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mrln68
10-08-2010, 22:34
Anyone else get annoyed by this?

Be nice to see an IG box that included an option or three for female guardsmen...

Right now I generally snag bits from Warhammer Fantasy and work with those or sculpt my own. However the Fantasy models, although they are clearly female chest pieces, tend to have the same oversized arms and no female heads. So...need to grab some high elf/wood elf heads (the Dark elves all look pretty manly too).

Metal increases the options - but not by much...at least not without a whole lot of cutting and grinding.

I have been toying with the idea of doing up an "Amazons" company (not savage Amazons, but all Female units), but the thought of all the boxed sets that I would have to buy just to get the parts needed makes my wallet hurt. There are some great options from other companies - but it seems GW is afraid of girls.

Heafstaag
10-08-2010, 22:43
No, it doesn't bother me at all.

MajorWesJanson
10-08-2010, 22:55
I want FW or GW to make a female regiment. FW can do lovely models in terms of detail, and GW would only need to make 3 plastic kits to pull it off. Command Squad, HW crew, Infantry.

GW could try to hit both demographics at once, by making a female greatcoat regiment...

Col. Dash
10-08-2010, 22:55
The Imperium has the same policy as the US gov when it comes to women in combat, thus aside from a manly Catachan woman falling through the cracks here and there, no women in the guard.

(BTW I am kidding, I know of no such Imperial policy, I think its just easier to sculpt men. Besides with body armor on and helmets theres not alot to differentiate a woman from a man with a rifle.)

The Custodian
10-08-2010, 23:00
with body armor on and helmets theres not alot to differentiate a woman from a man with a rifle.)

This

Also the imperium does allow women in the gaurd, however they are placed together in single sex regiments and only in rare cases are regiments mixed gender...

insectum7
10-08-2010, 23:21
They should just make plastic Sisters. That would make a lot of folks happy.

I imagine that the new DE will include a bunch of plastic fems too.

mrln68
11-08-2010, 00:14
(BTW I am kidding, I know of no such Imperial policy, I think its just easier to sculpt men. Besides with body armor on and helmets theres not alot to differentiate a woman from a man with a rifle.)

After serving in the military for 20 some odd years...there is a huge difference between men and women in body armor and helmets. Certain curves are always apparent - and of course there is the whole face thing - no actual plastic female heads, just elves who are passable.

Granted in power armor/rigid armor like carapace armor you would likely not notice the difference so much in the chest - but it would still notice the differences below the waist. That said - the only females GW does who are in rigid armor...well, you can tell they are female.

Forget which set of fluff it was, but basically it said that both men and women serve in the Guard/PDF forces without care for the sexes. Was either one of the BL IG reference books or maybe it was in one of the old IG codices.

Mostly though, I am looking for guard though, so power armor need not apply. And as far as the single sex regiments...kinda the point that I am after. There are a lot of great minis that would be fun to use, but the flexibility of plastic (as well as the times that I feel like playing GW hosted events) makes me just wish they would get off their butts and do something useful along these lines.

And yes - plastic sisters would be awesome...but not for this. Too much bling for bullet catchers.

LonelyPath
11-08-2010, 00:20
The current IG codex mentions planetary tithes to supply fresh troops and makes no mention of gender, so both would be grabbed from what I could imagine There are also mentions of increased tithes during larger scale warfare where most of the population is conscripted, in those cases you'd definitely have female IG. I'd also think, like modern day, female soldiers would serve alongside male.

Aedes
11-08-2010, 00:24
They should just make plastic Sisters. That would make a lot of folks happy.


Yes. I second that.

Chem-Dog
11-08-2010, 01:12
Also the imperium does allow women in the gaurd, however they are placed together in single sex regiments and only in rare cases are regiments mixed gender...

Actually, in all of the background material I've ever seen, single gender female regements seem to be in the minority in comparison to mixed.
That said, it's a planet of origin based cultural issue.



Granted in power armor/rigid armor like carapace armor you would likely not notice the difference so much in the chest - but it would still notice the differences below the waist. That said - the only females GW does who are in rigid armor...well, you can tell they are female.

That's because GW aren't in the business of making realistic life scale models, at the 28mm scale certain attributes have to be exagerated in order to be discernable, hence all females are slender in shape with an hourglass figure, ample bosoms, curvy hips and a big ole pouty set of lips.

But yes, an all/partially female regiment would be quite welcome. Perhaps the Mordant Acid Dogs. Even a couple of ladies jammed into a Command Squad box would be sufficient.

Denise
11-08-2010, 03:52
There are plenty of women in the IG, they just don't have boobalicious armor so you have to look really close to tell.

I am perfectly happy with the state of things.

Most people who want them are interested in all female armies anyways, which as interesting project but there is really already an all female army for people who want that. If GW started randomly putting breasts on tons of other models, I think I would stop playing entirely. That is not the type of game I want to play.

Disclaimer: I don't mean that I think that there shouldn't be women in the 40k armies... I just think that when people ask for them, they are really just asking for breasts on their models.

chromedog
11-08-2010, 04:32
Plastic sisters would be good.

They'd match up with the plastic 'girlfriends'. :D

[Sarcasm. I don't want them to make plastic sisters. They are a niche army for a reason. Metal miniatures test your mettle as a modeller. Given the abominations I've seen in plastic - I don't want to see that happen to them.]

I play eldar. We get boobies in our plastics anyway.

Cuda
11-08-2010, 04:44
Yes it does bother me. I have an old Female guardsmen with some type of heavy weapon (auto-cannon-flamer). On the bright side 3/4 of my Dark Eldar army is female. I have started a Sisters army and if you can consider Deamonettes female, well I have tons of them!
No, I'm not looking for breasts (allthough it helps) but there was a lot of heroic females in history (Annie Oakley rarely missed her target). I love painting female models, more of a challenge and a lot more rewarding.

Cuda...(here's to the plastic Sisters...hic)

mrln68
11-08-2010, 05:17
Mostly looking for something different, and as Cuda said - it isn't about breats. At least for me it isn't (I am sure there are some who get giddy over breasts on 1" minis though).

http://www.urbanmammoth.co.uk/acatalog/info_13105.html

http://www.urbanmammoth.co.uk/acatalog/info_13109.html

While it is obvious that those two do have breasts - it isn't the breasts that make it obvious that they are female (contrary to what GW seems to think). Wider hips, narrower waists - softer faces.

TheMav80
11-08-2010, 05:55
There are some metal female Tanith First and Only Models.

barrangas
11-08-2010, 06:44
Most people who want them are interested in all female armies anyways, which as interesting project but there is really already an all female army for people who want that.

I don't think this is the case. I think it's more that it's a sci-fi game and most people expect there to be more gender equality in their sci-fi. Take a look at WHFB. In a setting that's based off of a period of time when women were almost unheard of on the battle field, It seems that there are a lot of female SCs in the game. More so then in 40k. Given the 40k setting, why wouldn't there be one or two women in an IG squad?

On the other hand I find the SoB a rather silly concept. I've got no problem with a crazy fanatic army, but all women?

ehlijen
11-08-2010, 07:04
I don't think this is the case. I think it's more that it's a sci-fi game and most people expect there to be more gender equality in their sci-fi. Take a look at WHFB. In a setting that's based off of a period of time when women were almost unheard of on the battle field, It seems that there are a lot of female SCs in the game. More so then in 40k. Given the 40k setting, why wouldn't there be one or two women in an IG squad?

On the other hand I find the SoB a rather silly concept. I've got no problem with a crazy fanatic army, but all women?

But then again, gender equality is often considered an advanced trait of civilisation, along with a desire for peace, outlawing of child labour, unions, freedom of faith...all things the 40k universe also lacks deliberately in order to make with the bleak and dark.

40k is not scifi, it's the dark ages in space. Ie, on the timeline of civilsation (as taught in most western history classes), 40k is even less advanced than the Empire in Fantasy. All male armies are perfectly reasonable in such a setting.

And the SOB isn't so much a concept of 'hey let's make an all female army' as it was 'hey let's take the 'no man can slay him' trope to its obvious conclusion'.

edit: something's wierd. I tried to edit the misspelled 'civilisation' above but it keeps coming back as 'civilsation'...?

Gutted
11-08-2010, 07:49
But then again, gender equality is often considered an advanced trait of civilisation, along with a desire for peace, outlawing of child labour, unions, freedom of faith...all things the 40k universe also lacks deliberately in order to make with the bleak and dark.

40k is not scifi, it's the dark ages in space. Ie, on the timeline of civilsation (as taught in most western history classes), 40k is even less advanced than the Empire in Fantasy. All male armies are perfectly reasonable in such a setting.

And the SOB isn't so much a concept of 'hey let's make an all female army' as it was 'hey let's take the 'no man can slay him' trope to its obvious conclusion'.

Good argument and I argee with the dark age theme, but the setting does say guard and cultists come in both sexes. To the Imperium humanity is the cheapest and most expendable resource they have and they just don't care much about gender outside of religious orders and genetically engineering super soldiers.

