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Chem-Dog
14-08-2010, 22:58
It seems to me that any individual Magos is pretty much out for himself, ok they may band together for a common good, or for a share of the benefits of a specific endeavour but mostly they're free to do what they will (with sufficient caution) which leads to my question....

Is it reasonable to assume that there are a variety of schools of thinking within the Adeptus Mechanicus' ruling elite and if so, what major philosophical differences would be likely (or are detailed)?

I can think of a couple of interesting polarising subjects that are fairly specific to the AM such as the true nature of the Machine God, the Emperor, use of Xenos Technology, Research into Thinking Machines and even the use of Bionic enhancment/replacement.

What do you chaps think?

Iracundus
14-08-2010, 23:17
We already know of at least 2 major doctrinal differences:

1) The split from the Dark Mechanicus, which apparently believes that use of warp tech and fusion of warp influenced flesh with machines is acceptable.

2) The split within the Adeptus Mechanicus itself between the secret worshipers of the C'tan Void Dragon and the orthodox Adeptus Mechanicus.


The other split that I find likely is between the Magos Biologis with their focus on the flesh and the rest of the Adeptus Mechanicus that praises more things like steel and other "hard" materials and tech and contempt for the flesh.

There will also likely be lots of factionalism every time any Magos invents or rediscovers technology as the conservative elements attempt to deny it as an acceptable variation of the STC. Eventually even if accepted, any new invention will likely have to be rationalized as an acceptable STC variant even if it never was an original STC design in the first place.

Chem-Dog
15-08-2010, 01:00
Pholosophical

D'oh!


We already know of at least 2 major doctrinal differences:

1) The split from the Dark Mechanicus, which apparently believes that use of warp tech and fusion of warp influenced flesh with machines is acceptable.

2) The split within the Adeptus Mechanicus itself between the secret worshipers of the C'tan Void Dragon and the orthodox Adeptus Mechanicus.


The other split that I find likely is between the Magos Biologis with their focus on the flesh and the rest of the Adeptus Mechanicus that praises more things like steel and other "hard" materials and tech and contempt for the flesh.

There will also likely be lots of factionalism every time any Magos invents or rediscovers technology as the conservative elements attempt to deny it as an acceptable variation of the STC. Eventually even if accepted, any new invention will likely have to be rationalized as an acceptable STC variant even if it never was an original STC design in the first place.

Dark Mechanicus- I could imagine the more, morally "adaptable" Magos would willingly have contact with the Dark Mechanicus, perhaps even exchange information, goods and/or services.

Void Dragon Worship:- Are they aware of what they are doing? I mean do they know it's a C'tan and is probably best for everyone invloved if it were just fired into the nearest black hole?
Regardless of how willingly they may change their alleigance, how does this worship manifest?

Magos Biologis Vs Magos Alchemys/Mineralogicus/Metalurgicus (?):- I see a Magos (higher ranking ones, of course) as flitting freely between disciplines as suits his need, so although a Biologis might be specialised in vat growing limbs or something he wouldn't feel constrained to work in just that field. Any Magos would be a polymath by today's standards, without the addition of memory engrams and so on.

Factionalisation through (re)discovery:- Yes, I thought this too. Arkhan Land would be a perfect example, some would follow his example closely becoming intimately familiar with the constructs he uncovered and possibly making pilgrimmages to the Librarium Omnis.
Indeed I could Imagine these "Landists" to be amongst the most vocal about the variants of his discoveries that are put into use (in favour, of course, it extends the legacy of their hero).

MrSatan
15-08-2010, 01:13
AFAIK yes, reading up the most hardcore magos's alter themselves to apply to a different school of thought such as massive guns or close combat blades. Same applies to their respective skitarii. Apart from conflicts of how to make war I can see them arguing about petty things such as who that new STC scrap showing a new alloy should go.

apart from the the void dragon/pure admech has been said.

Lord Asgul
15-08-2010, 01:22
Also isn't there anyone trying to create new technology? Like Adept Zeth from Mechanicus.

