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eyescrossed
11-08-2010, 10:58
After nearly having my General killed last game, I've been wondering how to make him more survivable.

Sure, you can give him/her the Flayed Hauberk and Talisman of Preservation (and that's great protection right there) but is there any other way to make them more survivable? I've been wracking my brain and I can't think of anything.

Ophidian
11-08-2010, 11:12
If it's pure survivability you're after, isn't there an item that can make him ethereal? Add that to some hefty MR (or ward+MR) and you're good to go. Probably looking at most of your magic item allowance there though

Symrivven
11-08-2010, 11:18
You can't take magic items if you are ethereal, so that wouldn't work.

eyescrossed
11-08-2010, 12:07
What Symrivven said.

Rake
11-08-2010, 12:14
My basic thought on this is that items go only so far in protecting your lord. If you don't want him to die, careful placement and careful movement are the way to go. I tend to bunker my lords (due to Crumble special rule), hiding them in a large unit of skeletons throught the game while blocking line of sight to them with a corpse cart or Varghulf from the unaviodable Death Lore sniping. Other than that getting a 4+ ward (regen isnt worth it anymore with people realizing the power of Killing Blow and the number of flaming attacks in the game) and some MR into his unit will let you move saftely. But you will be vulnerable to Close Combat. You will always be because you cant itemize for ALL tasks and being a caster is MUCH more important that beating somebody in close combat (unless you are going for a fun or fluff army list)

Ophidian
11-08-2010, 13:22
You can't take magic items if you are ethereal, so that wouldn't work.

Buggeration

eyescrossed
11-08-2010, 13:31
My basic thought on this is that items go only so far in protecting your lord. If you don't want him to die, careful placement and careful movement are the way to go. I tend to bunker my lords (due to Crumble special rule), hiding them in a large unit of skeletons throught the game while blocking line of sight to them with a corpse cart or Varghulf from the unaviodable Death Lore sniping. Other than that getting a 4+ ward (regen isnt worth it anymore with people realizing the power of Killing Blow and the number of flaming attacks in the game) and some MR into his unit will let you move saftely. But you will be vulnerable to Close Combat. You will always be because you cant itemize for ALL tasks and being a caster is MUCH more important that beating somebody in close combat (unless you are going for a fun or fluff army list)

I find Bunker Lords very boring, and I've found you can have a mix of both.

For example, a Lord with an extra level, Forbidden Lore: Vampires (or Dark Acolyte), Lord of the Dead (or Summon Ghouls), Infinite Hatred, Beguile, Sword of Bloodshed, Crown of the Damned and the Charmed Shield is pretty effective at casting and combat in my opinion.

smithers
11-08-2010, 14:15
My basic thought on this is that items go only so far in protecting your lord. If you don't want him to die, careful placement and careful movement are the way to go. I tend to bunker my lords (due to Crumble special rule), hiding them in a large unit of skeletons throught the game while blocking line of sight to them with a corpse cart or Varghulf from the unaviodable Death Lore sniping. Other than that getting a 4+ ward (regen isnt worth it anymore with people realizing the power of Killing Blow and the number of flaming attacks in the game) and some MR into his unit will let you move saftely. But you will be vulnerable to Close Combat. You will always be because you cant itemize for ALL tasks and being a caster is MUCH more important that beating somebody in close combat (unless you are going for a fun or fluff army list)

Direct damage spells (Lore of Death sniping) don't require line of sight.

Scythe
11-08-2010, 14:23
Thing is, you really benefit from having a good armour save in 8th edition, as you can expect a large amount of base infantry attacks in return, regardless of how many you kill, and a 4+ ward only goes so far against massed S3/S4 attacks. So, a 2+ or 1+ armour save is very usefull. Unfortunately, there is only one alternative for getting such save, next to magic armour (the hauberk), which comes with dread knight. Avatar of death only comes with a 4+ armour max (which could be increased to 3+ with several magic armours). Additionaly, all wards are in the armour or talisman section as well, limiting your options for making a good defensive build, especially as dread knight makes your look out sir roll quite unreliable. Provided that's not considered a problem, your best defensive build has something like a 2+/4++ (from dread knight and a talisman), plus kb/poison immuunity (cuirass) or an 1+ instead (dragonhelm/enchanted shield).

Of course, you have offensive items which boost your health like the blood drinker, but those are generally considered quite expensive for what they do, and limit offensive potential. If you are afraid of losing your lord to infantry, it might just work though.

