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Post
13-08-2010, 10:29
Ultramarines - the chapter which all space marines aspire to be, or are they?

In the 5e codex, it was said that Calgar tore M'kar the reborn 'limb from limb', but in Chapter's due it is revealed that he lied to his own chapter, instead he used a warp ritual, aided by a (radical?) inquisitor to imprison the daemon.

And the whole Behemoth invasion, Calgar fails to mention how he was owned by the Swarmlord, in fact the story from Marine POV is written as if he didn't leave his ship at all!

Also in Chapter's due, Honsou repeatedly owns the Ultras because they are too predictable, in fact it's mentioned no Chapter adheres as closely to the codex as them, cementing it as a significant weakness.

Other than that, it is shown that withing Ultramar, an Ultra captain outranks Imperial Governors (Who are appointed by Calgar), in fact a Sergeant is in charge of an entire world! It is simply impossible that this is in accordance with the whole separation of power aspect of the Codex Imperialis.... unless Gulliman specifically secured an exception for his Legion.

Also, Tellion, who is stated to so super uber that he is seconded to several chapters to train their scouts, is completely owned by a squad of Raven Guard veterans, proving that the Propaganda in the 5e 'dex is overblown.

And, the hints of internal politics and manuvering with the chapter is interesting, particularly the sparing between Sicarius and Agememan.

Finally, the battlecry 'Courage and Honor' seems to have been retconned to be the chapter motto, which used to be the fairly sinister 'Our Presence remakes the Past.'

Hunger
13-08-2010, 11:31
'Our Presence remakes the Past.'

Just like Winston Smith...

Lord_Crull
13-08-2010, 12:38
In the 5e codex, it was said that Calgar tore M'kar the reborn 'limb from limb', but in Chapter's due it is revealed that he lied to his own chapter, instead he used a warp ritual, aided by a (radical?) inquisitor to imprison the daemon.


That's Black Library is you want to take that over the codices. Regardless it's explained he did not have the ability to destroy the daemon and had to imprison it. If Calgar had the ability to kill the daemon at the time he would have done so.



And the whole Behemoth invasion, Calgar fails to mention how he was owned by the Swarmlord, in fact the story from Marine POV is written as if he didn't leave his ship at all! '

I don't recall Calgar saying anything about the battle at all. The Marine Codex's account of the battle was written in a third person point of view. All Codices present their side with a better view of a battle.

In fact the Cold Steel Ridge Battle was a fairly invention. It was first mentioned in the Apoc Rulebook and the Swarmlord himself was invented after the Space Marine Codex was written. The past accounts of the battle, both in the past Marine and Tyranid Codices contain no mention of the Swarmlord or Cold Steel Ridge.



Also in Chapter's due, Honsou repeatedly owns the Ultras because they are too predictable, in fact it's mentioned no Chapter adheres as closely to the codex as them, cementing it as a significant weakness.


No, not really. As you recall Honsou was ultimately defeated in the end by the Ultramarines.



Other than that, it is shown that withing Ultramar, an Ultra captain outranks Imperial Governors (Who are appointed by Calgar), in fact a Sergeant is in charge of an entire world! It is simply impossible that this is in accordance with the whole separation of power aspect of the Codex Imperialis.... unless Gulliman specifically secured an exception for his Legion.


:eyebrows: Ultramar is their homeworld. They rule them. It makes sense they can do that.



Also, Tellion, who is stated to so super uber that he is seconded to several chapters to train their scouts, is completely owned by a squad of Raven Guard veterans, proving that the Propaganda in the 5e 'dex is overblown.


How so? You can be a good scout and still get owned by a Raven Guard, who specialize in that sort of thing.



Finally, the battlecry 'Courage and Honor' seems to have been retconned to be the chapter motto, which used to be the fairly sinister 'Our Presence remakes the Past.'

Where is this? Courage and Honor has been the Ultramarine battle cry since Second Edition.

Sephiroth
13-08-2010, 12:45
Haven't read "Chapter's Due", but I'm going to go with Lord Crull here and say a lot of this sounds needlessly picky, like the Ultramarines are preening self-absorbed egotists.

That said, I don't like the sound of any of this. Even the Sicarius/Agemann thing. Its not required. To 'fix' the Ultramarines in my eyes, they simply need to return to the core of what Space Marines are, rather than simply focusing on the good parts.

jlmb_123
13-08-2010, 12:54
I'm not so sure that the Ultramarines actually do follow the Codex Astartes as madly as the general consensus seems to suggest. They have dedicated Tyranid hunting teams (Tyrannic War Veterans) the Honour Guard (which GW has never decided are either drawn from the command structure of the individual companies or a part of the 1st Company).

x-esiv-4c
13-08-2010, 13:03
A lot of people become crestfallen when they realize that the smurfs aren"t the poster boys GW makes them out to be.