Chem-Dog
15-08-2010, 01:37
I would definitely think "innovators" would be a fairly deviant philisophical group by the AM's standards.

Iracundus
15-08-2010, 01:53
"Innovators" would likely have to couch their discoveries as "rediscoveries" of what the ancients knew, just as new designs are inserted into the STC mythos even if they were perhaps never STC designs in the first place. In the retrospective looking back to the Golden Age type thinking of the Adeptus Mechanicus, to claim you discovered something the ancients never did would be seen as hubris. The dogma of the Adeptus Mechanicus holds the idea of an intact STC as a holy grail, being the sum total of all knowledge (or all knowledge worth knowing).



Void Dragon Worship:- Are they aware of what they are doing? I mean do they know it's a C'tan and is probably best for everyone invloved if it were just fired into the nearest black hole?
Regardless of how willingly they may change their alleigance, how does this worship manifest?

They may not know it as a C'tan and merely as an incredibly technologically advanced being, perhaps an avatar of the Machine God. To that end they may reject the idea of the Emperor as Omnissiah and instead perhaps view the Void Dragon as the Omnissiah. Of course, the orthodox Adeptus Mechanicus would view it as filthy misleading xenos tech instead. As described in the Necron Codex, the worship seems to manifest in the sacrifice of lives to the sacrophagus of the dormant Void Dragon. Abaddon's daemonic scrying reveals the souls are let loose into the warp and the daemons feast on it.

Hellebore
15-08-2010, 02:04
Wasn't there a division due to the interpretation of xenos tech?

I'm thinking of the Inquisitor AdMech article and/or the AdMech characters released for Inquisitor.

The idea was whether, as knowledge, xenos tech was part of the machine god's plan, or whether because it was produced by aliens it was corrupt and not true technology but a blasphemy.

Hellebore

Iracundus
15-08-2010, 02:06
Wasn't there a division due to the interpretation of xenos tech?

I'm thinking of the Inquisitor AdMech article and/or the AdMech characters released for Inquisitor.

The idea was whether, as knowledge, xenos tech was part of the machine god's plan, or whether because it was produced by aliens it was corrupt and not true technology but a blasphemy.

Hellebore

Yes there is such a division. The orthodox, "puritan" faction of the Adeptus Mechanicus view only human tech, specifically human tech derived from the STC, as holy and worth knowing. Xenos tech is viewed as corruptions of the Machine God's knowledge and technology or as temptations and lies to lead the faithful astray.

DantesInferno
15-08-2010, 02:39
Wasn't there a division due to the interpretation of xenos tech?

I'm thinking of the Inquisitor AdMech article and/or the AdMech characters released for Inquisitor.

The idea was whether, as knowledge, xenos tech was part of the machine god's plan, or whether because it was produced by aliens it was corrupt and not true technology but a blasphemy.

Hellebore

I can't find the document on the GW website any more, so I've attached it for everyone's convenience.

N0-1_H3r3
15-08-2010, 20:48
As part of my work on Rogue Trader, I created a few philosophies of Genetors/Magos Biologis for the text of the Genetor alternate rank. The relevant paragraph is copied below:

"Three distinct philosophies exist amongst the Calixis Sector’s Genetors. The first and oldest is the Primus Humanum which espouses the purity of the human form as a vessel for knowledge, viewing the Emperor’s form as that of the ideal human and that of the perfect vessel for knowledge. The second and presently most dominant amongst the Genetors of the Lathes are collectively known as Apexists, believing that adversity breeds strength in the organic, and that the perfect organism is the one that has overcome every rival and every challenge; the philosophy itself is an adaptation of the writings of an ancient pre-Imperial scholar. The third philosophy, currently gaining favour amongst more widely-travelled Genetors and causing concern amongst more traditional Genetors, are the Companions of Vogel, whose leader, Heydrich Vogel, returned from a century-long expedition into the Koronus Expanse and began preaching a creed of forced genetic and biological augmentation in order to strengthen humanity for the troubles ahead. Some believe that Vogel’s ideology verges upon heresy, its suggestion that humanity is somehow insufficient in its current state seen by many as being a blasphemy in its own right."