Core of the problem is (if you would call it that way; the defensive ability of a vampire certainly isn't terrible... it is just that the entire army depends on it) that bloodline powers give you almost no extra means of increasing survivability. Ethereal cannot be combined with magic items, otherwise it would be great. Dread knight and avatar are just equipment options with a high price tag and very limited flexibility. And that's pretty much it. Compared to the 6th edition book, you could buy ward save / always strike first as Lahmian, had access to +1W / regeneration as Strigoi, etc, all as bloodline powers.

SideshowLucifer
11-08-2010, 14:33
I run my lord in a unit of skeletons behind a wall of 50 zombies. I don't usualy have to worry about him getting into combat very often or being shot or spel snipped.
The thing I worry about is cuped hands killing my lord off, but a ward save is pretty much all I can do agaisnt that.

Symrivven
11-08-2010, 14:47
Instagib on miscast is 3 or less on the 2-4 result which has a chance of happening of 1/12. (you can't make ward saves vs this)

All other results wont kill your lord, causing maximal 1 wound and killing some cannon fodder If there is one race capable of healing this then its VC, especially if you have a caster lord.

As for death spells, our lords with ld 10 will not be that susceptible for the first spells as many others and has pretty decent stats to deal with the other 2 as well. (Though I wont deny they can hurt a lot)

If you are really afraid of magic take a 4+ ward and magic resistance 2 for a 2++ vs magic. Magic resistance can even be carried by a hero in the same unit. Or you take both on one lord with the 50pnt armour and the 30point talisman.

fall3nang3l
11-08-2010, 21:36
You probably just unlucky. The setup you posted is about as survivable as you can get for magic items. the other half is deployment and tactics etc. But if you really want to be survivable as hell, Flayed Hauberk and carstein ring. Not exactly plausible but possible. good for larger point games when the general becomes more important and you have more points to throw around

rodmillard
11-08-2010, 22:43
Instagib on miscast is 3 or less on the 2-4 result which has a chance of happening of 1/12. (you can't make ward saves vs this)


Which is why my general never leaves the crypt without an Earthing Rod...

Next game with my vamps I am going to try forbidden lore (shadow) and use the school ability to hop him from bunker to bunker, swapping places with a combat hero when his unit gets into trouble. Not sure how viable it is going to be as a tactic, but we'll see.

artisturn
11-08-2010, 22:52
After nearly having my General killed last game, I've been wondering how to make him more survivable.

Sure, you can give him/her the Flayed Hauberk and Talisman of Preservation (and that's great protection right there) but is there any other way to make them more survivable? I've been wracking my brain and I can't think of anything.

Depends what you're trying to protect your self from, Wristbands of Black Gold is a bargain for its 3+ ward save against ranged attacks of any kind so it is a nice item that protects you from shooting and some magic attacks.

Axis
12-08-2010, 06:07
The Carstein Ring.

Symrivven
12-08-2010, 10:05
Which is why my general never leaves the crypt without an Earthing Rod...


One in twelve after a miscast is not something I'm going to build my lord around. But feel free to do so for extra safety ^^


The Carstein Ring.

It works versus all kinds of deaths, but at 70 points its a bit overpriced imo, it is more or less the same as a 4+ ward save. On a 5/6 it doubles your effective wounds (once) while a 4+ wardsave also effectively doubles your wounds (its actually a bit more complicated).

carstein ring
+ Works versus every type of death/wound lost).
- 30 point more expensive than 4++.
- Fails on a 1 (which is a lot for a 70point item imo).

4++

+ As long as you can keep healing you can keep using it.
+ Easier to survive between 2 magic phases with 4++ and thus easier to heal before deign.
-Can be bypassed or reduced by some effects (unstable, slain, shard thingy).

Marshal Torrick
12-08-2010, 16:32
Here's my vamp lord, run in the front rank of 30 spear skellies and next to my GG block housing the BSB:

Lord
+level
Forbidden Lore(death), +2PD
2+As, Crown of Damned(4+WS, stupid), Staff of Damnation

Survivable, adds a lot of oomph to my speak skellies with his own attacks and his staff allowing the spears and the GG to attack once in the magic phase too. Stupidity is mitigated by the BSB nearby. Also helps his troops by the Death debuffs as well as eliminating annoying enemy charecters.

Bob Arctor
12-08-2010, 16:46
Well the Lord I have been using for years has the following:

Blood Drinker, The Cadaverous Cuirass, Crown of the Damned, Forbidden Lore (Vampires), Dark Acolyte, Lord of the Dead, Summon Creatures of the Night.