That being said, I think GW isn't particularly good at sculpting female modes (sisters are pretty good though) and the heroic scale does them few favours.

ehlijen
11-08-2010, 10:26
Also, while the space elves have the natural androginy thing going, humans would need seperate arms, legs and heads at the very least, to make female models. The Torso, at least with the cadian solid chest piece, could stay the same, but we're still at the point of needing significant numbers of extra bits that aren't freely usable accross the range for conversions.

Basically, I think GW would rather add more options or conversion bits in the sets than the means to add one or two girls per guardsman box. And I think that's a good idea.

Plastic sisters coud well happen, if they're popular enough. I don't think they are as of now, but they did the first step with the immolator turret already (it has most of a plastic sister moulded into it). More could follow.

Godzooky
11-08-2010, 11:08
This is exactly the reason Sir Wilberforce Greenstufferson created Green Stuff in 1875. He foresaw the future overwhelming need within the collective nerd-unconscious for massive, unwieldy round bewbs on small science fiction models. ;)

Sai-Lauren
11-08-2010, 12:30
I have an Escher guard army. :)

Theoretically, as women tend to be smaller and skinnier than men (given the same diet, physical fitness levels and so on), so they would be better suited to operating in more confined spaces, such as tank crews, in specialised tunnel fighter regiments and so on.

Plus there's all the specialists that could easily be women - Psykers (eg, the Mordheim Sigmarite Augur), Priests (the rest of the Mordheim Sigmarites) , Commissars (the female one's long OOP though unfortunatly), even Tech Priests (there's a female one in a couple of the Cain novels, and I doubt the AM is a chauvanistic organisation - although there'd probably not be a lot of feminity left in one). Or, instead of an army medic, put the Sister Hospitalier from the Witch Hunters retinue in a Guard Command squad.

They could also be recruited alongside a normal guard regiment raising, but assigned to combat support duties at army level (such as medical, C3 orderlies etc, intelligence, MP's, transport pool drivers and so on). Plus they could well be recruited into non-Guard forces like the Officio Sabatorum, Imperial Intelligence and so on.

mrln68
11-08-2010, 15:05
Yah - I have done armies using fantasy/specialist games metal minis. I have also done a few units which involve removing all the extra crap from SoB minis to make them suitable for use as guardsmen.

The issue for me is that when dealing with a full army like the guard, you need a lot of miniatures - and although I started out years ago doing metal conversions...now it has gotten to the point where time is a valuable commodity, and doing even simple conversions with metal take a lot longer than doing the same conversion using plastics. Smaller armies, I don't mind working with metal so much - but when you are looking at 50-100 miniatures, all of which need work done to make them fit and to make each one dynamic...metal is right out.

Chem-Dog
11-08-2010, 15:32
I don't want them to make plastic sisters. They are a niche army for a reason. Metal miniatures test your mettle as a modeller. Given the abominations I've seen in plastic - I don't want to see that happen to them.

I was of the same mind until quite recently, given some of the splendid plastic kits released in recent months, I personally would love to see what they can do with the sisters.



Plastic sisters coud well happen, if they're popular enough. I don't think they are as of now

ONLY because they're a 99% metal army.



Theoretically, as women tend to be smaller and skinnier than men (given the same diet, physical fitness levels and so on), so they would be better suited to operating in more confined spaces, such as tank crews, in specialised tunnel fighter regiments and so on.

You're presuming an awful lot of galactic oversight on behalf of the Imperuim here, and ignoring 38 000 years of evolutionary variation from planet to planet. While I'm not arguing with the basis of what you're saying, it's entirely possible that females of a particular planetary population could easily be as big and muscular as males and quite possibly more so given any number af factors.
For example, I suspect tha Catachan females would tend to be just as hench as their male counterparts, nor would I expect any 'Chan female to recieve any kind of preferential treatment with regards to combat duty.

gwarsh41
11-08-2010, 15:38
I was going to mention that women have an entire army and some sweet sweet models too. Alas, it has been done several times.

I will admit, once upon a time I was tempted to make some crazy army with weird disturbing backstory for the sisters and use the SW codex. I think that it was a bit too... well... disturbing.(hint: they let gimp out of the box)

Hey, they could always be like "Let's make remembrancers!!!!" and you could drop down some artists onto the battlefield to quiver and cry each time a bolter is fired off.

ehlijen
11-08-2010, 15:51
ONLY because they're a 99% metal army.


Very likely a main factor, but I don't think it's as absolute as you say.

At least at the moment the lack of an up to date codex is just as big an issue. Part of that is that it's not just the metal that makes them a niche army. They are also deliberately constructed as an army to lack certain key elements which they are supposed to fill in with =I= units and allies. Pure sisters are better than pure Grey knights, but they do still lack certain tools most other armies can bring.

If they are not popular enough as metals to stay on the shelves (and they don't seem to in the GW I go to), than it's not just the metal status that's keeping them from being plastic.

mrln68
11-08-2010, 16:23
Going into the ditch a bit...

Often debated topic - why is one army more popular than another? Marketing, models or rules?

The SoB are really a very solid army as is. They have some great anti-tank capabilities, both in the vehicles and in infantry squads. They can deal with mobs pretty well, are more survivable than most guardsmen and have a better chance of hitting their targets. If you take them as infantry blobs they are hard to move off objectives (up to 20 per unit). If you like mechanized armies everyone can be mounted up in Rhinos or Imolators (a nice vehicle in and of itself). They aren't new and shiny - but they are still very capable (I had my highest win/loss ratio with my SoB army prior to 5th Ed. and there weren't too many rules changes that worked against them).

The models are awesome. I think they are still probably some of my favorite of all. However they are metal - and there are a lot of people who don't like metal at all. More difficult to work with. More difficult to convert and far from as inexpensive (especially since the new price hike on SoB from GW) as plastic. Since they are a relatively inexpensive army in terms of points costs - they are a very expensive army in terms of dollars spent. Also, the range still isn't complete. I laugh when players lement not having all the models from the most recent Codex when Witch Hunters are still waiting for models from a Codex that is 7 some odd years old.

Marketing? Think this is the big one. There are a lot of armies which could be very popular but aren't. Since the armies are featured front and center often (or ever in some cases) it is not much of a surprise that the army doesn't sell as many units as, say...Ultra Smurfs or Nids or Orks. If GW would go through and actually, I don't know, use a magazine maybe and do a different army featured every month - you would likely see a much larger variety of armies.

I remember way back in the day when White Dwarf was a GW Hobby Magazine as opposed to a GW Sales Flyer you used to see a lot more different armies in local stores and tournaments. Now there is a lot of the Army of the month club...which ever Space Marine chapter got something new and shiney.

barrangas
11-08-2010, 16:49
But then again, gender equality is often considered an advanced trait of civilisation, along with a desire for peace, outlawing of child labour, unions, freedom of faith...all things the 40k universe also lacks deliberately in order to make with the bleak and dark.

40k is not scifi, it's the dark ages in space. Ie, on the timeline of civilsation (as taught in most western history classes), 40k is even less advanced than the Empire in Fantasy. All male armies are perfectly reasonable in such a setting.

And the SOB isn't so much a concept of 'hey let's make an all female army' as it was 'hey let's take the 'no man can slay him' trope to its obvious conclusion'.

edit: something's wierd. I tried to edit the misspelled 'civilisation' above but it keeps coming back as 'civilsation'...?

I'm going to have to disagree with you, 40k is very much sci-fi. That's how I've heard it described to new customers in GW Stores, a Sci-fi Minitures Game. Sure it's got a dark age theme, but it's still at its core is a Sci-fi setting. Battletech setting was essentially the middle ages in space but at it's core its about giant robots fighting each other.

Honestly I see the idea that they don't have women as a way of sanitizing the grim and bleak nature. Our society is hardwired to protect woman and children ("Women and children first!"). You remove that element by showing a government that doesn't care who is killed in service to it and it becomes worse. In 40k fiction it shows this mentallity from the Imperium, though I think they could be much darker. Honestly, if I wanted to portray a grim and dark future there would be the young, the old, male, and female represented in models.

Setting wise it makes sense to have female IG and it would add some variety to the models.

I also disagree with you on the SoB, but that's clearly a difference of opinion.

Chem-Dog
11-08-2010, 16:52
Very likely a main factor, but I don't think it's as absolute as you say.

At least at the moment the lack of an up to date codex is just as big an issue. Part of that is that it's not just the metal that makes them a niche army. They are also deliberately constructed as an army to lack certain key elements which they are supposed to fill in with =I= units and allies. Pure sisters are better than pure Grey knights, but they do still lack certain tools most other armies can bring.

If they are not popular enough as metals to stay on the shelves (and they don't seem to in the GW I go to), than it's not just the metal status that's keeping them from being plastic.

