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snaketrap
15-08-2010, 04:07
Spoilers? (it turns out that Horus is the bad guy!)

Okay, so I'm about too finish Galaxy in Flames, and I'm kind of amazed how fast Horus flipped. Not so much that he turned against the Emperor. He clearly had some deep rooted issues that were easy to manipulate. What amazes me is that he went from decent, compassionate and virtuous to cartoonishly evil withing a very, very short period of time.

There are plenty of events in Horus Rising and False Gods that illustrate Horus' inherent decentness and humanity. Even at the climax of the battle of Davin, after he was wounded by the anathema, he still had compassion for the commander who had betrayed him, and was overcome with grief after his death. Yet just a few weeks later he's painting his armor black, grinning as he assassinates diplomats and executing civilian members of the expedition fleet.

So does anyone else feel like Horus went from good to evil way, way to fast? Like he completely skipped any gray areas in between? I was a little disappointed to see such a well made character turn into a cackling super villian without the proper build up.

I was also a little surprised by how willing Maloghurst was to go along with the whole thing. He seemed like a pretty level guy, and while it didn't surprise me that blood thirsty Abbadon or Serghar the dick would be all into the idea of being evil just for the sake of it, Mag actually seemed like a stand up guy. Same with Little Horus. I'm not surprised that they went along with their leader, but I'm kind of amazed they didn't at least question him. After all, their role was to keep Horus honest.

Col. Tartleton
15-08-2010, 06:46
Terrible writing is terrible. As a rule I think they never should have released the books. They should have released the artbook and left it there. They took away mystery and replaced it little better then average Black Library stuff. Maybe release a campaign book through the main channels or forge world.

They didn't make the Primarchs into demi gods. The prose is too weak. They never should have humanized them. They're not human. Neither are marines. They made them fall to plot devices instead of real flaws and cause and effect. They don't explain the things we should have explained and they explain things that cheapens them. Horus should have fallen to his ambition not to a plot device and some voodoo. Same with Fulgrim and such.

The Emperor should have looked... Smart? The Primarchs should have been grander. I'm not asking for Abnett and McNeil and co. to rewrite Frankenstein, but it would be nice if they tried to write literature once in a while.

Rant over. Not really a rant, just a scathing criticism...

Iracundus
15-08-2010, 06:49
Terrible writing is terrible. As a rule I think they never should have released the books. They should have released the artbook and left it there. They took away mystery and replaced it little better then average Black Library stuff. Maybe release a campaign book through the main channels or forge world.

They didn't make the Primarchs into demi gods. The prose is too weak. They never should have humanized them. They're not human. Neither are marines. They made them fall to plot devices instead of real flawed cause and effect. They don't explain the things we should have explained and they explain things that cheapens them. Horus should have fallen to his ambition not to a plot device and some voodoo. Same with Fulgrim and such.

The Emperor should have looked... Smart? The Primarchs should have been grander. I'm not asking for Abnett and McNeil and co. to rewrite Frankenstein, but it would be nice if they tried to write literature once in a while.

What you need is Milton rewriting Paradise Lost, as the Heresy was set up to parallel the fall of the angels. The archaic language adds to the mythic air, though I suppose it would strain the comprehension of some readers. Take the following from Lucifer speaking to the angels, inciting them to rebel:



Will ye submit your necks, and chuse to bend
The supple knee? ye will not, if I trust
To know ye right, or if ye know your selves
Natives and Sons of Heav'n possest before
By none, and if not equal all, yet free,
Equally free; for Orders and Degrees
Jarr not with liberty, but well consist.
Who can in reason then or right assume
Monarchie over such as live by right
His equals, if in power and splendor less,
In freedome equal? -Book 5, Paradise Lost

In essence, Lucifer is claiming the angels have equal freedom to each other as peers and to God and that God's dominion over them is unjust since he overmatches them only in might and power but is equal to them in freedom. Such a line of argument might well be in 40K be taken by Horus to argue for the standing of the Marines (ie the angels) and Primarchs (the archangels) to the Emperor, and their rejection of the Emperor planning to set up a civilian administration, paralleling the rejection of being told to pay homage to the Son by Lucifer and the rebel angels.

