PDA

View Full Version : How many Chaos Marines?



Lord_Crull
10-08-2010, 23:57
How many Chaos Marines do you think are left in the galaxy? Adding up Legions and various renegades?

Son of Sanguinius
11-08-2010, 00:14
I think they outnumber the loyalists, to be honest. With no need to procure approval for the creation of warbands, no requirements for purity of geneseed, no rules to regulate warband size and recruitment, and now with "demon wombs" to manufacture clones, I'd wager they have more than the million or so loyalists running around.

Industrial Propaganda
11-08-2010, 00:29
The original Legion traitor survivors.
Those who are lost in the Warp and return sometimes.
Some dead Chaos Champions are resurrected by the Gods.
The new Chaos Space Marines created with stolen geneseed.
The Thousand Sons souls summoned into new armours.
The chapters (or some squads) who turn renegades and start adore Chaos.
Some captured Marines are brainwashed to be turned into Chaos worshippers.

You have a big random number to estimate how much Chaos Space Marines are out there.

DarthMcBob
11-08-2010, 00:46
Out of universe answer: As many as the plot requires.

In universe answer: Plenty, but not quite as many as the loyalists. The Khornates are extremely prone to wiping each other and other traitors out for little or no reason apart from BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!! The Chaos Gods hate each other and often war against each other, and their Space Marines take part in this. They have a more limited recruitment pool, and not all of their mutations are beneficial to them. Not to mention they live on worlds where getting your soul devoured by random passing daemons is an expected and planned for occurrence. They have only one stable way out of their home region, and it is heavily guarded. This leaves them little to fight often but each other, and they're perfectly happy to slaughter worshipers of another god, or even their own god if they think it will net them brownie points. Or just because they were there. There is also the fact that they can randomly mutate into something that isn't so much "unrecognizable" as "oh sweet Chaos Gods, what the hell is that". So yeah, I think their numbers are lower than those of the loyalists.

Hellebore
11-08-2010, 00:48
I think Son of Sanguininus has a point. Although we don't actually know, the fact that they don't have any constraints placed on them would indicate at the least a capacity to exceed Imperial numbers.

The Imperium has deliberately kept marine numbers at one million - there could be 50 million if they decided to allow it. That imposed limitation doesn't apply to the chaos forces.

Hellebore

DarthMcBob
11-08-2010, 01:01
I think Son of Sanguininus has a point. Although we don't actually know, the fact that they don't have any constraints placed on them would indicate at the least a capacity to exceed Imperial numbers.

The Imperium has deliberately kept marine numbers at one million - there could be 50 million if they decided to allow it. That imposed limitation doesn't apply to the chaos forces.

Hellebore

True, but they are infinitely more prone to infighting than loyalists. They will take almost any excuse to slaughter worshipers of a rival god, if they bother to make one up at all. They regularly raid each other for supplies and slaves. There is often infighting among the same legion, as they jockey with one another for power/their god(s)'s favor. In the rulebook, it says that their loyalty is only to those stronger than themselves. Also, their existence in the Warp leaves them far more vulnerable to having their souls eaten by daemons of another god/their god. It also infinitely increases their risk of mutation into something mindless and feral. So their are factors balancing out their numbers.

Hellebore
11-08-2010, 01:04
True, but they are infinitely more prone to infighting than loyalists. They will take almost any excuse to slaughter worshipers of a rival god, if they bother to make one up at all. They regularly raid each other for supplies and slaves. There is often infighting among the same legion, as they jockey with one another for power/their god(s)'s favor. In the rulebook, it says that their loyalty is only to those stronger than themselves. Also, their existence in the Warp leaves them far more vulnerable to having their souls eaten by daemons of another god/their god. It also infinitely increases their risk of mutation into something mindless and feral. So their are factors balancing out their numbers.

I suppose then it comes down to who fights more. Loyalist marines or chaos marines? The more they fight the higher probability of mortality.

You could say that whilst the chaos marines are infighting the loyalist ones are standing against a waaagh! of millions.

That's a hard thing to quantify. Certainly, chaos marines would have more recruits and thus could sustain a higher initial attrition rate than loyalists.

Hellebore

DarthMcBob
11-08-2010, 01:19
I suppose then it comes down to who fights more. Loyalist marines or chaos marines? The more they fight the higher probability of mortality.