I've constructed an on paper SoB list quite a few times since the release of the Codex and never been able to justify the expendiature, I have a regular gaming buddy who just recently scrubbed the idea of a 500 point combat patrol army for the same reason.
I may be in a strange (and I would argue, fortunate) little area where players only seem to pick armies for their look and feel rather than playability and up-to-date-ness but when considering playability, it's worth looking at some of the more essential components and their cost in filthy hard lucre, the main HS choice for SoB purists has to be the Exorcist which holds the dubious accolade of being the only Citadel Miniatures kit that is more expensive than it's (much older) FW counterpart.
Even fundamentally essential choices are ehorbitantly priced, the GW site doesn't currently list the SoB Battle Sisters Boxed set meaning that a player who decides to check his written list against cost on the website (that's what the basket's for isn't it?! :shifty: ) will be shocked to discover that a basic squad of 10 sisters with no significant upgrades (certainly not what one would pick as a playable unit) weighs in at a stunning 39, significantly more if you start adding Imagifers and Heavy/Special weapons.

All of which is a long-winded way of saying, yes ok some people might disregard the Sororitas as an uncompetative army, but if that was the only issue we'd be seeing a regular stream of "Sisters counting as <insert SM chapter flavour of the Month>" threads, but we don't.

Nezalhualixtlan
11-08-2010, 17:14
GW could try to hit both demographics at once, by making a female greatcoat regiment...

That would be really cool. Plastic Sisters would be good too, but a female greatcoat IG regiment would be awesome, sort of like the OOP Female Commissar, only plastic and with the better more modern aesthetics that GW creates their models with these days.

Scribe of Khorne
11-08-2010, 17:17
Is there a set of female plastic arms? Even if I have to buy boxes I dont want. Something like the witch elves or something in plastic?

Sai-Lauren
11-08-2010, 17:31
You're presuming an awful lot of galactic oversight on behalf of the Imperuim here, and ignoring 38 000 years of evolutionary variation from planet to planet. While I'm not arguing with the basis of what you're saying, it's entirely possible that females of a particular planetary population could easily be as big and muscular as males and quite possibly more so given any number af factors.
For example, I suspect tha Catachan females would tend to be just as hench as their male counterparts, nor would I expect any 'Chan female to recieve any kind of preferential treatment with regards to combat duty.
I did say tend to be - the Escher's themselves provide an example of weak and wimpy males. :)

But evolution would really affect both genders equally from their original base state (admittedly, they're likely to have been tough individuals that formed colonies in the first place) - but if Catachan women are 10% more muscular than one from say Cadia, the men would also be 10% more muscular than Cadian men, so by comparision, Catachan women are still smaller than the men, although they're probably the same size as Cadian men.

And with the Imperium's anti-mutant policies any real deviation from the "human norm" wouldn't be tolerated (Ratlings and Ogryn are still deemed useful, but they're only just tolerated) and I wouldn't put it past them to have cleansed some worlds and resettled them with "purer" humans - even during the Great Crusade. Plus I believe in a lot more personal interplanetary travel than a lot of people, which will spread genes around a bit more, and minimise the environmental effects to an extent.

mrln68
11-08-2010, 17:32
As of yet - no. There are no Female plastic heads, arms or legs.

The adrogenous elves though offer up there body parts quite often though. High and wood elf heads look sufficiently feminine that they pass as human female heads. Same goes for the arms and to some extent the legs. I would have to pull out the bits box to see what all I have that works well enough though. Wood elves and High elf infantry for sure though.

The issue is with the chest. Since the other curves are not present on the minis - the only way to really make them obvious females is with the chest portion. The chests which are avialable are workable for non-standard IG armies. You can do a fair amount of work to make them work with something like the Cadians standard gear though. There are also options like the TIN bits Cadian upgrade kits...though it would be nice to see something from GW to fill this hole.

LonelyPath
11-08-2010, 17:44
If they are not popular enough as metals to stay on the shelves (and they don't seem to in the GW I go to), than it's not just the metal status that's keeping them from being plastic.

Actually, when the WH and DH ranges were pulled from shelves I spoke to a number of people at GW and they all stated the same thing, the reason they were pulled was due to them having to use out of date rules sets and codecis. It had nothing to do with popularity or the material they were made from.

SoB armies are also still quite popular, certainly popular enough to warrant plastics, they just aren't as popular as Orks, SM, CSM, IG and Eldar, which make up most of the armies presently spotted at events.

gwarsh41
11-08-2010, 17:49
Going into the ditch a bit...

Often debated topic - why is one army more popular than another? Marketing, models or rules?




What about fluff? back story is why I will not pick up certain armies, they just dont appeal to me. Sisters have a pipe organ of doom. I think that is one of the top 5 coolest things in the game. The story doesnt work for me..

They are also expensive via being all metla.

mrln68
11-08-2010, 21:26
I don't know - maybe it is just me, but the SoB fluff (and most the Inquisition) tends to be better thought out and implemented than the vast majority of other armies (with the exception of Chaos...and a lot of the Chaos stuff is "just cause"). While you personally might not care for the fluff - the back story is solid, and the overall purpose is fairly well implemented. I think I can count on one hand the number of people I have talked to who really do not like the background or the models.


They are also expensive via being all metla.

Being all metal for the price is a cop out on the part of GW. Materials cost is the largest portion of metal miniatures, and when you can get a full box of GK terminators for less than you can get the equivalent of a box of SoB (the old squad box has been removed from the GW website and the GKT weigh more) it doesn't quite pass the sniff test. For whatever reason GW is pushing the SoB out of the market. If they plan on rereleasing them in the future or are just hoping they fade away and they don't have to have a Hive Fleet eat them all as they had done in the past - I don't know. However just being metal is not reason enough for the added cost.

It becomes even more apparent when you compare them to other similar metal miniatures which often cost half as much or less.

Chem-Dog
11-08-2010, 21:50
I did say tend to be - the Escher's themselves provide an example of weak and wimpy males. :)

Dribbling and imbecilic I believe, doesn't bear imagining how they manage to *ahem* continue the family line :shifty:


But evolution would really affect both genders equally from their original base state (admittedly, they're likely to have been tough individuals that formed colonies in the first place) - but if Catachan women are 10% more muscular than one from say Cadia, the men would also be 10% more muscular than Cadian men, so by comparision, Catachan women are still smaller than the men, although they're probably the same size as Cadian men.

This dosen't necessarily follow, although I agree that if environmentally promoted "survival of the fittest" style selection were the only deciding factor you'd probably be right but there's Sexual Selection too, I could see the Catachan, being a hardy, determined society prizing physical prowess and strength over all else and within a couple of dozen generations women who have a very similar physique you know the sort of thing I'm talking about, we usually see them in some kind of athletics arena having to undergo various examinations so as to ascertain their gender.


And with the Imperium's anti-mutant policies any real deviation from the "human norm" wouldn't be tolerated (Ratlings and Ogryn are still deemed useful, but they're only just tolerated) and I wouldn't put it past them to have cleansed some worlds and resettled them with "purer" humans - even during the Great Crusade. Plus I believe in a lot more personal interplanetary travel than a lot of people, which will spread genes around a bit more, and minimise the environmental effects to an extent.

There's a big difference between being a woman who looks like a man and having 13 eyes, snake teeth and a second head, I'm talking about a society that prizes a different set of physical attributes to those we would today.
Even assuming a Crusade era purge and resettle, we're talking about another 10 000 years of environmental and culturally charged change. We're regularly given examples of specific planets within the Imperium where a specific physical characteristic (for example skin colour) is entirely the norm, it's not a huge leap to assume that other quantifiable human extremes in physicality are just as likely and widespread.

I'll stop there as I'm getting wildly off topic :D

IcedAnimals
11-08-2010, 23:39
Harry confirmed that the next sisters of battle codex has been started already. When it releases they will get plastic models. And I can't wait to see what they do with them. If anything it will be nice to buy a couple boxes so that I can mix the new plastics into my metal squads so every unit doesn't look the same.

Personally I love having an all metal army. It isn't some unwieldy thing. It transports just like any plastic army. My daemon army is mostly plastic with the only metal models being my daemon princes. And it is actually a bigger pain to transport.

Sisters have quite a large following. the reason they aren't selling anymore is they have been out for so long and no one needs to buy anything. We have had 7 years to buy our models. In fact sisters of battle made it to the finals at this years ard boyz.

But as for plastic female guardsmen. There was an old thread on warseer that actually had quite a few links.

chromedog
12-08-2010, 03:03
I was of the same mind until quite recently, given some of the splendid plastic kits released in recent months, I personally would love to see what they can do with the sisters.


Not what I meant.

By abominations, I'm referring to the ham-fisted assemblies by people of less than adequate hand-eye co-ordination or visualisation skills.

I've seen Space Marines assembled with two left arms, two right arms, backpacks glued on backwards, guns glued on backwards, etc and all using half a tube of "gunge(tm)" (my term for any thick plastic cement in a tube).

Multi-pose modular is good, but if there is a way to put them together the wrong way, these people will find it.

