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GenerationTerrorist
13-08-2010, 13:18
Hi guys. Just a quick discussion on how many Land Raiders people would feel comfortable facing in varying size games?

For example, I currently run 3 Redeemers (one with 7-man Terminator Squad and Terminator Captain, and 2 with 10-man Sternguard Squad and 5 man Vanguard Squad each) in a 3000pt list.

I got moaned at this week for being a cheddar monster for taking such a list - Even though my Crimson Fists allow Sternguard as Scoring units when Uncle Pedro is about, so I went for a few 10-man Squads of them and use the Land Raiders as flank protection (LOS-blockers) more than anything utterly nasty.

The player in question was an Imperial Guard player, who actually had well over twice the amount of tanks/artillery pieces that I did.

Do people really hate facing Land Raiders that much?

If it is any consolation, in sub-3000pt games, I rarely run more than 1 Raider (for my Terminators), and won't even bother with them in 1500pts and less because I'd take Razorbacks instead.

So. How many Raiders is considered evil?

This is the first time that I have ever had my Crimson Fists called too nasty, and I feel the shame of Rynn upon me.

Zweischneid
13-08-2010, 13:28
Well. 3000 pts. is basically Apocalypse already in anything but name. I wouldn't have a problem with 3 Landraiders, not in 2000 pts. either in fact.

There's some 4 Landraiders (w/ 5 Assault Marines each) in 1500 points Blood Angel lists, that are rather unsporting. But I feel they'd hurt the Blood Angel player as much as his opponent. Its a one-trick gamble that just bets on your opponent not having enough melta. It makes for boring games I'd assume.

Bunnahabhain
13-08-2010, 13:36
Given the price of Land raiders, there really isn't such a thing as an unsporting number, short of in 500 point games some numpty forgot to put combat patrol rules on...

I, unusually, agree with Zweischneid. Land Raider Spam lists are mainly just boring, rather than particularly hard.

Oh, and do remember the Guards player amour count is going to have quite a few chimeras in it. Quality is as relevant as quantity....

IronNerd
13-08-2010, 13:37
More or less agree with Zweischneid. 3 or 4 in a 1500 point game? Seriously dude?!? Beyond that, bring it on. I pack enough melta in most 2000 point lists, that if you're taking 3 Land Raiders, it will likely hurt you more than help you. 3 in a 3000 point game? That's nothing to complain about at all...

Ravenous
13-08-2010, 13:39
I dont know why someone would call cheese on that, thats 750pts on 3 targets that can die to 1 meltagun and they dont really do that much offensively against infantry.

People that call cheese are just dumb, the internet "powerbuilds" are one trick ponies that can be easily dealt with as long as you actually play this game with the intent to actually beat your opponent rather then hand out hugs like a malformed neckbearded carebear.

EDIT: And you were playing guard, who have vendettas, which are are extremely good at their point cost at killing landraiders, but let me guess, he doesnt have the money for forgeworld or the inclination to covert models.

IJW
13-08-2010, 13:40
Three LRs in a 3k force? No problem at all.

the1stpip
13-08-2010, 13:49
I run 2 in 1750, and that is considered to be not bad where I live, so 3 in 3000 is nothing.

He was just plain scared of them.

Thud
13-08-2010, 13:59
Well, three Land Raiders against IG at 3k points is pretty unfair. It's not like IG can spam melta to the point where it outnumbers every other weapon in the army or anything.

Tell your friend to concentrate on improving his game instead of whining. And if he's not that concerned about winning, then what the hell is he whining about?

Bunnahabhain
13-08-2010, 14:02
Well, three Land Raiders against IG at 3k points is pretty unfair. It's not like IG can spam melta to the point where it outnumbers every other weapon in the army or anything.

But but but what if you don't have the points left after having spammed S10 Ordnance and vendettas, so don't have the points for more than 10 meltas or so....

KingDeath
13-08-2010, 14:05
If you enjoy fielding Landraiders then field them.
Most armies ( with the notable exception of Daemonhunters and possibly orks )
have easy access to meltaweapons or something comparable.
If your opponents complain then tell them to stfu and stop being whiners.

Bunnahabhain
13-08-2010, 14:11
I think I just found the problem...


2 with 10-man Sternguard Squad and 5 man Vanguard Squad each


15 men, from 2 units, in one land Raider? CHEESE!

Putty
13-08-2010, 14:18
I for one wished everybody played triple land raider armies over here...

marv335
13-08-2010, 14:23
I think I just found the problem...



15 men, from 2 units, in one land Raider? CHEESE!

Not so much cheese, as cheating.

Erwos
13-08-2010, 14:49
There's a guy locally who regularly runs 3 LRs at 1750-2000. Haven't heard anyone complain.

Raxmei
13-08-2010, 14:58
I'd consider more than 5 in a normal game questionable.

LonelyPath
13-08-2010, 14:59
I commonly run with 2 or 3 LRs with my DW and GK armies even at 1500-1750 points. No one has ever complained since it means I have even fewer models in my already small model count armies and 3 Land Raiders aren't that difficult to isolate and concentrate on. I usually lose 2 before I really get into the heart of the enemy army and it balances up. I do tend to play against alot of high strength gun lines though.

wazatdingder
13-08-2010, 14:59
I don't mind 3 as long as you don't play Black Templars, using out dated rules to gain the advantage. As for the guard player, If he cannot handle 3 LRs at 3000 points... well... My mama always said...

fox-hound
13-08-2010, 15:04
I'm not sure if this has been brought up yet, but LandRaiders are more of a mental weapon if you ask me. I'm mean who's not afraid of AV14 on all sides? But there still not THAT good, espiecaly for the points. It's what inside of them(ie:Termies) that are the danger.

But anyway, I wouldn't have a problem with 3 raiders in 3k. That's totaly cool.

