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View Full Version : What is a "power scroll suicide mage"?



Venerable_Bede
15-08-2010, 01:57
I've seen this term used, but don't understand what it is?

Help please.

Thanks.

RanaldLoec
15-08-2010, 02:58
A level 1 or 2 wizard, with a power scroll meaning one use and any double counts as irresistible force. The player then throws 6 dice at the spell usually a big unit killer like the final transformation or the purple sun of xerces!!? (i can't spell it).

Some times wizard will of charged the Target of the spell if it can be cast into combat.

The spell will usually go off with IF the wizard then miscasts and possible causes the enemy unit in contact him to take further damage from the miscast result.

The wizard if he survives will die in the next round but usually having done a lot of damage.

shakedown47
15-08-2010, 05:25
It's a tactic that cheeseball players use when they want to WAAC in disregard for the established fluff on how rare a magic user is in the Warhammer world. Avoid these people, mutually fun games do not interest them.

fastcarfreak
15-08-2010, 08:04
It's a tactic that cheeseball players use when they want to WAAC in disregard for the established fluff on how rare a magic user is in the Warhammer world. Avoid these people, mutually fun games do not interest them.

I completely disagree with you... For 1, the magic item is not that great. Yes, it has its uses, but is not the end all be all... For 2, if you take the magic item, you have to pretty much be prepared to take some damage or lose your character... It's not like you could take the item any other way. It literally is the only way to take it. By your logic, you are saying anyone who takes the item is a "cheeseball", which is just not true...

lordlorien
15-08-2010, 09:32
Well I am pretty sure that that combination (well or rather the Power Scroll) will be the first general available item being banned at every tourney with restriction rules for army lists.

Gatsby
15-08-2010, 11:38
power scroll suicide mage's are giving magic based armies a bad name

Tastyfish
15-08-2010, 11:38
Its far too expensive to be anything more than a surprise manoeuvre or a last ditch attempt (and wizards channeling excessive power in order to cause an explosion that will probably kill them in order to hold off against impossible odds certainly has precedent in fantasy).

It requires a lone wizard (with the right spell, requiring the level 2 upgrade, a lord and a second level 2 to guarantee it), successfully charging a suitable enemy unit and then getting enough power dice in the magic phase. Plus you've either got to have him on his own on the charge or decimate more of your own troops than the enemy (since they'll only be hit by about 2/5ths of the large template at best)

chivalrous
15-08-2010, 11:51
It's a tactic that cheeseball players use when they want to WAAC in disregard for the established fluff on how rare a magic user is in the Warhammer world. Avoid these people, mutually fun games do not interest them.

I'll politely disagree. For Skaven and Dark Elves I see no reason why a Warlock or a low ranking Sorceress might not be bullied into this tactic by a higher ranking Rat/Elf. The Skaven just don't care about the lives of each other and I think there's enough in the army books to suggest that Dark Elves aren't above killing each other to suit their own self interest.

As for WAAC, no, there are some occasions where a tactic such as this is viable:
When facing a horde army with an opposing army that has very few models and need to whittle down their opponents.
When facing Teclis and you need Fate of Bjuna to get through and box him ;)
Elves vs. Steamtanks

I'll also add that in order to pull off this tactic and guarantee that the suicide wizard gets the intended spell, you have to sink a lot of points into another 5 levels of wizard. That's not cheap, and will guarantee that your army is going to suffer, in terms of number, when facing those aforementioned hordes.
That Uber spell of Doom will effectively become a one use only spell. The suicide mage will likely die horribly, but on top of this, they will also be unable to cast the spell without the scroll trigger.

Tastyfish
15-08-2010, 12:26
7 levels of magic actually (including upgrading the suicide wizard to level 2) - both the suicide wizard, a second level 2 and the level 4 may all have the basic spell. This is the minimum level of magic to guarantee a (non-signature) spell

Otherwise, the extra 5 levels of magic could be split among 5 level 1s who all rolled the signature spell.