Raven1
12-08-2010, 03:32
You're presuming an awful lot of galactic oversight on behalf of the Imperuim here, and ignoring 38 000 years of evolutionary variation from planet to planet. While I'm not arguing with the basis of what you're saying, it's entirely possible that females of a particular planetary population could easily be as big and muscular as males and quite possibly more so given any number af factors.
For example, I suspect tha Catachan females would tend to be just as hench as their male counterparts, nor would I expect any 'Chan female to recieve any kind of preferential treatment with regards to combat duty.

I have to agree with an above poster. 38,000 years is hardly enough time for vast evolutionary changes. Humans on earth have hardly changed in hundreds of thousands of years. Another thing is that evolution is large scale adaptations to better suit the natural environment. With our very large brains we modify the environment to suit our needs not the other way around. Even given a couple of million years I doubt the changes would be very large. Technology would slow it down to an immense degree. Even if it did the imperium is very non-human prejudiced so "non-humas" would likely be killed. The few exceptions would be squats, ogryn, and ratlings. The only viable changes you would see are skin tone, bone density, height, and musculature.

Personally, I see the Imperium as a very backwards place. So, much like the modern day, women would tend to stay in more supportive positions as opposed to being in combat positions. While watching a show on WW2 it explained that 1/6 soldiers saw combat. That basically for every combat soldier there are five others in support; intelligence, medical, military police, motor pool and the like. In essence vast amounts of women could be tithed, but not be front line combat soldiers. They could be serving as specilists to support the front line troops.

Russians in WWII had women only brigades serving in combat, but these were rare. I would assume that woman only guard armies would be rare, and possibly women wanting to serve might be encouraged to become a sister of battle.

I believe the real reason is it is easier for designers to use males only as opposed to doing both, as females are built fairly different than males and on 28mm figures it easier to just model one gender and males become the obvious choice.

madprophet
12-08-2010, 03:42
Converting existing models to female models is easy. I wanted some female figs for my guard army - I use the Valhallan sculpts for my Lyubov and wanted some female snipers (I had just finished the Osprey book Heroines of the the Soviet Union and many of them were snipers.

Ordered 6 sprues of Amazon heads - 2 heads to a sprue (this was back when GW had a Bitz service but you can get 28mm female heads from a variety of places today) and started with some basic Valhallan guardsmen. First, I took some green stuff and made a bustline across the chest of each figure and let the putty set. Then I took some more green stuff and added back the parts of the bedrolls that the bustline covered and let that set.

Once the putty was dry, I did a basic head swap, removing the original heads and using my rotary took to sand down the cut and put the Amazon heads on, using green stuff to rebuild any parts of the model damaged in the head swap or to make scarves to cover any such damage and let the putty set.

To make snipers, I then clipped off the barrels of their lasguns and mounted the very end (the muzzle and flash suppressor) on the end of a bit of paper clip to turn the rifle into a longlas. Spotters needed no further work

When I was done, I had 6 female Valhallan sniper teams (2 special weapons squads) to add to my army. Of course, I mixed in some male troopers and rotated some of the girls to the ranks.

For my Chaos Marines, I wanted 11 (the sacred number of Malal) Chosen Marines, all of which had to be female (the Brides of Faruq). I used some female Dark Eldar torsos and arms with Space Marine shoulder pads for some (swapping the DE weapons for CSM weapons), I converted an old female Paladin model I had, bought a Libby in Power Armor from Hasselfree (Armorcast is their USA distributor) and added the bust line and used a variety of female heads to complete the project.

mrln68
12-08-2010, 04:50
Yes - there are lots of ways you can have females in 40K...

However, in order to be GW tournament legal...most of them are right out. Using parts and pieces from other manufacturers (especially to the extant that I am looking to use) is will get you bumped out of most of them. Also, in light of the title of this thread - plastic models - the vast majority of the options also do not fit that criteria.

Sculpting is also not a hard thing - however it isn't something that I want to do for (at the moment) 92 minis plus any vehicle crew that I want to have in visible. If I was after a normal army with just a few females here and there to change things up - I would definitely go that route again (did it already for my existing IG and Inq armies...but it was only for a few figures over the course of several years).

And with the Chaos Space Marines - just added a 12 new models to my Noise Marines list last fall. To fill the roll of some Possessed EC - I took normal CSM models and quarters them at the knees and elbows, keeping the greaves and forearm armor. I also removed the plastic below the rigid portion of the chest. To fill the areas that I removed I too the new Daemonette models and trimmed them to match up with the remaining parts. Bit of plastic glue and putty to fill the gaps and I had a unit of possessed marines inspired by the art from the Book of Slaanesh in the old CSM Codex. Not fully female...but definitely not male either.

Again though - doesn't work for IG...


By abominations, I'm referring to the ham-fisted assemblies by people of less than adequate hand-eye co-ordination or visualisation skills.

I've seen Space Marines assembled with two left arms, two right arms, backpacks glued on backwards, guns glued on backwards, etc and all using half a tube of "gunge(tm)" (my term for any thick plastic cement in a tube).

Multi-pose modular is good, but if there is a way to put them together the wrong way, these people will find it.

Not much that can be done about that though. I have to admit that I have seen some nightmares of assembly, and it just makes me shake my head in disgust. The great thing about the plastic is to make things go faster during assembly, but if you are incapable of following the little picture thing in the boxes...well, I don't know how you manage to tie your shoes in the morning.

Come to think of it, a lot of those guys have velcro shoes... =)

madprophet
12-08-2010, 07:03
If you have to be tournament legal, outside of converting existing figures, its going to be tough. But if you are using IG, you can start with Cadians and add the green stuff bustline and resculpt the armor. Also add some width to the hips of the figure.

For heads, you will need to grab some bitz. Chapterhouse Studios sells female heads (http://chapterhousestudios.com/webshop/component/virtuemart/?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=69&category_id=35) in 28mm/Warhammer scale.

For Space Marines, simply add the bust (I use 2 separate blobs of green stuff), if you model the helmet on, no further work is needed, for bare headed models either use the Chapterhouse Studios heads or grab some female heads out of your fantasy bit box (the coming plastic Dark Eldar Witches or Dark Elf Wytch Elves are a good source).

Catachans can be built out of Wytch Elves (just use Catachan legs and sculpt the hips out of green stuff) swap the fantasy weapons for guard weapons and you are good. Plus the Catachan GL chick, the Tanith chick, the Warrior Woman and Rocket Girl chicks all would fit into a Catachan army as is (so would the Escher gangers) and the whole thing is tournament legal. Catachan guard is probably the easiest army to add lots of chicks to and remain 100% tournament legal is you want to avoid conversions.

IcedAnimals
12-08-2010, 07:12
those have to be some of the most hideous heads I have ever seen sculpted.

Hellebore
12-08-2010, 07:15
I'd be more worried about the actions of male soldiers in a mixed regiment than female ones. High stress danger filled environments, high testosterone, alcohol. Females in guard regiments would either all have to be universally superior crotch kickers or come with their own bodyguards because they sure as hell won't be going about their business unmolested.

The intro to the Dark heresy RPG talks about gender roles in the Imperium. See attachement. You can take it how you like.

Hellebore

Todosi
12-08-2010, 08:15
Agreed, the Chapter House heads are pretty bad.

Try these:

http://www.shop.microartstudio.com/women-heads-p-360.html?cPath=45_74

Chem-Dog
12-08-2010, 12:06
Not what I meant.

By abominations, I'm referring to the ham-fisted assemblies by people of less than adequate hand-eye co-ordination or visualisation skills.

I've seen Space Marines assembled with two left arms, two right arms, backpacks glued on backwards, guns glued on backwards, etc and all using half a tube of "gunge(tm)" (my term for any thick plastic cement in a tube).

Multi-pose modular is good, but if there is a way to put them together the wrong way, these people will find it.

I misintepretted. And I know what you mean, the mess one kid at my gaming club made of his venerable dread made a little bit of me die inside. BUT for every ten of those hamfisted assemblies there's someone who puts together a truly inspired conversion and that's worth it in my book.


I have to agree with an above poster. 38,000 years is hardly enough time for vast evolutionary changes. Humans on earth have hardly changed in hundreds of thousands of years. Another thing is that evolution is large scale adaptations to better suit the natural environment. With our very large brains we modify the environment to suit our needs not the other way around. Even given a couple of million years I doubt the changes would be very large. Technology would slow it down to an immense degree.

Technology is in decline in the Imperium in general, civilisations that predate the Imperium can and have devolve to a less enlightened state with some kind of pre-industrial culture not uncommon. With this in mind it's possible that adaptive alterations would be more prevalent when humanity is viewed as a whole. We do even have examples of ancient genetic manipulation performed to better equip settlers to their environment.


Even if it did the imperium is very non-human prejudiced so "non-humas" would likely be killed. The few exceptions would be squats, ogryn, and ratlings. The only viable changes you would see are skin tone, bone density, height, and musculature.

These are the kinds of changes I'm mainly talking about in this respect, remember the jumping off point for this rather tangential discussion is the potential for women of an unspecified and hypothetical world to bear very little primary physiological differences to the males. Changes in muscle mass and bone density could come about quite quickly if a world's gravity were even slightly different from the "norm".