Vikingkingq
15-08-2010, 21:24
There's also the split between those who accept the Emperor as the Omnissiah and those who don't.

I forget the source for this, but here are the core Mysteries and Warnings of the Cult Mechanicus:
The Mysteries.

1. Life is directed motion
2. The spirit is the spark of life
3. Sentience is the ability to learn the value of knowledge.
4. Intellect is the understanding of knowledge.
5. Sentience is the basest form of Intellect.
6. Understanding is the True Path to Comprehension.
7. Comprehension is the key to all things.
8. The Omnissiah knows all, comprehends all.

The Warnings

9. The alien mechanism is a perversion of the true path.
10. The soul is the conscience of sentience.
11. A soul can be bestowed only by the Omnissiah.
12. The Soulless sentience is the enemy of all.
13. The knowledge of the ancients stands beyond question.
14. The machine spirit guards the knowledge of the ancients.
15. Flesh is fallible, but ritual honours the machine spirit.
16. To break with ritual is to break with faith.

Chem-Dog
15-08-2010, 22:19
"Innovators" would likely have to couch their discoveries as "rediscoveries" of what the ancients knew, just as new designs are inserted into the STC mythos even if they were perhaps never STC designs in the first place. In the retrospective looking back to the Golden Age type thinking of the Adeptus Mechanicus, to claim you discovered something the ancients never did would be seen as hubris. The dogma of the Adeptus Mechanicus holds the idea of an intact STC as a holy grail, being the sum total of all knowledge (or all knowledge worth knowing).

Or it's possible that these innovators would simply keep their new designs or processes secret, much the same as you'd imagine a Magos working with Xenos tech to hide that away.


They may not know it as a C'tan and merely as an incredibly technologically advanced being, perhaps an avatar of the Machine God. To that end they may reject the idea of the Emperor as Omnissiah and instead perhaps view the Void Dragon as the Omnissiah.

Got it, filthy xenos worshipping, emperor denouncing scum.


Of course, the orthodox Adeptus Mechanicus would view it as filthy misleading xenos tech instead. As described in the Necron Codex, the worship seems to manifest in the sacrifice of lives to the sacrophagus of the dormant Void Dragon. Abaddon's daemonic scrying reveals the souls are let loose into the warp and the daemons feast on it.

I may be missing the point here, but how does Daemon feeding sacrifice help the Void Dragon? Or is that the point, it's totally unaware of their efforts?
Does the Dragon have any communication on any level with it's "followers".


Wasn't there a division due to the interpretation of xenos tech?

I'm thinking of the Inquisitor AdMech article and/or the AdMech characters released for Inquisitor.

The idea was whether, as knowledge, xenos tech was part of the machine god's plan, or whether because it was produced by aliens it was corrupt and not true technology but a blasphemy.

Hellebore

According to the PDF link posted by DantesInferno, you're spot on the money.


I can't find the document on the GW website any more, so I've attached it for everyone's convenience.

You, sir are a gentleman and a scholar. My thanks.


As part of my work on Rogue Trader, I created a few philosophies of Genetors/Magos Biologis for the text of the Genetor alternate rank. The relevant paragraph is copied below:

"Three distinct philosophies exist amongst the Calixis Sector’s Genetors. The first and oldest is the Primus Humanum which espouses the purity of the human form as a vessel for knowledge, viewing the Emperor’s form as that of the ideal human and that of the perfect vessel for knowledge. The second and presently most dominant amongst the Genetors of the Lathes are collectively known as Apexists, believing that adversity breeds strength in the organic, and that the perfect organism is the one that has overcome every rival and every challenge; the philosophy itself is an adaptation of the writings of an ancient pre-Imperial scholar. The third philosophy, currently gaining favour amongst more widely-travelled Genetors and causing concern amongst more traditional Genetors, are the Companions of Vogel, whose leader, Heydrich Vogel, returned from a century-long expedition into the Koronus Expanse and began preaching a creed of forced genetic and biological augmentation in order to strengthen humanity for the troubles ahead. Some believe that Vogel’s ideology verges upon heresy, its suggestion that humanity is somehow insufficient in its current state seen by many as being a blasphemy in its own right."