Sephiroth
13-08-2010, 13:16
A lot of people become crestfallen when they realize that the smurfs aren"t the poster boys GW makes them out to be.

And some of us go in the complete opposite direction and are crestfallen they insist on toting a clearly "paragon" Chapter as an "average" Chapter. ;)

Does the average Space Marine Chapter control an small sector of worlds? Does the average Space Marine Chapter have a Fortress Monastery that was both built by and now houses the corpse of their Primarch? Does the average Space Marine Chapter have all 18 of their implants working?

No? Well then why are you using the Ultramarines as an example of one. :p

Lord Zarkov
13-08-2010, 13:25
Does the average Space Marine Chapter control an small sector of worlds? Does the average Space Marine Chapter have a Fortress Monastery that was both built by and now houses the corpse of their Primarch? Does the average Space Marine Chapter have all 18 of their implants working?

To be fair they are all things that the average SM chapter would ideally like to have - even if the first point is directly against the spirit of the Codex and Guilliman's separation of powers.

jlmb_123
13-08-2010, 16:57
That's another point where they seem to move away from what the Codex states.

The idea of a Space Marine Chapter being 1,000 strong is also seemingly non-existent in any Chapter structure - even Codex Chapters will have 8 companies of 10 squads, plus their the company's command personnel, along with the Chapter command in the form of the Chapter Master, the Chaplains, Librarians and Apothecaries, then the Dreadnoughts and the unknown number of Scouts, First Company Veterans and aspirants.

Lord_Crull
13-08-2010, 17:16
That's another point where they seem to move away from what the Codex states.

The idea of a Space Marine Chapter being 1,000 strong is also seemingly non-existent in any Chapter structure - even Codex Chapters will have 8 companies of 10 squads, plus their the company's command personnel, along with the Chapter command in the form of the Chapter Master, the Chaplains, Librarians and Apothecaries, then the Dreadnoughts and the unknown number of Scouts, First Company Veterans and aspirants.

Actually I always took that to be a thousand line brothers. The support staff was usually the headquarters or just support personel. Due to casulaties and fresh recruits having a chapter be exactly a thousand men is impossible. I think the Codex really meant a thousand line brothers and a few hundred support staff.

DapperAnarchist
13-08-2010, 17:40
Ultramar is their homeworld. They rule them. It makes sense they can do that.

Actually, it's their home sector - Macragge is the homeworld. I think that was Post's point - they are supposed to be a military force, and purely that, but instead have become an internal empire - compare to religious leaders having oversight and influence in a country with church-state separation, but times n, where n is a large number...

Basically, people are 'too shocked', as the Bright Young Things would say, to discover that in the Warhammer 40,000 universe the paragons are not all they claim to be - the Chapter may well be extremely good at what they do, but they are interestingly corrupt - not Chaos, or even megalomania in the Vandire style, but the corruption of someone who thinks they know the truth, absolutely, and that that allows them to do things they shouldn't.

major soma
13-08-2010, 17:44
Lets not forget the failed aspirants who fulfil other roles in the chapter. Not every person can accept the gene sequencing. Many of those serve as either armourers or trainers of aspirants. I agree the thousand number represents the battlebrothers rather than command staff or other personell.

Lord_Crull
13-08-2010, 17:45
Actually, it's their home sector - Macragge is the homeworld. I think that was Post's point - they are supposed to be a military force, and purely that, but instead have become an internal empire - compare to religious leaders having oversight and influence in a country with church-state separation, but times n, where n is a large number...


Again, it's their home. All Chapters rule their home. Many Ultramarines are recruited from all over Ultramar. It should not be suprising that an Ultramarine can take command of his home. I was referring to Post's disbelief that an Ultramarine overuled an Ultramarine appointed Governor on an Ultramarine world in a time of war. On Deliverance a Raven Guard Marine would be able to overule a civillian, or a Salamander on Nocturne, especially in times of war of invasion. (Like with Chapter's Due).

All Chapters are a purely military force outside their homeworlds. And Ultramar has been the Ultramarine homeworlds since before the Heresy. They have certainly not expanded the size of Ultramar since the Heresy and show no inclinations to do. the only Marine chapters that do not rule any kind of homeworld are the Fists and the Templars.