Personally, I see the Imperium as a very backwards place. So, much like the modern day, women would tend to stay in more supportive positions as opposed to being in combat positions. While watching a show on WW2 it explained that 1/6 soldiers saw combat. That basically for every combat soldier there are five others in support; intelligence, medical, military police, motor pool and the like. In essence vast amounts of women could be tithed, but not be front line combat soldiers. They could be serving as specilists to support the front line troops.

Russians in WWII had women only brigades serving in combat, but these were rare. I would assume that woman only guard armies would be rare, and possibly women wanting to serve might be encouraged to become a sister of battle.

I think you're probably right with the idea that women are largely non combatant or at least employed in some kind of auxilliary battlefield role but as with everything 40K there are exceptions.

I'd take issue, though, with the suggestion that women wishing to join the PDF/IG would be patted on the head and shuffled off to the local Sororitas Mission, the AS are an army of women, not an army for women. That and it's a religeous calling.

Tenngate
12-08-2010, 12:55
A cracking debate. it stems though, from the tiny differences that we all have in our own conceptions of the 40k universe. It is "grimmer" for some than others...there's the whole:

"a million worlds? Naa that's imperial propaganda - more like 250,000 and the high lords aren't sure...most imperial worlds are impoverished with feudal populations under a maniacal tyrannical regime which teaches nothing reminiscent of what the Emperor intended...is he even alive? Yes...humanity is losing and will fade over the millennia..."

Where am I going with this? And what has this got to do with girls?! In a "feudal" society women have a pivotal role and I'd say that is is where most of them are - working the land, raising children etc. These old values do not indicate Imperial degrees of inequality. Equality doesn't exist for mankind in 40k. Everyone's lot is fairly terrible. Of course women fight in the guard. Agreed, though, the general consensus is "I don't want lady torsos on my for my sprues!" The reasons why have been explored already. But - YES to plastic sisters of battle, Yes to female specialists (snipers, pilots, intelligence officers, forward observers, Imperial Press, etc. A line of those would be amazing.

But how's this for a "Regiment" idea to placate all sides. We read in fluff so often about decimated imperial guard leading desperate defenses of shattered Hive cities where the populous stands up and fights too - after all many populations are highly militarised... I'd like to see a highly equipped irregular partisan force of mixed genders. "Imperial citizenry" hardened in the fires of battle. Great examples of this kind of force in the Terminator movies, Reign of Fire, Defiance etc all with a high proportion of women in the ranks. Driven into the wilderness, ambushing the occupying enemy or sneaking amongst the rubble of their once glorious hive....

AndrewGPaul
12-08-2010, 13:12
Of course, the easiest way to have a female Imperial Guard army is to field an Armoured Company. :)

Godzooky
12-08-2010, 13:26
Of course, the easiest way to have a female Imperial Guard army is to field an Armoured Company. :)

Just don't ask them to parallel park, eh fellas?

Am I right? :p

Zweischneid
12-08-2010, 13:31
Where am I going with this? And what has this got to do with girls?! In a "feudal" society women have a pivotal role and I'd say that is is where most of them are - working the land, raising children etc. These old values do not indicate Imperial degrees of inequality. Equality doesn't exist for mankind in 40k. Everyone's lot is fairly terrible. Of course women fight in the guard. Agreed, though, the general consensus is "I don't want lady torsos on my for my sprues!" The reasons why have been explored already. But - YES to plastic sisters of battle, Yes to female specialists (snipers, pilots, intelligence officers, forward observers, Imperial Press, etc. A line of those would be amazing.

Not necessarly. A backward, medieval, feudal, dark age society could still be a matriarchal society with females holding positions power over men. These could be horribly cruel and intolerant societies with males enslaved, tortured, perhaps even castrated on large scales except for a few selected for breeding. Certain climates, a few thousand years of (almost) isolation and social norms could leave females on some planets to develop greater strenght/weight/combat prowess over their male counterparts as happens in some animal (even mammal) species.

Grimdark doesn't have to mean Grimdark like 12th century Europe on good ol' Planet Earth.

AFnord
12-08-2010, 13:38
Well, if Tyranids are anything like the social insects here on earth, you have an entire army of female plastic models, as most are sterile females.
That was not what you asked for though...
There have been some female guardsmen models, but all have been in metal. Those were (not counting those special character related ones) cadians, which at least would indicate that Cadia uses female soldiers (considering cadias location, do they have a choice?)

Raven1
12-08-2010, 13:54
Technology is in decline in the Imperium in general, civilisations that predate the Imperium can and have devolve to a less enlightened state with some kind of pre-industrial culture not uncommon. With this in mind it's possible that adaptive alterations would be more prevalent when humanity is viewed as a whole. We do even have examples of ancient genetic manipulation performed to better equip settlers to their environment.

These are the kinds of changes I'm mainly talking about in this respect, remember the jumping off point for this rather tangential discussion is the potential for women of an unspecified and hypothetical world to bear very little primary physiological differences to the males. Changes in muscle mass and bone density could come about quite quickly if a world's gravity were even slightly different from the "norm".

I'd take issue, though, with the suggestion that women wishing to join the PDF/IG would be patted on the head and shuffled off to the local Sororitas Mission, the AS are an army of women, not an army for women. That and it's a religeous calling.

When I say technology I'm not talking driving cars, having guns, or what have you, although that certainly applies. The most important ones and this is where we lose muscle mass, speed, and claws and teeth, and streamline and slow down in evolutionary standards when we can extend our reach by placing a chipped stone on the the end of stick and our reach is 8ft longer or throw a smaller spear with atlatl and have good range, speed and accuracy. Even what we would consider the most rudimentary adaptations by hunter gatherer have slowed our evolutionary changes to an almost stand still. plus, because of say medicine we take out survival of the fittest you don't need great sight to survive we can make you glasses or what have you we interbreed rather willy nilly (which isn't a bad thing) but that takes out certain factors in evolution.

Small changes that could act as a jumping off point in evolutionary changes could also likely kill us or make the world uninhabitable, have you heard of the Goldilock zones? It is a very interesting idea.

When I say women would be encouraged to join the Adeptus Sororitus, its not a oh look how funny she thinks she can join the guard. The idea is based in a woman's life is probably many times better being a sister of the Adeptus Sororitus than living a normal life, and if that religious life slightly appeals to her or she has a desire to serve, her family would push in that direction, heck the family might push in that direct in an effort to improve their child's quality of life


Just don't ask them to parallel park, eh fellas?

Am I right? :p

I literally laughed out loud.

In an effort to stay on topic, I still say that the reason we have little to no female models has nothing to do with misogynistic ideas, but ease of design, production, and manufacturing, and no it doesn't bother me. I don't really care I'm not in role playing and I suck at converting.

Sai-Lauren
12-08-2010, 14:33
I'd be more worried about the actions of male soldiers in a mixed regiment than female ones. High stress danger filled environments, high testosterone, alcohol. Females in guard regiments would either all have to be universally superior crotch kickers or come with their own bodyguards because they sure as hell won't be going about their business unmolested.

For us on Earth maybe, but for other worlds, their traditions might supress that.

Add in basic training (and the first one to try jumping a fellow trooper will almost certainly get a power maul in the groin from the drill sergeant for their trouble, assuming there's no retaliation on their comrades behalf by other members of the unit), indoctrination and so on, and you've probably solved the issue right away. (The Tanith only really had Caffran and Criid, plus Banda and whoever she's advancing her career with, and Cain's Valhallans seem to be able to keep their hands off each other for the most part, except for one now deceased couple in the first book).

Of course, some worlds might have the tradition of just passing out the contraceptives and letting the women choose who they want to molest instead. :)

More seriously, a world like Cadia might require guardswomen to apply for permission to try to get pregnant, which moves them to non-frontline functions for say two years, but if they're not pregnant within say six months, they're prohibited from continuing trying and sent back to their regiment, or they're just artificially inseminated, whilst, as I've postulated before, Kreig Guard recruits could potentially have their testes or ova harvested during the Founding, so that effectively only genderless drones go off world - which might explain their morbid outlook on life :D.



But how's this for a "Regiment" idea to placate all sides. We read in fluff so often about decimated imperial guard leading desperate defenses of shattered Hive cities where the populous stands up and fights too - after all many populations are highly militarised... I'd like to see a highly equipped irregular partisan force of mixed genders. "Imperial citizenry" hardened in the fires of battle. Great examples of this kind of force in the Terminator movies, Reign of Fire, Defiance etc all with a high proportion of women in the ranks. Driven into the wilderness, ambushing the occupying enemy or sneaking amongst the rubble of their once glorious hive....

Or bring back the Hive Gang Militia units from Armageddon, which allowed you to use Eschers gangers as, well, Escher gangers. :)



Not necessarly. A backward, medieval, feudal, dark age society could still be a matriarchal society with females holding positions power over men. These could be horribly cruel and intolerant societies with males enslaved, tortured, perhaps even castrated on large scales except for a few selected for breeding. Certain climates, a few thousand years of (almost) isolation and social norms could leave females on some planets to develop greater strenght/weight/combat prowess over their male counterparts as happens in some animal (even mammal) species.