Your work on Rogue Trader....What, you actually asisted with the production of that most holy of tomes?!
Those three examples are smack bang in sync with the kind of thing I was thinking.
I'm especially liking the idea of a group of thought that resists the notion that augmetics are essential to the calling, at least to the degree that they'll wait till something drops off before replacing it, so things like Autosanguination and the Rite of pure thought would be uncommon within their ranks.


There's also the split between those who accept the Emperor as the Omnissiah and those who don't.

I forget the source for this, but here are the core Mysteries and Warnings of the Cult Mechanicus:


All there in the PDF DantesInferno posted, I suspect that's the source you got it from :D

So moving on from the question "do they" to which the answer, I think, is a resounding YES, is the slightly more tricky question of How does this Manifest itself in the practices of the Magi?

Obviously I've touched on this a little with "Radical" Magi secreting their less acceptable efforts out of the way of prying eyes, possibly even secret sub languages within these little Cadres. A dedicated internal policing agency within the Mechanicus tasked with rooting out the less savoury factions (an AM Inquisition).
It's been mentioned elsewhere that the Skitarii are constructed and equipped according to character of the owning Magos so it stands to reason his Philosophy will be imprinted upon his soldiers. To use N0-1_H3r3's post as an example, the Primus Humanum would tend towards largely unaugmented Skitarii, concentrating on equipping and training them the best way possible whereas Apexists would perhaps enact some simple selection process based upon a rigourous training regime to weed out all but the fittest (repairing them as needed) and the Companions of Vogel would tend towards heavily augmented troops from the get-go, perhaps bypassing Skitarii altogether and relying entirely on Praetorians.
How does this sound?

Kage2020
15-08-2010, 22:22
Fans have suggested as much back in the day with the "Philosophies of the Adeptus Mechanicus." Some of the same kind of concepts showed up subsequently in other publications, but no substantial work has been done in quite some time...

Kage

Chem-Dog
16-08-2010, 03:00
Fans have suggested as much back in the day with the "Philosophies of the Adeptus Mechanicus." Some of the same kind of concepts showed up subsequently in other publications, but no substantial work has been done in quite some time...

Kage

I googled* "Philosophies of the Adeptus Mechanicus" but all I got was this thread, is there any way to have a gander at this work?

*Google is the name of my data drone servo-skull :D


+++ EDIT
I've just realised this is a thread about the AM and not used the appropriate smiley yet...for shame!
:chrome::chrome::chrome:
There, fixed!

The Judge
16-08-2010, 07:59
The Dark Heresy RPG has a radical group called the Logicians, which are innovators and inventors of the worst kind. Although not purely AdMech, they do have a large number of rogue techpriests and such in their ranks.

Lord Damocles
16-08-2010, 08:09
I may be missing the point here, but how does Daemon feeding sacrifice help the Void Dragon? Or is that the point, it's totally unaware of their efforts?
'In the shade of Terra, beneath the mountains of mist, there is a new type of death. A sacrifice of men, but the precious souls are not consumed, they are cast adrift. Many are the daemons that wait like carrion to feast on the leavings from this rich table'.
'Visions of the Sleeping God' in Codex: Necrons, pg.26

It would seem that the 'life force' of the sacrifices is fed to the Dragon, but the souls are left un-used and picked up by daemons. (That or the Dragon is a really messy eater...)

Whether the 'sacrifice of men' actually takes place on Mars though, is up for debate. Mechanicum (pg.344) shows that there was a feeding mechanism for the Dragon in the Noctis Labyrinth, but we know nothing of any such arrangements post-Heresy.
It's possible that the 'unimaginable energy' flowing into the sarcophagus [presumably the Dragon's sarcophagus] which the Vision Abaddon and Zaraphiston recieve in Codex: Necrons shows is comming from off-word. Where does the 'life force' gathered by the Annihilator in 'Phobos Worked in Adamant' go, for example?