In Book 1 of Paradise Lost there is a rationale for the stereotypical evil behavior of Lucifer/Satan as a clear rejection and psychological attack against God, by spiting and doing the exact opposite of divine will in the hopes of disturbing and troubling God:



To do ought good never will be our task,
But ever to do ill our sole delight,
As being the contrary to his high will
Whom we resist. If then his Providence
Out of our evil seek to bring forth good,
Our labour must be to pervert that end,
And out of good still to find means of evil;
Which oft times may succeed, so as perhaps
Shall grieve him, if I fail not, and disturb
His inmost counsels from thir destind aim. - Book 1, Paradise Lost

The same might therefore be said of Horus. His behavior, rather than just being ascribed to being generically "evil" or daemons making him do everything, may be as a calculated rejection of the Emperor's methods, ideals, and as a means of gathering more power to himself.

Col. Tartleton
15-08-2010, 07:13
That's what I'm saying they cheapened it. I referenced Frankenstein because Frankenstein is about Paradise Lost. What is a God's duty to his creations and what are his creations' duties to him? What happens when the creation takes it upon himself to become like the creator? Does he have what it takes, or is he doomed to fail because of his humanity, however suppressed by ambition and his blindness to everything but his obsession, still makes him human?

That's the Emperor failing Horus, Horus failing the Emperor, and Horus failing before he started because he never could have been the Emperor because he simply didn't have it in him to replace the Emperor. He was a man raised on his own power invulnerability which made him callous of lesser men. They should have planted the seeds for his failure on Cthonia. The primarchs need to be shown as something much more then human.

Sanguinius was effectively worshiped by his people. Night Haunter became feared to the point he became viewed as Karma. Vulcan was a living folk hero among his people. Angron was Sparticus, the embodiment of masculine virtue and raw untamed virile sexuality for millions of Desh'eans. Fulgrim was essentially playing Gordon Gekko from day one turning failing companies into profit until he ran an entire planet. Leman Russ defeated the Emperor 2/3 until the Emperor punched an unarmored Leman Russ with a powerfist in the head... Guilleman was like Alexander the Great, Hannible, and Julius Caesar rolled into one man.

These aren't humans by a long shot.

Son of Sanguinius
15-08-2010, 07:38
I find the most logical notion for the Heresy as having been unfortunately tacked on as a footnote.

In human history, we often see cultures forged though military action deal with the conflict between warriors and civilians. While war is being fought, the warriors have the power. When the war is over, the power slowly drifts back to the civilians, or the society fragments because the warriors no longer have an enemy to focus their attentions on. That handing over of authority is difficult for the warriors, and often it is refused.

In 40k, the Primarchs and the Legions were created to be the ultimate military forces in the galaxy. They were created to ensure a victory for the Emperor even against a galaxy of lethal xenos and "blind" human sects. So as the crusade comes to an end, what is to happen to a Space Marine Legion? In a conquered galaxy, what opponent is a Primarch to test himself against? As humanity asserts galactic dominance, what unknown terrors and glories await the fury of the Emperor's armies? The Emperor's finest find themselves without purpose. They are sentient weapons made to crave combat. Take that combat away and the weapon will make its own war against the only thing worthy of its attentions- similar weapons.

They did turn because they hated the Emperor, but they hated the Emperor because they were afraid of a mundane life. They feared a time where there skills were no longer needed and the soil they bled and died for would be turned over to those they believed to be less than themselves. The fear, respect, honor, and love they earned by fighting for mankind would eventually recede and be lost. This was unacceptable. And what did Horus do? Not only did he provide the greatest challenge of their lives, but he promised them to take vengeance from the individual who placed them in such a position. In truth, more of them should have turned.

But sadly, this motivation is only really attributed to Angron, and even there it is dumbed down to "I like Khorne. He lets me throw tantrums and break stuff."

And in the case of Horus, this gets even more personal. In Paradise Lost, I think Lucifer fell because he could not tolerate God loving Man as much or more than he. His love manifested into an obsession with God and ultimately, as obsessive relationships occasionally show, the only cathartic release for Lucifer would be God's destruction. I see Horus as very similar in this respect. Horus loved his father, perhaps more than any of his brothers. Horus, despite all of his ambition, would have been fine standing at the Emperor's side as they ruled and warred. As the Crusade ends and the Council of Terra asserts its own dominance, Horus feels the misgivings described above more than any other. How could his father do this to him? How could he let these petty politicians and fearful delegates rule that which was Horus'? Why couldn't Horus be at the Emperor's side again?