You could say that whilst the chaos marines are infighting the loyalist ones are standing against a waaagh! of millions.

That's a hard thing to quantify. Certainly, chaos marines would have more recruits and thus could sustain a higher initial attrition rate than loyalists.

Hellebore

Depends a lot really. The other legions are apt to raid them to steal potential recruits. Khornates are liable to attack for no reason other than BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! The loyalist Marines have planets where getting eaten by daemons is not a common hazard. Chaos Marines usually don't (because any planet of theirs outside the Warp is liable to get re-taken/blown apart by the Imperium. Also, loyalists are not the only ones to suffer attacks from aliens. In the latest Tyranid codex, Hive Fleet Behemoth eats the Death Shadows Chaos Renegade fortress world of Sybari, Hive Fleet Leviathan gobbles up the Iron Warriors fortress world of Forgefane, and the Tyranids attack the new daemon world of Sondheim V. The Sky Sentinels Chapter is sent to reclaim it, but upon arrival, they use Exterminatus to destroy both sides. Chaos must deal with aliens too.

In addition, while they may have more recruits to start with, quoth Fabius Bile:


Each of the Legions has now nominated aspirants seeking to throw themselves upon our mercy in the vain hope that we may deem them worthy to join our ranks. Those loyal to the shrunken corpse on Terra still cling to their own processes by which perhaps one in a hundred neophytes may survive to become a battle brother. The methods I have developed over the last millennia are more stringent, for we must be pure in our hatred and hard of heart, body and soul. Fewer than one in every thousand survive, and I strive each day to lengthen these odds still further.

Hellebore
11-08-2010, 01:29
What I meant was that the chaos legions wouldn't be fighting other forces whilst infighting. The loyalists wouldn't have infighting, but they'd still be fighting something.

The chaos legions also only fight when they want to. Unlike the loyalists they don't have to go and protect X planet from invasion. They fight for their own reasons and only when they want to (excluding those times as you mention where their holdings are invaded).

A marine chapter that actually refused to fight the enemies of the imperium would come under scrutiny pretty quick.

So, yeah. It's hard to quantify.

Hellebore

DarthMcBob
11-08-2010, 01:41
What I meant was that the chaos legions wouldn't be fighting other forces whilst infighting. The loyalists wouldn't have infighting, but they'd still be fighting something.

The chaos legions also only fight when they want to. Unlike the loyalists they don't have to go and protect X planet from invasion. They fight for their own reasons and only when they want to (excluding those times as you mention where their holdings are invaded).

A marine chapter that actually refused to fight the enemies of the imperium would come under scrutiny pretty quick.

So, yeah. It's hard to quantify.

Hellebore

True, but they love war, and when not fighting other opponents they are fighting each other. Their plans to work together often fall apart when someone backstabs someone else. Also, their holdings can be invaded and are. In addition to the examples I already brought up of Tyranids munching on Chaos Worlds, I bring up the Warboss (whose name I can't remember) who invaded the Eye of Terror and smashed several planets before losing on a world only to be brought back every day to fight some more. Also, if they refuse to fight for their warlord/primarch, they're gonna get it real quick. Plus, they must fight, or else they will never achieve their ultimate goal of immortality as a daemon prince. So its not like they get a break any more than the loyalist chapters. Plus, some aliens could invade their ultimate home, such as the Orks, who are easily insane enough to try and already have, and the Tyranids, who are utterly souless and therefore immune to being eaten by daemons. Plus, they have the psychic might of the Hive Mind to back them up if they do, and I already showed an example of them fighting on a daemon world, so they would.

Son of Sanguinius
11-08-2010, 01:42
True, but they are infinitely more prone to infighting than loyalists. They will take almost any excuse to slaughter worshipers of a rival god, if they bother to make one up at all. They regularly raid each other for supplies and slaves. There is often infighting among the same legion, as they jockey with one another for power/their god(s)'s favor. In the rulebook, it says that their loyalty is only to those stronger than themselves. Also, their existence in the Warp leaves them far more vulnerable to having their souls eaten by daemons of another god/their god. It also infinitely increases their risk of mutation into something mindless and feral. So their are factors balancing out their numbers.