Does the Dragon have any communication on any level with it's "followers".
The main problem when it comes to questions of the Dragon and any followers which it might have is that the only direct reference to the Cult of the Dragon is from the time of the Horus Heresy (Mechanicum, pg.252) - and even then, the information given is only from an in-universe character (and from what we learn later on in the book, Rho-mu 31's information may not be all that reliable).

According to Semyon, '...from the Dragon's dreams came the first machines of the priests of Mars' (Mechanicum, pg.363), and the Guardian [of the Dragon] can apparently 'hear' the Dragon in it's prison (Mechanicum, pg.362) which would imply that there was a certain level of communication at one point (although whether the Guardian(s) would be counted as 'followers' is debatable). Again the current state of any communication is unknown.


Extra Dragon/Cult-related tidbit:
'...upon his forhead she saw a shining electoo of a diminishing spiral with a stylised set of wings to either side.
The mark of the Dragon'.
(Mechanicum, pg.345)

Kage2020
16-08-2010, 12:23
I googled* "Philosophies of the Adeptus Mechanicus" but all I got was this thread, is there any way to have a gander at this work?
It was another one of those discussion threads that bought the farm with Portent and, later, on the Anargo forums. I'll check the databases when I get home and see if I can come up with the original information and will post it in the thread.

Kage

Easy E
16-08-2010, 12:49
I can't find the document on the GW website any more, so I've attached it for everyone's convenience.


Thank you. I have been looking for that for ages!

Vikingkingq
16-08-2010, 18:56
The Dark Heresy RPG has a radical group called the Logicians, which are innovators and inventors of the worst kind. Although not purely AdMech, they do have a large number of rogue techpriests and such in their ranks.

Altho part of the reason that they are considered heretics isn't that they are inventing per se, but that their credo says that investigation and experiment should not be limited at all, for any reason- whereas the Cult proper acknowledges certain things from the Dark Age of Technology are not acceptable (A.Is, Warp-powered technology, gholams, etc).

Chem-Dog
16-08-2010, 20:28
Whether the 'sacrifice of men' actually takes place on Mars though, is up for debate. Mechanicum (pg.344) shows that there was a feeding mechanism for the Dragon in the Noctis Labyrinth, but we know nothing of any such arrangements post-Heresy.

It does kinda hint that the whole arrangement will stay unaltered for a very long time....


The main problem when it comes to questions of the Dragon and any followers which it might have is that the only direct reference to the Cult of the Dragon is from the time of the Horus Heresy (Mechanicum, pg.252) - and even then, the information given is only from an in-universe character (and from what we learn later on in the book, Rho-mu 31's information may not be all that reliable).


According to Semyon, '...from the Dragon's dreams came the first machines of the priests of Mars' (Mechanicum, pg.363), and the Guardian [of the Dragon] can apparently 'hear' the Dragon in it's prison (Mechanicum, pg.362) which would imply that there was a certain level of communication at one point (although whether the Guardian(s) would be counted as 'followers' is debatable). Again the current state of any communication is unknown.


So we're sticking to the "influenced in their sleep" type logic for now then?



Extra Dragon/Cult-related tidbit:
'...upon his forhead she saw a shining electoo of a diminishing spiral with a stylised set of wings to either side.
The mark of the Dragon'.
(Mechanicum, pg.345)

Looks liek I really need to read Mechanicum again.


It was another one of those discussion threads that bought the farm with Portent and, later, on the Anargo forums. I'll check the databases when I get home and see if I can come up with the original information and will post it in the thread.

Kage

Cheers :D

Kage2020
16-08-2010, 22:36
Cheers :D
The preliminary file (it was to be expanded) was:




==Factions, philosophies and paradigms==

The Cult Mechanicus is an ancient and vast community, spread over the entire Imperium. Reflecting this, a number of political factions are present in the Adeptus Mechanicus, dating as far back as the Age of Strife. These political factions are a result of the relative independence of the Adeptus Mechanicus, and its relation with the Imperium, and can be divided into four broad categories. A number of different philosophies have also formed over the millennia, each with its own view on the purpose of the Adeptus Mechanicus and its own approach to technology.