I don't have much hope that GW has thoroughly considered this reasoning. But if they did, the implications are fantastic. How could the Emperor not have seen this coming? Was he so arrogant that he believed his own powers would sway his sons no matter what? Was there something on Earth (in the webway or otherwise) that so demanded his attentions that it was worth the risk of his domain's destruction? Or did the Emperor want this, or something like it, all along?

Something that stuck with me was Dan Abnett's comment about the nature of the Space Wolves in his interview about Prospero Burns. He asks why the Emperor would allow such an elemental and unruly force of destruction like the Wolves of Fenris to exist. His answer is to be able to destroy another Legion. Take from that what you will.

Iracundus
15-08-2010, 08:12
And in the case of Horus, this gets even more personal. In Paradise Lost, I think Lucifer fell because he could not tolerate God loving Man as much or more than he. His love manifested into an obsession with God and ultimately, as obsessive relationships occasionally show, the only cathartic release for Lucifer would be God's destruction. I see Horus as very similar in this respect. Horus loved his father, perhaps more than any of his brothers. Horus, despite all of his ambition, would have been fine standing at the Emperor's side as they ruled and warred. As the Crusade ends and the Council of Terra asserts its own dominance, Horus feels the misgivings described above more than any other. How could his father do this to him? How could he let these petty politicians and fearful delegates rule that which was Horus'? Why couldn't Horus be at the Emperor's side again?

The problem with the Heresy books is the resorting to the "Chaos artifact made me do it" tactic, rather than dwelling more on the choices and rationales of the Primarchs. They come off less tragic and more just stupid dupes if they're just being manipulated like puppets by evil artifacts/daemons.



I don't have much hope that GW has thoroughly considered this reasoning. But if they did, the implications are fantastic. How could the Emperor not have seen this coming? Was he so arrogant that he believed his own powers would sway his sons no matter what? Was there something on Earth (in the webway or otherwise) that so demanded his attentions that it was worth the risk of his domain's destruction? Or did the Emperor want this, or something like it, all along?

The Emperor POV story in the old Realms of Chaos show the Emperor could not see beyond the Heresy and still found it difficult to come to grips with the magnitude of the betrayal. Thus the Emperor does not appear to have planned or foreseen this, though afterwards pro-Imperial historians and religious writers may certainly have wanted to portray the omniscience of the Emperor.

The Emperor though powerful has certainly never been portrayed objectively as omnipotent or omniscient despite the beliefs of the characters within 40K. It is entirely reasonable to think he did not anticipate the speed or magnitude of such a rebellion. He may have been lulled into complacency by the speed and success of the Great Crusade. Though with incidents such as Lorgar's reprimand and the trouble with Magnus, the Emperor might have anticipated a rebellion of a Legion in isolation, but not the rapid subversion and rebellion of multiple Legions in quick succession.




Something that stuck with me was Dan Abnett's comment about the nature of the Space Wolves in his interview about Prospero Burns. He asks why the Emperor would allow such an elemental and unruly force of destruction like the Wolves of Fenris to exist. His answer is to be able to destroy another Legion. Take from that what you will.

However one might say the same of some of the other more savage Legions like the Night Lords or the World Eaters, and those did turn against the Emperor.

Col. Tartleton
15-08-2010, 08:26
But that was the plan all along. He wanted the heresy. He groomed them to kill each other eventually when it suited him. He just didn't expect Horus to try and kill him. The Emperor needed them to wage his war and couldn't risk them being around afterwards. The Emperor is not human. He was like 40,000 years old. He's seen so many people he loved die while he never aged that they've all become pawns to him. He can't help it. As mighty as they are they're still ants in the scheme of things.

FlashGordon
15-08-2010, 09:43
Spoilers? (it turns out that Horus is the bad guy!)

Okay, so I'm about too finish Galaxy in Flames, and I'm kind of amazed how fast Horus flipped. Not so much that he turned against the Emperor. He clearly had some deep rooted issues that were easy to manipulate. What amazes me is that he went from decent, compassionate and virtuous to cartoonishly evil withing a very, very short period of time.

