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View Full Version : Cry CHEESE and let slip the dogs of war!



Draconis
14-08-2010, 20:24
We had a 750 game this morning. In it were 3 players as it was a free for all. But for this story, the 3rd player doesnt count. We'll refer to the other two as Player A and Player B.

Player A is Nids and B is Black Templar. Player A has a tervigon in the army and throughout the game, Player B states that he feels the tervigon is a form of cheese and very powerful for a 750. We were curious, what do the readers here at warseer feel? Do you think its alright to have one in that small of a game, or is it pure Wisconsin Cheddar?

MajorWesJanson
14-08-2010, 20:56
Player A is Nids and B is Black Templar. Player A has a tervigon in the army and throughout the game, Player B states that he feels the tervigon is a form of cheese and very powerful for a 750. We were curious, what do the readers here at warseer feel? Do you think its alright to have one in that small of a game, or is it pure Wisconsin Cheddar?

Nah. At a 500 progressive tourney a few months back, one player was running a russ, while anothr had a Vendetta.
One tervigon in 750 is fine.

negZero
14-08-2010, 21:02
Single cheap Tervigion is taking about 1/5 of that 750, my money is on him not having to much in other areas and hoping for Tervigon to win the game for him. Cheese armies can be beat by tactics and best tactic against this guy was to kill everything else

Draconis
14-08-2010, 22:41
Sorry bout the double post. The site was messing up and kept crashing. If a mod can remove the other one, i'd appreciate it.

Lord_BoB
14-08-2010, 23:45
A tervigon can end up being 1/3 of an army in 750, a couple of lasguns, no more tervigon, I love them, but if there are no other monstrous creatures to draw low ap fire then it will die, or even a dreadnought, or powerfists, or even a force weapon.

I know from experience, a low points game like this, the ork player had some killa kans that decimated the tervigon.

So in low points it can be extremely useful, but certainly not cheese, if it had an invulnerable save then it might just be a mild cheddar

Draconis
15-08-2010, 00:07
The only other MC in the list was a tool'd tyrant with a guard. The terv ended up spewing 27 gants, which comes out to 135 points extra. Plus adrenal glands and toxin sacs to help. The player calling cheese didnt like that it can do so much.

Nungunz
15-08-2010, 02:20
The only other MC in the list was a tool'd tyrant with a guard. The terv ended up spewing 27 gants, which comes out to 135 points extra. Plus adrenal glands and toxin sacs to help. The player calling cheese didnt like that it can do so much.

Wait, a Tervigon AND a tooled Tyrant at 750? That sounds like a fail of a list right there. Wouldn't be too hard to beat that as he's sucking up too many points in his MCs.

I don't find anything in the Tyranid codex cheesy. Hive guard are a bit overpowered, but there isn't anything in the codex that should make people scream OMG HAXX!

Draconis
15-08-2010, 02:33
List was as follows.

Tyrant. Armored shell. Lash/sword. TL brainleeches. Paroxysm and leech essense. Old adversary.

2x 10 Gants
1x Terv w/ Crushing claws. Cata/onslaught. Adrenal glands and toxin.
1x Tyrant Guard w/lash
2x Biovores to replace the 2x Hive Guard I havent put together yet.

I ended up beating both players, though the eldar force was still pretty much intact. The BT army was wiped to a man, though a mistake on our part about killing the ven. dread. He would have died in combat to the tyrant anyway. The tyrant was the one that destroyed him in shooting. 4 hits, 2 6s for glance and 2 6s on the glance table. Pure luck. But like I said, we screwed that part up. You shouldnt knock this list. Theres a nid deathstar army going around on the forums thats destroying everyting it touches. The creater, as far as I'm concerned for this particular list, listed it back in march or feb has handily beaten everyone so far. Once you get a few more points, put another tyrant guard with lashs' and a prime for wound allocation across the deathstar, you become very very hard to kill.

Oh, and to make it funnier, the eldar player wiped the terv in one round with 10 wounds from 12 guided wraithguard shots.... But not before my gants and terv took down the wraithlord.

Leez
15-08-2010, 02:50
We had a 750 game this morning. In it were 3 players as it was a free for all. But for this story, the 3rd player doesnt count. We'll refer to the other two as Player A and Player B.

