PDA

View Full Version : Dark Elf Spearmen vs. Corsairs?



Venerable_Bede
10-08-2010, 19:50
What's the point of these two different troop types?

They're going to get the same aggregate number of attacks (assuming a frontage of 5) and have the same profile and armor saves.

Is the Slaver rule really worth 3 points per model?

Crovax20
10-08-2010, 19:52
dont the corsairs also have better defense against shooting?

Gazak Blacktoof
10-08-2010, 19:56
Corsairs are also better on the charge and need a smaller number of models to generate 3 attacks per model frontage. Not that it helps when the units are more expensive...

Venerable_Bede
10-08-2010, 20:01
Corsairs are also better on the charge and need a smaller number of models to generate 3 attacks per model frontage.

Oh, right, I forgot that spears don't fight 3 ranks deep when charging.
Thanks.

Tae
10-08-2010, 21:35
For 3 points more per model you get:

+1 AS vs shooting
Slavers Rule
Access to Frenzy banner
Equal number of attacks to Spearmen*
Requires less ranks to get same number of attacks
Get full attacks on the charge

So it depends what you want to use them for really but it is a viable choice between them now as opposed to 7th when they didn't really fill any role.

* 5 x 4 unit.
Corsairs get 11 attacks from front rank (2 x 5 +1 for champion) and 5 supporting = 16
Spearmen get 3 ranks of 5 plus 1 for a champion

Halelel
10-08-2010, 21:44
You can also swap out a hand weapon for handbows, which gives them an entirely different perspective on how to use them (mainly to guard flanks, stand and shoot reaction)

Lord Zarkov
10-08-2010, 22:26
And they also get twice as many attacks if flanked

xxRavenxx
10-08-2010, 22:51
And their models arent from 1992* :)



Its a big sticking point for me...




* actual release date of ***** spearmen may differ.

Amnar
10-08-2010, 23:16
I hated corsairs in 7th, I thought they blew. Now I run them with the frenzy banner and handbows 6x3. They can move and get 24 shots hitting on 4s. They're fantastic against stuff with low armour.

Aedes
10-08-2010, 23:28
For some strange reason I LOVE the corsair models, but I still prefer spearmen in my army...

meneroth
11-08-2010, 02:09
I dont know about you guys but i love corsairs for their chi. something about my unit of 18 but they just do work like no-ones buisness. the stats alone are comprable with spearmen, but they just seem to be luckyer models. I dunno, maybe mine are unique but im sure you guys have those units that perform above and beyond the call of duty, mine happen to be my boys in capes.

Hooha
11-08-2010, 04:27
I hated corsairs in 7th, I thought they blew. Now I run them with the frenzy banner and handbows 6x3. They can move and get 24 shots hitting on 4s. They're fantastic against stuff with low armour.

A big part of my 7th ed elven army was breaking enemy units with a Lokir-packing brick of corsairs, and bagging them for double victory points. It worked very well.

In 8th ed, they're almost useless in that respect (much, MUCH harder to find worthwhile targets that you can reliably expect to break and run down), and as such, I prefer spearmen.

decker_cky
11-08-2010, 05:49
I think corsairs are ok. Getting the extra attacks when you charge (aka when you have your rerolls) is very worthwhile. Adding an extra attack per model with the frenzy banner is great too.

But spearmen are cheaper. Taken on their combat qualities, I think there's still a marginally better deal for spearmen, but the important factor is that in 8th, being cheap has a huge value. Being steadfast, and more importantly, preventing your opponent from being steadfast is huge. DE still are great at hitting with shock troops and winning that first round, so you need ranks to make that mean something. So considering that niche, I don't think anything competes with spearmen.

Lord of Divine Slaughter
11-08-2010, 05:54
They're going to get the same aggregate number of attacks (assuming a frontage of 5) and have the same profile and armor saves.

Thats why you don't run them with a frontage of 5, but with a frontage of 7. This will give you 29 attacks, something you'd have to go horde to achieve with your spearmen.

Second, corsairs might be comparable in CC (no they're not ;)), but have a nice 4+ save vs. shooting. This ensures a safe vs. even blackpowder weapons, unlike the spearmen who just roll over. And again running them 7 wide will give your opponent a slimmer target to hit with his templates.

Slaver is probably nice, but its one of the rules I keep forgetting ;)

-

In short, spearmen and corsairs have very different roles on the field. Corsairs are killers and will maintain their punch for quite a while. Spearmen are great to hold the line and to benefit from the steadfast rule.

Corsair also serve as disruption troops and flankers, add some handbows to be annoying and then hit a flank to negate ranks and use the slaver rule.

-

They're different troops with different purposes, so if you're using them in the same way, then of course you will be disappointed with the performance of one of them.

A good way to learn tactics and how to use all your troops, instead of just the i-net min-max garbage lists, is to decide on using them, and then sit down and decide on the best way to field said unit - regardless of all other army choices - yes my army is filled with all the subpar choices *itch elves, executioners and corsairs, does very good and looks even better ;)

Axis
11-08-2010, 06:05
I was under the impression you didnt get hand weapon bonuses in 2nd rank...

So 7 wide corsairs will only have 22 attacks. Do i have it wrong?

Tourniquet
11-08-2010, 07:02
So i just started collecting DE.

This thread has been very useful!
I was wondering, would 2x 16 spearmen + 1x 15 Corsairs with Frenzy banner + bows be a good core force to build around? The spearmen hold the line while the Corsairs harry, and flank once combat has sbegun?

