes in them. The DoW are pretty balanced and work great, but maybe there is some kind of "If we ban that, we have to ban all"-Mentality at work.

Shamutanti
12-08-2010, 00:35
I get why tournaments/events don't allow DoW armies, and it definatly isn't because of:


That's pretty much the reason why they aren't allowed, it would basically give a free victory to whoever faced the army,

What even makes you think that is a reason? Some people go to tournaments with completely uncompetitive lists, it's sometimes what they just have or it runs a certain theme/story behind it. Some people just want to play 6 games in a year because they have no other time/place to.

I personally welcome DoW armies. I often find them pretty to look at, generally very well painted and many come with funky little conversations. There isn't even much extra 'work' needed to sort the special rules out. Alot of it just means applying common sense.

Halelel
12-08-2010, 00:51
I get why tournaments/events don't allow DoW armies, and it definatly isn't because of:



What even makes you think that is a reason? Some people go to tournaments with completely uncompetitive lists, it's sometimes what they just have or it runs a certain theme/story behind it. Some people just want to play 6 games in a year because they have no other time/place to.

I personally welcome DoW armies. I often find them pretty to look at, generally very well painted and many come with funky little conversations. There isn't even much extra 'work' needed to sort the special rules out. Alot of it just means applying common sense.

You are insane if you pay for travel, lodging, and tourney placement just to show up with a uncompetitive list.

That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard of.

TheAmazingAntman
12-08-2010, 01:06
Two things:

First, I think most non-GW tournaments will still let you play your DoW list...if not, DoW can pretty easily be converted into an Empire army if anyone ever raises a fuss. Whenever you game just bring two lists, one Empire on DoW...if anyone raises a fuss your pikemen are now spearmen...tada! (I realize that this is completely inconvenient for you...but hey, dems’ the breaks)

Second, I actually think DoW got a lot more competitive under this rule set. Their have access to cheap wizards and artillery (and their cannons hurt more) and they now have a decent sized list of magic items.

Lastly, I wouldn’t horde up pikemen…sure you get a ton of attacks, but they are expensive and squishy…not a good combo for horde.

Commissar Vaughn
12-08-2010, 01:09
Lol...I must be insane then.

Bloodknight
12-08-2010, 01:19
You are insane if you pay for travel, lodging, and tourney placement just to show up with a uncompetitive list.

That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard of.

Some people go to tournaments mostly to play against people they don't know or usually don't play against. The most relaxed games are usually in the third third because people don't care much if they are ending up as 40th or 43rd. The last guy usually get's a prize, too ;).

So losing the first game is actually an option if you're not there for the overall. I usually only go for the fair play and painting prizes and end up somewhere in the middle in generalship. If you're playing in an 80 man tournament with a dozen of the best players of your nation it's pretty futile to fight for the win as a casual player who doesn't train twice a week or more often anyway.


First, I think most non-GW tournaments will still let you play your DoW list...if not, DoW can pretty easily be converted into an Empire army if anyone ever raises a fuss.

Yep, just bring a War Altar and one or two Steamtanks in addition and make people wish they could have played against DoW ;).

Shamutanti
12-08-2010, 01:37
You are insane if you pay for travel, lodging, and tourney placement just to show up with a uncompetitive list.

That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard of.

You must be insane to not of realised that a good chunk of people go to tournaments just to get games in. We don't all leave near GWs or locals, some of us can't attend the gaming sessions placed on by clubs or find our friends are always working different shifts to us.

I know some friends whose only chance to get a series of proper games in revolve around tournaments, an example being last years Mayhem tournament.

They don't go down the competitive side of things, they go because all that money pays for a weekend away, enjoying a hobby they love, in a hall full of fully painted armies with like minded individuals.

People dream or want to get high up the ladder sure, but I would be willing to bet only 50%, at the very most, of people who attend a tournament, do so because they want to win. There's obvious wishes to do well and score high, but it's not their purpose upon entry.

Halelel
12-08-2010, 02:57
Nothing backs up an argument better than using random made up statistics to try to make some sort of point. Where are you getting 50% or more of people attend tournaments with noncompetitive lists for the heck of it?

Seriously, I still don't understand why people would pay to go to a competitive list tournament just to play games for the heck of it. There are plenty of options if you want to get some games in, local clubs, friends, etc. Why not organize something online if you want to play random strangers, meet up at a store or house or something? With the wide variety of social networking sites, it wouldn't be difficult at all to find fellow gamers. If I'm playing just a casual all-comers list, I know I have much more fun playing with people I know while relaxing with some cheap greasy food and beer, as everyone knows we aren't playing seriously. I don't see the fun in playing a random stranger with a highly competitive list with a list of my own that doesn't stand a chance.

