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kaintxu
12-08-2010, 23:29
Ok i m playing a game right now with lizards vs chaos, and he fired and Chaos canon to my steggie, thing is 1 skink died and the stegie is down to 3 wounds, can i Heal him with regrowth, my opponent is saying i can only use it toresurrect ranked units, because it say resurect, but it also says after this, you heal wound.

It also states that you can not use it to heal characters and his mounts, but my steggie is not a mount for a character is a monster, so can i heal him his wounds with the spell regrowth?

Thanks

Turandil
12-08-2010, 23:36
You get to revive D3/D6+1 worth of models so you're not allowed to use it to heal wounds on your stegadon. I do suppose you can regrow the skink and heal the stegadon back up to 4 wounds with lifebloom.

Edit: Re-reading the rules I'm sort of unsure, it does say you revive rank and file models with multiple wounds. But seeing as the Lizardmen FAQ classes the Stegadon as a ridden monster and the fact that monsters aren't mentioned at all in the spell, I believe one isn't allowed to regrow wounds on monsters with this.

thrawn
13-08-2010, 00:14
can only revivie models, not wounds on character/monster. i would stay that's pretty clear.

PeG
13-08-2010, 07:14
but successfully casting lore of life allows you to heal one wound on a multiwound model which of course can be the steggie.

Balerion
13-08-2010, 07:54
I'm not sure you guys are correct (I understand your perspective, but it's quite an unclear rule, and worth looking into further).

First of all let's get a false distinction out of the way. Monsters are just as much models as infantry are models. So any ability that was exercised on a unit and affected models would work the same on infantry as on a monster (barring additional requirements/limitations/distinctions).

Now, with that put to rest, the interpretive trouble for Regrowth comes into the picture because of the line "The target unit instantly recovers D3+1 Wounds worth of models slain earlier in the battle" which seems to suggest that the only wounds which can be regrown are those which have been lost on dead models. It would seem that, by strict RaW, wounded-but-still-alive models would not be eligible targets for regrowth.

But this assumption is brought into question by another line of text in the spell; "in the case of multiple wound rank and file models, the first resurrected models must be fully healed before another can be resurrected, and so on". This line clearly implies that wounds are brought back one at a time, rather than only as whole models.

So I suppose by strict RaW you couldn't heal any wounds in a unit until a model has actually died. But the RaI seems to allow the spell to target wounded-but-still-alive, imo.

solkan
13-08-2010, 08:27
Alternately, that passage is there to prevent someone from rolling X wounds and attempting to bring back X dead multi-wound models each with one wound remaining. In other words, if you get to raise 3 wounds, you only get to bring back 1 Troll instead of 3.

Haravikk
13-08-2010, 10:26
Me any my regular opponent have allowed it's use on monsters as it seems silly that a spell can bring back dead models and not spring clean a still living one. A monster is a unit with one rank and one file in some ways.

However as pointed out the note about healing a character or their mount is kind of strange, so rules as written it's pretty unclear and likely that monsters cannot be healed.

apbevan
13-08-2010, 15:07
Me any my regular opponent have allowed it's use on monsters as it seems silly that a spell can bring back dead models and not spring clean a still living one. A monster is a unit with one rank and one file in some ways.This is a good point but skink riders are not rank and file, they are riding a mount. This being grey I would let them raise the skink as it feels in the spirit of spell but certainly not heal any wounds on the Steg except through lifebloom.


However as pointed out the note about healing a character or their mount is kind of strange, so rules as written it's pretty unclear and likely that monsters cannot be healed.This part is pretty clear as the purpose of the spell is to raise dead troops not heal wounds and they don't want you thinking you can raise a character that died while part of a unit so they are making things very clear by specifying RnF and no characters/mounts.

Balerion
13-08-2010, 17:19
This is a good point but skink riders are not rank and file, they are riding a mount. This being grey I would let them raise the skink as it feels in the spirit of spell but certainly not heal any wounds on the Steg except through lifebloom.

This part is pretty clear as the purpose of the spell is to raise dead troops not heal wounds and they don't want you thinking you can raise a character that died while part of a unit so they are making things very clear by specifying RnF and no characters/mounts.
"Rank-and-file troops" isn't an official categorization in the rules, though, and is therefore a useless phrase for determining who this spell applies to. As Haravikk pointed out, a monster is technically a unit with one incomplete rank and one incomplete file plus additional special rules.

The only reason Regrowth can't heal a character is because the spell text goes out of its way to disallow it.

In my opinion, the line about not being able to heal a character's mount implies that a normal monster would be eligible for healing; otherwise why throw in the additional restriction?

tmarichards
13-08-2010, 18:04
So, if there is a Skink Priest or Chief riding an Ancient Stegadon then it can't be Regrown, but if it has just the ordinary crew then it can?

A bit daft.

It specifically refers to bringing back models. The trait is specifically different, but the spell allows you to physically take models out of your dead pile and restore them to the table.

It also means you can't Regrow a Steam Tank.

Scalebug
13-08-2010, 18:10
+1 for the above... no regaining of wounds on models not slain...

apbevan
13-08-2010, 19:24
In my opinion, the line about not being able to heal a character's mount implies that a normal monster would be eligible for healing; otherwise why throw in the additional restriction?I disagree as a non monster mount can not be wounded or killed without the entire model dying so the restriction is to prevent you raising your dragon or hero back if one or the other were to die.