Player A is Nids and B is Black Templar. Player A has a tervigon in the army and throughout the game, Player B states that he feels the tervigon is a form of cheese and very powerful for a 750. We were curious, what do the readers here at warseer feel? Do you think its alright to have one in that small of a game, or is it pure Wisconsin Cheddar?

This Black Templar player sounds like one of those annoying people that resorts to unsportsmanlike behaviour because they need to win at all costs. You might want to ask him to tone things down and not allow him to try to impose imaginary rules on other people.

Lyonator
15-08-2010, 06:10
Wouldn't call it cheese, but the tervigon is for sure not balanced in such a low points game.

Kervin
15-08-2010, 07:32
I personally don't call cheese unless it is cheese at any point level, but I rarely call cheese. A tervigon is cool and if you roll doubles on three dice it looses what little cheese it had (and you have a 44.444444% chance that you get the doubles). And BTW if you want real cheese see Vulkan He'Stan.

DeviantApostle
15-08-2010, 10:03
Not cheese, the Tervigon's a logical choice at 750 since it squeezes in one of the 'nid's party piece MCs that actually buffs the troops. If you're building an army right, you can take out the Tervigon, it's only T6 and you'll just about always have LoS, barring terrain.

Bunnahabhain
15-08-2010, 10:50
I personally don't call cheese unless it is cheese at any point level, but I rarely call cheese. A tervigon is cool and if you roll doubles on three dice it looses what little cheese it had (and you have a 44.444444% chance that you get the doubles). And BTW if you want real cheese see Vulkan He'Stan.

That makes no sense....

Vulkan is actually quite balanced at 750 points, as you are taking a quite pricey HQ, and can only have a few flamers/meltas/Hammers in the remaining 550ish points for his bonus to work on.

In a 2500pt ard boys list, however, you have ~2300points of other marines with weapons getting upgraded for free, and so he becomes rather unbalanced...

He is not an isolated example- plenty of things are very nasty around one points level, but much weaker at others.

LonelyPath
15-08-2010, 12:51
Tervigon at 750 = no cheese
Tyrant and tervigon at 750 = cheese

However, they are serious cutting into their points allowance and even those 27 additional Guants wouldn't really compensate much more. Personally though I would have opted for a Tyranid Prime at that points level.

Then again, the Tyrant and Tervigon would be no worse than fielding a LR or Greater Daemon at that same points level.

Draconis
15-08-2010, 18:17
Well, actually the tyrant didnt do much other than kill a few marines. He died in the second round of combat to a powerfist. Thats not cheese at all really. They have army wide preferred enemy, so paroxysm doesnt do anything and the marine wounds on a 2. So nope, the tyrant killed a total of 4 marines before dying. But more importantly, he tied them up so I could take objectives.

jasdc1
15-08-2010, 19:20
In the codex, not a FW gotta have permission to use model, not cheese.

Lord Damocles
15-08-2010, 19:51
I've seen far worse lists at 750pts ('You have how many Ravagers?!').


The sort of Guard army I'd field at 750pts would own that 'Nid list nine times out of ten...

TheLaughingGod
15-08-2010, 21:13
In the codex, not a FW gotta have permission to use model, not cheese.

This has been handily discussed in past threads. A) FW is in 99.9% of cases, underpowered, overcosted and only situationally useful. (Do not even bring up Super-Heavies/Fliers, those are by default not allowed outside Apoc/Spearhead) and B)You need permission to play anything by default. Because of this, Forgeworld units/rules/models are all 100% legal in pickup games without special hand holding. They have the right to ask to see your list/codex/rules. If they choose not to look that over, their bad.

Oguleth
15-08-2010, 21:19
It's not a soft list by any means, but considering other 750 lists it's possible to use, I dunno...

It's not very mobile and needs to get into close combat to kill vehicles - of course, if opponents only wants to close up and fight too, it can be a little daunting. But this is why you don't make a list just to fight stealers and gaunts...

kane40k
15-08-2010, 21:39
Nah i think as long as you have fun and can exept that games can be a challenge then its fine... i personaly dont mind. points are theyre to makesure the game remains balanced so as long as its not a t8 writhlord even your weakest units CAN touch it.

in essence what i think im saying is to not plan for something like that is poor planning, however if you are suprised by a unit selection, in the spirit of the game take the challange head on.