(And not to go too much farther off topic, but you are doing your fellow hobbyists a great disservice by showing up to a competitive list tournament with a bad list destined to lose every game as you end up skewing the results in favor of the gamers who play against you. Personally, I would be upset if I paid to go to a tournament and someone put down a non-competitive list, it basically tells me they don't care about this aspect of the hobby.)

I am failing to see any reasoning behind why you would purposely go to a gaming tournament to just lose, maybe it's different in Europe or something, but I don't remember the last U.S. tourney where I met someone who set up their army and basically said, "Hi, I'm here to lose, but have fun looking at my pretty themed army!" If you are going for painting competitions, well, that's different I suppose. However, that doesn't really pertain to the topic of the competitiveness of Dogs of War in tournament games.

Now this thread has gotten completely off topic, I apologize for that, but it just really gets on my nerves when people show up and purposely skew tournaments.

EDIT : I should clarify, I'm talking about large scale national tournaments, not local/store tournaments. I can agree with just casual lists in small friendly tournaments. I just don't like people who show up to a competitive list tournament with a non-competitive list, it just seems insulting to me, the organizers, and other players who take these tournaments seriously.

SamVimes
12-08-2010, 03:10
...blink...blink...really?

Most tournaments match up lists of relative power against each other first round and then break up the rest of the games into tiers of players, so I really can't understand all this ire against someone going to a tournament when they aren't expecting to win (or even do well).

As for DoW, I'm pretty sure I could come up with a pretty nasty list, especially as their magic item list just became good. It would definitely be artillery and super magic heavy, but it would still be competitive. It just would not be fun. At all.

Wakerofgods
12-08-2010, 03:16
For a 5th Ed ruleset yes? The game has changed and if the weapon doesn't exits in the BRB then there are no "official" rules for it. After all, surely what you are advocating is that if I choose, I could use any rule from a previous edition?

:DIt doesn't bother me either way, but its just one small example of why some tournaments may choose not to allow DoW.

No for a 6th edition ruleset.

My understanding was that any army rules 6th edition or later are 'legal' provided there are no later versions you could be using?

I thought dwarves, for example, were still using a 6th edition ruleset? Or if not them isn't there an army that is still using it's 6th ed army book? I know there is a difference between ravening (sp?) hordes and a proper 6th ed army book - but at least it's the right edition!

I think your point would stand if the DOW ruleset were 5th edition, but it isn't - it's 6th edition. However your more general point that there are good reasons not to allow DOW in a tournament for simplicity reasons, I think, is a strong point that stands even if your example dosen't.

EDIT:
I thought I would add to another aspect of this thread:
The last tournament I went to was just to have fun and get in a weekend of warhammer. I was in the 'middle of the pack', didn't have a 'competitive' list but managed a 50:50 win/loss ratio (against other 'middle of the pack'ers').
From where I'm sitting it seems obvious that many players (although I've only been to a few) go to tournaments just because they like the setting and idea and want to get a set of games in. Not because they are into the competitive enviroment.
Maybe your tournaments are different, I've only gone to four tournaments (probally small compared to yours too).

Commissar Vaughn
12-08-2010, 08:46
Seriously, I still don't understand why people would pay to go to a competitive list tournament just to play games for the heck of it. There are plenty of options if you want to get some games in, local clubs, friends, etc. Why not organize something online if you want to play random strangers, meet up at a store or house or something? With the wide variety of social networking sites, it wouldn't be difficult at all to find fellow gamers. If I'm playing just a casual all-comers list, I know I have much more fun playing with people I know while relaxing with some cheap greasy food and beer, as everyone knows we aren't playing seriously. I don't see the fun in playing a random stranger with a highly competitive list with a list of my own that doesn't stand a chance.

(And not to go too much farther off topic, but you are doing your fellow hobbyists a great disservice by showing up to a competitive list tournament with a bad list destined to lose every game as you end up skewing the results in favor of the gamers who play against you. Personally, I would be upset if I paid to go to a tournament and someone put down a non-competitive list, it basically tells me they don't care about this aspect of the hobby.)

I am failing to see any reasoning behind why you would purposely go to a gaming tournament to just lose, maybe it's different in Europe or something, but I don't remember the last U.S. tourney where I met someone who set up their army and basically said, "Hi, I'm here to lose, but have fun looking at my pretty themed army!" If you are going for painting competitions, well, that's different I suppose. However, that doesn't really pertain to the topic of the competitiveness of Dogs of War in tournament games.


Well its been a while since I played in anything other than a local tourney, but the last big one (more regional than national I suppose) I played, and lost to, (he had a very tough wood elf army) the eventual winner in the first round, but afterwards he congratulated me on tryng to use a balanced and fluffy army and trying to wn with it.

The point is not to take armies to lose, but to seek a greater challange: Yes your Uber-WAAC army might stand a better chance of winning but if I can manage to do better than you with a weaker army there is no doubt whatsoever who is the better general.