There are plenty of events in Horus Rising and False Gods that illustrate Horus' inherent decentness and humanity. Even at the climax of the battle of Davin, after he was wounded by the anathema, he still had compassion for the commander who had betrayed him, and was overcome with grief after his death. Yet just a few weeks later he's painting his armor black, grinning as he assassinates diplomats and executing civilian members of the expedition fleet.

So does anyone else feel like Horus went from good to evil way, way to fast? Like he completely skipped any gray areas in between? I was a little disappointed to see such a well made character turn into a cackling super villian without the proper build up.

I was also a little surprised by how willing Maloghurst was to go along with the whole thing. He seemed like a pretty level guy, and while it didn't surprise me that blood thirsty Abbadon or Serghar the dick would be all into the idea of being evil just for the sake of it, Mag actually seemed like a stand up guy. Same with Little Horus. I'm not surprised that they went along with their leader, but I'm kind of amazed they didn't at least question him. After all, their role was to keep Horus honest.

the reason for it being "quick" was not because it was. I got the feeling that false gods and galaxy in flames are quite separated in time. Maybe most people just think "oh its the followup of false gods so it must continue the second false gods ended". And this is just not true, as loken himself thinks how much horus has changed since the anathema thing with a kind of melancholy only a long time produces.

AndrewGPaul
15-08-2010, 10:08
One thing the series has done, so far, is emphasise the time between the Isstvan events and the Siege of Earth. Previously, it was as if they all happened one after the other, as there was no mention of anything else happening. Granted, there were the odd mentions of the 6 months between Isstvan 3 and 5, and the advance of the rebels through the home system was implied to be a slow slog inwards (since there was time to complete work on, and move production to Earth of the mark 6 and 7 armours), but they never really took. This new series seems to emphasise the length of the Heresy better.

The reason for Horus' fall was originally a snap event, anyway:


The adjutant came smartly to attention before the vast wooden desk.
"The local representatives are outside, my lord Warmaster" The
Warmaster nodded once, without looking up from the stack of reports.
"Thank you, Bejaind. Make them comfortable and tell them I shall join
them directly." Bejaind cleared his throat nervously.
"Permission to speak freely... my lord?" This time, the Warmaster
looked up. The adjutant tried to hold his ice-blue gaze, and failed.
"I know, Bejaind." said the Warmaster "You're not happy about this
warrior lodge initiation."
"So soon after your illness, my lord..."
"From which I am fully recovered. I had the Apothacaria of five Space
Marine chapters fighting for the honor of healing me. I've been back to
full duties for a week now, with no ill-effects. Your concern is touching,
but unnecessary." Bejaind shuffled uncomfortably.
"But, my lord, we don't know what's involved..."
"I have a reasonable idea. A little pain, to be endured without crying
out; duels with a range of primitive weapons; trials of strength and
speed; a few primitive rituals -little different from mystic warrior
lodges in any other feral-world culture. You know Imperial policy;
establish ties which can be exploited in later recruitment."
He paused.
“This really is bothering you, isn't it?"
The adjutant tried to meet his gaze, and failed again.
“Listen, Bejaind. You are an outstanding staff officer; and I value your
loyalty and concern. But why does one warrior-lodge initiation on one
feral world disturb you so? I've gone through more than twenty of these
rituals in the past. I've been a Space Marine and a commander of
Marines for more than a century. You need have no fears for me."
"My lord, I.."
The Warmaster rose abruptly.
"Enough." His voice was softer; more dangerous. "I am Horus, General
and Warmaster The first soldier of the Imperium, subordinate only to
the Emperor himself Shall it be said that Horus ran away from a hutful
of savages?"
Bejaind struggled for words.
"My lord... I have had - dreams..."His distress was genuine. Horus laid
a hand on his shoulder
"Control yourself", he said gently. "You are excused for the rest of the
day. Go to the Apothacarion for a psychological update. And then,
perhaps, to the Chapel. A few hours' meditation will do you good.
Unless you prefer to report these dreams and submit yourself to the
Inquisition for psychic potential testing?"
Bejaind swallowed hard. "No, my lord."
"Well, then." Horus patted his shoulder gently.
"Go now, and we'll say no more. Meanwhile, I must meet the Elders of
the Knife of Stone."
And in the warp, something smiled. (Space Marine 1st edition rulebook)

That was it. Horus sits in a tent with some barbarians, comes out the pawn of Chaos.

