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Vedar
13-08-2010, 18:39
Bear with me.

As a Daemon player I have a rough time as it is. I like Daemons and think it is fun to play them despite the flaws they have. (Randomness, trouble with mech lists and suck). Flaws can be good thing in a army as well as it brings a challenge.

Soon I'm about to face the Grey Knight Release (my friend has been wanting them for years). Is this a bad thing? No not at all. I fact I can't wait to send my evil daemonic forces against the goody two shoes grey knights.

This got me thinking. What in most common soldier on the battle field?

The Space Marine of course. Thousand apon thosands of little tiny space marines do battle each day quite often against other space marines. (I'm not talking about fluff here).

So with that in mind wouldn't it be fun to create an army designed to beat the space marine in his 3+ armor, Rhinos and Land Raiders. Then you would give then some kind of bonus to compensate like troops chioces when they are destoryed come back on the table.

Of course this would never happen, but It would be fun to see Space Marines mowed down by the dozen and have to come up with Plan B when standard Plan A is not going to work.

Hrw-Amen
13-08-2010, 18:46
Not quite sure what you are getting at as there are loads of armies that fight against and win against Space Marines, or so I'm told. Isn't an anti Space Marine army, Chaos Space Marines?

Drakcore Bloodtear
13-08-2010, 18:46
I've always seen Tau as the closest anti-SM army there is

Battle suits with plasma rifles, and missle pods
Standard guns that wound on 3's (Ok, not the best example but it's better then nothing)
Railguns, ion cannons
Reasonable fast army
Vespids (Ok, laugh it up :p)
ect...

Zweischneid
13-08-2010, 18:47
Fluff-wise? I think Chaos Space Marines pretty much are the Anti-Marine Army you look for.

Game-wise? The "ideal" (if often not achieved) is to have all armies "roughly" balanced.

I think the old Eldar Starcannon-spam kinda fit your bill of Anti-Marines quite well. I don't think it was all that much fun, but hey, YMMD.

marv335
13-08-2010, 18:49
IG
Plasma/melta/Ap3 spam galore.
How much more anti marine do you need?

Bunnahabhain
13-08-2010, 18:51
IG
Plasma/melta/Ap3 spam galore.
How much more anti marine do you need?

Exactly.

Endless ways to open up their transports, and then beat 3+ saves, at long, long range. What more could you want?

KingDeath
13-08-2010, 18:55
The Lord (tm) in his infinite wisdom saw that there were too many 3+ armour saves and so he made the Imperial army!

Behold it's many tanks and the huge pieces of artillery! Rejoice at it's nigh infinite numbers of meltaguns!

But, besides that. Daemonhunters have been around long before anyone ever thought of having a separate daemon codex. If the GW Codex designers have even a few braincells left then the next DH codex will be balanced enough to allow DH vs. Daemons of Chaos battles without screwing the later.

Lord Damocles
13-08-2010, 19:02
It would be fun to see Space Marines mowed down by the dozen
Dark Eldar ;)

spetswalshe
13-08-2010, 19:11
Feh, I remember the 3rd ed. big box release, pitting the might of the huge Imperium against the secretive and rare Dark Eldar. I wondered why the models of the galaxy's most utterly evil elite force outnumbered those of the filthy breed-like-rabbits humans. Then I realised it took six Eldar to bring down one Marine. I ain't got high hopes for Mat Ward's version.

insectum7
13-08-2010, 20:09
As A Marine player I fear IG and Tau, both already mentioned. They shoot naaaassty, and I only have about 50 guys.

yanlou
13-08-2010, 22:15
a thousand sons csm army is very anti-marine with there lovely ap3 bolters

Latro_
13-08-2010, 23:16
anti marine?! i thought there were crap loads of those armies out there, you know, all the other marine armies!

Vaktathi
13-08-2010, 23:33
Several armies can already do anti-marine exceedingly well. Dark Eldar with 30+ S8 AP2 weapons in fast platforms, Imperial Guard with dozens of long range AP2/3 weapons and blasts, etc.