Draconis
15-08-2010, 21:50
The other player had a wraithlord : ) gants took care of that in 2 rounds of combat.

Nungunz
16-08-2010, 01:38
The other player had a wraithlord : ) gants took care of that in 2 rounds of combat.

Take Hormagaunts with Toxin Sacs. Wraithlord dies in 1 round of combat. :p

Draconis
16-08-2010, 02:33
Ran out of points : ) Figured, hey, why spend 2 points per model, when I can spend 10 points for one model and give it to everyone :) within 6" of course.

Bonzai
16-08-2010, 05:28
Lol. My 500 point list is 2 tervigons with catalyst, and 3x 10 termagaunts. Last game I played, they spawned 57 gaunts. Vs infantry, it's beastly. Vs mech, it's got some real problems. More of a rock/paper/scissors kind of list.

Grand Master Raziel
16-08-2010, 07:03
I think what may have happened here is a perfect storm between a new 5th edition dex and an old 4th edition one. A Tervigon isn't very difficult for a Tactical Squad with a power fist to take on - sure, it's a W6 TMC, but otherwise its stats are pretty sissy. Thing is, Black Templars don't have a unit exactly like that. Their Crusader Squads get the PF carried by the heavy weapon trooper, which means it's got a measly 1 attack - 1 attack with PE, sure, but still 1 attack. Nor does a BT player have Scouts he can use for a cheap Troops choice. Plus, he's got that mandatory Emperor's Champion. The EC is pretty cool, but certainly not Hive Tyrant cool. So, he has to field at least two Crusader Squads and probably two HQs (not sure of the EC can be the cumpulsory HQ or not) before he can cover other bases. To deal effectively with MCs, a BT player either has to field an expensive HQ with an adamantine mantle, 4++ from something or other, and a PF or TH, or he's got to field a Sword Brethren Squad (Termies or PA), which he might have tried to do without in a 750pt game. So, it could be that the BT player just couldn't afford the tools he needed to deal with high-Wound MCs without crippling his army in other areas. The solution to that is either to make a gentleman's agreement about what is and isn't acceptable in 750pt games (no MCs with more than 4 wounds and no vehicles with AV higher than 12, say) or play larger games that let people cover all their bases.

Also, let's face it, Nid players are generally going to cram as many MCs into their lists as they can, and the rest of us just need to learn to expect it. I don't think people who play only Nids understand how irritating it is to face massed MCs, which don't go down nearly as easily as similarly-priced vehicles. One good melta shot will bring down any vehicle in the game, whereas you have to direct a storm of such fire against MCs to bring them down - at least one for each wound it's got, and you'll most likely need more than that to account for the statistical probability of misses and failures to wound. Against that, the miniscule vulnerability they have to smallarms does not cut it as a balancing factor.

Souleater
16-08-2010, 07:32
GMR, when you've done ranting about TMCs may I point out that according to the OP they died pretty quickly in this battle.


Well, actually the tyrant didnt do much other than kill a few marines. He died in the second round of combat to a powerfist.


. ... the eldar player wiped the terv in one round with 10 wounds from 12 guided wraithguard shots.

They achieved what he wanted but they died doing it. That's hardly unkillable as you paint them.

I would also like to know what the Eldar did. The OP says they were irrelevant to the fighting yet they killed his support MC.

For my tastes two MCs at that points level is unbalancing - the Tervigons ability to spawn more gribblies is very powerful at that level.

Draconis
16-08-2010, 08:51
Actually, MC can die in one hit just as easily, and in some cases, even easier than vehicles. Force weapons do it very well. And as far as I know, all SM armies can take them. He also has a ven. dread in his 750 point list. Put on a TL Lascannon and I'm not going to last long as it'll be hard to get cover unless I walk it behind my Tyrant. But then, that keeps it out of 6" to support the gants. The reason hes there in the first place.

As for the eldar, the game was a 3 way with 5 objectives. 1 each in the players starting areas, and two in the middle. Each obj. was worth 3 KP. You also got KP for wiping out a FOC unit. It forces the 3 players to participate and not just sit back and wipe out the winner. The eldar player was playing 3 units of wraithguard. So his army was slow. I originally split my army in half to go after the two middle objectives but the BT player deepstriked his ven. dread near my objective. So I was forced to reconcile and deal with the BT player first, then the eldar. The eldar spent most of his time moving forward and shooting at gants in cover who had gone to ground and FNP. It bought me enough time to wipe the BT player and move back towards the middle.

jsullivanlaw
16-08-2010, 21:13
We had a 750 game this morning. In it were 3 players as it was a free for all. But for this story, the 3rd player doesnt count. We'll refer to the other two as Player A and Player B.