Wyrmwood
13-08-2010, 17:59
The Mortifactors do not either, if I recall correctly - they have some kind of orbital station above their primary recruitment world but there is nothing to suggest that they rule the world.

Lord_Crull
13-08-2010, 18:03
The Mortifactors do not either, if I recall correctly - they have some kind of orbital station above their primary recruitment world but there is nothing to suggest that they rule the world.

Correction, they don't have a homeworld any longer. Check the Tyranid Codex.

But I meant simply having a homeworld. For Imperial paperwork the Space Wolves rule Fenris for example, even if they don't ''rule'' rule directly.

Col. Tartleton
13-08-2010, 18:16
While there might be 1000 basic combatants the support structure is easily a million men or more. They're the Ultramarines.

Marines have tons of staff. A company would probably have an aircraft carrier worth of staff. I see each marine as being like a fighter plane. A highly skilled pilot, some very expensive hardware, and the dozens of guys it takes to make sure he's combat ready. He's probably got several dietitians and private chefs, doctors, a large number of armorers who specialize in individual parts of the armor, trainers, butlers, and assorted hanger ons. Not to mention vehicle mechanics, fabricators for damaged parts, and others.

I've always viewed the company Apothecary and Techmarine as the overseer of a large body of serfs. He's the only one who is allowed to handle the implants and the Techmarine has to consecrate certain things for the machine cult, but odds are there are a lot of guys doing the day to day work. Likewise the Chief Victualer is the quartermaster who sets the diets for the marines and as monks I think they live rather isolated lives when they aren't training, so they probably have their staff.

I can't see them being spartan to the point of doing things themselves. They're totally obsessed with warfare. I can't see them doing anything else.

massey
13-08-2010, 18:23
There are a lot of chapters that don't rule a homeworld. The Dark Angels and their successors don't. Still, it's certainly not unusual for a chapter to be in command of some recruitment world. To be honest, all the Ultramarine hate is getting a little old. Yeah, perhaps they're becoming more powerful than Guilleman had originally intended chapters to be, but here's the thing: governments will grow to fill a power vacuum. With the Ultramarines, you've got guys who are very skilled at organization stepping up and doing a good job in their local systems. When Sergeant Bob takes a look at your city traffic grid and says "you know, if you put in a stoplight here, and close this street, you'll eliminate most of the congestion you've been having", and he's right, people will want to put him in charge. I don't think it would be uncommon at all for older marines who are no longer on active duty to at least take "advisory" roles in local government.

spetswalshe
13-08-2010, 18:24
The Ultramarines might recruit from all over Ultramar, but that doesn't give them the right to rule. The Fists don't rule Necromunda. I don't think there is a single notable Chapter that rules more than one world - while the Ultramarines rule entire systems. I've always seen Ultramar as a sign of the Ultramarine 'Only we can be trusted with such power' philosophy; the Ultramarines are in a better position than any other force to secede from the Imperium, but it's tolerated because they never will.

Of course, personally when I think of the dark side of Ultramarines, I think pederasty.



I don't think it would be uncommon at all for older marines who are no longer on active duty to at least take "advisory" roles in local government.

I wasn't aware they had a retirement plan.

Lord_Crull
13-08-2010, 18:31
The Ultramarines might recruit from all over Ultramar, but that doesn't give them the right to rule. .

Why not? Ultramar's existed as a single unit since before the Great Crusade and they have ruled it long since the Heresy. The Ultramairnes have proven their value as rulers many, many times. Other Chapters can have it too if they wish. Guilliman never said anything about reducing homeworlds. He never took away Deliverance's forges or the Phalanx from the Fists.


The Fists don't rule Necromunda. .

And the Salamanders rule Nocturne, the Raven Guard rule Deliverance, etc, etc. The Fists don't rule worlds because their primarch established a tradition that they don't. But other chapters do.


I don't think there is a single notable Chapter that rules more than one world - while the Ultramarines rule entire systems.

It's really only eight planets actually. The rest of each system is a bunch of uninhabitble worlds.

But to answer your other question the White Consuls have stewardship over fifty systems. The Space Wolves are noted as having an enourmous influence over their sector, the Chapter Master entry in the Space Marine codex refers to some Chapter Masters ruling ''sub-sectors'' and the 5th edition rulebook notes that more and more Marines are taking over the ruling of planets.

RunepriestRidcully
13-08-2010, 20:20
I quite like the hints of factions forming in regards to Sicarius and Agememan, if they played it up in that the inter chapter politics were like that of Imperial rome, that would be nice,


Of course, personally when I think of the dark side of Ultramarines, I think pederasty.