Grimdark doesn't have to mean Grimdark like 12th century Europe on good ol' Planet Earth.

Or something environmental might mean the birth ratio is heavily skewed towards women (that's the justification for my Escher guard), making it advantageous to ship women off world (some as breeding stock for male centred worlds, others into Imperial service) and leave the men there to produce the next generation, whilst maintaining a suitable population size for whatever the planet produces (Faelos is a mainly agricultural planet, and the higher the population, the less food and wood it can produce for other worlds).

barrangas
12-08-2010, 16:18
I'd be more worried about the actions of male soldiers in a mixed regiment than female ones. High stress danger filled environments, high testosterone, alcohol. Females in guard regiments would either all have to be universally superior crotch kickers or come with their own bodyguards because they sure as hell won't be going about their business unmolested.

Hellebore

In the US, atm, women don't serve in front line combat units. This means they aren't knowingly placed in battle, but with the two current wars going on this doesn't mean that much as many of these units still find themselves in combat situations. This means that there are plenty of female soldiers who have combat experience even though it wasn't intended.

As for women as "distractions" to the men of combat units, I'd imagine that the rape of a fellow soldier carries harsher punishments in a time of war then it would in civilian life. Add in Commissars and general punishment of the IG (an exerp from the IG Primer I think stated improper hygene was 5 lashes), I think most would be discouraged. If a soldier still can't control his lust, well obviously said soldier is comprimised by Slaanesh. All in all, I think it would be a self correcting problem.

Hellebore
12-08-2010, 16:27
Well I don't want to get into P&R, but studies have shown higher than 'average' levels of rape in the military where females are present. Part of the problem is that it's not always reported making reprimands/punishment impossible. It becomes an internalised guilt and so on.

We have a very liberal western society compared to the imperium so if it happens here, it should happen in the Imperium far more frequently. I don't think it's as self regulating as we would hope it to be.

But then I'm a bit of a pessimist.

Hellebore

Killgore
12-08-2010, 16:30
Wars no place for Ladies

Keep the battlefield reserved for the men ;)

Hellebore
12-08-2010, 16:36
I'm all for equality on the battlefield - it means if I'm ever forcibly conscripted to fight for a rich man against another rich man's peasants there will be double the number of extra bullet catchers around me, halving my chances of being shot.

Hellebore

barrangas
12-08-2010, 16:41
Well I don't want to get into P&R, but studies have shown higher than 'average' levels of rape in the military where females are present. Part of the problem is that it's not always reported making reprimands/punishment impossible. It becomes an internalised guilt and so on.

Hellebore

Unfortunately rape is rarely reported in regular civillian life, so I'd say any report that claims that there is a known "average" isn't a good one.

I'm not saying it wouldn't happen, just that the threat of torture and execution and the fact that there is a daemon god of lust, would likely have most guardsmen keeping it in their pants.

How about we get off this topic before I want to start blood eagling rapists out of anger.

barrangas
12-08-2010, 16:44
I'm all for equality on the battlefield - it means if I'm ever forcibly conscripted to fight for a rich man against another rich man's peasants there will be double the number of extra bullet catchers around me, halving my chances of being shot.

Hellebore

Or another peasant who's thinking about said rich man up against the wall come the revolution :evilgrin:

Bunnahabhain
12-08-2010, 17:00
Often, where societies ( or the leadership thereof) really believe that they are under a significant danger of being wiped out, you'll find find women serving in the front line, in fairly much every role.

I'll just give two real world examples- Soviet Union WW2. Plenty of female drivers, medics, MPs, snipers, artillery crew, vehicle crew, and pilots.

The Israeli Defence forces: ~85% of positions are open to women, although it is easier for them to get out of them.

There is no practical reason why, if the situation is seen as really that desperate, and for large parts of the Imperium, it would seem to be, that women shouldn't serve on the front line. Indeed, lots of the arguments against it become moot if the enemy you are facing doesn't care what gender you are, and just wants to eat you....


It would not require any significant change to the background, just more sprues, which is why I think It hasn't happened yet...

The Highlander
12-08-2010, 18:39
Two small points about females in the military.

Firstly, average strength levels do not necessary relate to the strength of an individual. Jill Mills http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jill_Mills may be female, but I bet she is still a lot stronger than most of the people on this board!

Secondly, remember that every world in the Imperium is a separate, largely independent state with its own culture, traditions and to a certain extent genetic heritage. I can easily think of situations where women could become the dominant force in society (a genetic defect or disease wipes out most of the male population or severally weakens them, leading to women taking over the physical tasks). A few thousand years of selective breading, a little high gravity and the result would be a society of women the exactly the sort of physical and mental characteristics to make good solders.

Ultimately, this discussion is a little pointless, there are plenty of examples in the background for women in front line combat roles in the Imperial Guard (as well as other forces). The reason that there a few female models is simply because the number of people who would want to buy them is relatively small. However, this is exactly the sort of thing for which forge world is very well suited.

IcedAnimals
12-08-2010, 19:08
Physical stength has so little to do with war anymore that as long as she is fit enough to not collapse during a march and carry her pack and gun a woman is just as good as any man. Somehow I don't think having lots of muscle is going to help him kill more tyranids before the bugs reach him. And once they do all that muscle means is he is a tastier snack than she is.

Necron2.0
12-08-2010, 22:04
Real world comparisons don't really translate to games. This is like how in original D&D female characters were limited to a maximum strength of 17 (IIRC), while males could be 18(00). Yes, it might be more accurate to reality, but it's not very much fun. The reality is that humans are sexually dimorphic, true, but 40K isn't a real world simulation, and so I'm all for someone fielding an army of man-hating, berserker Amazons if they feel so inclined. Hey, I've seen Adepta Sororitas done up as "Hello Kitties," so is anything really off the table? Hmm. Maybe I should get a box set of Catachan and create a Queens of Battle army. Eh, maybe not.

Now, what I'd like to see is a female Commissarr - the kind that'd inspire the men to follow her anywhere, if you know what I mean. <*wink*>, <*wink*>, <*nudge*>, <*nudge*>

AndrewGPaul
12-08-2010, 23:36
They did one of those, and it was crap: http://www.blackmoor.ca/gwimpfcommissar1.htm

Mind you, whack a peaked cap on the alternate Escher Gang Leader model and you're there.

MajorWesJanson
12-08-2010, 23:44
They did one of those, and it was crap: http://www.blackmoor.ca/gwimpfcommissar1.htm


It's not bad at all. Just old. Compare it to any of those other early Commissars, and it fits right in.

mrln68
13-08-2010, 00:32
The color scheme of that one also throws it off for a lot of people. Personally I like it - but most 40K players want more despair in there miniatures. Those colors are too happy.

AndrewGPaul
13-08-2010, 00:46
It's not bad at all. Just old. Compare it to any of those other early Commissars, and it fits right in.

I've got equally old commissars, and all three have much finer detail and less cartoony looks than that one Even the laspistol is goofy-looking.

Chem-Dog
13-08-2010, 02:34
Just don't ask them to parallel park, eh fellas?

Am I right? :p

Mysogeny ftw \o/ <this is in place of a sticky out tongue smiley as I've used more than my alotted number in this post>


When I say technology I'm not talking driving cars, having guns, or what have you, although that certainly applies. The most important ones and this is where we lose muscle mass, speed, and claws and teeth, and streamline and slow down in evolutionary standards when we can extend our reach by placing a chipped stone on the the end of stick and our reach is 8ft longer or throw a smaller spear with atlatl and have good range, speed and accuracy. Even what we would consider the most rudimentary adaptations by hunter gatherer have slowed our evolutionary changes to an almost stand still. plus, because of say medicine we take out survival of the fittest you don't need great sight to survive we can make you glasses or what have you we interbreed rather willy nilly (which isn't a bad thing) but that takes out certain factors in evolution.

Oh, I agree on everything you're saying here. But the situations often presented to us in 40K "literature" are unseen in our anthropological studies simply because we haven't got that far yet, life on a different planet is quite litterally beyond our sphere of experience, exactly what effect a different type/number of/size sun, gravity field, air content, lunar cycle year are impossible to accurately gauge. Then add in all the fantastical elements of life in 40K and you're firmly in make-it-up-as-you-go-along country.


Small changes that could act as a jumping off point in evolutionary changes could also likely kill us or make the world uninhabitable, have you heard of the Goldilock zones? It is a very interesting idea.

