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King_Pash
11-08-2010, 15:58
Just thinking, who would you think is the best army for magic is? ie. most powerful, most versatile, least situational etc.

Sandals
11-08-2010, 16:01
as long as we're not talking SCs, then Lizards. Slann > other wizards :)

cybercaine
11-08-2010, 16:28
I voted for Lizardmen. But I do think that potentially 3 armies are better if they use particular characters. DoC with Kairos, VC with Manfred Man and +2 to cast and dispel, and HE with Teclis should all have more potent magic phases. But if you ignore those 3 sc casters, LM should be a better magic army.

Desert Rain
11-08-2010, 16:48
Without special characters Lizardmen, with special High Elves with Teclis.

I voted for Lizardmen since special characters are the exception rather than the rule, at least where I play.

SamVimes
11-08-2010, 16:55
I voted H. elves because of Teclis. Otherwise, Lizards.

Phaedron2
11-08-2010, 16:57
I voted High Elves for Teclis, and the magic phase enhancing items. If I had to pick a non magic using SC, then Slann

Tenken
11-08-2010, 17:02
My votes for lizardmen even with SCs. Slann is still way more survivable than Teclis could ever dream of being, especially if they're ethereal and/or in a big ol' block of TG.

Karios might be the one exception to this, but DoC are dumb.

manista
11-08-2010, 17:05
wow im really hurt that the vampire counts arnt there seeing they can take every single lore

Kadris
11-08-2010, 17:10
I voted lizard, assuming by "magic army" you mean the best "casting" army. There is a dwarf player at my store who gains 4 extra dispel dice and one of my PD as DD, i never get magic off except if its IF.

Tenken
11-08-2010, 17:10
wow im really hurt that the vampire counts arnt there seeing they can take every single lore

They aren't even close to alone in that department. Besides, life, shadow and death are arguably the only lores anyone would care about in a competitive capacity.

Enigmatik1
11-08-2010, 17:11
wow im really hurt that the vampire counts arnt there seeing they can take every single lore

I'm just as hurt that Tomb Kings managed to make this poll at all. The only way TK can really qualify is with a "Dunce Cap" King who gets extremely lucky with his lore/spell rolls and the Casket of Souls. Even then, it's too conditional to really count as powerful imo and is a LOT of points. :D

Vampire Counts are still a more magically imposing army than Tomb Kings. Tomb Kings magic can be oppressive, but it's anything but powerful in and of itself and is always extremely situational.

I'm just not seeing anything (outside of SCs) be able to touch the Slann with all things considered.

Kneedles
11-08-2010, 17:33
I voted High Elves.
Well, 1st I would vote Teclis, but without special characters still probably them.

HE mages can pick any of the BRB lores, and have an item that lets them pick spells.
They have a banner of getting bonus power dice. (Banner of Sorcery) +d3
+1 to dispel across the entire army.
Book of Hoeth for mini Teclis.
And they have a low cost bound item that does a 2d6 str 4 attacks. (Ring of Fury)
High magic has low casting values, and FLAMES OF THE PHOENIX. This spell kills ENTIRE units.

They also have a banner that nullifies spells targeting that unit, which helps against the scary BRB lores now in play. (Banner of the World Dragon)

Harwammer
11-08-2010, 17:40
VC are... in a way.

Their ability to spam both power dice and duplicate spells, including death spells (thus farming more power dice, working around the 12 pd limit) whilst using almost any lore. The only problem is this would cost so many points that to achieve that the enemy would probably be able to completely outmatch VC on other counts/stakes...

In other words in a raw power / points is no issue perspective VC are a strong contender, but when points come in to the equation they don't look quite so hot.

Max_Killfactor
11-08-2010, 17:40
1) LM. Slann are harder to kill than teclis.
2) HE. Teclis is a monster. He should cause terror imo and maybe get a stomp attack
3) Kairos
4) DE with dagger... can really pump out the spells

Palantir
11-08-2010, 21:09
Slann do one thing and they do it well. Two Slann... /shudder
I voted LM.

ewar
11-08-2010, 21:13
Slann. Nothing puts a smile on my face more than telling my opponent that he needs to take those 6s out of the casting roll... just after giving him a moment to gloat about IF Purple Sun :D

Turandil
11-08-2010, 21:17
As so many have said, the Lizardmen. The slann is just horrible, what with his super anti magic abilities and passing on miscasts.