GrogDaTyrant
13-08-2010, 15:27
The cost associated with LRs, certainly does a lot to balance it to a degree... But as has been mentioned, not everyone can spam Meltas. And not everyone has access to good anti-tank weaponry. 1 Land Raider in 1850 or less isn't a problem to me. But 2 or more in anything 1850 or under will quickly make the game exceedingly boring and dull. Whether or not I actually win isn't the problem, but rather that my only option for killing LRs is to wail on them with a PK until they eventually stop working.

The LR's design principle is a AV 14 all around (which I've never agreed with), and this tends to devolve the game into 'I charge your immobolized Land Raider again, oh look... one glance and a pen... And it's stunned again and has another weapon destroyed...'

So I wouldn't call a 3 LR 2k list cheese. But rather it's a waste of my time for what's going to be a very unenjoyable and boring game.

Tamwulf
13-08-2010, 15:51
Four. Just don't whine when a Longfang Squad pops two a turn and leaves you walking across the board on turn two. :)

Zweischneid
13-08-2010, 16:02
Four. Just don't whine when a Longfang Squad pops two a turn and leaves you walking across the board on turn two. :)

Dude.. it's a Crimson Fist list.. with Pedro to boot. 1 Orbit bomb and those Long Fangs ain't no more. Then (!) you bring on those Raiders.

mrln68
13-08-2010, 16:20
In a 3K game, I consider it mostly a free for all. That size will pretty well allow you to nearly fill up every slot in the Force Organization Chart with full strength units and most the options. They should have similar cheese in there army...or they could if they wanted to.

If they get bent out of shape over that, toss out a 7 LR list from the DH. You can cover all the required slots and pick up all 7 of them for around 2K.

Bunnahabhain
13-08-2010, 16:38
In a 3K game, I consider it mostly a free for all. That size will pretty well allow you to nearly fill up every slot in the Force Organization Chart with full strength units and most the options. They should have similar cheese in there army...or they could if they wanted to.


Ahem...
To fill every slot in a Guard list, with sensible options and upgrades, you're looking at about 10K points or so. 3k is still only a basic starting force.

Probably the exception that proves the rule though.

Zweischneid
13-08-2010, 16:43
Ahem...
To fill every slot in a Guard list, with sensible options and upgrades, you're looking at about 10K points or so. 3k is still only a basic starting force.

Probably the exception that proves the rule though.

Probably.

I am not even sure the Tau Codex can make 3.000 points outside of a Farsight list. And if you can, likely only with buying any and all of the most outragous bling for everything.

Erwos
13-08-2010, 16:53
To fill every slot in a Guard list, with sensible options and upgrades, you're looking at about 10K points or so. 3k is still only a basic starting force.

Probably the exception that proves the rule though.
This is going to be highly dependent on "sensible" and the use of platoons and vehicle squads. A full IG FOC using mechmeltavets and minimal vehicle squads is about 3k points, maybe a little less. They just scale better.

Then again, once you hit 3k points, you're on the edge of apocalypse territory, where you stop using FOCs and start using strategic assets. :)

thewizard99
13-08-2010, 16:58
Then again, once you hit 3k points, you're on the edge of apocalypse territory, where you stop using FOCs and start using strategic assets. :)

Ive ran a 15k standard game with guard almost every troop choice was full with platoon stacked to the max. Was a bit OTT, massive board. took us about 2 days to finish it though, was worth it and very fun playing it, even had 2 people helping us as well.

stroller
13-08-2010, 17:26
For example, I currently run 3 Redeemers (one with 7-man Terminator Squad and Terminator Captain, and 2 with 10-man Sternguard Squad and 5 man Vanguard Squad each) in a 3000pt list.

If I recall correctly a transport can only carry one unit. Apart from that, dark lances... spam in a can. Bring them on... but to answer the question, in 3000 points, 5 would be verging on pushing it...VERY roughly, one per 1000 points doesnt seem unbalanced.

ReveredChaplainDrake
13-08-2010, 18:59
For example, I currently run 3 Redeemers (one with 7-man Terminator Squad and Terminator Captain, and 2 with 10-man Sternguard Squad and 5 man Vanguard Squad each) in a 3000pt list.

If I recall correctly a transport can only carry one unit.
I think he meant 7 Terminators + Captain in one, 10 Sternguard in the second, and five Vanguard in the third.

Practically speaking, even with Templars, more Land Raiders is less of a boon and more of its own kind of handicap because you become less able to handle Infantry. I actually play Templars, and at about 2250, I would never try to break 3 LRCs because then I'd just have no fire support. I've built joke lists with 4 LRCs, but those only have the Emp Champ as the one HQ, four Crusader Squads, and that's it.

Of course, if Templars are doing the increasingly more intelligent thing and slapping Blessed Hull on all their LRCs, even one LRC can be unbeatably broken.

GenerationTerrorist
13-08-2010, 22:09
Hi guys. Thanks for the responses.

The games I tend to play are usually quite enjoyable for both myself and my opponent - I find the flexibility of the Sternguard to be great (even if they are "just" regular old marines in terms of survivability!) and would happily run them in Rhino's if needed. The way I see it is that Fists are a small but very elite Marines force, hence the possible overload on specialist equipment and units - My Troops are 2 10-man Scout squads.

In my hurried lunchbreak typing, I made a gramatical error or two in my original post.

What said:
For example, I currently run 3 Redeemers (one with 7-man Terminator Squad and Terminator Captain, and 2 with 10-man Sternguard Squad and 5 man Vanguard Squad each) in a 3000pt list.

Should have correctly said:
For example, I currently run 3 Redeemers (one with 7-man Terminator Squad and Terminator Captain, and 2 with 10-man Sternguard Squad each) and a pair of 5 man Vanguard Squads in a 3000pt list.

Meaning, I have my Land Raiders, backed up by a pair of Deepstriking Vanguards.
Apologies for my original wording if it sounded like I was cheating!