We don't need a specialized anti-marine army. Fluffwise there isn't anything really and in terms of gameplay and the metagame it's not necessary. What would be helpful is less focus on Marine stuff in general, especially those like the last 3 books where the fluff is atrocious, and there's more special rules and variants between small thousand strong Astartes groups than other far more numerous and varied races.

Grand Master Raziel
14-08-2010, 04:47
So with that in mind wouldn't it be fun to create an army designed to beat the space marine in his 3+ armor, Rhinos and Land Raiders. Then you would give then some kind of bonus to compensate like troops chioces when they are destoryed come back on the table.

Okay, here's what you do: you go and get the 3rd edition main rules and all the 3rd edition codexes. Distribute the 3rd edition dexes to your gaming friends, and try and convince them to play 3rd edition. Good luck with that! :rolleyes:

Chucklemoney
14-08-2010, 06:35
Dark Eldar ;)

This.

Every time space marines are the opponenent you can guarantee souls by the dozen.

jsullivanlaw
16-08-2010, 21:17
Bear with me.

As a Daemon player I have a rough time as it is. I like Daemons and think it is fun to play them despite the flaws they have. (Randomness, trouble with mech lists and suck). Flaws can be good thing in a army as well as it brings a challenge.

Soon I'm about to face the Grey Knight Release (my friend has been wanting them for years). Is this a bad thing? No not at all. I fact I can't wait to send my evil daemonic forces against the goody two shoes grey knights.

This got me thinking. What in most common soldier on the battle field?

The Space Marine of course. Thousand apon thosands of little tiny space marines do battle each day quite often against other space marines. (I'm not talking about fluff here).

So with that in mind wouldn't it be fun to create an army designed to beat the space marine in his 3+ armor, Rhinos and Land Raiders. Then you would give then some kind of bonus to compensate like troops chioces when they are destoryed come back on the table.

Of course this would never happen, but It would be fun to see Space Marines mowed down by the dozen and have to come up with Plan B when standard Plan A is not going to work.

There already is an anti marine army. It's just not all that popular at the moment but might seem a revival come november. In case you haven't caught on yet, that army is Dark Eldar. Landraider? 18 darklances should cover it. Rhinos? Str 8 is great v. armor 11. Marines? Crapload of heavy plasma cannons and incubi get the job done. Much less effective against non marine armies.

Angelust
16-08-2010, 22:02
Yeah, basically most armies have some kind of answer to MEq armies. 40-60 3+ armor saves don't really survive when the other army has either 200+ models or tons and tons of AP1-3 weapons.

I can see CSM being more effective for their cost, but not regular old space marines...

Merus
16-08-2010, 22:11
Every army I play anymore is already anti-Marine.

We have a horde-style Ork player who comes and plays with our group once every week or so; and let me tell you, he is pleased-as-punch that everyone's "all comer" lists are designed to fight Marines.

At least you have special rules to off-set peoples lists being tooled to kill you. ;)

insectum7
16-08-2010, 22:34
Fluff-wise it is hard to conceive of a faction built around the idea of killing marines, since there are so few marines around compared to everything else. If any faction was dedicated to it I would say Chaos SM, because of that whole Horus Heresy thing. :) They have some units to back that up too, like the Thousand Sons, though they are now lacking the Power Weapon wielding Bloodletters that they used to have. I think it's much easier to dedicate a story-driven army around it, than a new faction. A Huron Blackheart style character spends his time in The Eye recruiting specialist MEQ killers, then sets off on a campaign to sabotage and/or wipe out the chapters responsible for the "dethronement" from his "rightful position" as "Czar of the Cerberus Republic" or what not.

de Selby
16-08-2010, 22:39
Fluffwise, Chaos marines are the anti-marine army.

Game balance wise, I'd like to see a popular anti-mech army to shift the metagame back towards infantry a bit. Then everyone else can relax and stop worrying about filling their armies with the maximum possible number of anti-mech weapons just to compete. Maybe DE will fill this role, who knows.