You make a good point here, but it's basically a wash with the loyalists. Both sides consist of warriors whose only purpose and desire is to fight. So while the traitors have infighting to consider, they probably aren't spending anymore actual time fighting than the loyalists. Assuming even casualty rates, neither side is losing warriors faster.

I assume even casualty rates because despite how GW glorifies loyalist Marines and despite how overemphasized the "He's been fighting for 10k years" CSM point is, they really are a damn good match in tactics, strategy, and equipment.

Garven Dreis
11-08-2010, 01:45
I don't think that Fabius Bile is the be all to end all of Chaos Space Marine recruitment.

Son of Sanguinius
11-08-2010, 01:46
I don't think that Fabius Bile is the be all to end all of Chaos Space Marine recruitment.

You're probably right, but he does have to be given credit for being the best at what he does.

DarthMcBob
11-08-2010, 01:54
You make a good point here, but it's basically a wash with the loyalists. Both sides consist of warriors whose only purpose and desire is to fight. So while the traitors have infighting to consider, they probably aren't spending anymore actual time fighting than the loyalists. Assuming even casualty rates, neither side is losing warriors faster.

Well, their worlds are much closer to one another than the areas loyalists must often fight in, so they would spend less time in journeying between planets to fight each other. While this may not be too much just once or twice, over 10,000 years even a little bit can add up, no?


I assume even casualty rates because despite how GW glorifies loyalist Marines and despite how overemphasized the "He's been fighting for 10k years" CSM point is, they really are a damn good match in tactics, strategy, and equipment.

Most Chaos Marines have not been fighting for 10,000 years. Only exceptionally powerful champions, daemon princes, and a few stuck in Warp anomalies that make it seem like a lot less have. Even assuming an absurdly low (given the amount of fighting they do) casualty rate of 10 per year, over 100,000 have died since the Horus Heresy. These would need to be replaced, meaning new recruits. That would mean that many thousands have not been fighting 10k years, just the legions that they are a part of. Kind of like the the Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, and other first founding chapters.

Son of Sanguinius
11-08-2010, 02:00
Well, their worlds are much closer to one another than the areas loyalists must often fight in, so they would spend less time in journeying between planets to fight each other. While this may not be too much just once or twice, over 10,000 years even a little bit can add up, no?

Difficult to say in a realm where physics supposedly get wishywashy. And there are a large number of traitor Astartes who are not based in the Eye who have to be considered too.


Most Chaos Marines have not been fighting for 10,000 years. Only exceptionally powerful champions, daemon princes, and a few stuck in Warp anomalies that make it seem like a lot less have. Even assuming an absurdly low (given the amount of fighting they do) casualty rate of 10 per year, over 100,000 have died since the Horus Heresy. These would need to be replaced, meaning new recruits. That would mean that many thousands have not been fighting 10k years, just the legions that they are a part of. Kind of like the the Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, and other first founding chapters.

Totally agree with you here, which is what I meant when I said "overemphasized" and why I think on a logistics and tactical scale, the two sides are a match.

DarthMcBob
11-08-2010, 02:24
Difficult to say in a realm where physics supposedly get wishywashy. And there are a large number of traitor Astartes who are not based in the Eye who have to be considered too.

True, but these are mostly attacked by the Imperium (or aliens) until:

a. They are destroyed utterly (such as the Death Shadows I mentioned earlier, which were gobbled up by the Tyranids).
b. Retreat into the Warp and beg protection of the Dark Gods (such as the Red Corsairs, which retreated into the Maelstrom).


Totally agree with you here, which is what I meant when I said "overemphasized" and why I think on a logistics and tactical scale, the two sides are a match.

I'd say they are a match only for so long as the Imperium's other resources aren't considered. They have many times more men, ships, vehicles, and worlds than their Chaos enemies do. That is why so many minor xenos races have been exterminated over the millennia. The Imperium has enough forces to outmatch the Chaos Space Marines, they just can't use them all on them.

Zerox
11-08-2010, 21:41
There's definetly a lot of them. If there's like a million space marines or more in the galaxy, then I would presume there would be even more chaos marines

ashc
11-08-2010, 21:55
way too difficult to quantify with very little information available, although if forced to give an answer mine falls with Son of Sanguinius.

Hunger
12-08-2010, 14:36
I assume even casualty rates because despite how GW glorifies loyalist Marines and despite how overemphasized the "He's been fighting for 10k years" CSM point is, they really are a damn good match in tactics, strategy, and equipment.