Player A is Nids and B is Black Templar. Player A has a tervigon in the army and throughout the game, Player B states that he feels the tervigon is a form of cheese and very powerful for a 750. We were curious, what do the readers here at warseer feel? Do you think its alright to have one in that small of a game, or is it pure Wisconsin Cheddar?

I'm sorry, i've fought tervigons before and i can't see how something that can't fight its way out of a paper bag could be considered cheesy. It might be possible to catch someone unprepared to fight a monsterous creature but unless you are using some sort of combat patrol type rules then every army should be prepared to kill infantry, vehicles, and/or monstrous creatures.

GabrielEvander
16-08-2010, 22:52
Don't need to field an Emperors Champion in 750 or less

gwarsh41
16-08-2010, 23:09
2 of them would have been cheese. Similar to 2 trigons, or 2 soul grinders.

Draconis
17-08-2010, 01:11
Correction needed to be made. During the game, the Tyrant lasted 3 rounds and killed the chaplin and 5 marines. To post a recap though, the terv spawned 27 total gants. Gants claimed one objective, one squad of marines, the EC and finished off the Wraithlord. Terv did 1 wound to the wraithlord. There will be no Terv in 750 point games. Though there will now be Lictors hiding in the shadows.

CushionRide
17-08-2010, 04:12
all i gotta say is... that since im from wisconsin i feel discriminated that bad cheese is always referred to in my state, california took the cheese state from us. blame them ^_^

SPAM, Apology

PS i usually fit as amany tervigons in my army as i possibly can. there one of the best things created in the nid army ^_^

Grand Master Raziel
17-08-2010, 05:42
GMR, when you've done ranting about TMCs may I point out that according to the OP they died pretty quickly in this battle.

The Hive Tyrant dying that easily was a fluke, plain and simple. In order to pop off a Tyrant with a PF, either the thing hit and wounded with practically every attack, or got lucky with some help from whatever else was in the squad - or both.

As far as the Tervigon goes, 12 guided Wraithcannon shots will kill just about anything. That must have been a hellaciously expensive unit. I don't consider that evidence that MCs are reasonably easy to destroy, and neither should anybody else.


Actually, MC can die in one hit just as easily, and in some cases, even easier than vehicles. Force weapons do it very well. And as far as I know, all SM armies can take them. He also has a ven. dread in his 750 point list. Put on a TL Lascannon and I'm not going to last long as it'll be hard to get cover unless I walk it behind my Tyrant. But then, that keeps it out of 6" to support the gants. The reason hes there in the first place.

Librarians stand a pretty slim chance of actually hitting and wounding any MC, especially with their current gimped stats. Mephiston or a GK Grand Master might be able to reliably pop off MCs with their force weapons, but with most other Librarians, running them up against MCs is suicidal. A Chaos player would be in a better position to pull that off, because he could take Thousand Sons squads with Aspiring Sorceror squad leaders. Each squad is essentially a force weapon with 5-10 ablative wounds with 4++ saves. As for Dreadnoughts, even Venerable ones, their odds of accomplishing much against MCs are pretty slim. Sure, they might get one or two shots off, but they're frightfully easy to tarpit, and once any MC gets into close combat, the Dread will get peeled open like a can of tuna. Even a fairly wussy MC like a Tervigon can destroy Dreads in CC with ridiculous ease.

Draconis
17-08-2010, 06:01
Well, the reason the tyrant died easy is because we thought the PF marine got 2 attacks. Even I forgot he wasnt a real "leader" for the squad and only an upgraded marine. But yeah, hitting on a 3+ with re-rolls isnt hard for them to hit every time and then wounding on a 2+ is very likely as well.

As for the mc vs dread arguement, the only way nids are going to reliably kill armor without taking specialized units like zoans or t-fex are to get MC in h2h. Sure stealers can do it with rending, which is still a crapshoot, but thats our only choice. If tervs are considered cheese, a t-fex most certainly would be. As for shooting, there are many, many armies that can spam weapons that can easily kill MCs but not have much of a chance at destroying armor. Missile spam comes to mind immediately. So does plasma. Since most of our MCs are hand to hand, melts count towards this as well.

