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Ethos
12-08-2010, 07:21
Banners are only captures when the Standard Bearer makes a Last Stand (s/he stays fighting whilst everyone else runs away, as per a failed Break Test) or is killed in combat.

Crumbling (an effect from losing combat; not a Break Test) is neither of these.


Are points gained by an opponent for Vampire banners that are lost via crumbling?

Yrrdead
12-08-2010, 08:11
Can't find anything in the FAQ's that disagree's with your statements Ethos.

So I'd say no points are gained for banners lost via crumbling but that seems rather unintentional and I doubt people will be playing like that. But would be fun against "that guy".

Caladin
12-08-2010, 16:35
A banner that crumbles due to combat resolution is captured. IMO the banner doesn't crumble, just the bearer. In any case I believe that crumbling counts as "killed in combat"

Bac5665
12-08-2010, 16:57
Um, crumble happens in combat. If you are killed by crumble, you are killed in combat. Its actually quite clear that they give up their banner points.

eagletsi1
12-08-2010, 18:19
If they didn't their banner that continues to kill enemies if you capture it would be totally useless and they would have mentioned that in the FAQ

Ramius4
12-08-2010, 18:25
Banners aren't 'captured' anymore as in 7th ed. If you lose them, you get points. Pure and simple.

eagletsi1
12-08-2010, 19:11
That's cool. I hadn't even realized that. You would think after 10 games it might come up.

Ethos
12-08-2010, 19:33
Crumbling happens after combat, not during a combat. Right?

Maoriboy007
12-08-2010, 20:04
Crumbling happens after combat, not during a combat. Right?

If the ENTIRE unit is crumble/destroyed, then you get the banner. If the champoin still remains the opponant can't claim the banner because you can still raise him back.
Just think of it as one of the few perks undead get after the 8th edition shafting.

Yrrdead
13-08-2010, 07:11
Just to throw some quotes out so to refresh people on what the rulebook says.

pg 143 Victory Conditions, Seized Standards

"You score....for every enemy standard bearer that was removed due to the Last Stand rule (see page 94), or was slain in close combat(remember this can only happen once the rest of his unit, except the champion, are dead)."

pg 78 Special Rules, Unstable

"Unstable units that lose a combat suffer one extra Wound for every point by which they lost the combat, with no saves of any kind permitted against these wounds."

Neither of these rules seem unclear to me.

Kampfpanzer
13-08-2010, 09:38
Just thought I'd mention, now that they have the "Unstable" rule, crumbling and unstable are not the same thing. Unstable happens during combat, but crumbling is after the general dies and each unit takes hits at the start of the players phase, in combat or not. So if the final troops of a unit die via crumbling (not unstable), that are removed not by last stand, nor close combat, just lack of vampire magic, does the banner still confer points to the opponent?

Haravikk
13-08-2010, 10:10
I would say the enemy gets the victory points as "slain in close combat" seems fairly clear; if a model crumbles while in close combat, then it is slain in close combat. These losses won't count towards combat resolution (as it's the wrong phase for that), but they're still close combat casualties as a unit is either in close combat or not when it suffers casualties.

Ethos
13-08-2010, 13:26
?

If the standard bearer was slain in close combat - as in, someone attacked the unit in close combat and I had to remove models as result of taking on wounds from those close combat attacks - but the champion wasn't, would I then not be able to get a standard bearer back when I raise the dead models back to life? Or perhaps I would get the banner back, having my opponent try again to take it from as if it were the first time, or maybe even repeatedly, getting several '25 point' bonuses for capturing my banner more than once?

And also, isn't close combat just the actual fighting that's going on? If a unit that is run down via a pursuit is considered to have died via close combat, then I would stand by the notion that the Unstable special rule would also take place in close combat.


... does "close combat" mean "close combat phase"?

Korraz
13-08-2010, 14:18
Another, similar question is: Do you get the VP if the Bearer dies due to another effect while in CC? Spells, for example. Or Miscasts.

apbevan
13-08-2010, 14:49
Just thought I'd mention, now that they have the "Unstable" rule, crumbling and unstable are not the same thing. Unstable happens during combat, but crumbling is after the general dies and each unit takes hits at the start of the players phase, in combat or not. So if the final troops of a unit die via crumbling (not unstable), that are removed not by last stand, nor close combat, just lack of vampire magic, does the banner still confer points to the opponent?The opponent would not get VP for the banner

Haravikk
13-08-2010, 23:02
... does "close combat" mean "close combat phase"?
Not strictly; a unit is either in close combat or it isn't. Whether it is or not isn't dependent upon the current phase, as otherwise magic attacks that stipulate that a target can't be in close combat wouldn't make any sense.

The fact that it says "slain while in combat" suggests that it simply means any casualties (from any source) while the unit is considered to be in close combat, would count as far as the Last Stand rule is concerned, otherwise it would be more along the lines of "slain by an enemy in combat" or similar.

Ethos
13-08-2010, 23:09
At the very least, if the standard bearer does not die in the close combat phase, then no VP are earned (so dieing because of magic or shooting I would say no points are earned).

Break tests, flee, and pursuit are a part of the Close Combat phase (page 46). However, page 143 says that VP for banners only occurs as result of the Last Stand rule (which doesn't apply to Vampire Counts) or "is slain in close combat". My interpretation of "is slain in close combat" refers to the unit taking wounds as result of the opponent's unit(s) attacking the Undead unit, and therefore causing wounds (and thus slaying the Standard Bearer).

Unstability is not the same as being slain by another attacker. Rather, if the Unstable unit loses combat, the "magic that binds them will fade away", causing wounds to the unit as a result.

---

I suppose it depends on what "slain" means.

Ethos
13-08-2010, 23:11
Thank you Haravikk.

But, as a reply - what happens when I Nehek a unit that has lost it's Banner? Can I regain it? Is it lost? Does the unit that takes it keep it while fighting?

Haravikk
13-08-2010, 23:18
But, as a reply - what happens when I Nehek a unit that has lost it's Banner? Can I regain it? Is it lost? Does the unit that takes it keep it while fighting?
Not sure, that would depend on the exact wording of Nehek I suppose, but chances are it's not going to be clear as the original wording probably didn't consider this new ruling.

I'd be inclined to say that you're supposed to just bring back the bearer (and not the standard as it's been captured), but I have nothing to back that up either way. That seems to the most sensible way but you might have to just ask your opponent or roll for it or something.

Lord Zarkov
14-08-2010, 11:14
I would just have the banner come back, victory points don't get awarded until the end of the game so there won't be any points until it's killed properly.
Since the unit with a destroyed banner can only ever consist of one model (the champion) + characters and will either still be in the same combat or have either wiped out or forced its opponents to flee this doen't seem too unfair.