The philosophies of the Adeptus Mechanicus can be divided into puritan philosophies, which generally stay true to the established principles and beliefs of the Adeptus Mechanicus, and radical philosophies, which seek change and differ greatly from the current philosophies of the Cult Mechanicus. Of these, the puritan philosophies are held high by the great majority of the Tech Priests, in all corners of the Imperium.

The most widely spread puritan philosophy is the Primist philosophy. Followers of this philosophy believe that the ancient belief systems of the Adeptus Mechanicus should be adhered to. This includes those dogmatic structures that developed before the Cult Mechanicus was introduced into the nascent Imperium. The main teaching of the Primists is that technical and mechanical knowledge is the sole province of the Machine God and their physical representatives, the Tech Priests. They resist the development of all local infrastructures since this places technology in the hands of the plebs and the non-believers. At the very least, all advanced forms of technology, including xenos-tech, is the sole preserve of the Cult Mechanicus.


Similar to the Primist philosophy, the Traditionalist philosophy teaches that the knowledge gained in the past is the only true form of understanding. Supporters of this philosophy resist the incorporation of new technologies even when derived from newly acquired STC documentation, and of the further integration of the Adeptus Mechanicus into the Adeptus Terra. Paradoxically, they are also the greatest exponents to the understanding of relic technology.

A philosophy quite different from the two largest philosophies, the Traditionalist and the Primist, is the Questor philosophy. Adherents to this philosophy believe that the STC represents another embodiment of the Machine God and, as such, scour the galaxy for working copies and related information. Xenos-tech is abhorred since it sullies the concept of the STC as the omega-point of Human, and therefore universal, knowledge.

Opposing the three major puritan philosophies, are the many radical philosophies. The radical philosophies vary greatly in popularity, values and age, but of the countless different philosophies, the following four are arguably the most important, considering their growing influence across the entire Imperium.

The Reincarnist philosophy is a fairly ancient philosophy, born shortly after the Horus Heresy. A radical off-shoot of the Questor philosophy, the Reincarnists believe that the STC as an embodiment of the Machine God is capable of reincarnating the Omnissiah. Through Him the followers of philosophy will experience the omega-point of knowledge. Interestingly, some small off-shoots of the Reincarnist philosophy have been speculated to have connections with the puritan Thorian philosophy of the Inquisition.

A second, and younger philosophy, is the Visionary philosophy, a strange philosophy unusual in that it developed from the collegium genetos. It is the belief of the Visionaries that the Omnissiah meddled directly with human development in the Dark Age of Technology and the Age of Strife. Within the very building blocks of Humanity the Emperor has encoded the STC, as evidenced by the Adeptus Astarters, mirrors of the transcendent core of this knowledge of Humanity itself.

The Xenite philosophy, though having existed since the very first contact with alien species, has only earned significant influence in the recent millennia. The main teaching of this philosophy is that knowledge derives from many sources, not just human thought. As such they advocate the study of xenos-tech and the incorporation of any information derived from such study into the Holy Altar and the teachings of the Cult Mechanicus. The Xenite philosophy is often mistaken for the Xenophile philosophy, an even more radical philosophy in the Cult Mechanicus.

Xenophiles expand upon the Xenite philosophy to state that alien knowledge, and particularly that of the older races, is preferred over that of humanity. Indeed, all human knowledge is just a reflection of xenos technology. Adherents to the Xenophile philosophy are among the most despised of all radical Adeptus Mechanicus philosophies, and are viewed with equal scorn by organisations outside the Adeptus Mechanicus. Indeed, the Ordo Xenos of the Inquisition keeps a close eye on Tech Priests with such affection for alien knowledge, and some of the more puritan Inquisitors have been known to actively hunt down and execute this group of Tech Priests.

Being a substantial part of the immense political machine that is the Imperium, the Adeptus Mechanicus is itself, as a result, divided by various political factions. Though the politics of the Adeptus Mechanicus vary from one side of the Imperium to the other, four broad categories can be used to describe the majority of political factions in the Adeptus Mechanicus.