Maoriboy007
11-08-2010, 21:29
1) LM. Slann are harder to kill than teclis.
2) HE. Teclis is a monster. He should cause terror imo and maybe get a stomp attack
3) Kairos
4) DE with dagger... can really pump out the spells

This list is pretty damned accurate, actually. Although a Teclis list will trump a LM one.

Lordsaradain
11-08-2010, 21:31
as long as we're not talking SCs, then Lizards. Slann > other wizards :)

I second this. Otherwise HE I guess, since they have teclis.

jamano
11-08-2010, 22:06
How did TK get on this list? and how did anyone vote for them?

Paraelix
11-08-2010, 23:36
Helves. All BRB Lores + their one. Book of Hoeth. Banner of Sorcery. Natural +1 to dispel. Access to 2 magic items making combat characters into wizards (radiant gem and Wizard's Hat).

Odominus
12-08-2010, 01:05
If SC are allowed: HE because of Teclis.

Otherwise...Slann.

Teclis is insane.

AlphariusOmegon20
12-08-2010, 01:12
VC are... in a way.

Their ability to spam both power dice and duplicate spells, including death spells (thus farming more power dice, working around the 12 pd limit)

I hate to tell you but ANY army that has a spell that gains more dice when cast can do this. The 12 PD cap only applies to 12 PD in YOUR POOL AT ONE TIME, not for the turn.

Daemons do it better than VC do, and I believe DE are considered the masters at it, thanks to PoD.

w3rm
12-08-2010, 01:14
Of course its an ogre army! With regeneration and +1 t or str its teh awesomezz.\sarcasm

High Elves tie with Lizzies

Axis
12-08-2010, 01:46
I voted lizards for the reasons everyone else gave. However, i think empire deserve a mention simply because their wizards are so cheap compared to everyone else but still just as dangerous. Also Balthasar Gelt is downright lethal against some armies...

Finally OnG magic is now good too because of low casting values and a much nicer miscast table.

SiNNiX
12-08-2010, 02:34
I put DOC just because I like the combining of Heralds and Horrors! :)

But Lizardmen are the best, unfortunately.

Rochr
12-08-2010, 02:47
Well... to answer this you need to define "most powerful" and what that actually means. Does it mean that the lore itself is the strongest? Amount of Power Dice? Special rules that lets you cheese yourself out of your mind? How resilient the wizards are? Many things factor into this I guess. The Chaos Sorcerer can take much more punishment than Teclis and so can a Slann.

IMO the best bang for the buck comes from a Supreme Sorceress with a dagger in a big block of [Insert something here].

Ymir
12-08-2010, 03:31
well, Tomb Kings has the most -unstoppable- magic phase now, bar none. The high priest alone puts out enough power dice to match the -maximal- possible amount of enemy dispel dice (before channeling), and he can't fail, and can take an item for 30 points to reroll -all- his power dice.

But as other's have pointed out, Tomb Kings magic isn't very powerful in terms of destructivness, buffs or debuffs, so to say they are the most magically powerful race would be to stretch it quite far. They do have a somewhat powerful ability to outmaneuver just about anyone, though, setting up flank or rear charges with their incantations. Such maneuvering was arguably more useful in the old edition, though, when their magic wasn't as unstoppable. Having Tomb Guard or Ushabti strike in two ranks twice a turn also seem rather evil, although I haven't had the opportunity to try that out yet.

But I too fear Slann the most.

Ramius4
12-08-2010, 04:10
well, Tomb Kings has the most -unstoppable- magic phase now, bar none. The high priest alone puts out enough power dice to match the -maximal- possible amount of enemy dispel dice (before channeling), and he can't fail, and can take an item for 30 points to reroll -all- his power dice.

This. TK magic is absolutely relentless with the FAQ. But since most of it doesn't directly hurt your army, it's not the one you fear as much.

Slann trump pretty much every other caster in the game.

Nicha11
12-08-2010, 08:09
I'm surprised Dark Elves didn't get more votes with Power of Darkness and 8pd Purple Suns, Dwellers ect.

Scythe
12-08-2010, 08:19
wow im really hurt that the vampire counts arnt there seeing they can take every single lore

Except that they can't. Forbidden Lore does not give access to the Life lore.