Sinisterfence
16-08-2010, 22:59
from my last few games I'd say Eldar have some good anti-marine units, most notably Banshees, they tear through anything without an invulnerable save, when they assault your freshly deep striked sanguinary Guard and cut them down to a single marine in one turn, you start to get a bit worried ;)

Still Standing
16-08-2010, 23:01
Anti-Marine? That would be Sisters of Battle.

Meriwether
17-08-2010, 05:06
Game balance wise, I'd like to see a popular anti-mech army to shift the metagame back towards infantry a bit.

You read my mind!

Damien 1427
17-08-2010, 17:07
I was under the impression the Anti-Beakie army was, in fact, Beakies. Las/Plas, Power Weapons, high rate of accurate (And rather painful) firepower, considerable anti-tank ability... Beakies truly are their own worst enemy.

Ozendorph
17-08-2010, 19:04
If anything is better than vet guard against marines, I'd rather not know about it.

Godzooky
17-08-2010, 19:11
Just find a way to crowbar 90% of Warseer posters into a FOC.

Hey presto! :)

Lordmonkey
17-08-2010, 19:27
You can customise ANY army to be anti-marine by tailoring your list. Why make an entire army book dedicated to such a purpose?

Cain-asmodeus
18-08-2010, 03:11
If taken out a few SM lists before with my crons, you just have to know what to expect from your opponent a lil bit. use a little bit of strategy, and some good rolls and voila. you've won.


But I do beleive the person who started the thread was wondering how to utilize his Deamon Army to engage the near coming grey knights.... I too am curious how to tool up my list of deamons to destroy alot of these I.G. players at my store.... I dislike all there feilds of FIRE....:eek:

by default from WFB
I have one unit bloodcrushers (5)
two units of ten bloodletters (20)
two heralds of khorne
-one on jugger
-one on chariot
one unit of flamers (3)
one unit of screamers (3)
and a tooled up Tzeentch Deamon prince

I was wondering what i should get next, (i prefer Khorne and Tzeentch)

Badger[Fr]
18-08-2010, 11:06
Game balance wise, I'd like to see a popular anti-mech army to shift the metagame back towards infantry a bit..
It would be poor game design, IMHO. Some armies (namely, Vanilla Space Marines or Eldar) entirely depend on their transports while others can afford the luxury of having decent infantry builds (be it Tyranids, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Orks, or the Imperial Guard).

Grand Master Raziel
18-08-2010, 15:53
If taken out a few SM lists before with my crons, you just have to know what to expect from your opponent a lil bit. use a little bit of strategy, and some good rolls and voila. you've won.

Sounds like a pretty good formula for defeating any army. The only thing I'd add: bring a half-decent list to the table.


by default from WFB
I have one unit bloodcrushers (5)
two units of ten bloodletters (20)
two heralds of khorne
-one on jugger
-one on chariot
one unit of flamers (3)
one unit of screamers (3)
and a tooled up Tzeentch Deamon prince


Well, I don't know if I can help you, but this list might help the OP, as it's full of stuff that I, as a SM player, would be most concerned about facing when playing against a Daemon list. It's chock-full of stuff that ignores armor saves in one way or another. Flamers will butcher squads in the open, and the Bloodletters and Bloodcrushers will butcher any unit they get a charge against. Bloodcrushers have the added feature of being ridiculously tough to kill - they're almost like a unit of Monstrous Creatures. They can be tarpitted by Dreadnoughts, but about the only thing an SM player might field that has a hope in hell of destroying them are TH+SS Termies.

The list's main weakness is that it doesn't have much that can pop open a transport the turn it arrives. The Daemon Prince can probably do it, but I don't think anything else can. You'd want more anti-vehicle mojo to pose a serious threat to a mech list, which probably means taking more Tzeench stuff.

the1stpip
18-08-2010, 17:34
It is a very rare day that my Dark Eldar dont table Space Marine armies.

Grand Master Raziel
19-08-2010, 02:32
Enjoy it while you can. The upshot of DE getting a new dex is the horrendously broken stuff that can currently be done with DE won't be around for much longer.

the1stpip
19-08-2010, 02:47
Yep, we will have new, horribly broken stuff to use, as GW will want to ensure that everyone jumps on the bandwagon lol.