Cheers,
GT

IcedAnimals
13-08-2010, 23:04
I take one and give it blessed armor with my black templars. A single land raider crusader with blessed armor makes me a beardy cheese monger when almost the entirety of the rest of my list is foot slogging. "No one takes blessed armour you are just saying you did because you saw my lance weapons"

I have a single land raider I want to make sure it does its job and there are multiple armies out there now with lances. Good thing I write it on my list.

I have run 3 land raiders at 2500 before. And was called cheese on that as well. So there is no magic number that is "considered evil" Just uneducated players who jump the gun in calling something OP.

impala
13-08-2010, 23:45
I play Eldar, so I always forget that AV14 doesn't mean AV12. I would fear a Land Raider in the 750-point games I am playing now, but would welcome them when we upgrade to 1000 points.

MajorWesJanson
13-08-2010, 23:58
Not a set number, but roughly 1 per 1000 points is a heavy LR list, and 1 per 1500 is average. So at 3000 points, 3 raiders is a heavy armour list, but still fair, 4 is becoming excessive (and bigger targets in 3000)

pringles978
14-08-2010, 00:08
i ran four raiders in a 1.5k daemonhunters list for a laugh against my mates, but it got dull pretty quickly.

i think 3 in 3k is fine, just sour grapes from your opponent.

just out of curiosity, whats the list for the maxed guard foc?

ctsteel
14-08-2010, 00:09
A more esoteric answer might be "one more than your opponent feels he can handle/destroy"

Vaktathi
14-08-2010, 00:09
I don't think 3 LR's in 3000pts is excessive in any way. 3 in 2k I wouldn't even see as excessive (more a weakness than anything else). Just about every newer army has lots of access to a variety of melta platforms that make LR's go bye-bye rather quickly.

MistaGav
14-08-2010, 00:19
I once used three crusaders and about 25 odd terminators in an apoc game, can't remember the points exactly but my opponents focused all their attention on that and well...not much survived at the end :(

Actually come to think of it I never have much luck with the strong armour.

thewizard99
14-08-2010, 00:56
Actually come to think of it I never have much luck with the strong armour.

Just Keep on rolling them 6's. Or buy many many melta weapons : D

Compel
14-08-2010, 02:04
One of the armies at our club is 3 land raiders in 1500 points (each with a plague marine squad, it caused major issues with the generally traditional English Gaming club eg the type that Jervis normally talks about).

So I'd say, 1.75 land raiders per 1500 points is completely acceptable in our traditional gaming environment, 2 being a heavy themed force, 3 becoming the subject of public humiliation - The typical method of enforcing army balance in the club.

Meriwether
14-08-2010, 02:46
As many as you want. Melta spam is so prevalent in today's 40K, it's not difficult to make LR's go poof -- and they're rather expensive!

danscan
14-08-2010, 02:56
1 per 1000 is fair. One guy at a tournament ran 3 in a marine list and if you did not know it was coming, was very hard to play. He won the tournament easily. I knew it was coming and had a Guard List that had melta-spam. Unfortunately I could not make the tournament. I saved the list for the next tournament. I was going to challenge him in the first round. I may not win but he hates to lose first round. But then he did not show up to that tournament. Arragh!

I hate playing certain lists that overload some type of heavy unit. Either Monstrous Creatures or A14 crap. Spamming infantry is not so cheesy because in general you can use your armies regular weapons not just you special/heavy weapons.

But true cheese would be 2 units of thunder hammer terminators with sanquire priests. In Land Raider varients and then a nice amount of regular infantry to fill the list out. Or a third LR with an assualt squad. Actually the BA dex is just full of cheese. Thats why I started building a list.

MistaGav
14-08-2010, 13:07
Just Keep on rolling them 6's. Or buy many many melta weapons : D

It's not destroying the enemys high armour that's the problem (though it is an inconveniance). What I mean is my luck is never good with my own land raiders and Terminators.
Usually my land raiders get stunned or shaken or even immobilised so they are rendered useless, then the weapons get knocked off and my terminators are left to die in droves...quite frustrating really.

thewizard99
14-08-2010, 13:44
It's not destroying the enemys high armour that's the problem (though it is an inconveniance). What I mean is my luck is never good with my own land raiders and Terminators.
Usually my land raiders get stunned or shaken or even immobilised so they are rendered useless, then the weapons get knocked off and my terminators are left to die in droves...quite frustrating really.

Drop the land raiders, deep strike the terminators when possible. they are more deadly in CC

Logarithm Udgaur
14-08-2010, 14:37
At the point level mentioned (3000), I do not see a problem with three (or even more) Landraiders. I might get a bit huffy if there were more than two in a 1500pnt game though.

DeviantApostle
15-08-2010, 10:12
An old Space Wolf player that was a friend of mine would field 3 at 1500pts: 2 normals and a Crusader. Basically, I gave up playing against him, ever, since I just couldn't kill the Land Raiders and the games against him were about as fun as stabbing my eyes out with a wooden spoon. The splinters, you know.

Sure, you could beat it by spamming lascannons but I'm not about to go out and spend that much money because of one guy.

pringles978
15-08-2010, 10:29
Sure, you could beat it by spamming lascannons but I'm not about to go out and spend that much money because of one guy.

i think this is why some people have so many problems with raiders. dont spam lascannons, just make sure you take a decent amount of melta (preff mobile) and a balanced army and you should come out on top. raider armies are fairly easily beaten (orks the excepton) when you stop shooting lascannons at them. 2d6+8 with +1 damage beats d6+9, you just hav to get close... but thats where the fun is...

DeviantApostle
15-08-2010, 12:30
I'm not going to spam melta for the same reason. You have to get the meltaguns from somewhere if you're not proxying and then what other army are you going to want to field them against?

Bunnahabhain
15-08-2010, 12:45
I'm not going to spam melta for the same reason. You have to get the meltaguns from somewhere if you're not proxying and then what other army are you going to want to field them against?