You know who do get access to all (base) lores though? Lizards, HEs, Daemons, and Empire.

StormCrow
12-08-2010, 08:24
Lizards easily, free power dice for every spell, plus skink priests being able to cast with loads of dice now and the lore of heavens became much better.

Sparowl
12-08-2010, 08:47
High Elves with Banner of Sorcery and Annularian (sp?) Crystal.

+d3 power dice, +1 dispel dice, an extra +1 to dispel attempts and -1 power dice to your opponent?

Vsurma
12-08-2010, 11:05
Lizards have the slann with +1pd per spell, this tends to mean they get 3-5 extra PD per turn.

That is the positive, they can also cancel out enemy 6s with becalming cognition, so they can have offence and defence in the same package.

The downside is they get 1 lore only for the slann and skinks can take only heavens which according to the poll in general discus ion, is only favored by about 5% of players (it came in last and I agree).

Vamps can get full lore, multiples of them AND they can also add extra PD with their vamp ability, if you want to spend 1000pts on magic you could have say 3 full lores and +6 Pd to cast them each round. Lizards can't do that! (though we can do 1 full lore with 3-5 extra PD for about 325pts which is far from the 1000pts the vamps might spend!)

HE is another contender with the banner of sorcery and being able to take any of 7! different lores, I think the ability to take extra lores is a big deal, also they can PICK their spells on 1 mage. Combining pit/purple sun with -d3 init is a big deal. Combining -d3 strength with dwellers.... you get the idea.

DE are another contender with their dagger of I kill the guy next to me adding dice, their magic spell adding dice, power familiar or something I think.

I think those 4 compete, it really depends on what the question means.
Lizards get the most bang for the buck so if we are taking points cost into account I would vote lizards, though I do think having only 1 lore is a huge downside.

With unlimited points I would give it to the vamps. (but unlimited points is kinda stupid)

DE and HE both do well but their mages are much easier to kill than a slann which is nigh indestructable in most cases. (apart from dwellers which kills everyone anyway)

Vsurma
12-08-2010, 11:05
Except that they can't. Forbidden Lore does not give access to the Life lore.

You know who do get access to all (base) lores though? Lizards, HEs, Daemons, and Empire.

I thought it was light they don't have access too?


This. TK magic is absolutely relentless with the FAQ. But since most of it doesn't directly hurt your army, it's not the one you fear as much.

Slann trump pretty much every other caster in the game.

If you want to go crazy with the magic phase you give your tomb king the wizards hat, then you get an EXTRA 2d6 PD.

So say high lich priest, 2 priests, 2 princes, king with hat.
6 automatically cast spells on 3d6, 3d6, 2d6, 2d6, d6, d6 AND THEN
2d6 dice to spend on your 2 spells.........DAN DAN DAAAAAA

But as was mentioned the movement spells are pretty much the main thing tomb king does with their magic so its not as great as you might think. Fun though.

Scythe
12-08-2010, 12:04
Vamps can get full lore, multiples of them AND they can also add extra PD with their vamp ability, if you want to spend 1000pts on magic you could have say 3 full lores and +6 Pd to cast them each round. Lizards can't do that! (though we can do 1 full lore with 3-5 extra PD for about 325pts which is far from the 1000pts the vamps might spend!)


Unless you are investing in 3 vampire lords with those abilities (which would indicate a 4000+ pts battle), it doesn't exactly work like that. Hero level vampires cannot get both forbidden lore (for all spells of a lore) and master of the black arts (for +2 power dice). As the dice of master of the black arts are bound to the vampire who bought it, that means they cannot be used to power those base rulebook lores. A lord can get both powers, but it should be noted that he won't be a lvl 4 caster that way, and will cost more than 400 pts, assuming you spend some pts on protective items as well.

edit:

I thought it was light they don't have access too?

Nope, they can take light, for some weird reason. Not a bad choice actually; WS10 skeletons and zombies are quite nice, though the crown does the same.

Harwammer
12-08-2010, 17:39
I hate to tell you but ANY army that has a spell that gains more dice when cast can do this. The 12 PD cap only applies to 12 PD in YOUR POOL AT ONE TIME, not for the turn.

