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DeSnifter
12-08-2010, 19:27
Have you ever noticed when discussions about the next chaos codex come up, people say they want elite chaos marines that are 10,000 years old? They want better stats, better wargear, and better USR's. Yet when there is a discussion about how the traitor legions could still possibly be around, the SAME people suggest, "time flows differently in the warp, they have only been in the eye of terra for several hundered years!"

Basically, you have to pick one. Either they are 10,000 year old veterans with more experience than an entire company of loyalists, or they are just like any other several hundered year old veteran loyalist.

As much as it pains me (being a chaos player myself) I like the idea of time flowing differently in the eye. For example, I liked the short story in Hero's of the Space Marines where the black legion kill team comes out of the eye of terror and has absolutely no idea how long the've been in the eye or what year it is. The disorientation of not knowing when or where you've entered real space is very poignant. I think that makes for a very interesting background. While it doesn't make traitor marines as terrifying in terms of ancient experience, it does mean that the bitterness from the loss of the horus heresy is full and vivid still.

Let's be honest, heresy or no heresy, 10,000 years is a long time to hold a grudge. I think they would just become apathetic/self destructive by that point. (well moreso than they already are)

Think about it, how entertaining would it be to see some chaos marines come out on a raid whose 10,000 year stay was rougly equivalent to 3 hours in the eye of terror. "What the heck happened to this place....? Why are all these imperial fists the colors of an aribites flashing lights?"

Zweischneid
12-08-2010, 19:31
Well.

Since time flows differently, there could be 20.000 year old veterans too. Or 50.000.. 100.000 ... etc.. .

TeddyC
12-08-2010, 19:33
I dont think they should have any uber special 'veteran' rules like some people suggest but time in the eye may mean that they are kept alive by the gods for their own amusement for what maybe 100,000 years in eye but only a few thousand in 'normal' space... hence you have your argument.

But the very nature of the eye and what GW have made it means anything goes.

samiens
12-08-2010, 19:37
The canon is moving away from 10000 year old veterans- the excellent 'Soul Hunter' implies that they really have not been around that long- and frankly that book reignited my love of chaos marines...

DeSnifter
12-08-2010, 19:42
Yes, I intend to read that as I've hear very good things about it. I also had not considered the possibilty of time speeding up. A 100,000 year old veteran would be a fairly terrifying prospect. Then again, just because they've been around that long doesn't mean they've been fighting the entire time. I would imagine that a loyalist in real space consistently would see more action than a traitor on their respective planet.

mrln68
12-08-2010, 19:45
GW has said time does flow differently in the Warp - and since the Eye of Terror is a little bit of warp/real space overlap...it is perfectly acceptable to assume that they are not affected by age in the same way as marines (or others) outside of the Eye.

As far as the Vet skills go...if we were to just hazard to guess that in the Eye you age 1 year for every 200 (or some other number) - the old armies could be still around without much issue (dorks like Calgar are 300 some odd years old). That being the case - they are fighting amongst themselves almost the entire time. Also when they make a raid outside of the Eye - they return to normal aging (possibly...the long term exposure to the warp may have physiological changes). So they could say do a year long rampage through surrounding planets and then go back into the relative safety of the eye a couple hundred times and still have aged less than some of the SM heroes who are still considered to be in their prime. That being the case, it is easy for them to have a lot more combat experience than normal marines.

The two concepts are not exclusionary.

Garanaul the Black
12-08-2010, 20:10
This again? :eyebrows:


Well.

Since time flows differently, there could be 20.000 year old veterans too. Or 50.000.. 100.000 ... etc.. .


True and the exact opposite could be true as well. It's Chaos, anything and everything can conceivably happen, any and all of these posts could be the truth or none at all as it's most likely different from second to second.


While I play CSM and am in favor of ancient Marines carrying on the fight oblivious to the effects of time, I have to admit, 10,000 vets would be rare. On the other hand, barring recent renegades, 100 year old and younger Marines would probably be rare as well. It would probably average out to a middle ground between the two, with most CSMs being as old as a loyalist chapter's veterans with exceptions in either direction.

Blatant wish listing: A fun way to represent this on the field would be to implement a roll like The Red Thirst. Roll a D6 at the start of the game for each squad, on a '6' that squad is the real deal and gets to pick a Veteran Skill / USR.

My two cents,
G

Luisjoey
12-08-2010, 21:22
they get more experience but they get old too!

the chaos space marines are from the LEGIONS

some newbies arrise becoming renegade or worshiping chaos.

Born Again
13-08-2010, 07:59
Yup, it goes both ways. And lets face it, anyone that's been fighting in the Eye for 10k years is either going to be a daemon prince, spawn, or a Lord of truly badass proportions, not your average trooper. They're either newer recruits, or have been stuck in a time pocket where they Heresy only happened a few years ago.