Vaktathi
19-08-2010, 02:54
Enjoy it while you can. The upshot of DE getting a new dex is the horrendously broken stuff that can currently be done with DE won't be around for much longer.

Remember though, it's a Phil Kelly book. Remember Eldar in 4th? Orks until IG? The current SW book?

His books generally become the gold standard for power, or at least contenders for that upon their release.:p

TheLaughingGod
19-08-2010, 03:13
Remember though, it's a Phil Kelly book. Remember Eldar in 4th? Orks until IG? The current SW book?

His books generally become the gold standard for power, or at least contenders for that upon their release.:p

Khaine bless you, Phil Kelly. :evilgrin:

Grand Master Raziel
19-08-2010, 03:29
To be fair to Phil, the current Codex: Eldar represented a huge nerf compared to what went before. Starcannon spam? Gone. Ulthwe Seer Councils of Doom? Gone. Stupidwind armies? Gone. Ranger Disruption Table? Gone. The only real problem with the current dex is/was the unkillable Falcons, and that had more to do with how Holofields interacted with SMF than with any flaw in Codex: Eldar.

As far as Codex: Orks go, the general consensus was they needed a big boost, and they got one that made everybody happy. The only real problem with that book are Nob units with cheesy builds, and that emerged as an unintended consequence to how the wound allocation rules work. More on that later. Also remember, the current Codex: Orks got rid of the annoying Heavy CCW mechanic entirely, removing one major irritant to those of us who play armies with good armor saves. Orks sure do make us take a lot of them, but at least we get the full save!

As for Space Wolves - can't comment intelligently. Haven't bought the book yet, nor played against anyone using it.

Regarding Nobz, the abusiveness of that unit could be significantly reduced by adding a clause to the wound allocation rules stating that multi-wound models who do not have the IC rule must be allocated one wounding hit for every remaining wound they have before hits may be allocated on another model. That would keep Ork players from spreading the wounds around so incoming fire has minimal effect, and GW wouldn't have to be quite so careful about not allowing multi-wound units to have differing gear as they have been since that particular form of abuse came to light.

Meriwether
19-08-2010, 04:10
Orks and Eldar have something in common: They both have several highly competitive builds. Phil Kelly is a codex-writing genius, even if he doesn't always nail it 100%.

ReveredChaplainDrake
19-08-2010, 16:29
If anything is better than vet guard against marines, I'd rather not know about it.
Tyranids. Much better against Marines because the only Transports Marines can really count on are the tin-can Rhinos and the Zoanthrope-bait Land Raiders, and even then, they can't competently field enough to make a difference against what little anti-tank Tyranids can muster. Offensively, Marines just can't bring the dice volume to make them effective against Tyranids. Heck, even in the fluff, Tyranids are the bane of Marines. Which other faction could take the entire 1st Company of the most Mary Sue Space Marine chapter in the galaxy, based on one of the most heavily defended worlds in the Imperium, give them months to prepare and entrench, and still kill them to a man in a single land battle? Screw the casualty ratio, that's impressive.

That all said, look what Vet Guard do to Tyranids... :cries:

Capardio
19-08-2010, 22:18
Guard plasma spam all the way...
Just take loads of vets with 3 plasma guns each in chimeras, some vendettas with melta vets to crack armor and maybe an executioner or 3...

Grimmeth
20-08-2010, 10:42
I think the general consensus is any army can go anti Marine, but that may come as a detriment to going against other things.
Maybe we should be looking at which army (as an all-comers build) is going to be the best at anti marine?

Meriwether
20-08-2010, 15:28
We've already done that, Grimmeth. Dark Eldar all-comers lists absolutely slaughter marines.

The more high-toughness, good armor save troops, and vehicles on the board, the easier it is for the DE to obliterate them.

DE do struggle against hordes, though.

the1stpip
20-08-2010, 15:51
My Dark Eldar are starting to get the hang of Orks (probably due to all the Battlewagons) but I hate facing large Guard armies.

Any elite army is going to get battered though.

Mike3791
20-08-2010, 15:57
All non marine armies ARE anti-marine

Grimmeth
20-08-2010, 16:57
We've already done that, Grimmeth. Dark Eldar all-comers lists absolutely slaughter marines.