Daemons do it better than VC do, and I believe DE are considered the masters at it, thanks to PoD.
Hmm I don't think I made my point very clearly. I was saying VC can work around the 12 powerdice limit by generating more dice using the lore of death signature ability (probably fed using purple sun). As you say this means they can generate far more than 12 dice a phase while never having more than 12 in pool at any particular point. That is what was meant by me. You're right that MoS daemons can pull the exact same trick.

Col. Tartleton
12-08-2010, 18:17
Dwarves are certainly the most powerful in the magic phase. Even without spending a ton on magic defense you'll have trouble doing anything big to them. If they build magic defense you won't even have the ability to use the phase.

Ramius4
12-08-2010, 18:25
I thought it was light they don't have access too?



If you want to go crazy with the magic phase you give your tomb king the wizards hat, then you get an EXTRA 2d6 PD.

That's not the way it works. You don't need the wizards hat to get your normal 2D6 power dice. They already do, just to use up on bound spells.

Jetty Smurf
12-08-2010, 18:40
The downside is they get 1 lore only for the slann and skinks can take only heavens which according to the poll in general discus ion, is only favored by about 5% of players (it came in last and I agree).

Lizards get the most bang for the buck so if we are taking points cost into account I would vote lizards, though I do think having only 1 lore is a huge downside.

Each slann you take gets the choice of any of the BRB lores. Only the skink priests are limited to heavens.


HE is another contender with the banner of sorcery and being able to take any of 7! different lores, I think the ability to take extra lores is a big deal, also they can PICK their spells on 1 mage.

Since there are 8 BRB lores, and HE have their own, I will assume you meant 9, not 7, here.

As for picking spells, slann get that ability for free (or 50 points, if you have other abilities). Except instead of picking the spells, they just get all of them instead.


I will say though, I can't decide 100% whether to vote HE or LM. If built for it, the HE are a powerful magic force to be reckoned with. However, the slann is innately powerful when it comes to magic, and can be built to excel even more-so in that regard.

My experience is limited though, as I have only played/played against LM, HE, Dwarves, Chaos Dwarves, TK, WE, and magic-less DE.

Ymir
13-08-2010, 02:45
That's not the way it works. You don't need the wizards hat to get your normal 2D6 power dice. They already do, just to use up on bound spells.

Yeah, but while that's surely very, very useful, there are only four bound spells available to the Tomb Kings, and none of them are really scary enough to draw dispel dice, nor cause much damage. Staff of Ravening and Banner of the Undying Legion are both good, and the Ruby Ring of Ruin is certainly useful, same goes with Enkhil's Canopi, but that's all there is.

with the Wizard's Hat, on the other hand, you might very well get something that can do a lot of damage.

bonertron
13-08-2010, 02:56
Warriors of Chaos. Pandaemonium on 6 dice = my magic phase is better than yours, because - you aint got one!!!"

Edit - Wait! HE can be sneaky sneaky too, and drop a couple of drain magics... again, have fun in your magic phase.

Murphys Avatar
13-08-2010, 03:09
DE with dagger and cheap castings along with the ring of hotek about for anti magic

Trains_Get_Robbed
13-08-2010, 03:24
HE can be as destructive as a Slann (without S.C and with S.C) Book of Hoeth, Silver Wand, Annulian Crystal, Vortex Shard, Seerstaff, Ring of Fury, +1 to dispell, having their own lore and being able to pick from any makes them quite interesting, and more potent than a Slann. . . . For one tricked out Slann you can get a BoH A.M and a tricked out LvL 2 Mage and BoS. Nuff said.

jamano
13-08-2010, 03:34
A slann doesnt need to be tricked out though, you could take 2 slaans with a free discipline and ~50 pts of items for only a little more than those wizards and banners, and the lvl 2 isnt going to be anywhere near as good as a slaan

Freman Bloodglaive
13-08-2010, 05:02
I want to take an Empire General, full plate, great weapon, barded warhorse, and give him the wizard hat. Okay in an Empire army it's pretty redundant because we get level 2 wizards, whose magic school we can pick, for the same cost as the hat, however it just screams crazy magic using general guy.

Asmodai48
13-08-2010, 08:49
Voted high elves since they can dominate every other armies magic defence. If you compare LM they cant break through a strong dwarf/empire armies DD.

Poseidal
13-08-2010, 10:01
Pandemonium can be dispelled in your turn with two dice on a level 4 at a high chance of dispelling.