I understand that this is not your point, Son Of Sanguinius, but its worth stating that Chaos Space Marines in the eye do not have 10,000 of fighting experience - 10,000 years have elapsed in the material universe since the Horus Heresy, however to the Chaos Marines it has been a much shorter amount of time due to the fact that time flows differently in the Warp.

Quite how many years' experience they have may vary greatly depending on the particular region of the Eye they inhabit (because the rate of time-flow is likely to not be uniform throughout the Eye), but it can be assumed that most Chaos Marines have battle experience roughly equivalent to their Imperial counterparts. Of course, there are certainly some powerful individuals that have truly lived for thousands of years, but then the Imperium has its share of heroes like Dante and Bjorn The Tincan to match them.

abasio
12-08-2010, 15:04
I'd say they are a match only for so long as the Imperium's other resources aren't considered. They have many times more men, ships, vehicles, and worlds than their Chaos enemies do. That is why so many minor xenos races have been exterminated over the millennia. The Imperium has enough forces to outmatch the Chaos Space Marines, they just can't use them all on them.

Don't forget renegade guard, cultists & daemons that the CSMs have as backup.


I understand that this is not your point, Son Of Sanguinius, but its worth stating that Chaos Space Marines in the eye do not have 10,000 of fighting experience - 10,000 years have elapsed in the material universe since the Horus Heresy, however to the Chaos Marines it has been a much shorter amount of time due to the fact that time flows differently in the Warp.


When it comes to the warp why do so many people seem to read "time flows differently" as "time flows slower" if it flows differently then it might be faster, quicker or even backwards. With all the weird time dilation 10,000 years may still be the average with some CSMs feeling like it's just a few years from the Heresy whereas others (I'm thinking champions & daemon princes here) may have been part of the Great Game for hundreds of thousands of years by their own perspective.

Hellebore
12-08-2010, 15:20
When it comes to the warp why do so many people seem to read "time flows differently" as "time flows slower" if it flows differently then it might be faster, quicker or even backwards. With all the weird time dilation 10,000 years may still be the average with some CSMs feeling like it's just a few years from the Heresy whereas others (I'm thinking champions & daemon princes here) may have been part of the Great Game for hundreds of thousands of years by their own perspective.

+1

Either people say time 'flows slower' or they admit that there could be just as many marines with 200 years experience as 200,000 years experience.

You could have a marine that was 10,000 years old come out only 300 years old because somehow time flowed in reverse and they regressed to a younger version.

You could have a marine that stepped out of the heresy and straight into a fight in the 41st millennium with the knowledge of a million years of warfare without ever having fought it.

Time flowing differently is not a convenient way of proving that chaos marines are less than 10,000 years old, it's just a way of showing how random and bizarre chaos and the eye of terror actually are.

Hellebore

Son of Sanguinius
12-08-2010, 16:27
I understand that this is not your point, Son Of Sanguinius, but its worth stating that Chaos Space Marines in the eye do not have 10,000 of fighting experience - 10,000 years have elapsed in the material universe since the Horus Heresy, however to the Chaos Marines it has been a much shorter amount of time due to the fact that time flows differently in the Warp.

Quite how many years' experience they have may vary greatly depending on the particular region of the Eye they inhabit (because the rate of time-flow is likely to not be uniform throughout the Eye), but it can be assumed that most Chaos Marines have battle experience roughly equivalent to their Imperial counterparts. Of course, there are certainly some powerful individuals that have truly lived for thousands of years, but then the Imperium has its share of heroes like Dante and Bjorn The Tincan to match them.

Actually, that is exactly my point.

Hunger
12-08-2010, 18:11
When it comes to the warp why do so many people seem to read "time flows differently" as "time flows slower"

Because thats the official line that GW take on the Chaos Marine situation - they are the same Marines that fought in the Heresy, come back a hundred or so years later to hit the Imperium, but 10,00 years have passed in the material realm. In all the Horus Heresy series, as well as other BL books (I can remember Soul Hunter off the top of my head), the Marines are still 'in the moment' of the Heresy, even though we know that time has elapsed.


if it flows differently then it might be faster, quicker or even backwards.


You could have a marine that was 10,000 years old come out only 300 years old because somehow time flowed in reverse and they regressed to a younger version.