Lord Zarkov
15-08-2010, 14:00
Otherwise, the extra 5 levels of magic could be split among 5 level 1s who all rolled the signature spell.
If you're choosing a rulebook lore then you can't roll the signature spell...

Tastyfish
15-08-2010, 14:06
Fair enough, I've actually seen this mostly come up as a way of getting WAAAGH! off when you needed it (which requires more wizards). Yet to play with the rulebook lores.

Magister_Ordo_Lyrae
15-08-2010, 20:15
If your going to do this I think the best way would be LV1 fire mage with some sort of mobility (mount of some sort) to get you close enough.

Take the signature spell fireball use the fully powered version that does 3d6 S4 hits (your rolling 6 dice at aren't you? even if by some random chance you don't roll a double (not getting your IF and miscast suicide bomb) your odds of making the casting value are still pretty good.

This is probably the most reliably useful way of using this tactic to cause damage. probably best with cheap mages with access to fire (empire comes to mind).

Still doesn't appeal to me.

russellmoo
15-08-2010, 20:26
I'm not sure if this tactic is "cheese", however, it does seem to be in the opposite spirit in which the magic rules were written. The miscast table was meant to deter players from throwing all of their dice at a single spell, not as another way to cause damage to your opponent. Hence, while legal is against the intent of the rules.

chivalrous
15-08-2010, 21:13
I'm not sure if this tactic is "cheese", however, it does seem to be in the opposite spirit in which the magic rules were written. The miscast table was meant to deter players from throwing all of their dice at a single spell, not as another way to cause damage to your opponent. Hence, while legal is against the intent of the rules.

Possibly, but again, think about the army using such a tactic, on the one hand it could be the typical Skaven attitude to life and the destruction that such a tactic might achieve.
OR
It could be a last ditch attempt at clawing victory from the jaws of defeat by a desperate Empire General.

kramplarv
15-08-2010, 21:36
I'm not sure if this tactic is "cheese", however, it does seem to be in the opposite spirit in which the magic rules were written. The miscast table was meant to deter players from throwing all of their dice at a single spell, not as another way to cause damage to your opponent. Hence, while legal is against the intent of the rules.

to bad then that the authors of 8th made the new miscast-table to be nothing but non-lethal. Yeah, you take a hit or something.. sometimes. But it is not nearly devestating enough. It should be something like...

2-6 DEAD. Gone. vanished.
7 D3 Wounds+all models within 6" takes one S10 each doing D3 wounds
8-9 wound+all in btb takes one S10 each doing D3 wounds
10-11 Wound+ all in BtB take S6 hit doing D3 wounds
12 - DEAD, all in BTB takes S6 hit doing D6 wound.

or something... :)

OR. should have had 1-1 as a miscast result.

Proctorkorps
15-08-2010, 22:19
yeah but that kind of miscast table would discourage players from using magic entirely, or at least banishing their wizards away (about 7 inches away, preferably) from the safety of all friendly units... not to mention encouraging suicide wizards

Bolter Bait
15-08-2010, 22:31
Interesting tactic-I'll have to keep it in mind so it can be countered if it becomes popular.

Sadly, despite a rather well documented sacrifice from one of their mages, my high elves won't be trying this trick. Far too expensive to ensure a useful spell and far too valuable to sacrifice like this without a gaurantee of absolute victory.

Purple Sun seems like the best spell to use for this, since even if a Misfire! result comes up on the artillery die, the template would be right where you want it. Though would it be worth losing access to that spell for the rest of the game?

What armies are capable of pulling this off best?