Munin
13-08-2010, 12:28
I vote LM, we dont use SC.

Its possible to deck the Slann with so many goodies:
Ignore miscast AND pass it over.
Loremaster for greater flexibility in the magic phase.
More dices each magic phase.
Removes 6s for defence.

I guess they loose out some on good support magic with skinks only being able to choose heavens. But Im sure they have some decent items, both offense and defence, to put on em.

However I dont think High Elves are far behind:
Banner of Sorcery for more PD.
Book of Hoeth to pierce a good magic defensive army on big spells.
+1 to dispell
Annulian crystal to even out their opponents magic phase.
Banner of the World Dragon to create a magic immune mage bunker.

I think HE comes this high in vote thank to good magic defense to go with their offence.

As for TK, they dont make that great magic impact but they can sure cast a lot.

stuntyKing
13-08-2010, 14:04
Hey hold up, where are dwarfs on the list?

goodz
13-08-2010, 21:38
Surprised no Vampire counts on the list, they can be quite annoying the magic phase!

Notasquick
13-08-2010, 21:41
The most powerful magic Army in the game?

One that can:
- regularly cast irresistible force;
- avoid irresistible force effects;
- access uber unit killer spells;
- access character killer spells;
- access sniper spells;
- forces adverse enemy movement;
- enhances friendly movement;



Dwarves are certainly the most powerful in the magic phase.


No.

Dwarfs can build a good anti-magic phase but any spell cast with irresistible force always gets through. Thus making mute any extra dispel dice, dispel bonus, or automatic dispel.



Even without spending a ton on magic defense you'll have trouble doing anything big to them. If they build magic defense you won't even have the ability to use the phase.

Simply untrue.

In 8th edition, people are throwing many more dice at each spell and are therefore more likely to get irresistible force. Any player with careful list building can almost guarantee acquiring at least one of the uber unit/character killer spells. If they successful cast these spells with irresistible force, then they have a good chance to wipe out part of the Dwarfs magical defences.

As a result, Dwarf players are going to be avoiding placing their magical defence in a single model or unit. Typically that will mean dividing the risk over multiple models (Rune Smiths, Thanes with Warding, and Runic Standards with Sanctuary) distributed between various units, rather than depending on a single high value unit/model (Anvil of Doom, or Rune Smith/Lord with Spellbreaking/Spelleater).

BorderKing
13-08-2010, 23:47
I voted for WOC as I was seriously pwned against a Vilitch built army.

Axis
14-08-2010, 00:11
Vilitch is a pretty nasty wizard in 8th.

Gaargod
14-08-2010, 03:04
Depends.

Assuming SCs, Teclis + banner of sorcery is doing well to lead the HElves to victory. He doesn't really care about magic defense, just likes killing you.

However, if there is no/little magic defense, Slann are incredibly scary. I nuked Teclis' unit with dweller's below once and sniped him. Opponent immediately conceded end of turn 2. His argument that without a strong magic defense, a Life/Death Slann will be casting so many spells a turn, there's little you can do to stop him.



Pretty much due to Teclis - every competitive army i'm taking at the moment has someone carting along the feedback scroll. It takes a bit of timing, but you can seriously screw over players relying on crutches (not Slann though - W5 and 4++ means they don't care).

meneroth
14-08-2010, 13:43
what about orcs and goblins? i know they are the underdog, and probably not the MOST powerful, but they have a great magic defense and the spells are cheap and effective, especially re-rolling and ASF. finally, and maybe the most important is that they can get fairly expendable, cheap casters with thier goblins.

however, i did vote lizardmen. finally the slann is back on top where it belongs.

RanaldLoec
14-08-2010, 14:00
Yeah empire have got 4 votes.

But Lizardmen are the best magic army and so they should be.

Heimagoblin
15-08-2010, 12:03
I just played a game with my lizardmen against teclis high elves yesterday and, lets just say they won't be coming back to lustria in a hurry!

Teclis spent much of the game hiding from chamolean skinks (combat skinks, hurray!) and the slann threw out continues buffs to the sarus and healed my stegadons. Teclis threw out maybe 2 spells a turn if he's lucky, 1 usually if the spell is absolutley neccassary. The slann threw out 4 spells a turn. On turn 3 the slann cupped hands teclis doing a wound and then dwellers belowed him. Slann 1 teclis 0