You could have a marine that stepped out of the heresy and straight into a fight in the 41st millennium with the knowledge of a million years of warfare without ever having fought it.

I would love to buy into this idea, but from the point of view of the big picture making sense its just not possible for me to get my head around. My brain needs to account for the Chaos Marine's experience - if he truly has 1 milllion years battle experience, then how did he get that experience? He surely has not lived a million years (I do not believe for a second that Astartes are immortal, they age and that means they slow down, become less supple and strong and hence will die of old age one day). I can believe they live to be 100, 500, even 1000 in exception cases, but a warrior with 1000 years experience should be on par with Dante.

Again, I can believe that there are a few champions with this level of experience and skill, but if time flowed like this in whole regions of the Eye the effects would produce lots of Chaos Marines with Dante's abilities - clearly they do not exist, or the average CSM (mean stats, taking into consideration all CSMs in existannce) would be much, much tougher.

Likewise, if a champion only experienced a year go by, but actually 10,000 years had passed in the material universe - why is that CSM as skillful and battle-experienced as a 200 year old Ultramarine? I don't like the 'chaos made it so' magic-wand solution - that Marine is as good as a 200 year old Ultramarine because he is himself 200 years old.

Given the skill of the average loyalist and the skill of the average CSM are about equal, and there are not disproportionately more CSM 'heroes' as there are SM heroes, we must conclude that the average experience gathering time across the Eye is limited to the same amount of time as loyalists experience - lets say 200 years for the average Marine decreasing proportionally until you have some exceptional individuals who exceed the 1000 year mark (talking about regular CSMs, not daemons and princes and immortal characters like Lucius).

Now how you decide the method of experience gathering is up to you - tim surely does flow differently in different areas, but the only CSMs we will ever hear about are the ones who spend their entire lives in regions where time flows always toward the future - ergo the only solution that can reconcile the average skill of a CSM with the average skill of a loyalist CSM is the above.

Brother Antonios
14-08-2010, 03:13
Soul Hunter makes a good read, indicating how much technology and DM are needed to create a new CSM. It's a ton of resources that the CSM chapters just don't have access too. They are slowly dying out due to attrition, in another 10k years only a few CSM will be left and most of the forces will be cultists and demon based creatures. Even the cloning process takes tons of resources, it's why only the Iron Warriors and Black Legion have pulled it off in any significant number so far. And as the background indicates a cloned CSM is only about 2/3rds at best, as good as a full Geneseed developed one.

Raxmei
14-08-2010, 03:48
I'd expect there to be fewer Chaos marines than loyalists. They fled to the Eye because they lost the war. Loyalist troops seized or destroyed their worlds in Imperial space, forcing them to abandon their facilities and take shelter in unstable regions. Loyal marines had the advantage coming out of the Heresy and have had a larger resource base to work from since then.

RunepriestRidcully
14-08-2010, 08:09
But isn't it said modern day loyalist marines are not as good as ones from the heresy, I am sure there was something that said that in the 3.5 codex

Nazguire
14-08-2010, 13:58
But isn't it said modern day loyalist marines are not as good as ones from the heresy, I am sure there was something that said that in the 3.5 codex

That was from a Chaos Marine's view. So it's obviously biased.

Hellebore
15-08-2010, 01:13
Soul Hunter makes a good read, indicating how much technology and DM are needed to create a new CSM. It's a ton of resources that the CSM chapters just don't have access too. They are slowly dying out due to attrition, in another 10k years only a few CSM will be left and most of the forces will be cultists and demon based creatures. Even the cloning process takes tons of resources, it's why only the Iron Warriors and Black Legion have pulled it off in any significant number so far. And as the background indicates a cloned CSM is only about 2/3rds at best, as good as a full Geneseed developed one.

Well that makes the chaos marines pretty pathetic then doesn't it? If the imperium just sits tight they'll simply die out. It turns them from a credible threat into a rabble without a hope.

Which makes the concept of Black Crusades and the traitor legions coming back for revenge pretty laughable. you'd think if they could build improbable space ships in the eye that they'd be able to build improbable space marines.

If this is canon then so be it. But all it does is dilute the threat of the traitors whilst making loyalist marines even more uber because they get everything.

I much preferred the immediate threat of the chaos legions rather than the last gasp this seems to describe. The imperium was right and the traitors were wrong, proven by the karmic justice of them fading away. They defeated themselves.