Some people are there for the easy win, some for the sheer hell of it, and some just want to give themselves a proper challange.

There is no glory for the guy who had it easy.

Halelel
12-08-2010, 10:03
Well its been a while since I played in anything other than a local tourney, but the last big one (more regional than national I suppose) I played, and lost to, (he had a very tough wood elf army) the eventual winner in the first round, but afterwards he congratulated me on tryng to use a balanced and fluffy army and trying to wn with it.

The point is not to take armies to lose, but to seek a greater challange: Yes your Uber-WAAC army might stand a better chance of winning but if I can manage to do better than you with a weaker army there is no doubt whatsoever who is the better general.

Some people are there for the easy win, some for the sheer hell of it, and some just want to give themselves a proper challange.

There is no glory for the guy who had it easy.

Going further offtopic, sorry again, but I actually agree with you. I have absolutely no qualms with anyone bringing a balanced competitive list. I'll backtrack a bit and say I was wrong about DoW not being as competitive as other armies in 8th, they do have the possibility to make at least an attempt at a balanced list. I still have concerns about how to rank them against opponents, but I can see the point how they can be Empire-ish (magic, cannons, ranged troops) in a sense.

Personally, I've brought my TK to a few 7th tournaments in the past few years and it hasn't been pretty, but I put as much effort as possible into playing a list that would at least make the game interesting and competitive. I just wouldn't feel right playing someone if I didn't at least make the effort to be a challenge.

On the same hand, I have a cavalry heavy 3k Kislev army that I have collected over the years, I like the army and it is fun to play casually, but it's not competitive in 8th. There is no way I would ever bring that army to a tournament, it just wouldn't lead to a very fun game for myself or my opponent.

I wouldn't call myself an "uber-waac" player, but I go to tournaments mainly for the challenge of playing against other good players. I don't approach tournaments as "win at all costs or else", but rather what strategies I can come up with on the fly to beat my opponents. To me, tournaments are the epitome of the gaming aspect of our hobby.

Personally, I don't find it fun playing against non-competitive lists, it doesn't make me a better player and it tends to not be very fun. There isn't a challenge if a person shows up with an army that basically stands no chance. As you said, there just isn't any glory for the guys who get the easy victories against non-competitive lists.

peterburstrom
12-08-2010, 11:30
Going further offtopic, sorry again, but I actually agree with you. I have absolutely no qualms with anyone bringing a balanced competitive list. I'll backtrack a bit and say I was wrong about DoW not being as competitive as other armies in 8th, they do have the possibility to make at least an attempt at a balanced list. I still have concerns about how to rank them against opponents, but I can see the point how they can be Empire-ish (magic, cannons, ranged troops) in a sense.

Personally, I've brought my TK to a few 7th tournaments in the past few years and it hasn't been pretty, but I put as much effort as possible into playing a list that would at least make the game interesting and competitive. I just wouldn't feel right playing someone if I didn't at least make the effort to be a challenge.

On the same hand, I have a cavalry heavy 3k Kislev army that I have collected over the years, I like the army and it is fun to play casually, but it's not competitive in 8th. There is no way I would ever bring that army to a tournament, it just wouldn't lead to a very fun game for myself or my opponent.

I wouldn't call myself an "uber-waac" player, but I go to tournaments mainly for the challenge of playing against other good players. I don't approach tournaments as "win at all costs or else", but rather what strategies I can come up with on the fly to beat my opponents. To me, tournaments are the epitome of the gaming aspect of our hobby.

Personally, I don't find it fun playing against non-competitive lists, it doesn't make me a better player and it tends to not be very fun. There isn't a challenge if a person shows up with an army that basically stands no chance. As you said, there just isn't any glory for the guys who get the easy victories against non-competitive lists.

I think that if everybody got into tournaments only hoping for the win, we would only see WAAC armies, and I would not attend them. Sure it is a challenge to win against one of those, but I like different challenges as well. An army designed to deal with Daemons is not necessarily good at dealing with Wood Elves.

A tournament is an opportunity for me to play against other armies than my close friends play. With that said, I bring my Tomb Kings and try to force wins whenever I can, and I really try to win, but I don't let my bloodlust clot my vision of having as much fun as possible. I think that this is the mentality that brings enjoyment to everybody into a tournament setting. Nobody goes there to lose all games, and nobody picks out armies to lose. We try to win, but in our own style, trying to make so-called sub-par choices to work, and so on.

Back on track, then: I recently converted my Dogs of War into Empire, and it works out all right, but with one glaring difference: Dogs of War pays 11 points for a guy on a horse with fast cavalry. These units are to die for. I had several, including the hobgoblins. Now, I don't really know wjat to do with them. My 10 Oglah Khan's recently found a couple of repeater handguns, so I play them as Outriders, but I want a cheap fast cavalry unit, as core, for Empire in order to truly convert the feel of my army.