The more high-toughness, good armor save troops, and vehicles on the board, the easier it is for the DE to obliterate them.

DE do struggle against hordes, though.

Unfortunately we may have to exclude Dark Elder due to the fact that in 3 short months they'll be (finally) getting their up to date codex. And no-one (who's saying anything) knows what's going to be in it.
Tyranids seem pretty good as well, for reasons already given.

Meriwether
20-08-2010, 17:18
Well, we can exclude them when we exclude them if we need to exclude them. In the meantime, we've got a decade of near-effortless beekee spanking under our belts, and if we are not acknowledged we will enslave you all! (We're likely to do that anyway, of course).

Cain-asmodeus
22-08-2010, 05:10
So if i get this straight, if I use alot of Khorne deamons and Tzeencth deamons ill be able to maul SM?


specifically bloodletters and horrors? whats the best tactics against sm and ig, bc i keep getting slaughtered when they come on the board?




I also would like to ask a clarifying question, On the 2nd turn of deamons coming onto the board, does the rest of my army deep strike onto the game automatically, or do i simply bring them in as reserve deep strike? bc....i had an unlucky roll, and khorne bloodletters couldnt be patient and deep striked into the feild 1st turn and got wiped out by a few gun lines....and lets juss say there was barely any room on the table i could not come in without facing A HUGE IG firing line...... any advice fellow players? id like to beat them finally both sm and ig. with goood dice rolls too


i just got a new unit of horrors 10

and a few more flamers 5 (total of 8 now)

i got tailored for half khorne, an now half tzeencth

bocaj
22-08-2010, 14:28
I find Daemons have lots of anti-MEQ stuff. SOulgrinders with an ap3 s8 pie plate, any khorne and nurgle is hard for them to kill i.e. 68 bolter marines rapid firing kills 10 PBs

Mortarion74
22-08-2010, 22:43
I have never had a problem against marines, and my own chapters have a rough 50-50 record even at full strength. I never understod why everyone says marines are the best army, as they simply are not.

Dont get my wrong they are good but we all know what weapons simply slaughter marines on foot, and an AV 14 tank is an AV14 tank regardless of what army is was fielded by. Imperial guard can swamp the enemy with light infantry and tanks for the same cost of a marine army and get 1\5th more than what the marines have. I have so many times looked at my little platoon standing against a green tide or chaos horde, and end regret the rather un-impressive 3+ save against a good 3rd of the weapons available to their 40k universe enemies.

In My advice matches what has been said by so many, just choose the right gear to go marine hunting.

Axis
23-08-2010, 04:58
Dark Eldar ;)

This.

Dark eldar rape marines so hard its not even funny. The problem is that there are so few dark eldar players out there. Eldar also have a good time vs marines imo.

Wyrmwood
23-08-2010, 06:38
This.

Dark eldar rape marines so hard its not even funny. The problem is that there are so few dark eldar players out there. Eldar also have a good time vs marines imo.

Huzzah! I play both Craftworld and Dark Eldar :).

Meriwether
23-08-2010, 14:20
Huzzah! I play both Craftworld and Dark Eldar :).

Me, too. And Orks. Oh, and Marines. And Guard. And Emperor's Children. And up until I sold all my Tzeench bits last month, Daemons. :D

Justicar Valius
23-08-2010, 14:57
Dark Eldar ;)

In their current incarnation I couldn't agree more. We will have to wait until November to see if they still butcher them like pigs.

Guard can do it ridiculously well, as soon as the autocannons and lascannons open up tthose transports the heavy stuff slaughters them.

Tau do well and.

Stealin' Genes
23-08-2010, 16:29
Tyranids. Much better against Marines because the only Transports Marines can really count on are the tin-can Rhinos and the Zoanthrope-bait Land Raiders, and even then, they can't competently field enough to make a difference against what little anti-tank Tyranids can muster. Offensively, Marines just can't bring the dice volume to make them effective against Tyranids. Heck, even in the fluff, Tyranids are the bane of Marines. Which other faction could take the entire 1st Company of the most Mary Sue Space Marine chapter in the galaxy, based on one of the most heavily defended worlds in the Imperium, give them months to prepare and entrench, and still kill them to a man in a single land battle? Screw the casualty ratio, that's impressive.