Yes, I could have taken Zoans in that fight, and they would have very likely wiped both armies out, but that gives me the feeling that I'm tailoring my list to fight my opponents. And I'd probably get accused of doing just that, even though I love my bbb. (big brain bug) Insert the audio from starship troopers.

Billy
17-08-2010, 06:11
Feed that big bug some plasma and watch it die, QUICK. Then the Templars could easily slaughter the little bugs. Just stick to cover/terrain and fill them with bolter fire and laugh as they charge in with no frag grenades.

I can think of Nob bikers with a warboss and a small unit of boys as much more broken at 750.

Laugh at the BT player for his lack of bug killing technique :D

Souleater
17-08-2010, 08:05
The Hive Tyrant dying that easily was a fluke, plain and simple. ....(Tervigon) I don't consider that evidence that MCs are reasonably easy to destroy, and neither should anybody else..

And they would be idiots if they did.

My comment to you was not that this proves they are. It was that despite how quickly they died in the case presented to us you went off on one about the nigh on indestructability of MCs.

Had you opened with "Well, OP, I think the dice really loved you that game." or "Gee, those WG saved you a lot of pain, fella." It might not have come off as so...ranty... :angel:

If you want to discuss vehicle vs MC survivability then start another thread...I also play Necron so I'm aware of the fun in trying to wound MCs with small arms. :D

I've already stated that I think two MCs in such a small game is a tad iffy.

Playing Nids at low level is a game of extremes. What we take either sucks without other supporting units or distorts the game in unpleasant ways e.g. Raveners, Genestealers and the Tervigon

Grand Master Raziel
17-08-2010, 15:01
But yeah, hitting on a 3+ with re-rolls isnt hard for them to hit every time and then wounding on a 2+ is very likely as well.

:eyebrows: How was he hitting on 3+? If memory serves, Accept Any Challenge confers Preferred Enemy, and in this edition Preferred Enemy allows rerolls to hit - which is nothing to sneeze at, but it does pretty much render Chaplains (or at least Litanies of Hate) irrelevant. At best, the PF should have been hitting on 4+ (albiet with the rerolls).


If tervs are considered cheese, a t-fex most certainly would be. As for shooting, there are many, many armies that can spam weapons that can easily kill MCs but not have much of a chance at destroying armor. Missile spam comes to mind immediately. So does plasma. Since most of our MCs are hand to hand, melts count towards this as well.


Well, a T-fex would have at least been a Heavy Support choice, and not allowed you to take a MC as one of your cumpulsory Troops choices. As for spamming weapons that work against MCs but not against armor - krak missiles are, in fact, anti-armor weapons. Not great against Land Raiders or Leman Russes, but they'll do just fine against anything else. As far as plasma goes, it's not that easy for SM players to spam plasma these days without taking expensive specialized units. Chaos Marines, sure, but loyalists of any stripe, not so much. As far as meltas go, in order to get them into range, a SM player has to willingly step into his opponent's charge radius. Often worth doing, sure, but to get enough meltas into position to slag one MC means putting an awful lot of units right where a Nid player would want them.

Draconis
17-08-2010, 18:54
You dont have to spam all melta, or all plasma. Your allowed to mix and match. SM armies have just as much access to plasma pistols and guns. Meltas/plasmas in rhinos still work just fine. Devastator squads will certainly work fine and theres no reason why a full squad wont kill a MC in 2 rounds of shooting. And thats considering they are the only ones in your army shooting. Target priority, fire everything you have thats needed to kill whatever it is that is your biggest threat. Enough lasguns will do it. I've had it happen. Bolters as well.

Draconis
17-08-2010, 19:03
Looking at the BT army, heres what I built for 750 that will do perfectly fine.
Emperor's champion w/black sword and accept any challenge
Crusader squad x10 Melta/p-fist
Crusader Squad x10 Plasma gun/p-fist
Chaplain w/p-fist or power weapon if you dont want to lose his I
Dread with tl Las-Cannon and smoke

Or if your worried about the numers of gants, then switch the melta, since its a close range weapon with a flamer.