Drakcore Bloodtear
15-08-2010, 13:29
The problem with the Heresy books is the resorting to the "Chaos artifact made me do it" tactic, rather than dwelling more on the choices and rationales of the Primarchs. They come off less tragic and more just stupid dupes if they're just being manipulated like puppets by evil artifacts/daemons.


I agree: the whole illness phase, IMO was to heavily relied on and made it feel like the artifact was the only reason Horus turned.

But I suppose with Loken being the protagonist the changes must have been caused by the only difference, in this case the chaos artifact.

narrativium
15-08-2010, 13:53
Horus turned quickly because that's how long it took him to make up his mind. He didn't agonise for weeks over which way to go, he had an opportunity and he took it.

No buildup? The whole of the book and a half before that moment was Horus taking on the role of Warmaster and learning how flawed the Imperium dream was and how bureaucratic it was becoming. He was shown the Emperor allowing his sons to be taken into the warp; he knew the Emperor was keeping secrets from him now, and of the Lectitio Divinitatus; he was shown a future in which half of the Primarchs were not honoured at all, and he was invited to change it. Erebus told him there would be power; Magnus violated the Censure of Nikaea to try to keep him loyal; he made his own choice.

The anathame/illness didn't make Horus do anything, unless you think he only chose to turn to Chaos because he would've died of the wound otherwise.

FabricatorGeneralMike
15-08-2010, 14:53
One thing the series has done, so far, is emphasise the time between the Isstvan events and the Siege of Earth. Previously, it was as if they all happened one after the other, as there was no mention of anything else happening. Granted, there were the odd mentions of the 6 months between Isstvan 3 and 5, and the advance of the rebels through the home system was implied to be a slow slog inwards (since there was time to complete work on, and move production to Earth of the mark 6 and 7 armours), but they never really took. This new series seems to emphasise the length of the Heresy better.

The reason for Horus' fall was originally a snap event, anyway:

(Space Marine 1st edition rulebook)

That was it. Horus sits in a tent with some barbarians, comes out the pawn of Chaos.

Thank you for posting that. That is my all time favoret story from SpaceMarine/epic. I really liked the snippets in that book. Same with Adeptus titanticus and Codex Titanticus.

I have to agree with others on here, it's like it's not even Horus doing that stuff, it was his evil identical twin Thaddus. He should of had on a goatee or the 'evil villian' mustache and I bet he sat in his war room doing the evil guy laugh in his best cobra commander immitation. :cries:

I really miss the old fluff for the heresy. I liked that Horus drugged and burned out Fulgrim to turn him, not give him some 'evil sword'. :rolleyes:

Altho I did really like A Thousand Sons and Nemesis. Remember folkes its about the journey not the destination, we all know what happens. Now lets find out what happens along the way.

Hellebore
15-08-2010, 14:56
Anyone, primarch or no, that thought the imperium wouldn't require/develop a bureaucracy was hopelessly naive.

Using that as an excuse to chuck a tanty isn't really bolstering Horus' intelligence...

Hellebore

barrangas
15-08-2010, 16:28
It's really a case of the "truth" never being as exciting as the mystery. Sure if GW had some decent authors doing their writing then they might have had a good run at it, but there would still be people unhappy with it.

There is always a problem with going back and writing the backstory of an established villian. Look at what happened with Darth Vader when episodes I, II, and III came out. I remember sitting through those movies thinking I could have done a better job writing them.

The Joker is another good example. I'm assuming that the first attempt to write a backstory for him was supposed to be offical but people weren't satisfied. This is what led to the Joker having multiple backstories that may or may not be true.

Trying to put a human face on a monster cheapens the monster, making it less inhuman.

Inquisitor Engel
15-08-2010, 16:47
the reason for it being "quick" was not because it was. I got the feeling that false gods and galaxy in flames are quite separated in time. Maybe most people just think "oh its the followup of false gods so it must continue the second false gods ended". And this is just not true, as loken himself thinks how much horus has changed since the anathema thing with a kind of melancholy only a long time produces.

Indeed, there's a large, large passage of time from the end of False Gods the the beginning of Galaxy in Flames. I got the impression it was several YEARS given that battles referenced and the average length of time travel takes.

