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marakaelis
11-08-2010, 21:46
With Dogs of War gone, a lot of people are making sad faces that the fun with mixing and matching armies is gone.

But, we were given the Allies system in return (page 136). With a bit of imagination, this rule gives you the opportunity the create all kinds of 'Dogs of War' armies, or just forces that get together by sheer opportunism.


Imagine the possibilities:

An army using mostly Empire models (1500 of 3000 points) with added (Kingdom) Ogres (Goldfang) (500 points), Dwarfs (with crossbows and great weapons) (500 points) and High Elf Spears (representing Pikemen) (500 points). This means you are playing 4 armies by yourselves, which is coordinated by the Allies system. The end result sounds awefully close to Dogs of War, I think. Maybe even better then this.

Same could be done combining Goblins, Dwarfs (painted black) and Chaos, resulting in something Chaos Dwarfy (and probably not the most solid army ever).:skull:


The only real challenge would be to give make the Allied combined Army 'legal'. Legal as in it should always have at least 25% Core units (each individual little army), and it should have a (hero/lord) character as general. So, using mainly Core units with those added foreign units is a bit of a necessity, and it should always have enough points to include a (lesser) character in some way. These derived restrictions are good, in my view, as it makes you focus a more fundamented army, and will disallow the cream of the crop (elites, rares) sneaking in before you take the basis.


Anyways, my Questions are this:

1) Would you allow this in a friendly game (and why / why not?) ?

2) Would you want this to be allowed in a tournement (and why / why not) ?

SamVimes
11-08-2010, 21:54
Dogs of War are not gone. There has been nothing that negates their status as a legel, if unsupported, army.

As for what I'd allow, as long as each "army" is legal, I'd have no problems with it.

Probably not in a tournament as it could easily be abused to patch any holes in a book.

Gekiganger
11-08-2010, 21:56
1) Would you allow this in a friendly game (and why / why not?) ?

2) Would you want this to be allowed in a tournement (and why / why not) ?

1) If the player could justify it without it sounding like 'I just wanted to take this option because it covers something I wouldn't usually get', such as chaos having a bunch of war machines.

If it was a case of 'yo, I thought it would be cool if I added a small detachment of dwarves to my empire army' or 'my beastmen have some chaos warriors tagging along', then yeah, whatever - sounds cool. Same applies to scenario driven games such as a game being set in lustria with a small elven outpost being attacked and having some lizardmen cavalry etc arrive as reinforcements (symbolising the 'old one relics now under elven defence' theme).

2) Not really, it's too easy to abuse.

Proctorkorps
11-08-2010, 22:36
1) If the player could justify it without it sounding like 'I just wanted to take this option because it covers something I wouldn't usually get', such as chaos having a bunch of war machines.

If it was a case of 'yo, I thought it would be cool if I added a small detachment of dwarves to my empire army' or 'my beastmen have some chaos warriors tagging along', then yeah, whatever - sounds cool. Same applies to scenario driven games such as a game being set in lustria with a small elven outpost being attacked and having some lizardmen cavalry etc arrive as reinforcements (symbolising the 'old one relics now under elven defence' theme).

2) Not really, it's too easy to abuse.

dang, some people on this site just spew awesome ideas for scenarios like its nothing.. anyway, i pretty much agree with the above opinions

rodmillard
11-08-2010, 23:21
Dogs of war are not gone. Regiments of Renown are gone in the army book FAQs (for those that still had them), but DoW are still perfectly a perfectly valid army. AFAIK, the only difference now is that to include a RoR you must take it as part of a DoW allied contingent, complete with mandatory 25% core, paymaster, and general.

Of more interest to me is the fact that you can now, once again, field a mono-cult chaos army with a mix of warriors, daemons, and beastmen.

Paraelix
11-08-2010, 23:39
2) Not really, it's too easy to abuse.

It would come down entirely to the player and the list in both circumstances for me. Too many times have I heard players plan to use crossbows and cannons to fill out their WoC... Or hordes of chearper combat infantry to buff their elite armies...

Grimstonefire
11-08-2010, 23:40
I think I'd allow this in a tournie, as long as core cavalry and chariots were moved to special, no allied wizards were allowed and 1 war machine maximum.

Maybe a 25% cap as well on allied forces.

Chrisb3
11-08-2010, 23:47
I don't see why anyone would object, especially if it fits a theme.

It has advantages with different armies covering each other's weaknesses, but it also has disadvantages:
Some combos have penalties with things like leadership and spells (Order v Chaos, Skaven + Dark Elf allies).
Each army must be led by a hero/lord, have 3 units and 25% core. So your army will be biased towards heroes and core units because of points restrictions. One 2000pt army will be able to field more powerful units than two 1000pt armies.

I can see how blatant weakness covering with two opposed armies would annoy people, like Demons and High Elves :/

decker_cky
11-08-2010, 23:51
Yeah, the skaven/DE rules seem to limit the #1 abuse I see which is shooting in the low-shooting armies. Write up armylists, and it's tougher to make something really nasty than you thing (remember, both allies need to be legal armies with a character, 3 units, 25% core, and the max %'s otherwise).

Paraelix
12-08-2010, 00:02
Yeah, the skaven/DE rules seem to limit the #1 abuse I see which is shooting in the low-shooting armies. Write up armylists, and it's tougher to make something really nasty than you thing (remember, both allies need to be legal armies with a character, 3 units, 25% core, and the max %'s otherwise).