This, I could see working not on it's own, but maybe as part of a non chaotic orgy/debauchery/ debasement sort of curroption, this and Pederasty would fit into the Roman theme, and could add to the tragedy of 40k, the Original legions being becoming shadows of their former glory, the ultramarines as the Pederarasty/orgy/debaucheries take hold in what was once an outstanding and noble legion (perhaps have a peice of Calgar's sadnness of what is becoming of the chapter, and his actions to try and stop it before he dies) the Blood Angels and how more and more are sucumbing to the curse and becoming blood crazed vampire berserkers, the salamanders being to small to be of much effect, perhaps bring back the hints of the SW geneseed bing unstable (the 2nd edition codex mentioned Ulric "halting" some kind of damge, perhaps bring that back?) or perhaps the chapter being worn down by the proximity to the Eye of Terra, The Dark Angels becoming so paranoid and insane as to be of no use, etc ect for each legion, the tragedy that even those loyal legions are now going through there own fall, perhaps not have it outright said, but more suggested with hints. I think each chapter needs a dark side, whilst they may be vastly improved/modified humans, they are still all too human, perhaps have the Ultramarines have a deep sense of guilt for not being at terra, sure Horus had sent across the galaxy, they would still blame themselves, and be desperate to redeem themselves. Ultimatly they need some kind of darkside, though the pederastry may be a bit overboard, (I still think Imperial Rome would be a good source for their darkside) everyone preferes intersting villians/anti heroes over boring plain heroes.

MvS
13-08-2010, 22:24
I can't see them being spartan to the point of doing things themselves. They're totally obsessed with warfare. I can't see them doing anything else.
I agree to a large extent, but perhaps with different emphases.

I don't see the Ultramarines (or any Astartes Chapter that's doing it's 'no self aggrandisment' bit) would have Bulters and personal chefs as such. That said i agree that there would be a thousand line brothers, but with the Techmarines, Reclusiam, Librarius and HQ as having additional troops - and a lot more than usually stated.

I see Honour Guards as belonging to the HQ and i see the Reclusiam, Forge and Librarius having many, many novices - the Forge and Reclusiam generally having more than the Librarius. This is because I there would be a high turn around and failure rate in these 'specialisations'.

I do see there as being many thousands of servants and serfs, and not just servitors either - although I'm sure there would be plenty of them as well, detailed for maintenance work and other 'grunt' jobs.

There would be pilots, crew and numerous experts (like Navigators and Astropaths) for the battlebarges and other naval assets. There would probably be any number of secretaries and 'managers' of sorts who deal with administrational matters - the identifying and replenishing of all manner of stocks and equipment, 'bricks and mortar', even catering. All of these jobs would distract the Marine from his purpose if he had to do them - and that purpose is training and fighting, fighting and training, all and only for the Chapter and the Emperor.

One thing I think remains true across Lotalist Chapters is the fact that marines live like monks. I don't mean simply in a spiritual or religious snese (although these tend to feature), but in the sense that they live relatively simply (they have singular cells, like monks, not luxury suites) and take responsibility for as much of their own armour and weaponry as possible. I think this would be a duty and discipline (vitally important with any soldier, let alone genetically engineered supermen soldiers) and because knowing their weaponry and armour is vital for extended campaigns where they may find themselves cut off from support or whatever.

Also, if Marines get a taste for the high-life, living off the efforts of others in comfort (with butlers and chefs etc), exerting themselves only to kill whomever they choose in battle, I think this risks setting a dangerous precedent that could lead to treachery against the Imperium, with Marines or even whole Chapters, going renegade. Why go back to living like a monks when you've tasted what it would be like to live like a wealthy person and to command weaker men to serve your every whim...?

Finally, although there may only be 100 fully operational Scouts, I'm sure there are many, many hundreds more trainee-Scouts, who aren't allowed to be operational yet, not to mention the hundreds of other aspirants who are being tested and trained by the Chapter to ascertain whether they even worthy (or hardy) enough to start the basic changes that ultimately lead to being an Astartes superman.

Lord Lorne Walkier
14-08-2010, 04:49
Not every chapter has a home wold. Some don't even have a fortress monestary. Many chapters are fleet based. Some use to have home worlds but lost them. The Scythes of the Emperor lost their home world to Kraken. The Mantis Warriors lost their home to a chapter they fought against in the Badab war. There have to be others who lost thirs to Orks, Tau, Necrons ect.