Gimp
15-08-2010, 17:43
Terrible writing is terrible. As a rule I think they never should have released the books. They should have released the artbook and left it there. They took away mystery and replaced it little better then average Black Library stuff.

Thank you. My views entirely

Dead.Blue.Clown
15-08-2010, 18:06
I'm not asking for Abnett and McNeil and co. to rewrite Frankenstein, but it would be nice if they tried to write literature once in a while.


Sure if GW had some decent authors doing their writing then they might have had a good run at it, but there would still be people unhappy with it.


A disheartening thread, featuring the kind of direct insults that will always be the answer to "Why don't authors come and talk to the community more often?"

To some people, it's great sci-fi. To others, ultimately mediocre. To others, flawed from the start. To still others, it's the babbling of useless monkeys, printed and bound between two covers.

KingDeath
15-08-2010, 18:16
A disheartening thread, featuring the kind of direct insults that will always be the answer to "Why don't authors come and talk to the community more often?"

To some people, it's great sci-fi. To others, ultimately mediocre. To others, flawed from the start. To still others, it's the babbling of useless monkeys, printed and bound between two covers.

Might be disheartening, but some of the Black Library novels are simply not particularly good, either because they fail to give their characters some depth, they rape the fluff ( i look at your C.S. Goto :) ) or countless other misgivings.
Thankfully only a few have been as bad as Battle for the Abyss ( yes, give your villain an idiot ball the size of an Emperor Titan! ) or the truly atrocious Dawn of War series.

flota
15-08-2010, 18:22
A disheartening thread, featuring the kind of direct insults that will always be the answer to "Why don't authors come and talk to the community more often?"

To some people, it's great sci-fi. To others, ultimately mediocre. To others, flawed from the start. To still others, it's the babbling of useless monkeys, printed and bound between two covers.

not every member of the community will insult them if they give conferences...
that reasoning is like saying im not gonna drive today cause some drunk could hit me...:evilgrin:

some books are great, others "not so much".

in my case i expected something more from the primarchs, i mean i read about them since the index astartes and whaaaooo, those dudes could be one man army, but the books let me down in some of their aspects, but thats my opinion. ;)

english its not my first language sorry :angel:

massey
15-08-2010, 18:24
They are game novels. Pure and simple. No disrespect to Dead.Blue.Clown, but game novels aren't much different from romance novels, or any other kind of formulaic book. The authors aren't writing classical literature, because the audience isn't looking for it. The US has a fine tradition of pulpy, action-y mass-produced literature, from the old Louis L'Amour paperback westerns (and similar books even before) to the Dragonlance novels of today. I'm sure the UK has a similar history. They are paperback action novels, designed to be read in a day or two by teenagers everywhere.

Dead.Blue.Clown
15-08-2010, 18:35
They are game novels. Pure and simple. No disrespect to Dead.Blue.Clown, but game novels aren't much different from romance novels, or any other kind of formulaic book. The authors aren't writing classical literature, because the audience isn't looking for it. The US has a fine tradition of pulpy, action-y mass-produced literature, from the old Louis L'Amour paperback westerns (and similar books even before) to the Dragonlance novels of today. I'm sure the UK has a similar history. They are paperback action novels, designed to be read in a day or two by teenagers everywhere.

I don't really think so. While I'm usually the first to say there are plenty of BL novels I dislike, there are plenty of sci-fi and fantasy novels I dislike set everywhere and anywhere. Similarly, you've got loads of sections of the HH series that I've not enjoyed, or been disappointed with. But where all of this fails is with the fact some people always see it in black and white, with no shades of grey. The above quote is the perfect example. Grand, sweeping statements that make great soundbites and are passive-aggressive enough to sound superior and correct.

But ultimately, despite infinitely harsher standards than the ones mentioned in this thread, I can't see it quite so plainly. In this, as in everything, there's nuance. It's not black and white at all.

BL is just a publisher, not an arbiter of quality or a factory for homogenised pulp. You'll find several authors there, as in every publisher, who simply don't write "paperback action novels for teenagers". They write fantasy and sci-fi novels, set in the Warhammer setting. End of story.

While there'll always be a strong teenage market given the way geek culture works, it's a mistake to assume that everything is held to a similar quality, style and tone - let alone aimed at the same audiences - all because it's from the same publisher.