Other mech marines, Mech Orks, Guard, anyone spamming MCs....

pringles978
15-08-2010, 13:49
I'm not going to spam melta for the same reason. You have to get the meltaguns from somewhere if you're not proxying and then what other army are you going to want to field them against?

i didnt say spam melta, i said a ballanced army. and as bunnahabin stated, its not just raiders they are usefull against. mech is everywhere (and mc's) and more people are realising this. (apart from bols, footdar? wtf?)

the sooner people realise las/plas is so last edition and melta/flamer is the way forward in 5th the better.

Zeroth
15-08-2010, 14:03
Running three Land Raiders in my 1750 army and don't consider that particularly evil, rather wingclipped at times actually.

Thud
15-08-2010, 14:14
I'm not going to spam melta for the same reason. You have to get the meltaguns from somewhere if you're not proxying and then what other army are you going to want to field them against?

All of them...

As with everything else in life, in 40k you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want to have a good army, you need to put in the cash to get it. If you don't want to do that, you can't really complain about losing a lot.

Setesh
15-08-2010, 17:26
Feh, I wouldn't whinge about people taking too much of any unit. I'd have fun trying to defeat the army as per usual.

The only time I'd think it weird is if it was dramatically unfluffy like a soul drinkers army with a huge amount of land raiders.

Rinak
15-08-2010, 18:01
I play 2 in a thousand points. But that's for Grey Knights and we get bugger all else that's good. :(

Brettila
16-08-2010, 02:11
Complaining about raiders is always risky. A player has to devote a ton of points for not much potential return. 3 or 4 guns that have to sit still to fire, but can die to 1 shot before ever acting. While a heavy weapon unit can have 4-5 weapons, and barring terrible placement or luck, last beyond 1 shot. Experience has shown that those who kvetch have had trouble taking them down. But as others have stated, most armies will out-tank you easily if you run raiders.

DeviantApostle
16-08-2010, 03:25
All of them...

As with everything else in life, in 40k you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want to have a good army, you need to put in the cash to get it. If you don't want to do that, you can't really complain about losing a lot.

So you're saying victory goes to he who has the most cash?

Hey guys, let's not bother playing the game, let's just compare the depths of our wallets for the win, huh?

Ok, sure, spam melta, las, or whatever to kill transports and grab the win. Let's look beyond the Land Raider for a moment. What if those Land Raiders are all Crusaders carrying 8 Assault Marines with Th/SS? You're still screwed, no matter how much Melta you're carrying.

Melta spam is also horrid vs. MCs, particularly if those MCs have a ++ Save.

Let's also remember, not every army has meltaguns. Daemons, for example. "But wait!" i hear cry, "Daemons have MC's!"

Yeah, Daemons have MCs with 6" movement and overcosted wings. And hitting moving transports on 6s is hopeless (see 'the problem with Screamers'). Any army in 5th edition who's weakness is armour has a practically crippling problem that needs severe overcompensations on the other sides to make up for it... that doesn't happen.

What if you happen to want an Ulthwe theme army and all you can do is 'spam' bright lances? Or you happen to be like me and love 1KSons who can't field any Melta?

And let's not forget the biggest problem that by these rules, every army slowly gets churned out the same as everyone else's. Heck, GW might as well not print codexes at all! Let them print full army lists for us, that way there's no need for variety, imagination or, indeed, to think at all for any reason whatsoever!

Meriwether
16-08-2010, 04:46
So you're saying victory goes to he who has the most cash?

So you're implying that what models you own doesn't determine what you can field, and what you can field doesn't determine what/how you can play?

The Marshel
16-08-2010, 06:07
So you're saying victory goes to he who has the most cash?

He is saying that if you are not willing to invest in units that will improve your performance against a unit, then stop complaining about. 40k is expensive, but if you can afford to build an army in the first place then you can afford to improve it here and there.


Ok, sure, spam melta, las, or whatever to kill transports and grab the win. Let's look beyond the Land Raider for a moment. What if those Land Raiders are all Crusaders carrying 8 Assault Marines with Th/SS? You're still screwed, no matter how much Melta you're carrying.

So you are implying that TH/SS terminators are unbeatable? seems a bold claim to me really. What army do you play? I'd imagine guard seeing as they have an easier time spamming lascannons then they do meltguns $ wise. SS may have super haxy 3++ saves, but there is no reason to bring them into play. firing your high ap weapons on TH/SS termies is a waste, try shooting your small arms at them. have a blob platoon first rank fire second rank fire them. 75 odd shots, 37.5 or so hits, 18.75 odd wounds, roughly 3 failed saves. add in you're grenade luanchers/autocannons/lascannons/what ever and you can expect to at least halve the squad in size, if not more. Keep in mind those terminators have only 1 wound and are one unlucky roll away from death. knock em out their raider and keep forcing them to roll saves till they are gone. the most important part though is knocking them out of their raider, and your best bet here is melta, especially if facing multiple raiders.


Melta spam is also horrid vs. MCs, particularly if those MCs have a ++ Save.

guard tend to take their meltas in vet squads, so will be fireing 3 meltas at once. you can expect at least a wound from this, as few MC have better then a 4++, at most you're likely to see only one on the board. If you have one squad of melta vets you'll have a second, if not a third and a 4th. gang up on the MC and add in the chimera's firepower. supporting fire from long range weaponry either dents the MC for the Meltas to finish, or finish the MC after the meltas have wounded them. You may notice this synergy based use of long range at and melta to be pretty damn useful in more then just MC related situations.


Let's also remember, not every army has meltaguns. Daemons, for example. "But wait!" i hear cry, "Daemons have MC's!"

Yeah, Daemons have MCs with 6" movement and overcosted wings. And hitting moving transports on 6s is hopeless (see 'the problem with Screamers'). Any army in 5th edition who's weakness is armour has a practically crippling problem that needs severe overcompensations on the other sides to make up for it... that doesn't happen.