The first of these four is the Integrationist group. This is the body of thought that wishes to see greater integration between the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Imperium, including a greater sharing of the technology with the other organisations in the Imperium, and distributing technology on lower levels. Typically, the integrationists feel that the complexity and bureaucracy of the Imperium, coupled with the squabbling of power between its organisations, hinders mankind in reaching its ideal. Followers of this political opinion are usually noted as notably cooperative with all other Imperial organisations, and even go as far as demanding cooperation from them.

A second group known as the Isolationist group distance themselves from the Integrationistic stance, and advocate the maintenance of distance between the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Adeptus terra. Basically, the Isolationists feel that the Adeptus Mechanicus should function independently, and act as a powerful ally of the Imperium, rather than a part of it. With independent government, the Adeptus Mechanicus can use its wisdom and knowledge to better help the Imperium, and itself.

The third group is the group called Separationists, which wish to remove the Adeptus Mechanicus from the Adeptus Terra, and to some degree, the Imperium. Unlike the Isolationists, the Separationists often consider the Adeptus Mechanicus equal and in some ways superior to the Imperium, and claim that by cutting its bonds with the Imperium, the Cult Mechanicus can best serve humanity. The extreme Separationists even envision a new age of Man, where all of humanity is united under the Machine God, defeating all enemies with the invincible unity of Man and Machine.

Last and largest of the four political groups in the Adeptus Mechanicus, is the Conservatives. Upholding the status quo, this group believes that any change of political stance would be ultimately destructive to the goals of the Adeptus Mechanicus.

===The Paradigms of the Adeptus Mechanicus===

Three major paradigms exist within the Priesthood of the Cult Mechanicus, which have had great influence on the entirety of the Adeptus Mechanicus over the past millennium. All three of these paradigms are separate communities, each with a unique set of assumptions, concepts, values, and practices that constitute/dictate the political standing and philosophical adherence of their members. The greatest and oldest of these paradigms is the Methodists.

The philosophy of the Methodists is a fairly conservative one, common on the forgeworlds of the Imperium. To the Methodists, victory for mankind can only come by continuing the war and staying true to the ways of the Imperium. The war against the enemies of Man cannot be won overnight, but will come after ages of bloodshed, careful research and hard work. The Methodists strive to uphold the traditions of the Adeptus Mechanicus, and are wary of change, and use their research to improve the technology that the Imperium masters already, claiming that spending time and resources researching new and experimental technology is far too risky in such times.

The second major paradigm, the Unionists, is similar to the Methodists in many ways, but differs in their religious beliefs, and is considered by the most venerable Methodists to be too radical and na´ve in its scientific approach. The members of this paradigm hold that the Emperor and the Machine God are one, and desire greater unity between the Adeptus Mechanicus and the rest of the Imperium. Victory, the unionists claim, will be accomplished through faith, reason and zeal, and many unionists claim that the Adeptus Mechanicus should be even more zealous in their search for STC technology. Researching how the powers of the Emperor can be harnessed in the fight for survival of the Imperium, the Unionists are known to do much experimenting with holy weaponry such as psycannon technology and anointed weapons.

Directly opposing the Unionists, are the Separatists. The Separatists do not recognise the divinity of the Emperor, nor do they wish to be united with the failing Imperium. The Separatists believe more than anything else that knowledge is power, and claim that the Imperium is slowing the advance of the Machine Cult. Only by distancing the Adeptus Mechanicus from the rest of the Imperium, can the Priesthood unlock the secrets needed to defeat the enemies of man, and rebuild the civilisation of man in the image of the Machine God. The Separatists are notoriously protective of their knowledge and findings, and some have even speculated that they desire to separate themselves from the Adeptus Mechanicus itself, to accomplish their goals.
Not much to go on at the moment but, again, it was to be expanded when there was some more concrete information to be found on the Adeptus Mechanicus. Please also understand that, IIRC, it predates Thorpe's article...