The Sons of Dorn are not against taking planets. The Crimson fists seem to be ok with it. I don't think it has anything to do with a chapters gene-seed. It has every thing to do with the reason why a chapter was founded and their history since. Some chapters don't bother with leading normal humans and other like the White Councils seem realy good at it.

As for the Smerfs, they to me just seem to have the best PR team in the Empire. They went form a chapter that took the colors of a discrased chapter to the cream of the crop. Any story from their perspetive will have them winning and doing it in style.

jlmb_123
14-08-2010, 11:50
As for the Smerfs, they to me just seem to have the best PR team in the Empire. They went form a chapter that took the colors of a discrased chapter to the cream of the crop. Any story from their perspetive will have them winning and doing it in style.

When were the Ultramarines ever disgraced?

Octavulg
14-08-2010, 16:51
Rogue Trader, IIRC.

Post
15-08-2010, 03:40
The Ultras have a Sector battlefleet and the standing armies of dozens of civilized worlds at their disposal. That is Far more than any other chapter, who homeworlds tend in feral planets that can't support a PDF. They have multiple Star forts and they provide a sizeable body of recruits to the Guard, the Ultras are therefore the most powerful chapter by a fair amount.

Lord_Crull
15-08-2010, 04:15
The Ultras have a Sector battlefleet .

No they don't, at most they have a Chapter fleet plus the system defense fleets of eight systems. That is hardly a Sector Battlefleet.


and the standing armies of dozens of civilized worlds at their disposal.

No they don't. The Ultramarines rule over eight worlds at the most.


They have multiple Star forts

There is only one Star Fort being recorded as being in the Ultramarines service and that is the Indomitable.

808thMyrmidons
15-08-2010, 04:38
I wasn't aware they had a retirement plan.

they do. it comes with a pine box.

Post
15-08-2010, 06:17
Ultramar consists of -
* Macragge
* Calth
* Espandor
* Iax
* Parmenio
* Prandium (destroyed)
* Talassar
* The Three Planets (Masali, Quintarn and Tarentus)
* Konor
* Circe
Which are only the major worlds, smaller defense outposts and minor colonies are also present.


Hmm, and their chapter fleet is the Sector Battlefleet, hence it being far larger than any other chapter fleet, A battlebarge is roughly equavalent to a Battlecruser, and the Ultramarines have seven - Aeternus, Emperor Incarnatus, Adsidus, Seditio Opprimere, Lord Laomedon, Octavius, Caesar, Severian, and ten strike cruisers, as well as dozens of rapid strike vessels, and dozens more defence monitors, The Ultramarines deployed more than three star forts against Behemoth, all were destroyed though.

Col. Tartleton
15-08-2010, 06:19
I agree to a large extent, but perhaps with different emphases.

I don't see the Ultramarines (or any Astartes Chapter that's doing it's 'no self aggrandisment' bit) would have Bulters and personal chefs as such. That said i agree that there would be a thousand line brothers, but with the Techmarines, Reclusiam, Librarius and HQ as having additional troops - and a lot more than usually stated.

I see Honour Guards as belonging to the HQ and i see the Reclusiam, Forge and Librarius having many, many novices - the Forge and Reclusiam generally having more than the Librarius. This is because I there would be a high turn around and failure rate in these 'specialisations'.

I do see there as being many thousands of servants and serfs, and not just servitors either - although I'm sure there would be plenty of them as well, detailed for maintenance work and other 'grunt' jobs.

There would be pilots, crew and numerous experts (like Navigators and Astropaths) for the battlebarges and other naval assets. There would probably be any number of secretaries and 'managers' of sorts who deal with administrational matters - the identifying and replenishing of all manner of stocks and equipment, 'bricks and mortar', even catering. All of these jobs would distract the Marine from his purpose if he had to do them - and that purpose is training and fighting, fighting and training, all and only for the Chapter and the Emperor.

One thing I think remains true across Lotalist Chapters is the fact that marines live like monks. I don't mean simply in a spiritual or religious snese (although these tend to feature), but in the sense that they live relatively simply (they have singular cells, like monks, not luxury suites) and take responsibility for as much of their own armour and weaponry as possible. I think this would be a duty and discipline (vitally important with any soldier, let alone genetically engineered supermen soldiers) and because knowing their weaponry and armour is vital for extended campaigns where they may find themselves cut off from support or whatever.

Also, if Marines get a taste for the high-life, living off the efforts of others in comfort (with butlers and chefs etc), exerting themselves only to kill whomever they choose in battle, I think this risks setting a dangerous precedent that could lead to treachery against the Imperium, with Marines or even whole Chapters, going renegade. Why go back to living like a monks when you've tasted what it would be like to live like a wealthy person and to command weaker men to serve your every whim...?