Guard have melta, marines have melta, tau have melta AND Railguns, Eldar have melta =I= have melta. of the armies without melta, the necrons, who had gauss, but like many of the other aspects of their codex, need fixing. Dark eldar, who spam Brightlances like there is no tomorrow and care little about land raiders, tyranids, who have MCs, Zoanthropes and hive guard who can deal with lighter tanks, allowing their heavier AT creatures to focus on heavier tanks. Orks certainly don't like raiders with their lack of AT, but then they dont have a great deal to fear from assault terminators with TH/SS as with 60 odd S4 attacks before the termis strike, they can do some serious damage before hand through forcing saves. Finally, yes, deamons dont have melta, but they do have MC, some very tough MC with some very nice ++ saves. they are also very unconventional deployment wise and can simply avoid the raider via deep strike. they also have access to things like deamon princes and sould grinders, who can certainly deal with a raider.


What if you happen to want an Ulthwe theme army and all you can do is 'spam' bright lances? Or you happen to be like me and love 1KSons who can't field any Melta?

break theme or stop whining. no-one is forcing you to not take firedragons, or take only 1ksons. It is your choice to ignore these units. Not every build can be viable. In a perfect world 1000 points of any units from army a will be perfectly balanced with 1000 points from army b. But 40k simply has to much variety for this to every be true. So if you'd choose to ignore the best AT weapons you have access to for the sake of fluff, that is not your opponents problem, that is not the game designers problem. that is the consequence of your choice. If beating these dual land raider list is that important to you, break theme. if theme is that important to you, stop whining about your inability to kill land raiders.


And let's not forget the biggest problem that by these rules, every army slowly gets churned out the same as everyone else's. Heck, GW might as well not print codexes at all! Let them print full army lists for us, that way there's no need for variety, imagination or, indeed, to think at all for any reason whatsoever!

this is not gw problem. it is the players choice how they play the game. if you don't like it stop playing these people. no one is forcing you to. the background stuff is provided for those who prefer fluffy armies, while the powerful units are provided for people who prefer super competitive tourney play. Again, if you choose not to field super competitive armies, thats fine, really, good for you, but when you lose regularly to people who focus significantly more on gaming then you, don't act surprised, or cry cheese. These people are playing on a different level to you. match that level or stop complaining about it.

On the topic at hand, in a friendly environment 2 raiders can be a bit of a handful. in competitive games however i wouldn't be leaving home if i couldn't deal with two raiders. At 2000 points or less 2 is probably as far as you can take it without being a pain to your opponent, but beyond that fair game. taking more then 3 raiders at below 2500 points will hurt you in other areas. about 2500 points most any opponent should be able to deal with it, so no real issues.

4 raiders may seem a bit off putting at first but you still have to put something threatening in them. elite units cost a lot of points too so you'd expect an army based on 4 raiders to be pretty much just the four raiders and two troops.

to get the maximum 5 raiders, you need both a unit of assault termies and regular termies, bot at a min of 200 points. you're looking at 1650 points, before your troops, before your hq, and before you put anything good in those raiders. at their cheapest, troops and the hq will add a further 250 points, and these wont be all that effective additions. Viably running 5 raiders would require so many points that you may as well just play apoc

mrln68
16-08-2010, 06:45
to get the maximum 5 raiders, you need both a unit of assault termies and regular termies, bot at a min of 200 points. you're looking at 1650 points, before your troops, before your hq, and before you put anything good in those raiders. at their cheapest, troops and the hq will add a further 250 points, and these wont be all that effective additions. Viably running 5 raiders would require so many points that you may as well just play apoc

DH

HQ 1 - Inq Lord w/ Retinue in Land Raider - min 300
HQ 2 - GK Hero - 61

Elite 1 through 3 - Inq w/ Retinue in Land Raider - 275 each

Troops 1 and 2 - IST - 50 each

HS 1 through 3 - GKLR - 250 each

7 Land Raiders for 2036 pts. Not much of a list - but if someone fears the LR...that is a whole lotta raiders.

The Marshel
16-08-2010, 06:59
silly me, forgetting that blood angles can do more then 5 and not releasing the grey knights can do so many at all. but still, you pack a whole lot of raider and not a lot of punch. i wouldn't really fear an army like that, and i can't imagine many others being particularly intimidated either. would certainly stretch anyones At though

mrln68
16-08-2010, 07:15
Yah - I don't play 7 Raider in normal games - though there are a couple of MC Daemon lists that they come handy with (2 mystics per Inq and better troops for 2500 point games). The raider variants also come in handy dealing with infantry mobs... I haven't looked that closely at the BA Codex yet though, so I don't know what they can field per cost. I knew they had more available to them, but the DH have the most Land Raiders available for the lowest cost.

Still, anytime that you are taking a lot of really expensive units (Land raiders, big Daemons, big 'nids and to a lesser extent guard tanks) you are thin in other areas. Building lists is a balancing act, and although it does make people look three times when you are placing 7 Land Raiders on the table - they normally are not worth it for most situations (but the looks alone are almost worth the loss/draw you will force).

DeviantApostle
16-08-2010, 09:13
So you're implying that what models you own doesn't determine what you can field, and what you can field doesn't determine what/how you can play?

No, I'm saying not everyone can afford to buy a ton of Black Templar/whatever kits in order to defeat that one guy with more disposable income than brain cells.

slayerofmen
16-08-2010, 09:50
Well i run/ran a pure DW force and almost by necessity i was running three raiders at 1750pts, the sweet spot was 1 normal and 2 crusaders+ scoring terminators= AV14 objective holders.

however sometimes they are about as much use/ as practical as a cup holder on a parachute

DeviantApostle
16-08-2010, 10:46
So you are implying that TH/SS terminators are unbeatable? etc.