I agree that there is no official rule "RnF" and I too agreed with Haravikk's point I was just stating that I think the intent of RnF is to mean generic troops. Again I will say this is only my opinion of their intent of the non rule term RnF which is why I said its grey.

Balerion
13-08-2010, 19:41
So, if there is a Skink Priest or Chief riding an Ancient Stegadon then it can't be Regrown, but if it has just the ordinary crew then it can?

A bit daft.

It specifically refers to bringing back models. The trait is specifically different, but the spell allows you to physically take models out of your dead pile and restore them to the table.

It also means you can't Regrow a Steam Tank.

+1 for the above... no regaining of wounds on models not slain...
As you both read, I concluded the same thing about the RaW earlier in the thread.

Out of curiosity, though, I pose this question to you. How would you treat the regrowth of multi-wound models that have not yet been slain? Imagine a unit of 3 wound models that have taken 2 wounds on one of their members. Would you disallow the use of Regrowth until that model has lost its third wound, and is fully dead & removed?

What about if two of the models die and 4 wounds are subsequently restored? What happens directly after the spell, and then what is allowed in the following magic phase?

Loopstah
13-08-2010, 19:54
Out of curiosity, though, I pose this question to you. How would you treat the regrowth of multi-wound models that have not yet been slain? Imagine a unit of 3 wound models that have taken 2 wounds on one of their members. Would you disallow the use of Regrowth until that model has lost its third wound, and is fully dead & removed?

The first part tells you to resurrect the command models. There are no dead command models so you move on to the next part of the spell.

The next part tells you to restore wounds to any multi-wound R&F models up to their starting value so you restore the wounded model back to 3 wounds. "Then rank and file models with multiple wounds (including command figures) are healed to their starting value."

Then any wounds left over resurrect dead R&F models, there aren't any so the spell completes it's effects.


What about if two of the models die and 4 wounds are subsequently restored? What happens directly after the spell, and then what is allowed in the following magic phase?

In that case you would restore 4 wounds worth of models back to the unit which would be one model with 3 wounds and one model with one wound.

In the next phase you could cast Regrowth to try and restore the 2 missing wounds.

apbevan
13-08-2010, 20:27
In that case you would restore 4 wounds worth of models back to the unit which would be one model with 3 wounds and one model with one wound.

In the next phase you could cast Regrowth to try and restore the 2 missing wounds.I see the conundrum now. In the case of Ogres I would get 2 Ogres one with full health the second with only 1 wound.
Next time I cast it it tells me to raise new models so I might end up with multiple RnF ogres that have partial wounds.

Loopstah
13-08-2010, 20:50
I see the conundrum now. In the case of Ogres I would get 2 Ogres one with full health the second with only 1 wound.
Next time I cast it it tells me to raise new models so I might end up with multiple RnF ogres that have partial wounds.

You always heal multi-wound models before you raise new models so you will never end up with lots of partial wound ogres.

Balerion
13-08-2010, 22:03
The first part tells you to resurrect the command models. There are no dead command models so you move on to the next part of the spell.

The next part tells you to restore wounds to any multi-wound R&F models up to their starting value so you restore the wounded model back to 3 wounds. "Then rank and file models with multiple wounds (including command figures) are healed to their starting value."

Then any wounds left over resurrect dead R&F models, there aren't any so the spell completes it's effects.



In that case you would restore 4 wounds worth of models back to the unit which would be one model with 3 wounds and one model with one wound.

In the next phase you could cast Regrowth to try and restore the 2 missing wounds.
If this is the way you think it works then what prevents it from healing wounded monsters?


You always heal multi-wound models before you raise new models so you will never end up with lots of partial wound ogres.
That wasn't what I was getting at. I was interested in how they think the effect works when there are no "slain models" to ressurect (as in the case of a wounded ogre).

Loopstah
13-08-2010, 22:19
If this is the way you think it works then what prevents it from healing wounded monsters?


Nothing.

A monster can be a unit. (Pg 5)

A Stegadon and it's crew are Troop Type "Monster" (pg485), ergo a Stegadon and it's crew are a unit.

A Stegadon has multiple wounds.

Restoring wounds to multiple wound models in a unit is part of the spell.

So you would heal the Stegadon back to full health and then restore any dead skink crew as per the order of spell effects.

Haravikk
13-08-2010, 23:13
This part is pretty clear as the purpose of the spell is to raise dead troops not heal wounds and they don't want you thinking you can raise a character that died while part of a unit so they are making things very clear by specifying RnF and no characters/mounts.
Well yeah it definitely prevents the resurrection of a character and mount, as both are technically a unit of their own, joined to a parent unit, which is fine. And bringing back a mount for a rider that lost their mount certainly wouldn't make sense.

So in many regards it doesn't specifically apply to restrict regular monsters and their (non character) riders.

It's an odd one, as if the intention is to allow healing of anything but characters and mounts then they could have more easily explained it like:
"Heals or resurrects models in the target unit, excluding characters or character mounts, in the following order..." but instead there's a more complex (and confusing) description. It's a conundrum!