Yrrdead
16-08-2010, 01:45
Vampire, Forbidden Lore(Death), Power Scroll, Opal Amulet, Hellsteed

Here you have a flying vamp with purple sun & power scroll with a good chance to come out of a miscast unscathed. Less than 210pts. I've played with it once. And I agree it seems pretty unsporting unless it is a Ard Boyz type environment.

rocdocta
16-08-2010, 05:32
Vampire, Forbidden Lore(Death), Power Scroll, Opal Amulet, Hellsteed

Here you have a flying vamp with purple sun & power scroll with a good chance to come out of a miscast unscathed. Less than 210pts. I've played with it once. And I agree it seems pretty unsporting unless it is a Ard Boyz type environment.

its cheaper and better protected from misile fire if you put him in a unit of dire wolves with a dire dog. this way you get the free march plus the dog can accept the challenges

eyescrossed
16-08-2010, 06:50
Nonononononono, a Vampire with Forbidden Lore: Death, Power Scroll and Talisman of the Lycni in a unit of Ghouls (and another character with Ghoulkin in your army) on the flank of your deployment zone.

March up pregame then March the Vamp out of the unit.

You've moved 26" in the first turn.

Chris_
16-08-2010, 08:07
Nonononononono, a Vampire with Forbidden Lore: Death, Power Scroll and Talisman of the Lycni in a unit of Ghouls (and another character with Ghoulkin in your army) on the flank of your deployment zone.

March up pregame then March the Vamp out of the unit.

You've moved 26" in the first turn.Yeah, nasty combo and you can't really do much to stop it if you don't get the first turn. Even then he will be in a unit of Ghouls and get the 2+ Look out sir! rule. Just lame... Especially against my Tomb Kings where every model has I3 or worse...

eyescrossed
16-08-2010, 09:10
I'd never use it, though. Too unsporting.

WarmbloodedLizard
16-08-2010, 10:40
nothing cheesy about it, just using the horribly designed and badly written BRB rules to your advantage.

(I'm totally in favor of tournaments/groups banning the item and changing a lot of the new 8th ed rules, though.)

Urgat
16-08-2010, 12:52
That new tactic actually pretty much forced me to consider fanatics again. I don't care much about self exploding characters, they're killing a dozen gobs and that's it, but the purple sun from the flank, possibly through my whole battle line, yeah, no thanks. So how about a fanatic (or three) up his face instead?

DisasterMaster
16-08-2010, 20:20
I'll politely disagree. For Skaven and Dark Elves I see no reason why a Warlock or a low ranking Sorceress might not be bullied into this tactic by a higher ranking Rat/Elf. The Skaven just don't care about the lives of each other and I think there's enough in the army books to suggest that Dark Elves aren't above killing each other to suit their own self interest.


This makes sense for dark elves but not skaven. Only grey seers or vermin lord may take the 13th spell, warlocks have no access. Neither of those get bullied arround too often. Also, skaven are the last type of charecter to risk their life for greater glory.

Overall I love the new magic phase, but the suicide mage is obviously taking advantage of the rules. Also everyone you play will hate you unless they are running one too

kramplarv
17-08-2010, 00:17
yeah but that kind of miscast table would discourage players from using magic entirely, or at least banishing their wizards away (about 7 inches away, preferably) from the safety of all friendly units... not to mention encouraging suicide wizards

no. not really. I would still use magic. But I would not throw 6 dice... :)
of course "one" sollution wont fix the problem. the problem is made up of many small tings. every one of them aint that big issue by itself. But when all combines... that's bad.

I like the dice generation, i like spell selection, I like scaling, I like most of the magic rules. But the miscast table is so non-lethal that the drawback of miscasting are minimal compared to what you can achieve.

chivalrous
17-08-2010, 05:40
This makes sense for dark elves but not skaven. Only grey seers or vermin lord may take the 13th spell, warlocks have no access. Neither of those get bullied arround too often. Also, skaven are the last type of charecter to risk their life for greater glory.

Overall I love the new magic phase, but the suicide mage is obviously taking advantage of the rules. Also everyone you play will hate you unless they are running one too

Who says it has to be the 13th Spell? Why not Cracks Call or Scorch?

eyescrossed
17-08-2010, 08:25
Who says it has to be the 13th Spell? Why not Cracks Call or Scorch?

You'd throw 6 dice at those? 0.o