Except if Core is what you are after... Bretonians taking a massive wad of Dwarf Thunderers... Dark Elves taking a shield unit of Chaos Warriors... Daemons taking big blocks of steadfast Goblins...

sulla
12-08-2010, 01:26
Except if Core is what you are after... Bretonians taking a massive wad of Dwarf Thunderers... Dark Elves taking a shield unit of Chaos Warriors... Daemons taking big blocks of steadfast Goblins......They still need 3 units and a general minimum, at least. Generally, you can find much worse abuse within the current armybooks than by utilising allies (think 2 hellcannons/trebuchets or 3 cannons, 3 mortars, 2 hellstorms). Or a pegasus riding, purple sun toting ppowersroll reader. :)

Lazarian
12-08-2010, 04:43
That point right there lends to the fact the ally system isnt for serious competetive play, much less for anything other than a theme or narative game. If you have any inclination to powergame the ally system its really not hard at all.

Gorbad Ironclaw
12-08-2010, 06:40
...They still need 3 units and a general minimum, at least. Generally, you can find much worse abuse within the current armybooks than by utilising allies (think 2 hellcannons/trebuchets or 3 cannons, 3 mortars, 2 hellstorms).

Well you could do something like an Engineer, 20 Hand gunners and 2 Mortars for the price of 300 points (actually slightly less). That should be legal as far as I can see and it's a pretty good shooty section for a lot of people to add.

wizbix
12-08-2010, 08:25
For a tourny no. In a friendly maybe once or twice but not often. I think its silly to mix and match like this unless its for a scenario'd battle or as part of a bigger campaign. The army books are written in a way to emphasise each races preference for certain fighting styles. If you take waht you want from various armies your over stepping this fundamental aspect of choosing your main army; to me its like cheating. Now again in a campaign in may add extra fun and could be done to fit in with the fluff etc otherwise no, sorry.

peterburstrom
12-08-2010, 08:42
Dogs of war are not gone. Regiments of Renown are gone in the army book FAQs (for those that still had them), but DoW are still perfectly a perfectly valid army. AFAIK, the only difference now is that to include a RoR you must take it as part of a DoW allied contingent, complete with mandatory 25% core, paymaster, and general.

Of more interest to me is the fact that you can now, once again, field a mono-cult chaos army with a mix of warriors, daemons, and beastmen.

Well, that's one way of interpreting all the deletion of the Dogs of War references in all books. Another way of interpreting it is that the Dogs of War list in itself carries all rules for adding them to other armies, and it is not necessarily true that they always take up a rare choice. If I remember correctly, Ruglud's Armoured Orcs is a special choice in O&G armies, for example. Hence, the DOW references were outdated and unnecessary.

Bassik
12-08-2010, 08:55
If a Chaos player mixes Daemons, Beasts and Mortals, I will kiss him and thank him for showing up with such an awesome army.

Still Standing
12-08-2010, 10:51
I am thinking of taking a 650 point allied Dark Elf army with my Chaos, although I am not sure if people will see it as cheesy.

Lvl 2 Sorceress, Sacrificial Dagger (likely sitting in a unit of 60 Marauders)
3x 10 Repeater Crossbowmen, Full Command
Repeater Bolt Thrower

The way I see it, I am not taking the most powerful choices in the Chaos book anyway (Hell Cannons etc), and I do not have access to the powerful generic Magic Lores, so this will even the odds a little!

kyussinchains
12-08-2010, 10:52
If a Chaos player mixes Daemons, Beasts and Mortals, I will kiss him and thank him for showing up with such an awesome army.

I used to do that all the time.... I need a daemon character and a core unit or two to do it, but I could revive my old 4th edition army.....

rodmillard
12-08-2010, 13:36
I used to do that all the time.... I need a daemon character and a core unit or two to do it, but I could revive my old 4th edition army.....

Likewise - I have a monocult nurgle army that sat in my loft for the whole of 7th edition. I'll need to add a herald for my daemons, and some core warriors, but the Beasts are fine (just not enough of them to do an army on their own). Time to dig out those metal Pestigor, I think!

AlphariusOmegon20
12-08-2010, 15:50
Well, that's one way of interpreting all the deletion of the Dogs of War references in all books. Another way of interpreting it is that the Dogs of War list in itself carries all rules for adding them to other armies, and it is not necessarily true that they always take up a rare choice. If I remember correctly, Ruglud's Armoured Orcs is a special choice in O&G armies, for example. Hence, the DOW references were outdated and unnecessary.

I believe they are still a rare if you use the most recent reference for them, which would be the Storm of Chaos list.

I don't have my SoC book in front of me, so I could be wrong.

Gorbad Ironclaw
12-08-2010, 17:49
Lvl 2 Sorceress, Sacrificial Dagger (likely sitting in a unit of 60 Marauders)


Just be careful because she might not be allowed to stay in there for long, Dark Elves aren't widely trusted after all!

Still Standing
12-08-2010, 21:45
She would only be there to allow me to take use the Crossbowmen. The turn or two of spells she gets off would be a bonus.

sulla
13-08-2010, 06:41
She would only be there to allow me to take use the Crossbowmen. The turn or two of spells she gets off would be a bonus.If it gets too gamey, I would expect your opponent would just refuse to play against it. After all, the allies rules are pretty clearly there for multiplayer battles, not so you can add cannons to a vampire army etc. So you are basically asking your opponent to play a non standard battle.

peterburstrom
13-08-2010, 11:44
I believe they are still a rare if you use the most recent reference for them, which would be the Storm of Chaos list.

I don't have my SoC book in front of me, so I could be wrong.

That may be. However, my point still stands. the giants of Albion does not take up a rare choice, they take up two. Asarnil take up one rare and two hero slots if I'm not mistaken, and I think that many of the pikemen RoR take up special choices.