Finally, although there may only be 100 fully operational Scouts, I'm sure there are many, many hundreds more trainee-Scouts, who aren't allowed to be operational yet, not to mention the hundreds of other aspirants who are being tested and trained by the Chapter to ascertain whether they even worthy (or hardy) enough to start the basic changes that ultimately lead to being an Astartes superman.

I didn't mean as true servants. I look at the US Airforce. You have under 4000 planes with over 300,000 men in the organization (purely the regular airforce, not the guard or reserve.)

A Sergeant might command 10 marines but he's probably a colonel in the scheme of the real operation. There's probably close to a thousand men in a large number of disciplines supporting his squad. Thus a Captain might butt heads with Major Generals and a Chapter Master can talk down his nose to a Lord Marshal.

Thus marines are traditionally given free reign in doing things their way.

Col. Tartleton
15-08-2010, 06:34
I quite like the hints of factions forming in regards to Sicarius and Agememan, if they played it up in that the inter chapter politics were like that of Imperial rome, that would be nice,

This, I could see working not on it's own, but maybe as part of a non chaotic orgy/debauchery/ debasement sort of curroption, this and Pederasty would fit into the Roman theme, and could add to the tragedy of 40k, the Original legions being becoming shadows of their former glory, the ultramarines as the Pederarasty/orgy/debaucheries take hold in what was once an outstanding and noble legion (perhaps have a peice of Calgar's sadnness of what is becoming of the chapter, and his actions to try and stop it before he dies) the Blood Angels and how more and more are sucumbing to the curse and becoming blood crazed vampire berserkers, the salamanders being to small to be of much effect, perhaps bring back the hints of the SW geneseed bing unstable (the 2nd edition codex mentioned Ulric "halting" some kind of damge, perhaps bring that back?) or perhaps the chapter being worn down by the proximity to the Eye of Terra, The Dark Angels becoming so paranoid and insane as to be of no use, etc ect for each legion, the tragedy that even those loyal legions are now going through there own fall, perhaps not have it outright said, but more suggested with hints. I think each chapter needs a dark side, whilst they may be vastly improved/modified humans, they are still all too human, perhaps have the Ultramarines have a deep sense of guilt for not being at terra, sure Horus had sent across the galaxy, they would still blame themselves, and be desperate to redeem themselves. Ultimatly they need some kind of darkside, though the pederastry may be a bit overboard, (I still think Imperial Rome would be a good source for their darkside) everyone preferes intersting villians/anti heroes over boring plain heroes.

I don't think pederasty is particularly overboard (though its not really in tune with their theme, they're Hellenic Greeks, not Classical, the Luna Wolves are more Greco-Roman in that way.) I just think you're making it into something its not. Its not purely sexual. Its romantic. Its sort of an ideal bond comprising the elements of a Father and Son duty, brotherly camaraderie, and a romantic loyalty. The Theban Sacred Band was the most feared unit in Greece because they were all gay couples who fought side by side. This sort of thing would fit best in the first company. If not sexually, a sort of oath to fight and die to the last man and honor your battle brothers. Pederasty makes sense in marine culture. A commander must be the father of his men and they loyal to him and he to them. Squad mates must love each other as brothers and trust each other with their lives more then they trust themselves.

I think the element is already there. The Battle of the Polar fortress stinks of it. They fought to the death. That's Chaeronea.

Iracundus
15-08-2010, 06:46
Hmm, and their chapter fleet is the Sector Battlefleet, hence it being far larger than any other chapter fleet, A battlebarge is roughly equavalent to a Battlecruser, and the Ultramarines have seven - Aeternus, Emperor Incarnatus, Adsidus, Seditio Opprimere, Lord Laomedon, Octavius, Caesar, Severian, and ten strike cruisers, as well as dozens of rapid strike vessels, and dozens more defence monitors, The Ultramarines deployed more than three star forts against Behemoth, all were destroyed though.

Slight correction: Battle barges are equivalent to battleships, not just battlecruisers. However the exact number of current UM barges is unknown because during the battle with Behemoth, Caesar is explicitly stated to have been destroyed (5th edition Tyranid Codex). We also know that 4 strike cruisers received very heavy damage during the first phase of the fight with Behemoth (2nd edition Epic Hive War) and were in no condition to fight any more. Whether they survived the 2nd phase of the battle, or whether they subsequently were repaired or scuttled/abandoned is also unknown.