He's not quite as effective in this edition but 4+ward, immunity to poison and killing blow and regaining wounds from the Blood Drinker make him very hard to kill.

Failing that, take Vlad. Gets the best of both worlds out of his Carstein Ring.

LordTurdTickler
12-08-2010, 21:46
I'm sorry. there are all types of magical armor that provide some pretty awesome protection, but when it comes down to it, I will always use the nightshroud.

The fact is that rather than just taking tons of saves I would rather have my lord usually striking first, negating impact hits, and pumping out attacks. make him a nightmare in CC is how I protect him. If he really does get hurt, i can usually count on IoN to bring him back up.

However, I like a CC lord. for a magic based vamp i suppose tons of armor dreadknight + Dragonhelm + Dawnstone might be a viable option... it just seems like more than is necessary to ensure your lord doesn't get cut down.

Alltaken
12-08-2010, 23:25
Lore of Death pretty much is a case appart, not much you can do there since many of the spells as far as I recall are direct damage and not magic missiles, so there's no MR (please correct if I'm wrong, didn't read the book till the end yet).

My personal taste is make it agrresive and let it have red hunger (?) and recover wounds on the wounds it makes. Go agrresive defense

eyescrossed
13-08-2010, 07:43
Thing is, you really benefit from having a good armour save in 8th edition, as you can expect a large amount of base infantry attacks in return, regardless of how many you kill, and a 4+ ward only goes so far against massed S3/S4 attacks. So, a 2+ or 1+ armour save is very usefull. Unfortunately, there is only one alternative for getting such save, next to magic armour (the hauberk), which comes with dread knight. Avatar of death only comes with a 4+ armour max (which could be increased to 3+ with several magic armours). Additionaly, all wards are in the armour or talisman section as well, limiting your options for making a good defensive build, especially as dread knight makes your look out sir roll quite unreliable. Provided that's not considered a problem, your best defensive build has something like a 2+/4++ (from dread knight and a talisman), plus kb/poison immuunity (cuirass) or an 1+ instead (dragonhelm/enchanted shield).

Of course, you have offensive items which boost your health like the blood drinker, but those are generally considered quite expensive for what they do, and limit offensive potential. If you are afraid of losing your lord to infantry, it might just work though.

Core of the problem is (if you would call it that way; the defensive ability of a vampire certainly isn't terrible... it is just that the entire army depends on it) that bloodline powers give you almost no extra means of increasing survivability. Ethereal cannot be combined with magic items, otherwise it would be great. Dread knight and avatar are just equipment options with a high price tag and very limited flexibility. And that's pretty much it. Compared to the 6th edition book, you could buy ward save / always strike first as Lahmian, had access to +1W / regeneration as Strigoi, etc, all as bloodline powers.
Agreed on all parts, and thanks for the big insightful post!



I run my lord in a unit of skeletons behind a wall of 50 zombies. I don't usualy have to worry about him getting into combat very often or being shot or spel snipped.
The thing I worry about is cuped hands killing my lord off, but a ward save is pretty much all I can do agaisnt that.
Damn I hate that Cupped Hands :shifty:



You probably just unlucky. The setup you posted is about as survivable as you can get for magic items. the other half is deployment and tactics etc. But if you really want to be survivable as hell, Flayed Hauberk and carstein ring. Not exactly plausible but possible. good for larger point games when the general becomes more important and you have more points to throw around
I've actually come up with a new one below :evilgrin:



Depends what you're trying to protect your self from, Wristbands of Black Gold is a bargain for its 3+ ward save against ranged attacks of any kind so it is a nice item that protects you from shooting and some magic attacks.
Well yeah, but my Lord isn't going to be targeted by much shooting in his big cushy unit of Grave Guard :D



The Carstein Ring.
If it didn't cost so much and I could get a Ward Save while using it, then yeah.



Here's my vamp lord, run in the front rank of 30 spear skellies and next to my GG block housing the BSB:

Lord
+level
Forbidden Lore(death), +2PD
2+As, Crown of Damned(4+WS, stupid), Staff of Damnation

Survivable, adds a lot of oomph to my speak skellies with his own attacks and his staff allowing the spears and the GG to attack once in the magic phase too. Stupidity is mitigated by the BSB nearby. Also helps his troops by the Death debuffs as well as eliminating annoying enemy charecters.
Good combo. I'd consider using it if it didn't make my Lord weak (well, weak for a Vampire Lord at least)



Well the Lord I have been using for years has the following:

Blood Drinker, The Cadaverous Cuirass, Crown of the Damned, Forbidden Lore (Vampires), Dark Acolyte, Lord of the Dead, Summon Creatures of the Night.