Hellebore

Iracundus
15-08-2010, 04:15
Well that makes the chaos marines pretty pathetic then doesn't it? If the imperium just sits tight they'll simply die out. It turns them from a credible threat into a rabble without a hope.

Which makes the concept of Black Crusades and the traitor legions coming back for revenge pretty laughable. you'd think if they could build improbable space ships in the eye that they'd be able to build improbable space marines.

If this is canon then so be it. But all it does is dilute the threat of the traitors whilst making loyalist marines even more uber because they get everything.

I much preferred the immediate threat of the chaos legions rather than the last gasp this seems to describe. The imperium was right and the traitors were wrong, proven by the karmic justice of them fading away. They defeated themselves.

Hellebore

The 2nd edition Chaos Codex clearly states the Legions are recruiting and making new CSM from the slave warriors on the worlds in the Eye of Terror.

The example in Soul Hunter just shows that warbands may lack the capacity to make new Marines. However large warbands or the large Legion fragments may retain this. Smaller warbands might then have to either buy or trade favors for new recruits.

Hellebore
15-08-2010, 05:10
The example I quoted said only the Black Legion and Iron Warriors were capable of making more marines and that it was really hard and not going very well.

Contrast that with the 2nd ed idea that they were all recruiting and bulking up their forces, regardless of legion.

Renegade warbands obviously have few resources, but the legions should still have enough. However Soul Hunter according to Brother Antonios says that only the Black Legion and Iron Warriors are capable of it. Which makes the Emperor's Children, Death Guard, Word Bearers etc look pretty pathetic.


Hellebore

Iracundus
15-08-2010, 05:57
The example I quoted said only the Black Legion and Iron Warriors were capable of making more marines and that it was really hard and not going very well.


I don't see a direct quoted passage from a source. You quoted Brother Antonios and his claim based on a reading of Soul Hunter but that is not a primary source quote.

In contrast I can offer a direct quote from a primary source. Though it does not explicitly specify particular Legions, its portrayal is certainly suggestive of a far more active ongoing recruitment process:



Within the Eye the Traitor Legions fight constant wars amongst themselves for gene-seed, slaves, resources, or martial honour. New Chaos Space Marines are recruited from the most dangerous heretics that are drawn into the Eye by the lure of Chaos, or else selected from the masses of slave-warriors who fight eternal battles for the amusement of the Dark Gods. The implantation of recruits is a brutal affair, quite unlike the carefully measured program of development used by Imperial Space Marines. Whether the candidate lives or dies is left to the will of the Chaos Gods. Initiation rites are similarly debased and savage, ensuring that only the toughest initiates ever survive. p. 19, 2nd edition Chaos Codex.

TheSanityAssassin
15-08-2010, 06:03
The BL books seem to get it mixed up quite regularly too.

Compare Soul Hunter, where Abbadon's force is like....2,000 Black Legion and I think....500 Night Lords or somesuch to Dark Creed where the Word Bearers drop 14,000 marines onto a planet, which is no where near their full strength according to the book, which also states that they are outnumbered like 10-1 by the Black Legion.


I really think the "as many as there needs to be to fill out the fluff" is the best answer. My thought is that THEY don't even know what exists outside of their own warband in most situations. The higher ups of the more "stable" legions (Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, Black Legion) might have an idea of their own strength, but that's about it I would say.

Hellebore
15-08-2010, 06:06
I don't see a direct quoted passage from a source. You quoted Brother Antonios and his claim based on a reading of Soul Hunter but that is not a primary source quote.

In contrast I can offer a direct quote from a primary source. Though it does not explicitly specify particular Legions, its portrayal is certainly suggestive of a far more active ongoing recruitment process:

I was responding to his statement. Nothing more. My statements were made under the proviso that what Brother Antonios said was an accurate distillation of the novel. I was simply saying if this is true, then it's pretty lame. Unless I actually own the book, putting something in quotations doesn't prove it's a primary source. I can't verify the authenticity.

Brother Antonios said that's what it said and even were he to put it in quotations with a page number I'd have no knowledge of its authenticity. I only know your assertion of what the 2nd ed chaos codex said is true because I own it and can verify it myself. You didn't actually provide a quote, you just said 'it's in the chaos codex', which isn't a legitimate quote in any circles I know of. EDIT: You did after posting.