I looked it up :) it's an interesting notion one that certainly rings true for me BUT even within this classification of "habitable world" (Star Trek's "Class M" planet classification, I guess, is a rough analogy) there are extremes, our own beloved Terra's climate varies widely, if humans who are indigenous to these relative variancies show adaptive changes it's reasonable to assume similar levels of change on alien worlds.
Now imagine a pre-imperium settling of a world which exists in one of these climactic extremes, and assuming a fairly multicultural cross section of humanity is represented by the settlers (which is in no way guaranteed) those people who are already more suited to the new environment will struggle less, secondary illnesses and stress induced conditions will be less prevalent in this section of the new society and it will flourish where other sections may not.
And then there's just plain, dumb luck. All it could take is for a particular genetic variance to render people of a particular ethnicity prone or immune to some bacterium or parasite on the new homeworld to radically alter the demographic of the settling population.


When I say women would be encouraged to join the Adeptus Sororitus, its not a oh look how funny she thinks she can join the guard.

Of course not, I was being overly glib.


The idea is based in a woman's life is probably many times better being a sister of the Adeptus Sororitus than living a normal life, and if that religious life slightly appeals to her or she has a desire to serve, her family would push in that direction, heck the family might push in that direct in an effort to improve their child's quality of life



Add in basic training (and the first one to try jumping a fellow trooper will almost certainly get a power maul in the groin from the drill sergeant for their trouble, assuming there's no retaliation on their comrades behalf by other members of the unit), indoctrination and so on, and you've probably solved the issue right away.

Not to mention the ever present threat of the Commissar.

I would hazard a guess that in situations where capitol punishment was expected for such crimes, it would be less of an issue.


Of course, some worlds might have the tradition of just passing out the contraceptives and letting the women choose who they want to molest instead. :)

You want to tell a Catachan woman "not tonight Josephine"?


More seriously, a world like Cadia might require guardswomen to apply for permission to try to get pregnant, which moves them to non-frontline functions for say two years, but if they're not pregnant within say six months, they're prohibited from continuing trying and sent back to their regiment, or they're just artificially inseminated, whilst, as I've postulated before, Kreig Guard recruits could potentially have their testes or ova harvested during the Founding, so that effectively only genderless drones go off world - which might explain their morbid outlook on life

All perfectly likely in the grimdark 40k, Conception licences, enforced fertilisation/sterilisation, not strictly 40K but the Geno Five-Two Chiliad in Dan Abnett's Legion were an interesting take on procreative issues within a military outfit.
Of course, on Cadia I'd say it would be considered every Cadian Woman's duty to produce as many Soldiers as possible.
I thought that Krieg were Vat grown (I'm not up with the forgeworld stuff tbh).



Or bring back the Hive Gang Militia units from Armageddon, which allowed you to use Eschers gangers as, well, Escher gangers. :)

Do I need to point out that Escher is a House Nation on Necromunda, not Armageddon? :p



Or something environmental might mean the birth ratio is heavily skewed towards women

OR the death rate is heavily skewed towards men....
You could almost see a reverse Sexual Selection issue creeping out here.
1)A world supplies only males to fight in the Imperium's wars.
2)The planet is close to an active warzone.
3)Foundings are frequent and generations of men are sent to fight and die.
4)Bloodlines that are more prone to producing female offspring are preserved while those that swing more to the male side dwindle.
5)Male children are increasingly rare.

Again a pretty simplistic view of things on my part.


Well I don't want to get into P&R, but studies have shown higher than 'average' levels of rape in the military where females are present. Part of the problem is that it's not always reported making reprimands/punishment impossible.

Our western liberalism doesn't allow for Commissars, Penal Legions or Mid-scrub/Servitor duty.
Our society doesn't have absolute proof of our diety(s) existance either.




I'm all for equality on the battlefield - it means if I'm ever forcibly conscripted to fight for a rich man against another rich man's peasants there will be double the number of extra bullet catchers around me, halving my chances of being shot.

Hellebore

Such Chivalry!:p




Physical stength has so little to do with war anymore that as long as she is fit enough to not collapse during a march and carry her pack and gun a woman is just as good as any man. Somehow I don't think having lots of muscle is going to help him kill more tyranids before the bugs reach him. And once they do all that muscle means is he is a tastier snack than she is.

Extra muscle might mean they can kill more of the swarm creatures before they're chomped.

Might I suggest a thread in the Background forum if we want to continue some of these wonderfully interesting topics of conversation?

mrln68
13-08-2010, 03:42
NO - YOU MUST STAY ON TOPIC.

Just kidding. My thread and I tend to ramble a good bit - take it where it goes as far as I am concerned.

Hellebore
13-08-2010, 03:52
Such Chivalry!:p


You must have me mistaken for a mysogynist my good fellow. I wouldn't dream of getting in the way of women who want to get themselves killed. That would be sexist. :angel:


Hellebore

Sai-Lauren
13-08-2010, 09:54
I looked it up :) it's an interesting notion one that certainly rings true for me BUT even within this classification of "habitable world" (Star Trek's "Class M" planet classification, I guess, is a rough analogy) there are extremes, our own beloved Terra's climate varies widely, if humans who are indigenous to these relative variancies show adaptive changes it's reasonable to assume similar levels of change on alien worlds.
Now imagine a pre-imperium settling of a world which exists in one of these climactic extremes, and assuming a fairly multicultural cross section of humanity is represented by the settlers (which is in no way guaranteed) those people who are already more suited to the new environment will struggle less, secondary illnesses and stress induced conditions will be less prevalent in this section of the new society and it will flourish where other sections may not.
And then there's just plain, dumb luck. All it could take is for a particular genetic variance to render people of a particular ethnicity prone or immune to some bacterium or parasite on the new homeworld to radically alter the demographic of the settling population.

I did post something like that on another thread - the most likely worlds that humans are going to colonise would be between roughly 0.8 to 1.3 G, with liquid water and edible native flora and fauna, low levels of background radiation and so on. Anything outside that will need a massive initial investment of resources to start up and constant support to maintain, so it'll only be done if it's really worth it.



Of course, on Cadia I'd say it would be considered every Cadian Woman's duty to produce as many Soldiers as possible.

Yes, but the children don't really need their parents to bring them up, so they'll probably be given over to the regimental creche (possibly the mother has to wet nurse in the creche as part of her duties until she returns to active service) until they're old enough to begin basic training.



I thought that Krieg were Vat grown (I'm not up with the forgeworld stuff tbh).

But they still need the genetic material - remember that Kreig is a chemical and radiological wasteland, so anyone even going to the surface is running the risk of producing mutated offspring.

IMO, the gonads get harvested, treated to release ova or spermatazoa at an accelerated rate, then mixed together almost completely randomly.



Do I need to point out that Escher is a House Nation on Necromunda, not Armageddon? :p

They're on holiday... :p

Although I'd say the hive families probably do have holdings on other hive worlds through things like political marriages.



OR the death rate is heavily skewed towards men....
You could almost see a reverse Sexual Selection issue creeping out here.
1)A world supplies only males to fight in the Imperium's wars.
2)The planet is close to an active warzone.
3)Foundings are frequent and generations of men are sent to fight and die.
4)Bloodlines that are more prone to producing female offspring are preserved while those that swing more to the male side dwindle.
5)Male children are increasingly rare.

Again a pretty simplistic view of things on my part.

Maybe not even that - if a genetic condition like Haemophilia is prevalent in the population, then Males would be less likely to survive to adulthood.

Or a cultural thing - say when they marry, the groom's family has to effectively buy the bride off her family (effectively a reverse of dowries)

Faelos is environmental though - Oestrogen analogue hormones in the water (which get denatured by food processing techniques so they're not affecting other worlds where the food is sent) which cause a large percentage of male foetuses to spontaneously miscarry.

onidemon
13-08-2010, 16:24
Over the last decade Dan Abnett has shaped how I imagine the guard quite a bit. In his books, both about Gaunt's Ghosts and in books like Titanicus, female guard and PDF troopers are depicted all the time. He also depicts the social traditions of worlds varying wildly, meaning not all worlds would have them, but some do. And for the ones that do, its not particularly a big deal. They're just there.

For my part, I'd really enjoy a multi-part plastic female trooper box for the Cadians (Or a brand new plastic box for Catachans in general that happen to include a couple females). Its hard to find female miniatures at all that aren't wearing some variety of belly-shirt, let alone kitted out in body armor and helmet, and itd be great to have one with GW's level of quality.

But, banking on the fact that 40k has a lot more younger boys playing than it has me's, I'd be completely happy with a few Forgeworld sets like the special Cadian command squads, just providing a few clearly female troopers in full uniform and helmet, and maybe a tank commander or two to stick in a hatch. Relatively low cost to Forgeworld, it'd make people like me and the OP happy, and not leave a bunch of unsold plastic box sets on store shelves.

Zweischneid
13-08-2010, 16:35
Over the last decade Dan Abnett has shaped how I imagine the guard quite a bit. In his books, both about Gaunt's Ghosts and in books like Titanicus, female guard and PDF troopers are depicted all the time. He also depicts the social traditions of worlds varying wildly, meaning not all worlds would have them, but some do. And for the ones that do, its not particularly a big deal. They're just there.

...