MegaPope
13-08-2010, 09:55
For anyone who's read the two original RoC Sourcebooks (Slaves to Darkness, Lost and the Damned) it's all very well laid out...

1) Time does flow differently in the Eye, and the CSMs, being the favoured of the Gods, are preserved somewhat from its effects. However, I think people are missing the point somewhat - 10,000 years have passed OUTSIDE the Eye, not in it - so those CSMs perhaps aren't much different in practical terms from loyalist SMs (the warping effects of Chaos itself aside. But on the other hand, just about all of those original Marines WERE veterans when they went in there - veterans both of the Crusade and the Heresy Wars. If you read the background, even in retreat they didn't go quiet into that long night...

This is why I think Chosen status should be an upgrade, rather than a unit in its own right - Chosen should be your grizzled old veterans from the Heresy, and could potentially serve in any role.

2) It is established that CSM companies/warbands/whatever do indeed recruit - such is the nature of day-to-day life in the Eye that they would rapidly become extinct if they didn't. One of the events described in StoD is the inter-Legion infighting after their exile - the traitors warred amongst themselves for control of resources, equipment - and geneseed. During this time, the Sons of Horus were almost wiped out because they gave too many members over to Daemonic possession and took heavy casualties when trying to prevent the other traitors from cloning Horus (not to mention that at that point all the other Legions effectively blamed them for triggering the retreat that cost them victory!)

But anyway, the CSMs still recruit from the slave workers and prayer gangs on many worlds in the Eye - which provide perfect material for new CSMs in the same way that feral/martial societies in real space do for the Loyalists. The initiation is crude and brutal - the survival of aspirants is pretty much left to the whim of the Gods, so although the intake of potential CSMs is probably much larger than that for Loyalist forces, the survival rate is probably about the same.

In game terms, I'm very puzzled by the lack of CSM versions of Techmarines and Apothecaries - I can understand the lack of Chaplains, but these guys are going to be very important to the survival of a warband (and, being nasty selfish types, they're going to milk that status for all it's worth!)

Askari
13-08-2010, 15:51
Well.

Since time flows differently, there could be 20.000 year old veterans too. Or 50.000.. 100.000 ... etc.. .

It's not even that simple, they could have gone into the Eye a 1000 years old, then come out again only 300, then the next day a 1700 version and a 500 year old version at the same time.

barrangas
14-08-2010, 02:51
I know exactly how time works in the EoT. It works the way the writer at the time says it works :p. It's sort of like trying to argue whether the magical land of gum drops would have black jelly beans or not.


In game terms, I'm very puzzled by the lack of CSM versions of Techmarines and Apothecaries - I can understand the lack of Chaplains, but these guys are going to be very important to the survival of a warband (and, being nasty selfish types, they're going to milk that status for all it's worth!)

I think it's because they were trying to make CSM and SM more different then similar. They did have both, as well as Chaplains and WE Librarians in Slaves of Darkness and Lost and the Damned. As for reasons, it could be that they are to valuable to waste in battle. I suggested Chaos Apothecaries a little while ago that gave a close combat bonus rather then FNP. Rather then healing those that fail they take samples, slaves, and geneseeds.

38.
14-08-2010, 03:21
The arguement for great skills and veterans is valid.

First those from the heresy are warriors who fought with their primarchs. They don't have watered down geneseed, Some of that greatness should of rubbed off.

Second worshipping the chaos gods is supposed to grant power. They sell their souls for power, not for spiky bitz. Tzeentch Sorcerors should be immensly powerful for example. For them to be trumped by loyalist marines is a tradegy, (eldar should also be more powerful then space marine Libbys.)

To say they are the same is ridicously to me. 100 years or 10k years in the Eye, Heresy era Space marines should be superior to current day ones. That is meant to be their strength rather then huge support and resources (loyalists have) CSM are empowered by the gods, Living instruments of their wrath.

My 2 skulls.

DuskRaider
14-08-2010, 03:43
What he said. We do have to remember that the Heresy Vets ARE more pure, even with Chaos intervening. It's actually said that Night Lords geneseed is just about as mutation free as you can get. These guys fought alongside the Emperor and his sons against an untold amount of races... and wiped them out.

They THEN turned against the Emperor and fought their brothers, where a single Legion can equal 10+ Chapters. These guys have more skill than 99% of the Loyalists you'll run into, I don't care if it's been 10,000 years or 10 minutes in the Warp. Let's not forget, they invaded Terra. They fought the Custodes and everything else the Imperium had, and then fought one another. I'm sorry to you Loyalist players out there who think you need to have the best and most skilled warriors, but you really shouldn't.

Raven1
14-08-2010, 04:26
Well if time flows differently in the Warp and maybe 10,000 years is only a few years or 100,000 that gives credence to the idea that Chosen Chaos Space Marines should have more that their choice of weapons. They should be truly awesome. That and when they rise to the level of Lord and don't become spawn or a demon prince their level of awesome should continue to rise.

although the rank and file should be fairly comparable being either recent renegades or risen from the vast slave populations. however the elite should be truly terrifying not only being forged by war with real world, but also within the warp and earning the favor of the gods of chaos.