No, I'm saying you can't take Land Raiders alone, it's not just the LRs in the list, it's the supporting units that they protect as well. What happens to the precious melta units that you've paid so much for in points are in 6" of a Land Raider next turn after what's inside pops out? TH/SS is just one unit that makes LRs the Pinatas of Death, if you want replace with Death Company or Khorne Berserkers or any other number of units you probably won't be able to crunch with the rest of your army.



as few MC have better then a 4++, at most you're likely to see only one on the board. etc


Don't underestimate the 4++ save.



Guard have melta, etc


Yeah, thanks for the overview, I know all of that. Guard, Eldar and DE have enough problems, however, killing Marines and surviving mere boltgun fire to worry about killing 3 Land Raiders. Oh, and Bright/Dark Lances get spammed because they suck at killing anything with an AV compared to melta. Tau are generally ok, sure, but they don't really have themed lists to worry about. Sure, 'nids got a huge boost with Zoanthropes which are awesome but walking MCs are horrible at killing tanks, period. If it's not 6's to hit, it's being S6. You need 8's on 2d6 to pen with a S6 MC! How anyone can argue that's remotely good is a mystery to me.

Oh, and let us not forget the humble Smoke Launcher. Not only are you missing a certain % of shots with your melta spam, not even wounding with more, and not even doing anything meaningful with even more, they just ignore everything that hit half the time in the turn that counts.

Money well spent... not.



Finally, yes, deamons dont have melta, but they do have MC, some very tough MC with some very nice ++ saves. they are also very unconventional deployment wise and can simply avoid the raider via deep strike. they also have access to things like deamon princes and sould grinders, who can certainly deal with a raider.


Ah, Daemons, one of my armies that I can really comment on. Let me disabuse you of a notion here after several years playing them: the deep striking sucks. You also can't avoid a Land Raider, since it's a mobile platform who's main job is to move 12" and unleash a blob of death at your toughest unit and the vast majority of units you field only move 6", so forget about getting away. Not that you can all the time, since this is an objective based game.

Here's how DP/SG vs. LR goes down, dude. MC charges, needs 6s to hit, misses everything, dies to counter charge from units inside (or sometimes just from return fire by the LR). Ok, let's say you get lucky and you hit with a DP... oh, look, you're S5 (or a whopping 6 if you paid for the S upgrade). Sure, if a Soul Grinder survives, you'ge got a shot... they die like flies, however. Also assuming it actually arrives in time to matter and doesn't scatter into terrain or an enemy unit... the turn before you actually need to charge since Deep Strike prevents that sort of thing, which is the problem with Daemonic Assault, chances are you'll never have the right unit at the right time to make the difference, and if you do it's luck not skill that got you there.



break theme or stop whining. no-one is forcing you to not take firedragons, or take only 1ksons. It is your choice to ignore these units. Not every build can be viable. In a perfect world 1000 points of any units from army a will be perfectly balanced with 1000 points from army b. But 40k simply has to much variety for this to every be true. So if you'd choose to ignore the best AT weapons you have access to for the sake of fluff, that is not your opponents problem, that is not the game designers problem. that is the consequence of your choice. If beating these dual land raider list is that important to you, break theme. if theme is that important to you, stop whining about your inability to kill land raiders.


In rejoinder, let me suggest you stop drinking GW's cool aid and being unpleasant. I've been playing Chaos since the 2nd ed. codex and the 4e CSM and CD codecies presented a radical shift in the Chaos armies to push Chaos players into playing undivided and thus having to buy more models - for factions that I don't care for at all. I'm not going to spend my money on GW products like a lemming out of some mendicant understanding of loyalty.

It is indeed my opponent's problem because I simply refuse to play some people who bring certain lists, and rightly so. You don't bring a gun to a fist fight amongst men unless you're a coward and likewise, you don't bring certain lists to a friendly game unless you don't have the brain to win a fair fight. You want to prove something, game on truely equal terms.

However, beating LR lists isn't important to me. As I said, I simply don't play certain games because they'd be boring and annoying. If you can't win without spamming your codex's most powerful unit combos you're a bad player anyway. Of course, this doesn't include tournaments where all that sort of this is expected.

I'd agree with the point that not every unit combo can be viable if GW actually bothered to try. It doesn't take a million dollars to issue erratas or create specialty themed army lists, particularly when you have your own magazine and the internet. Funnily enough, this is what every other gaming company - companies who aren't the size or budget of GW - are doing. Indeed, they've proved they can do it with the 8th edition of Warhammer as well as Apocalypse datasheets in some small measure. Army lists don't require new models, just make the existing models actually work is all I'm asking. List building isn't rocket science, particularly not if you commit to erratas and frequent updates.



this is not gw problem.


Au contraire, my little popedom. It's GW's problem because I'm voting with the only thing that actually matters, my money. I'm not alone in the way I feel about the subject, a great many players are also voting with their wallets. When more people do indeed vote the same way GW will either adapt or fold as the free market dictates.



it is the players choice how they play the game. if you don't like it stop playing these people. no one is forcing you to.


I'm trying to remember at what point I said that I played these people and, no, I didn't. I don't play these people, I play sane people who can discern what's more important than fleeting wins that don't count for anything.



the background stuff is provided for those who prefer fluffy armies, while the powerful units are provided for people who prefer super competitive tourney play. Again, if you choose not to field super competitive armies, thats fine, really, good for you, but when you lose regularly to people who focus significantly more on gaming then you, don't act surprised, or cry cheese.


Again, I don't play competitively and nor do I play idiots who bring tourny armies to friendly fluff games. I also most certainly am not crying cheese, since really I don't believe in cheese, just don't be surprised when I don't play your army because I'd rather go to my dentist.



These people are playing on a different level to you. match that level or stop complaining about it.


Ah, yes, the mucho 'if I had a brain I'd realize that winning a game has no intrinsic value' level. As Sun Tsu put it, there's no skill in predicting a thunderclap after lightning. Believe it or not, I have played spam lists and beaten them with my 'fluffy' armies, it's just a complete pain, absolutely boring and you have to exploit loopholes in the rules to do it. Again, just about as fun and meaningful as a root canal.