But, banking on the fact that 40k has a lot more younger boys playing than it has me's, I'd be completely happy with a few Forgeworld sets like the special Cadian command squads, just providing a few clearly female troopers in full uniform and helmet, and maybe a tank commander or two to stick in a hatch. Relatively low cost to Forgeworld, it'd make people like me and the OP happy, and not leave a bunch of unsold plastic box sets on store shelves.

Honestly, I don't think the "young boys" are even the problem here. But the IGuard fills a kinda particular niche in 40K in that there are alot of Guard players who are not looking at it from an "Abnett-POV", but are really sort of into "historic armies", doing their thing to emulate WWII or Vietnam US Forces, kitbashing historical tank-kits, painting proper British Rank and Company Markings and all that.

Imperial Guard is kinda GWs secret weapon to infiltrate the lucrative "non-sci-fi" part of the wargaming market and bring them into 40K. As such, I'd expect females to be more likely among (Dark) Eldar, Inquisition, and all the more Sci-Fi stuff, rather than the Guard.

Bunnahabhain
13-08-2010, 16:52
^^^ Although that may be accurate ( I'm not convinced, although it is perfectly sensible and credible) I'm not sure how relevant it is to a Forge world set of stuff.

If FW do a set of female cadians, or generic officers and adviors etc, then they are simply an extra you can choose to buy if you want them in your army, just like all their other upgrade sets for ranges.

There are probably enough Guard players who would buy them to make it well worthwhile. They do have a big stock of guard players used to getting FW stuff by now....

Chem-Dog
13-08-2010, 17:05
You must have me mistaken for a mysogynist my good fellow. I wouldn't dream of getting in the way of women who want to get themselves killed. That would be sexist. :angel:


Hellebore

Ah an egalitarian, very well, continue ;)


I did post something like that on another thread - the most likely worlds that humans are going to colonise would be between roughly 0.8 to 1.3 G, with liquid water and edible native flora and fauna, low levels of background radiation and so on. Anything outside that will need a massive initial investment of resources to start up and constant support to maintain, so it'll only be done if it's really worth it.

Or by accident.
Or by drastic environmental change post settling (See: Valhalla, Tallarn)



But they still need the genetic material - remember that Kreig is a chemical and radiological wasteland, so anyone even going to the surface is running the risk of producing mutated offspring.

Fair enough.


IMO, the gonads get harvested, treated to release ova or spermatazoa at an accelerated rate, then mixed together almost completely randomly.

Hur hur hur, you said Gonads :D



They're on holiday... :p

Although I'd say the hive families probably do have holdings on other hive worlds through things like political marriages.

A political marriage is all very well, but it doesn't then follow that a horde of Escher gangers will appear soon after :p The holdings would be by way of affiliation largely, remembering that Escher is just a common house within the Necromundan community.
But we're getting off of the, off topic, topic :D

DeviantApostle
15-08-2010, 10:18
It's not just plastic, it's female miniatures period. I am really hoping that the Dark Eldar, if they ever come, will keep the female Warriors and other models. They should do more of that for diversity at the least.

AndrewGPaul
15-08-2010, 10:45
A political marriage is all very well, but it doesn't then follow that a horde of Escher gangers will appear soon after :p

Hen party.

LonelyPath
15-08-2010, 12:54
Does anyone know of any companies that produce female miniatures suitable for Guard armies? I used to have a few sites with them bookmarked, but lost them all when I had to purge my system due to a nasty virus and forgot which companies they were. Any links or company names would be appreciated, thanks :)

madprophet
15-08-2010, 14:03
Does anyone know of any companies that produce female miniatures suitable for Guard armies? I used to have a few sites with them bookmarked, but lost them all when I had to purge my system due to a nasty virus and forgot which companies they were. Any links or company names would be appreciated, thanks :)

http://shadowforge.com.au

http://hasslefreeminiatures.co.uk

mrln68
15-08-2010, 16:19
With the exception of Shadowforge and Olley's Armies (Scrunties) there aren't too many manufacturers that make a completish set of modern military figures.

Most of them make a mini here or a mini there - and if you want a rag-tag militia type...then there are scores of options (normally under the moniker of babes or chicks with guns). Urban Mammoth, Heresy Miniatures, Infinity, RAFM, Foundry, Reaper Chronoscope, Rezolution and many, many smaller ones all have females within there lines. Most of them are pretty good minis too, and they fit in well enough with GW minis (Infinity being the largest of them IIRC).

That is where multipart plastics would come in handy though. You can swap things around much faster to make special/heavy weapon teams, comm, HQ and other specialists - not to mention changing up the poses so that it doesn't look like a parade formation.

LonelyPath
15-08-2010, 18:05
Thanks for the replies, I'll check them out :)

I'm after them mostly to put in Conscript and Penal squads so they'll fit right in if they look a little more ragtag.

Setesh
15-08-2010, 18:26
If you're miffed about the lack of women in 40k check out black library. It seems every book I read about chaos or regular space marines has a strong female secondary character despite the lack of female models. I assume this is because the authors dont think we can identify with astartes or that wargamers are obsessed with women.
sources:
Lord of night
Soul Eater
Storm of Iron

LonelyPath
15-08-2010, 19:18
Grey Knights is another example for with a strong female Inquisitor present for much of the book.

Chem-Dog
15-08-2010, 22:38
Hen party.

A black library book coming soon!!! :wtf:


If you're miffed about the lack of women in 40k check out black library. It seems every book I read about chaos or regular space marines has a strong female secondary character despite the lack of female models.

To be fair on the writers and sculptors though, it's a lot easier to write a female character (or at least say a character is female) than it is to produce a financially viable set of models with the different physical attributes that we've explored on this thread that still somehow remain interchangable with existing kits. How do we know this? More female characters in books than plastic female minis ;)

TheMav80
15-08-2010, 22:46
It's done with other kits though. Wood Elves as an example. I think some Eldar too.

If Cadian bodies came as one piece, instead of a chest and legs piece seperate, it would be easy. Just have 3 or so out of every 10 be female. Throw in a couple feale heads and done. We already get sprues with like 3x the amount of heads on them so GW can say "Look how customizable these are! You get 25 heads! That's why these 10 models cost $30!"

mrln68
15-08-2010, 22:59
To be honest - I would likely be willing to pay significantly more for a small box of female guardsmen (I'd say about twice what the normal box goes for). Until then though, I will likely be buying lots of packages of GS and working from there. With my next project - it will most likely involve doing resin casting for the rank and file and using a mechanized list of some form in order to reduce the number of individual figures I will need.

Maybe we should send off an email campaign to Wargames Factory to get them to do up a set of modern/sci-fi female soldiers. I picked up a couple boxes of their great coats and they are really nice....

Had almost forgotten about it...

http://www.wargamesfactory.com/league They do something called the Liberty and Union League. It is a way that their customers can vote on what they might want to work on next by sort of preordering frames. You don't actually pay anything right away, but before they do the machining of the molds - they do take a $1 deposit (on normally a $5 5-figure frame). If you guys want, we can do some brainstorming and submit one over there and see how much interest we can get.

Luisjoey
17-08-2010, 16:58
They should just make plastic Sisters. That would make a lot of folks happy.

I imagine that the new DE will include a bunch of plastic fems too.

agree! Sisters of battle in plastic are needed!

Kettu
18-08-2010, 04:29
@mrln68

I have been following them for a while and really, the biggest problem is finding enough people wanting female miniatures.

Hell, when they did the Celt chariots and included as a freebie a female charioteer you should have seen the vitriol that was being kicked up on some forums (not their own however).

I have been thinking about suggesting Not-Sisters of Battle in 5-6mm scale but then am I the only one out there wanting a Sisters army in Epic?

mrln68
18-08-2010, 05:54
I have been thinking about suggesting Not-Sisters of Battle in 5-6mm scale but then am I the only one out there wanting a Sisters army in Epic?

I think so. :P


I have been following them for a while and really, the biggest problem is finding enough people wanting female miniatures.

I had been with them since before the beginning, did some early work and research in regards to the processes involved. I am planning on getting in touch with them later this month after the storm of this last release settles down (sold a lot more than they were expecting a lot faster than they were expecting) and checking into having a commissioned run done. If the price is right, I would be putting up the whole initial interest myself and just get it over with.

One of the problems they have in terms of the females is their initial customer base was in historicals - and although there have been historical females in combat...it is something that is few and far between. Sci-fi and fantasy have a much stronger female presence and they will likely be better received.

ehlijen
18-08-2010, 05:54
It's done with other kits though. Wood Elves as an example. I think some Eldar too.

If Cadian bodies came as one piece, instead of a chest and legs piece seperate, it would be easy. Just have 3 or so out of every 10 be female. Throw in a couple feale heads and done. We already get sprues with like 3x the amount of heads on them so GW can say "Look how customizable these are! You get 25 heads! That's why these 10 models cost $30!"

Eldar and Elves get that because their limbs are thin enough to pass for both genders.

Making guardsmen bodies and legs one piece would significantly reduce the number of poses possible. The ability to align the torsos and legs in different ways is an important part of customising poses.
I for one would not buy them like that.