Kage

baphomael
16-08-2010, 23:26
I can well imagine sects that actively pursue innovation. The core 'cause' of the AdMech is the 'Quest for Knowledge' - the Admech believe all knowledge already exists, its just a matter of rediscovering it. Largely, this involves Explorator fleets looking to rediscover STC templates (and the Holy Grail, a fully functioning STC generator).

However, I could fully imagine sects within the Cult Mechanicus that view 'innovation' and 'invention' as divinely inspired - a kind of sect of AdMech 'mystics' that attempt to commune and receive revelation directly from the Machine God/Omnissiah - kinda grimdark 40k pseudo-gnostic-hermeticist-mysticism or something.

Noon
20-08-2010, 04:08
some things

Lord Damocles . . . do the C'tan worshipers have any relations with the necrons themselves? Do they understand the connection between the Dragon and the necrons? Do they seek out tomb worlds? Maybe to try to make contact, or out of some other misguided impulse? Or of course, to find C'tan tech...

I've disliked necrons for a long time, but now something about their fluff is finally drawing me into it... The models, still, are not great :o

Lord Damocles
20-08-2010, 18:32
Lord Damocles . . . do the C'tan worshipers have any relations with the necrons themselves? Do they understand the connection between the Dragon and the necrons? Do they seek out tomb worlds? Maybe to try to make contact, or out of some other misguided impulse? Or of course, to find C'tan tech...
There's no evidence that the Cult of the Dragon - or similar - have any direct contact with Necrons. Mainly due to there being next to no information available regarding the Cult (if it even still exists in M41).


Some relevant quotes etc.:

'The Messenger [Deciever] has living followers once more amoung the ranks of the Adeptus Mechanicus, and with them has gathered many pariahs to become it's new slaves.'
Codex: Necrons, pg.31
Of course, we don't know if the 'living followers' know of the true nature of the Deciever, or even whether they know that they're not serving the purposes of the Mechanicus.

'Witch Hunters would fight Necrons because:
...
A group of humans are fighting on the side of the Necrons. Perhaps they are simply enslaved, but perhaps they are some form of 'proto-pariah', a new troop type whose transformation is not yet complete. It is essential the Ordo Hereticus discovers the truth.'
Codex: Witch Hunters, pg.43
Although it's not clear if the 'narrative hooks' presented are anything more than just ideas. 'Proto-pariahs' may not actually exist.

'The Necron Threat' from Warhammer Monthly 64 details human [death] cults who specifically worship Necrons (as a physical manifestation of death). While the text makes mention of similar cults on a variety of worlds near to planets which feature a known [active] Necron presence, there is no evidence that the cults are in direct contact with Necrons; or even each other.

Tech-Adept Uvochi (Codex: Necrons, pg.49) is accused of 'techno-heresy, the employment of the black arts, inter alia Technologica Excommunicate, unclean worship of xenolore and traffic with proscribed texts*'. He appears to have knowledge of the Noctis labyrinth, the Necrons, C'tan ('I have seen the face of god'), and the Gates of Varl. He claims that, '...there are more of us than you can imagine. Many more'. But is Uvochi to be trusted?
*Corteswain's writings? (Nightbringer) the Apocacrypta of the Nightbringer? (Dawn of War: Ascension) the Book of the Dragon? (Mechanicum) or something else entirely? (Titanicus)

'Radical Adeptus Mechanicus Tech Priest
The wonders and lure of the necrontyr are sometimes simply too much for some members of the Adeptus Mechanicus. Lured by the purity of the Necrons, they become obsessed with the xenos technology.
To those ready to embrace the C'tan as gods, the rewards in technology are great indeed. However to their former colleagues, they are the ultimate traitors against the Machine God of Mars.'
Medusa V: End Game, 'The Herald's Host'
That's more like it! Although the Priests in question are specifically those from the Edethor's Mouth region of Medusa V. It's not clear if radical Priest - Necron co-operation is a more widespread practice.

/Off topic

Noon
21-08-2010, 02:47
Wow. Killer. Thanks so much for that. Some fun ideas...