On the topic at hand, in a friendly environment 2 raiders can be a bit of a handful. etc


Thanks for getting the bile out of your system and agreeing with me. Next time, take a deep breath and calm down before you go off like a firecracker and read stuff into my posts that weren't there!

Lord Asgul
16-08-2010, 11:44
over 9000 is considered evil

Meriwether
16-08-2010, 15:39
Dark eldar, who spam Brightlances like there is no tomorrow and care little about land raiders,

*Ahem*. Those are dark lances. And don't forget blasters! DE do not get melta, but For 660 points you can bring sixty guys with twelve long-range S8 lance weapons and twelve short-ranged S8 lance weapons.

I've been playing Dark Eldar since they came out, and -- with the notable exception of Black Templars -- the more land raiders I see across from me, the easier I know the game is going to be.


In a perfect world 1000 points of any units from army a will be perfectly balanced with 1000 points from army b.

Even in a "perfect" world that wouldn't be true. There is no way 1000 points of grots would be equivalent to 1000 points of Leman Russes. They quite literally cannot hurt the tanks.

And we wouldn't want it to be true, anyway. Variety is the spice of life, and different builds for the same points helps keep 40K fun.


No, I'm saying not everyone can afford to buy a ton of Black Templar/whatever kits in order to defeat that one guy with more disposable income than brain cells.

So 40K players are supposed to limit their own options based on the socio-economic status of their opponents?

I own tens of thousands of points of Eldar, precisely so I can field whatever I want, when I want to. (I can't quite maximize any option in the codex -- but I'm close!) I've never heard anyone whine at me that because I can afford all those wave serpents, it speaks toward my lack of thinking abilities.

That is a new and hilarious whine, one I have never heard before.

---------------------

Besides, we're talking about *melta guns* here. With a tiny bit of ingenuity, you can kitbash together something that looks a lot like a melta gun for almost free.


What happens to the precious melta units that you've paid so much for in points are in 6" of a Land Raider next turn after what's inside pops out?

Often, the melta unit dies. ....which is why you need other units backing up those melta units to deal with the contents of the vehicle. (If you kill the tank with melta and then pummel the survivors with low-AP ordnance, they're much less of a threat).


Guard, Eldar and DE have enough problems, however, killing Marines and surviving mere boltgun fire to worry about killing 3 Land Raiders.

I have never lost to marines with my Dark Eldar. It's never even been close.

...and the Eldar list is so full of Marine-killy goodness it isn't funny. I can't say I've never lost to marines with my Eldar -- but that's only because I'm not 100% on it. If I have, it's rare.

Eldar and DE in particular do not fear Land Raiders, and they do not fear power armor.

I can't really speak to guard, as I am still assembling my army. (Two years and counting on that job...)


In rejoinder, let me suggest you stop [sic] being unpleasant.

If someone's being sufficiently rude that it needs to be commented on, report it to the Mods and they will deal with it. Castigating The Marshel for being unpleasant when you are being so very unpleasant yourself* is just funny.

*If you would like me to point out where you have been very unpleasant, PM me and I will happily give you my opinion on the matter.

commander of the marines
16-08-2010, 15:55
I think I just found the problem...



15 men, from 2 units, in one land Raider? CHEESE!

It seems that you do not know that you can put only ONE UNIT in a land raider NOT TWO except if its a unit joined by character which this is clearly not.

so as a matter of fact you are cheating big time

mrln68
16-08-2010, 16:02
There is no way 1000 points of grots would be equivalent to 1000 points of Leman Russes. They quite literally cannot hurt the tanks.

You obviously haven't seen the Grotz of the Rebellion then. (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222217)

Even discounting them - you can do a good job of bogging down any armor or other heavy units by the sheer numbers involved. With an objectives based game - you can quite easily pull a win from that. Annihilation type games...not so much, but still - it makes for a different type of game that can be fun from time to time.


It seems that you do not know that you can put only ONE UNIT in a land raider NOT TWO except if its a unit joined by character which this is clearly not.

so as a matter of fact you are cheating big time

Really - if you are going to make a comment...especially calling someone a cheater...RTFT. On the first page, the OP had the typo pointed out and it was corrected.

Meriwether
16-08-2010, 16:16
You obviously haven't seen the Grotz of the Rebellion then. (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222217)

LOL. I'm talking about actual grots from the actual 40K rules, of course.


Even discounting them - you can do a good job of bogging down any armor or other heavy units by the sheer numbers involved. With an objectives based game - you can quite easily pull a win from that.

No, you really couldn't. 1000 points of Leman Russes is six tanks. Not counting the fact that grots will get killed, broken, tank shocked, and pinned by ordnance while the Russes suffer no damage, the grotz also can do nothing to stop the Russes from parking on the objectives.

So the *absolute best* scenario the all-grotties could manage is a tie, and that is rather unlikely.

The point being that 1000 points of A can not and should not automatically be equivalent to 1000 points of B. If that were the case, nobody would ever need to think when making an army list, and how sad would that be? :cries:

----------------

That is only nominally on-topic, though. The issue at hand in the OP's question is that of rock-paper-scissors, and the grotz vs. Russes is an extreme and silly example of that.

The thing is, with the exception of necrons and daemons (Yes, I agree with DeviantAngel on daemons), any balanced 5th edition list will be able to rather easily deal with three Land Raiders -- in 1850 points. In larger games (to a point), it's even easier to deal with them.

So Land Raiders are a great rock, but everyone's got paper.

R0ot
16-08-2010, 17:25
If I had the 4th I'd be running 4 Land Raider Crusaders in my Black Templar list of 1750. But alas I'll have to cope with 3.

Thud
16-08-2010, 19:44
So you're saying victory goes to he who has the most cash?

That's a gross over-simplification but, essentially, yes. Just like the biggest houses, the best holidays and the nicest cars also go to the people with the most cash.