Zark the Damned
12-08-2010, 11:59
We have several DOW armies at out LGC, no-one's had any problem with them so far.

There are only a few things which need clarification in the list, but this hasn't been a problem so far.

re the Birdmen, they got quite a boost in 8th. As a flying unit, they get to March 20" and still shoot :D - helps with march denial and harassing small units.

Bloodknight
12-08-2010, 12:06
The reason why I don't field the birdmen is simple: 5 of them cost 150 points, they're too weak to kill most races' warmachine crews (in 5th they had 2 ccw, why not now?) and a single fireball usually ends their existence. For their cost I get almost 3 units of fast cav.

peterburstrom
12-08-2010, 12:18
We have several DOW armies at out LGC, no-one's had any problem with them so far.

There are only a few things which need clarification in the list, but this hasn't been a problem so far.

re the Birdmen, they got quite a boost in 8th. As a flying unit, they get to March 20" and still shoot :D - helps with march denial and harassing small units.

Hehe, yeah, that surely would be a very small unit. And they got to shoot after moving their 20" earlier as well. March denial is even worse nowadays. If you use them to shoot at anything else than lone mages they're a waste of points.

rodmillard
12-08-2010, 15:21
The reason why I don't field the birdmen is simple: 5 of them cost 150 points, they're too weak to kill most races' warmachine crews (in 5th they had 2 ccw, why not now?) and a single fireball usually ends their existence. For their cost I get almost 3 units of fast cav.

I used to use the birdmen rules for "flying carpet riders" in my Araby themed list (empire + DoW). In 7th they were fantastic march blockers and flanking troops, if overpriced compared to the other options (but hey, they were mainly there for the fluff...).

I'm not sure how (or if) to use them in 8th. They don't have a standard, so they can't be used for objective grabbing, and as said one fireball (or any lore of heavens spell) and they're toast. Probably the only unit in the game that can be wiped out by an augment spell.

To get back to the main point, DoW are perfectly viable in 8th, its just that like the other armies still using 6th ed rules (TK, Ogres, Bretts, Wood Elves, Dwarves) they have to adapt much more than some of the newer lists. They can no longer take OK units, unless they take a full blown ally contingent, but that just means DoW ogres are a better choice (especially since they now get a stomp attack). Paymaster's Guard are probably the hardest hit of the generic units - give me a 5 or 6 deep unit of pikes any day: 4 ranks of S3 attacks with Steadfast > 2 ranks of S4 with Stubborn.

Zark the Damned
12-08-2010, 16:53
I don't think Paymaster's Bodyguard will be all that bad any more, they will make for a decent counter-charge/flanking unit. What used to make them bad for me was using up a vital Special slot!

TBH I think the main problem with the DOW list is the points values, lots of things are overcosted compared with modern books and could do with a pointsshave. Though apparently some Italian GW staff are working on a revision, so we shall see what they do.

Grimthug
12-08-2010, 17:19
[QUOTE=Halelel;4904805].



On the same hand, I have a cavalry heavy 3k Kislev army that I have collected over the years, I like the army and it is fun to play casually, but it's not competitive in 8th. There is no way I would ever bring that army to a tournament, it just wouldn't lead to a very fun game for myself or my opponent.


How do you field your Kislev? Do you use just the Kislev allied rule alone or do you match it up? I'm working on my own Kislev army and currently the best set up seemd to be Kislev allied for Kossars, Gryphon legion and horse archers and DOW for Lancers (generic heavy cav w/o barding), cannons (although I prefer the galloper guns) and ogres as big bears.

Grimthug

Pendragon
14-08-2010, 15:06
I'm not huge fan of the hellcannon, so I spiked up an empire cannon and fielded it as DoW for my WoC, haven't played a tourney (or even at a store) for years, so I'm not sure how it would be received outside my circle of friends/opponents. If I played someone I didn't know, I guess the polite thing would be to ask his permission first.

So far I've resisted the temptation to add crossbowmen. ;)

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a259/Penpenpen/Chaos/cannon.jpg

As for competitiveness, I'd never go to tourney to win. I'd go to HAVE FUN. Of course, winning would be a bonus, but I'd never field a list I didn't think was fun just to win. Of course, some people's definition of fun is "winning". Perhaps these people should remind themselves that they're playing with toy soldiers, and not being professional athletes.

/Joel

nas
15-08-2010, 23:50
[QUOTE=You are insane if you pay for travel, lodging, and tourney placement just to show up with a uncompetitive list.
That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard of. [/QUOTE]

Halalel you have your Game track record on your sig. He does'nt.
Same hobby but looked at from two opposite point of views.


On track. Here in sweden Dogs of War have been allowed at tournaments and one guy did even perform OK (think he came around 30th with 70 participants).

GFulls
16-08-2010, 00:24
old school Dogs was a great army.