Post
15-08-2010, 07:39
Huh, Caesar was destroyed in Chapter's due by a Frigate. Other than that, the Ultras seem to have taken a very severe beating over the past few decades, though if you count Battle Barges equavalent to ships like the Emperor class than the UMs have more Battleships than Battlefleet Gothic!

Hmm, do the Battle Brothers deployed in the fleet count towards the 1000 limit? All space marine vessels have a few SMs in them, the sheer size of the UM fleet might make it nearly a 100 extra marines.

Iracundus
15-08-2010, 08:02
Huh, Caesar was destroyed in Chapter's due by a Frigate. Other than that, the Ultras seem to have taken a very severe beating over the past few decades, though if you count Battle Barges equavalent to ships like the Emperor class than the UMs have more Battleships than Battlefleet Gothic!

The exact number of battleships in the sector fleet Battlefleet Gothic is never explicitly given so it is difficult to make a precise comparison.

It would not far fetched for the UM to have replaced the Caesar destroyed by Behemoth and named it the same, only to then have it be destroyed.

If Chapter's Due is set recently, then I would think the UM would still not have replaced it yet. It is not as if the local shipyards have a replacements ready and waiting.

Col. Tartleton
15-08-2010, 08:17
Chapter's due is set well after Kraken. Ichar four happened before the first Ultramarine book. The book "Warriors of Ultramar" and takes place during Leviathan. Kryptmann was still loyal and respected. As of the present fluff he's an traitor leading a secret war against Leviathan but realistically is only hurting the Imperium.

Iracundus
15-08-2010, 10:41
Chapter's due is set well after Kraken. Ichar four happened before the first Ultramarine book. The book "Warriors of Ultramar" and takes place during Leviathan. Kryptmann was still loyal and respected. As of the present fluff he's an traitor leading a secret war against Leviathan but realistically is only hurting the Imperium.

In that case it is likely the UM have not replaced the Caesar if the loss was so recent.

I would disagree about Kryptman. He of all people seems to be the only one that has consistently delivered results against the Tyranids. The Inquisition balking at the cost of his bio-mass denial policy is in itself a contravention of their own motto of doing what is necessary regardless of the cost. It must be remembered that at the time, Leviathan was advancing unchecked and the 4th edition Tyranid Codex states Kryptman realized the combined might of the available Imperial fleet was not sufficient to stop it (p.21, 4th edition Tyranid Codex). His opinion is later borne out by the narrator's statement that the badly mauled Imperial fleets were given a chance to regroup and repair by his tactic of luring the Tyranids to the Orks. Even his Lictor hunting trip (ultimately secured by the naive Ultramarine Ventris) ultimately in resulted in the development of a limited toxin that killed a Norn Queen in one tendril fleet of Leviathan.

His bio-mass denial policy slowed Leviathan to a crawl when nothing else was working. Then his luring of the Tyranids bought the Imperium time. Given the short sighted nature of humanity in general, it is possible, even likely, that the Imperium will squander its bought time, and end up still paying the cost of fighting whichever side emerges from the Tyranid-Ork conflict.

I would go so far as to say that of the long term Inquisitor characters portrayed by GW over the years, he has been almost the archetypal Inquisitor. He does things that may seem despicable or callous but in hindsight he is shown to be right. He achieves the results when a more humane course of action would have failed and perhaps ultimately cost more lives.

abasio
15-08-2010, 12:56
The Ultras are therefore the most powerful chapter by a fair amount.

I think quite a few chapters (especially 1st founding ones) manage to be more powerful than the codex states they should be.

The Ultramarines with their mini empire control a lot more military might than just a regular Space Marine chapter.

The Dark Angels are too close to their successor chapters that the Unforgiven make a formidable legion.

The Space Wolves are always hazy about their numbers.

The Black Templars have far too many marines for a chapter.

and probably more to boot :shifty:

Lord_Crull
15-08-2010, 13:28
Ultramar consists of -
* Macragge
* Calth
* Espandor
* Iax
* Parmenio
* Prandium (destroyed)
* Talassar
* The Three Planets (Masali, Quintarn and Tarentus)
* Konor
* Circe
Which are only the major worlds, smaller defense outposts and minor colonies are also present.


Parmenio is an uninhabited training world, Konor is a Mechanicus research world and Circe is an uninhabited gas-giant. I have yet to see evidence of ''minor colonies''.

As I said before, the Ultramarines really only control eight planets, not eight systems.



Hmm, and their chapter fleet is the Sector Battlefleet, hence it being far larger than any other chapter fleet,

Again no, it's not.