In 40k, just as in every other aspect of life, you need to prioritize and be honest with yourself about what you want out of the experience. If you want a tournament-winning army, then you will have to buy the models needed to make that army. If you want to win Golden Daemons, you need to spend a good deal of hours practicing your painting skills.

Sorry to be the one to have to tell you this, but that's just life. Also, there's no Santa Claus.



Hey guys, let's not bother playing the game, let's just compare the depths of our wallets for the win, huh?

Well, it would give us a lot more time to spend on trolling 40k forums with logical fallacies.


Ok, sure, spam melta, las, or whatever to kill transports and grab the win. Let's look beyond the Land Raider for a moment. What if those Land Raiders are all Crusaders carrying 8 Assault Marines with Th/SS? You're still screwed, no matter how much Melta you're carrying.

What game are you playing?

But let's just say Assault Terminators (which is what I assume you meant) are the be all and end all of 40k. Well, aren't they one of the most points per dollar efficient units in the game? What was your original point again?


Melta spam is also horrid vs. MCs, particularly if those MCs have a ++ Save.

Let's also remember, not every army has meltaguns. Daemons, for example. "But wait!" i hear cry, "Daemons have MC's!"

Yeah, Daemons have MCs with 6" movement and overcosted wings. And hitting moving transports on 6s is hopeless (see 'the problem with Screamers'). Any army in 5th edition who's weakness is armour has a practically crippling problem that needs severe overcompensations on the other sides to make up for it... that doesn't happen.

Huh? You seem to have made the assumption that I am under the impression that Daemons are good.


What if you happen to want an Ulthwe theme army and all you can do is 'spam' bright lances? Or you happen to be like me and love 1KSons who can't field any Melta?

Then that's a choice you make, and you have to live with the consequences.


And let's not forget the biggest problem that by these rules, every army slowly gets churned out the same as everyone else's. Heck, GW might as well not print codexes at all! Let them print full army lists for us, that way there's no need for variety, imagination or, indeed, to think at all for any reason whatsoever!

Right. Okay then.


No, I'm saying not everyone can afford to buy a ton of Black Templar/whatever kits in order to defeat that one guy with more disposable income than brain cells.

I hear some people are willing to give you money to do stuff for them about 40 hours a week. Might be worth taking a look into.

CushionRide
17-08-2010, 04:15
if i remember correctly you can have 6-7 land raiders in an apropriate deamon hunters list around 2000pts. if im not mistaken

ive never had problems with LandRaiders, be it using them or fighting against them, monoliths on the other hand.......

Meriwether
17-08-2010, 04:51
Monoliths are great. The more your opponent brings, the easier it is to phase him out. If you have the right stuff, you just nuke 'em, and if you don't, you ignore them and they go away with the rest of his army.

The Marshel
17-08-2010, 07:31
Even in a "perfect" world that wouldn't be true. There is no way 1000 points of grots would be equivalent to 1000 points of Leman Russes. They quite literally cannot hurt the tanks.

i was kinda referring to lotr sbg with that, where assuming you havent done something really stupid in you're list building (and i mean really, really stupid) even points against even points will result in a very well balanced game 9 times out of 10. This comes at a huge sacrifice to variety though. sbg stat lines and special rules are simple enough that you can derive the base stat lines for each species with some simple knowledge of wargear cost (few exceptions exist to this)

Its certainly possible to do in 40k or wfb, but 99.99% would prefer to keep the complicity and variety in their armies (myself included)

@ deviant Apostle. I apologize, you are right in that i have read to far into your post and been a bit more rude then productive. I do however still stand by my opinion that multiple raiders really aren't that hard to deal with when using a properly competitive army.

thewizard99
17-08-2010, 22:10
I hear some people are willing to give you money to do stuff for them about 40 hours a week. Might be worth taking a look into.

I believe they call that work? And that thing they call a wage is really money that goes in to your bank account at the end of every month and feels like Christmas every time?

Balgora
17-08-2010, 22:24
I heard that sometimes people have other commitments in their lives..little things like eating, families, student loans or houses that cost this mythical money you speak of and mean less of it for warhammer.

Also heard that being annoyingly obtuse and sarcastic solves everybodies problems, thankyou. :)

Yes i'm being a spoilsport and ruining your jokes but meh.

Anyway on topic: as a tau player i'd almost rather face a heavy LR force than a well balanced one because even a tac squad or some scouts will mince my suits or anything that falls out of a transport, not to mention kroot.

And railguns help too :chrome:

thewizard99
17-08-2010, 22:37
And railguns help too :chrome:

Those Strength 10 Shots sure do some damage to your friendly neighbour hood land raider

Bunnahabhain
17-08-2010, 23:41
And railguns help too :chrome:

Why? they're not even ordnance, let alone AP1 ordnance with 2d6 Armour pen. And 72" is far to close for comfort for a land raider... Railguns are weedy little things!

GrogDaTyrant
18-08-2010, 00:01
So Land Raiders are a great rock, but everyone's got paper.

Huh... So where the hell's the paper in my army? All I see are PKs, and Deathrollas. The former (along with suicide tankbusta units) get to pray for 4's or more likely 6's to hit. And the latter took GW 2 years to finally FAQ an answer for, and has it's own list of problems.

Not everyone has been gifted with decent counter-measures to deal with LR spam.

Meriwether
18-08-2010, 02:16
I play orks, too, Grog. (I play most everything, but orks were my first army after the now-long-defunct Genestealer Cult).

Deffrollas, Tankhammers and Tankbusta Bombs, PKs (yeah, you often hit on sixes, but you get a boatload of PKs in an ork army), Deff Dreds, Killa Kans, Warpheads (the chance of rolling 'Zap' is about the same as a chance to hit with BS 2, and I generally put mine with the TBBs for 'Ere We Go or Zap purposes)... All of the above to rather well against AV 14 vehicles.