Hellebore

Iracundus
15-08-2010, 06:29
I was responding to his statement. Nothing more. My statements were made under the proviso that what Brother Antonios said was an accurate distillation of the novel. I was simply saying if this is true, then it's pretty lame. Unless I actually own the book, putting something in quotations doesn't prove it's a primary source. I can't verify the authenticity.

The reason I am questioning the allusion to Soul Hunter is the lack of a direct reference which can be verified by those that do have a copy. While the warband in Soul Hunter was certainly impoverished in both manpower and equipment, I do not recall any specific statement saying only Iron Warriors and the Black Legion did any significant recruiting, hence why the request for a quote.

Nazguire
17-08-2010, 11:33
Doesn't the current Chaos Codex describe how the Death Guard and World Eaters at least recruit new Berserkers and Plague Marines (or just World Eaters and Death Guard, as all World Eaters/Death Guard are Berserkers/Plague Marines) ?

I don't have the Codex on hand to provide a quote for Iracundus' satisfaction, but it's in there for any one who wants to have a look.

Remember that Soul Hunter is seen from a particularly disenchanted Night Lord Apothecary whom is part of a dying Company due to a daemonically possessed Captain Vandred. If you were watching your once 1000 strong company dwindle to only a few dozen without hope, and after 10,000 years the Imperium was still standing, you'd be melancholic too.

Not all Chaos Marines are mindless, berserker fanatics. Some would actually think on the matter of their conflict with the Imperium, particularly those from Legions who split from the Imperium for less Warp-powered reasons (such as the Night Lords, Iron Warriors [Forrix is a prime example] and Alpha Legion)

Dark Creed does an excellent job of showing both the power of the Legions and the limitations. They can utterly obliterate any foe, (5 billion Guardsmen if we're to believe them...:wtf:) but they can't get anywhere and there just aren't enough of them.

Lupe
17-08-2010, 16:10
The Night Lords might actually be an exception to the rule altogether. Not just the Exalted's warband, but the legion as a whole. Remember, most of them haven't fully embraced Chaos and are more or less committed to the Night Haunter's call for vengeance.

The other legions who support one or more of the Chaos powers wholeheartedly might actually fare better. After all, the favor of a warp entity that draws power from all the beings in the galaxy is likely to earn them some victories. A forge world, or some poorly defended loyalist supply depots, maybe even an encounter with like-minded defectors...

Nazguire
17-08-2010, 23:54
The Night Lords might actually be an exception to the rule altogether. Not just the Exalted's warband, but the legion as a whole. Remember, most of them haven't fully embraced Chaos and are more or less committed to the Night Haunter's call for vengeance.

The other legions who support one or more of the Chaos powers wholeheartedly might actually fare better. After all, the favor of a warp entity that draws power from all the beings in the galaxy is likely to earn them some victories. A forge world, or some poorly defended loyalist supply depots, maybe even an encounter with like-minded defectors...

You might have a point. The Iron Warriors to me personally seem like the most level headed, sensible and organized of the Legions (compared to real life of course) so they'd probably put a lot of effort into recruitment. (Well, they do, we know from various sources)

All the other Legions take their various personality quirks to extremes, including the Night Lords (at least those under Acerbus, who commands most of the Legion)

The Cult Legions, whilst able to recruit, would be more caught up in doing their Cult shenanigans than actual military organization.

Pushkin
18-08-2010, 10:11
I thought the World Eaters got apothecaries (including Dr. Bile) to do the pyscho-lobotomy surgery for them. Presumably they'd take anyone from any legion/chapter providing they were loyal to the blood god and had the surgery?

With regards to Soul hunter, i got the impression from the novel that the whole lack of equipment/resources was in reference to that warband and that it didn't reflect the fact that other parts of the Night Lord Legion were doing much better. Similarly wasn't that also down to the fact that some guys joined abbaddon and the black legion?

Nazguire
19-08-2010, 00:31
The Apothecaries still do it. They now have the 12 year old title of Berserker-Surgeons. The only good thing about this part of the background is that it shows the World Eaters still retain some type of organization.

IMHO the 10th Company isn't representative of the Legion as a whole. The company seems to have been worn down by attrition and the whims of a meglomaniac.