He's not quite as effective in this edition but 4+ward, immunity to poison and killing blow and regaining wounds from the Blood Drinker make him very hard to kill.

Failing that, take Vlad. Gets the best of both worlds out of his Carstein Ring.
Pretty cool. I can see it working quite well :)

What really annoys me about Vlad is that he doesn't have any armour... Yet his model does :eyebrows:



I'm sorry. there are all types of magical armor that provide some pretty awesome protection, but when it comes down to it, I will always use the nightshroud.

The fact is that rather than just taking tons of saves I would rather have my lord usually striking first, negating impact hits, and pumping out attacks. make him a nightmare in CC is how I protect him. If he really does get hurt, i can usually count on IoN to bring him back up.

However, I like a CC lord. for a magic based vamp i suppose tons of armor dreadknight + Dragonhelm + Dawnstone might be a viable option... it just seems like more than is necessary to ensure your lord doesn't get cut down.
Hahaha, I like the Nightshroud too! It just doesn't exactly do anything against bog standard infantry :(

The bottom one's good, but a bit vulnerable... I'd consider at least a 5+ Ward save.

Oh, and my Lord: Vampire Lord with the Flayed Hauberk, Crown of the Damned, Sword of Strife, Lord of the Dead, Dark Acolyte, Infinite Hatred, Beguile and extra magic level 450

So a 2+ Armour save and a 4+ Ward save on a Lvl4 caster with rerolls to Hit and rerolls to Wound around 50% of the time with 6 Str5 attacks.

Reckon it's good?

eyescrossed
13-08-2010, 07:46
Lore of Death pretty much is a case appart, not much you can do there since many of the spells as far as I recall are direct damage and not magic missiles, so there's no MR (please correct if I'm wrong, didn't read the book till the end yet).

My personal taste is make it agrresive and let it have red hunger (?) and recover wounds on the wounds it makes. Go agrresive defense

I'm not sure about the MR thing, but I like your idea.

I'd use it if Red Fury didn't cost so much, though.

Scythe
13-08-2010, 07:55
Oh, and my Lord: Vampire Lord with the Flayed Hauberk, Crown of the Damned, Sword of Strife, Lord of the Dead, Dark Acolyte, Infinite Hatred, Beguile and extra magic level 450

So a 2+ Armour save and a 4+ Ward save on a Lvl4 caster with rerolls to Hit and rerolls to Wound around 50% of the time with 6 Str5 attacks.

Reckon it's good?

Sounds good, though he probably won't be a character to bring against enemy characters (armour is his bane with S5... and he remains quite vulnerable to things like killing blow). Will slice through infantry nicely though.

eyescrossed
13-08-2010, 08:09
Sounds good, though he probably won't be a character to bring against enemy characters (armour is his bane with S5... and he remains quite vulnerable to things like killing blow). Will slice through infantry nicely though.

Agreed :)

But what even has Killing Blow?

Tomb Scorpions, Tomb Guard, Grave Guard, Wight Kings, DE Executioners, and... I can't even think of anything else :o

Lijacote
13-08-2010, 10:09
A lot of character hunter-killers have Killing Blow, but as for units: Khorne daemons, DE units blessed by the Cauldron's KB option and Assassins. As for wood elves, Wardancers can have KB as can Waywatchers (was it Killing Shot?). Can't remember others at this early hour. It's not even 2 PM.

Nocculum
13-08-2010, 10:25
For larger games I'd run:

Vampire Lord
Level 3
Dread Knight, Red Fury, Infinite Hatred
Armour of Fortune, Blood Drinker, Dawnstone
455

Expensive, but a 2+ re-rollable armour save, 5+ ward, regaining wounds, level 3 caster and re-roll to hit and additional attacks will more than keep him alive.

Symrivven
13-08-2010, 10:32
Lore of Death pretty much is a case appart, not much you can do there since many of the spells as far as I recall are direct damage and not magic missiles, so there's no MR (please correct if I'm wrong, didn't read the book till the end yet).

My personal taste is make it agrresive and let it have red hunger (?) and recover wounds on the wounds it makes. Go agrresive defense


I'm not sure about the MR thing, but I like your idea.

I'd use it if Red Fury didn't cost so much, though.

Magic resistance improves or grants you a wardsave against all damage caused by spells. It doenst work against things that slay outright (purple sun) or things that don't damage you.