Aeternus, Emperor Incarnatus, Adsidus, Seditio Opprimere, Lord Laomedon, Octavius, Caesar, Severian, .

Where are you getting this from? Last time I checked the Ultramarines had three battle barges, eight strike cruisers and twelve rapid strike vessels in 3rd edition.


though if you count Battle Barges equavalent to ships like the Emperor class than the UMs have more Battleships than Battlefleet Gothic!


Again no, even if the Ultramarines did have those ships we still don't know have many ships Battlefleet Gothic had.

Hellebore
15-08-2010, 14:36
The Imperium maintains control of star systems if they have planets within them. They may no inhabit other planets in the system, but they control the system. The idea that an imperial planet could have an ork neighbour in the same system isn't tenable at all.

BFG further goes into the control of systems even when the majority of them only contain one imperial colony planet.

THe Ultramarines definitely control the systems in the same way as any sector has control of the systems its planets are in. Whether there are outposts or whathaveyou on the other planets isn't really relevant. They control the space those planets exist in which is a lot more than most chapters.

Controlling space also controls space lanes and shipping taxes.

Hellebore

Post
15-08-2010, 14:55
Parmenio is an uninhabited training world, Konor is a Mechanicus research world and Circe is an uninhabited gas-giant. I have yet to see evidence of ''minor colonies''.

Where are you getting this from? Last time I checked the Ultramarines had three battle barges, eight strike cruisers and twelve rapid strike vessels in 3rd edition.


Again no, even if the Ultramarines did have those ships we still don't know have many ships Battlefleet Gothic had.

Not sure, but I rather thought Circe was a shipyard and Konor a forgeworld, if not why list them at all and not random ice planet #4?


Eh, their listed in a Battlefleet Gothic supplement, and the no. of Battleships Battlefleet Gothic was 4, Legatus Stygies, Divine Right, Bloodhawk and Cardinal Boras.

Iracundus
15-08-2010, 14:58
Eh, their listed in a Battlefleet Gothic supplement, and the no. of Battleships Battlefleet Gothic was 4, Legatus Stygies, Divine Right, Bloodhawk and Cardinal Boras.

The number of famous battleships of Battlefleet Gothic at the time of the Gothic War was 4. The BFG rulebook only mentions notable ships of that class that served in the Gothic War. That is a difference from actually stating there were only 4 battleships as part of the regular fleet in Battlefleet Gothic.

Marshal2Crusaders
15-08-2010, 14:59
The Templars have the largest fleet, in the background and practically. I think there have been something like 12 named Templar Battlebarges.....

rickie8437
15-08-2010, 15:38
please dont bring the space wolves into a smurf thread, we are far to great to be pulled down into the blue slumes

as for the smurfs books (great fan of the 4th company) and the dex, you have to look at it this way, matt ward wrote the dex, so this alone should tell you that the background is going to be full of lol and not go by what the main smurf writer is writing about.

i mean read the dex there is a number of things that are really funny,

land raider crusader... by what the codex says it was down to the smurfs saying how great it was that made the adept mach let it be used by the marines, not that fact that it was the templars that made it and it was in wide us by other chapters for 250 years be for they gave it the bug thumbs up.

there is probley more but not got dex at hand, i have just read the white dwarf with the marines in it, and the interview with matt ward, a very funny read, shows how much a fan boy he is, and in his own words the smurfs are the best, also show he made the transport size they way he did and not a miss print like some people think

and anyway if the templars wanted to lay the smack down on the blue boys im sure there massive fleet and the fact that they are the biggest chapter out there 6-8k strong would not find it that much of a problem.

Lord_Crull
15-08-2010, 17:38
Not sure, but I rather thought Circe was a shipyard and Konor a forgeworld, if not why list them at all and not random ice planet #4?


Don't ask me why GW does what they do. Gw has done stranger things in the past.



Eh, their listed in a Battlefleet Gothic supplement, and the no. of Battleships Battlefleet Gothic was 4, Legatus Stygies, Divine Right, Bloodhawk and Cardinal Boras.

Well the latest Codex lists only 3 battle barges as well. Look it up.



land raider crusader... by what the codex says it was down to the smurfs saying how great it was that made the adept mach let it be used by the marines, not that fact that it was the templars that made it and it was in wide us by other chapters for 250 years be for they gave it the bug thumbs up.


Actually no. The Codex mentions the Black Templars and mentions that many chapters had already been using it. Approval by the Mechanicus simply ensurced it's survivial.