That all said, look what Vet Guard do to Tyranids... :cries:

The Ultras lost much, much more than just the first company on Macragge. When the Ultras landed at the polar fortresses to relieve the first company, the 4th and 6th (if memory serves) suffered heavy losses retaking the fortresses, not to mention the unknown but probably very large number of Ultramar PDF that were killed.

That said, Ultramarines aren't the best example, some chapters have lost far more.

Tyranids have eaten at least two SM home worlds (The Emperor's Scythes homeworld of Sotha and the Mortifactor's homeworld), they wiped the Lamentors and Scythes down to less than a company each, and I'm pretty sure there's more I've forgotten about.

OldMan
23-08-2010, 20:33
May i ask a question?

Who marines are good against?
They seem to be the worst (raped by DE, Eldar, Tyranid, Tau, CSM, IG and even sisters)

Stealin' Genes
23-08-2010, 21:08
Much of what people are saying is that these forces can tailor their lists to specifically punish Space Marines if they so desire, although some of them are better at it than others.

DE are a special case. DE's codex is something like 11 years old, and many of the units in it are terrible. If you discount them, though, the resulting army ends up frighteningly effective against Marines, largely as a side effect of the book being ancient.

Most of the other armies people are mentioning -can- tailor to fight SM. But honestly, the way the average game store looks these days, beating SM isno longer the gold standard; there's more light infantry around these days than there used to be (Orks and IG being solidly powerful armies definitely helped with that), and building a pure anti-marine army isn't as safe a bet anymore. And a lot of clubs I've played with frown on tailoring to begin with.

In the average game, most armies have a fair fight against SM. A few have an edge, by virtue of having an anomalously strong 'dex, but SM are hardly the weakest list.

Hunger
24-08-2010, 20:08
Fluff is always > tabletop actuality, and since Astartes are so rare in the galaxy that the average soldier of any race is unlikely to ever meet one in his life there should certainly not be an "anti-Marine army".

Dragoon King
24-08-2010, 20:46
As a Black Legion fanatic, my favorite opponent is SM. They are also my least favorite. I fight my best friend's Dark Angels about once a week, and I was on a tear until he came up with a Razorback heavy list. It beat me 5 outta 6 games, a few VERY badly. Just tweaked my list a bit and changed tactics, and I'm on a 3 game win streak against them. Any force can be anti-marine, but sadly also anti-CSM, lol. All depends on the quality of the opponent. I've faced IG, Nids, SoB, Eldar, and other SM armies many times, but dang if those DA don't give me a heck of a challenge every game. Still, even when losing badly, my friend is nervous when I can get close, lol. Usually, our games go something like this: Turns 1-3 I get so shot up I just wanna quit, but then remember that by turn four it usually turns into a swirling melee in the middle of the table, and all our carefully laid plans and stratagems are utterly useless. Not that I'm complaining, though usually outnumbered, I LIKE it close up and personal. That's my bread and butter. Close the distance, and batter them to submission with assault weapons and bring yer close combat heavy hitters to bear. But after awhile he'll learn to counter this, and I'll have to start all over again. That's the beauty of SM, they are adaptable, but so are CSM. I did recently watch the Dark Angels face another friend's Nids, and it was the worst loss I've seen the DA take in quite some time. Utterly dominated. Well, off to figure out an antinid CSM list on that note, lol.

Bunnahabhain
24-08-2010, 22:58
Fluff is always > tabletop actuality, and since Astartes are so rare in the galaxy that the average soldier of any race is unlikely to ever meet one in his life there should certainly not be an "anti-Marine army".

Exactly.

Thankfully, big guns are anti-everybody.

Full blown WARRGGHH, with heavily armoured orks? Rebellious Guard in bunkers around the space port? Bring up the Demolisher.

So when the very rare power armoured opponents turn up, you weapon of choice is easy, and effective.