Scallat
11-08-2010, 07:14
I run a unit of 20 corsairs with the frenzy banner in my army and have done for a long time. They're about the only unit that I never regret taking. They just always perform for me.

The last game I played was the watch tower scenario where i had them assualt a building with 5 ogre bulls. The corsairs had flaming sword of rhuin on them and 31 attacks. They killed the entire unit before it could strike back.

Voss
11-08-2010, 07:22
I was under the impression you didnt get hand weapon bonuses in 2nd rank...

So 7 wide corsairs will only have 22 attacks. Do i have it wrong?

You are correct, but I think they're assuming the frenzy banner is in the unit, so 7x3 + 7 +champ

Mizeran
11-08-2010, 08:30
So i just started collecting DE.

This thread has been very useful!
I was wondering, would 2x 16 spearmen + 1x 15 Corsairs with Frenzy banner + bows be a good core force to build around? The spearmen hold the line while the Corsairs harry, and flank once combat has sbegun?

I'm in the exact same spot and I have already started with some RxBs and never really considered corsairs. In my case however I think Spearmens are more attractive from a gaming perspective since I just can get a big steadfast unit that can lock up something nasty that I dont want to waste any arrows on. On the other hand the corsair models are really nice and perhaps they could make the army more flexible (and fun to play).

Finarflin
11-08-2010, 08:32
I prefer corsairs, and always take a unit of 30. In 8th I would now usually add Sea Serpent Standard and a BSB. Then again I choose my main units on a fluffy or "cool model" reasons and make my tactics fit around that.

Aedes: you could always strap some shields onto corsairs and use them as warriors...

Gazak Blacktoof
11-08-2010, 08:38
Mizeran, I think that locking down units with steadfast is all well and good, and spearmen are certainly better at it than corsairs, but holding the enemy wont get you any VPs in and of itself.

I personally think there's room for both units in a list and swapping out some spears and crossbows for corsairs allows you to exert a more physical pressure. Even a small unit of corsairs can be a pain if left unchecked.

Mizeran
11-08-2010, 08:56
Mizeran, I think that locking down units with steadfast is all well and good, and spearmen are certainly better at it than corsairs, but holding the enemy wont get you any VPs in and of itself.

I personally think there's room for both units in a list and swapping out some spears and crossbows for corsairs allows you to exert a more physical pressure. Even a small unit of corsairs can be a pain if left unchecked.

Yeah, as I see it having something to lock down a nasty enemy unit is nice from a tactical perspective but you're definetely right that it alone doesn't secure any VPs. I pretty much agree with everything you say and really like the idea of a flexible corsair unit that can be used in a wide variety of roles!

major soma
11-08-2010, 09:05
I was under the impression you didnt get hand weapon bonuses in 2nd rank...

So 7 wide corsairs will only have 22 attacks. Do i have it wrong?

You are correct the second and subsequent ranks only get a supporting attack no matter their choice of weapon. Still having a front rank with multiple attacks is always nice ;)

Ah yes the frenzy banner is also a nice piece of kit my woodelves have been on the receiveing end of that combo.

Axis
11-08-2010, 14:46
You are correct, but I think they're assuming the frenzy banner is in the unit, so 7x3 + 7 +champ

Ah, yes. That makes a whole lot of sense. My mistake.

Creamster
11-08-2010, 14:56
I think the best advantage of corsairs is the frenzy banner; characters in the unit gain an extra attack for free. Meaning masters/assassins are on 4 attacks and DL are on 5. Giving them an extra attack with what ever magic weapon they are carrying can be very handy. Same can be done with the hydra banner for soo much more points. With the better save vs missles it makes them a much delivery system then spearmen.

Another point is that warriors lose attacks faster then corsairs. For a 5 frontage you need 15 models to provide the same attacks as 10 corsairs. This means they actually cost more (105 to 100) for the same offensive power. With wider frontage this increases - 6 is 12 corsairs / 18 warriors, 7 is 14 corsairs / 21 warriors. With better template weapons I can see more spearmen being hit (and they have weaker saves vs these templates as well) thus losing the important stedfast that they have been brought in for.

It is worth saying handbows are still a waste IMO. They have gotten a lot better and I can see the merit of 10 man units, but RXB w/shields will still perform better anyday of the week.

I do think though they are overpointed by 1 point compared to spearmen but spearmen are undercosted IMO. With the armour, weapons, stat line and hatred I think they should be 1 point more easily.

If you want stedfast and cancelling stedfast then take warriors. If you want to win combats then take corsairs. Its useful having stubborn but you aren't going to win many games with it...

Amnar
11-08-2010, 15:43
I've had good luck with the handbows, mainly because they hit on 4's. 24 shots hitting on 4's are pretty sweet.

Symrivven
11-08-2010, 16:01
I assume you field them 6*2 then, I wonder why, and not for example 5*2 (minimal) or 7*2(to increase frontage versus 5 wide)?

deggaroth
11-08-2010, 16:27
Another point that people have not yet mentioned is the fact that slavers may actually be useful. In 7th ed, the two top armies were VC/DOC, which happen to be the two armies slavers is useless against. In 8th ed, we supposedly will see a shift favoring horde/shooty armies such as Empire and Skaven, meaning we can use slavers. Granted, I doubt we will be seeing many DE armies, where the corsairs replaced the spearmen, entirely, since spearmen are still very good, but it may not be uncommon to see competitive armies with a unit of 15-20 frenzied corsairs.