Brother captain Agrippa
25-08-2010, 20:13
i see alot of people mentioning heresy era CSM still fighting, and while I will agree that there probably still are some of them left, alot of them might be dead, they did still continue to fight the imperium and other sorts after the heresy, and as such they would take casualties and there are not infinite CSM who participated in the heresy.
and through 10,000 years of fighting, alot of casualties will be taken.
and for those that stayed in the eye of terror/the warp, why would they do that? and they would fight amongst themselves, inside the EoT and thats alot of casualties too

DeSnifter
26-08-2010, 01:58
Just mentioning as an aside. I am currently reading soul hunter, and it is stated that their time spent in the eye of terror has been roughly equivalent to 100 years for them. While 10,000 years have passed in real space. BTW soul hunter is an excellent book and I highly recommend it. It gives a great perspective on the night lords and the status of the legions in the years following the heresy.

Imperialis_Dominatus
26-08-2010, 11:12
In game terms, I'm very puzzled by the lack of CSM versions of Techmarines and Apothecaries - I can understand the lack of Chaplains, but these guys are going to be very important to the survival of a warband (and, being nasty selfish types, they're going to milk that status for all it's worth!)

I think Obliterators are supposed to be the middlemen between the Dark Mechanicum and the Legions. As far as Apothecaries... they've probably got them, but a) the Chaos list needs to be different and b) their work is difficult due to the nature of the Warp affecting geneseed from mutation and time in the Eye. Perhaps they are so engrossed in their work they don't often see the field of battle. Maybe it's a double-edged sword- their expertise is necessary and coveted but it's a thankless, difficult, and inglorious task.

Hmm, note to self.


I know exactly how time works in the EoT. It works the way the writer at the time says it works :p. It's sort of like trying to argue whether the magical land of gum drops would have black jelly beans or not.

Of course the black jelly beans would be there. You dare exclude the incredible deliciousness of licorice?

jsullivanlaw
26-08-2010, 19:30
Aren't marines functionally immortal anyways? I was under the impression that marines always die in battle and would live forever otherwise. So there could be 10 thousand year old loyalists as well. And as far as time flowing differently, it could also flow even slower than normal so a 10 thousand year old veteran has the experience of a 1 million year old veteran. And even if marines aren't immortal anyways the chaos ones probably are due to their chaosyness.

Born Again
27-08-2010, 07:35
Aren't marines functionally immortal anyways? I was under the impression that marines always die in battle and would live forever otherwise. So there could be 10 thousand year old loyalists as well. And as far as time flowing differently, it could also flow even slower than normal so a 10 thousand year old veteran has the experience of a 1 million year old veteran. And even if marines aren't immortal anyways the chaos ones probably are due to their chaosyness.

They're not functionally immortal, at least it's never been proven. They do live an exceedingly long time and one has never died of old age, they always fall in battle due to their lifestyle. If one was allowed to live a life of peace who knows how long they would kick on for. The Imperium has life preserving technology, but even that can't keep you alive "forever" (barring stasis fields and the Golden Throne).

Not sure on the canon of this, but in Bloodquest the librarian (his name eludes me) mentions that he "nears the end of his days", or something to that effect. Whether he means he is old or he has psychically foreseen his own death, I'm not sure.

Also not sure if this has been retconned or not, but at one time Dante was described as the oldest (loyalist) space marine, at 1,100 years old.

While some CSM's could be as old as you say, they're fighting pretty much constantly. It's unlikely one would survive 1 million years of near constant combat and not be A) a daemon prince B) a spawn, or C) a one-man Apocalypse formation.

Imperialis_Dominatus
27-08-2010, 11:09
Actually Brother Cloten of the Blood Angels was rumored to be Dante's Scout Sergeant in Angels of Death. He very well could be nearly 2,000 years old in that case.

And there are mentions in some of the Space Marine Codices of the past few editions mentioning that support staff are often Marines who are either too debilitated by injury or too old for active duty to fight. Ergo it's reasonable to assume that they work these positions till they die of old age.

Born Again
27-08-2010, 12:10
Actually Brother Cloten of the Blood Angels was rumored to be Dante's Scout Sergeant in Angels of Death. He very well could be nearly 2,000 years old in that case.

And there are mentions in some of the Space Marine Codices of the past few editions mentioning that support staff are often Marines who are either too debilitated by injury or too old for active duty to fight. Ergo it's reasonable to assume that they work these positions till they die of old age.

This was mentioned a couple of weeks ago in a thread here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270964&highlight=Cloten), where the person who mentioned him spelled the name Cleutin. Not sure if that's a mistake on their part as I don't own Angels of Death. If not I'd suggest it's a different character with a similar name.