All Penguin or Harper Collins books aren't the same. That applies here, too.

Leez
15-08-2010, 18:37
Can you not wait upon the lunatic? - was the goal for good reason.

Gimp
15-08-2010, 18:45
A disheartening thread, featuring the kind of direct insults that will always be the answer to "Why don't authors come and talk to the community more often?"

To some people, it's great sci-fi. To others, ultimately mediocre. To others, flawed from the start. To still others, it's the babbling of useless monkeys, printed and bound between two covers.

For what they are I really enjoy BL novels I really do. As a student I love to sit down and read something that is not academic.

I have also really loved HH books. However I do think that some things should be lift unwritten to retain that mystery that keeps all the interest up.

Peril
15-08-2010, 18:51
Terrible writing is terrible.

This sums it up.

Tak
15-08-2010, 18:52
Maybe he just fancied a change?

I could very well get shot down in flame for saying this but I get the impression that some people take BL books WAY too seriously and the level of scathing vitriol that gets posted about the quality of the authors penmanship is, at times, quite shocking.

It very much reminds me of those people that, upon bumping into them in the street, launch into abuse at those unfortunate actors that play evil characters on TV: "How could you?!"

I personally think that the HH novels are very entertaining but then again I just look at them for what they are, good Sci-Fi and I don't lose any sleep about something that I don't enjoy.

Each to their own and if it's not for you then it's not for you but come on, seriously? Lighten up people.

snaketrap
15-08-2010, 19:10
the reason for it being "quick" was not because it was. I got the feeling that false gods and galaxy in flames are quite separated in time. Maybe most people just think "oh its the followup of false gods so it must continue the second false gods ended". And this is just not true, as loken himself thinks how much horus has changed since the anathema thing with a kind of melancholy only a long time produces.

It's about a year. They fight the Technocracy (sp?) for 10 months, and there's some travel on either side of that ( The voyage from Davin to the Technocracy is described as being quick). During that time Horus turned into a cackling, evil villain. Actually, it had already happened by the time he reached the Technocracy, where he shot their diplomat in the face.

So Horus' descent into pure evil was pretty much an immediate thing. That's what bothers me. The events on Davin offer a pretty compelling reason for him to turn from the Emperor and lead a rebellion. There doesn't seem to be any motivation for him to become this murderous, grinning, black armor wearing evil madman.


Horus turned quickly because that's how long it took him to make up his mind. He didn't agonise for weeks over which way to go, he had an opportunity and he took it.

Right, but the choice was to rebel. The choice was to take the place of his father. To displace the Emperor and take his rightful place as a better ruler. I can totally understand that. That's the kind of difficult choice Horus would make. That he then decided to immediately (withing weeks) become a cartoonishly evil villain is kind of amazing.

Son of Sanguinius
15-08-2010, 19:11
A disheartening thread, featuring the kind of direct insults that will always be the answer to "Why don't authors come and talk to the community more often?"

To some people, it's great sci-fi. To others, ultimately mediocre. To others, flawed from the start. To still others, it's the babbling of useless monkeys, printed and bound between two covers.

I totally agree that the blanket statements are unfair, and with the sentiment that one man's trash is another man's treasure.

However, the repeated use of plot devices like the Anathamae and the Sword of the Laer, the continued villainous type-casting of characters like Erebus (and indeed the entirety of the Word Bearers legion), and the repeated half-hearted attempts to explore the mysteries are incredibly frustrating, especially when we readers consider not only the unbelievable depth and potential of the 40k universe but also the undeniable talent that some BL authors like yourself have.

I'm not expecting to agree with even most of the Horus Heresy story, but the above issues rob many of the stories of what would have been a compelling nature. And a compelling story is all that we readers can truly ask for.

narrativium
15-08-2010, 19:34
It's about a year. They fight the Technocracy (sp?) for 10 months, and there's some travel on either side of that ( The voyage from Davin to the Technocracy is described as being quick). During that time Horus turned into a cackling, evil villain. Actually, it had already happened by the time he reached the Technocracy, where he shot their diplomat in the face. The voyage from Davin to the Auretian Technocracy takes sixteen weeks (False Gods, page 338).


So Horus' descent into pure evil was pretty much an immediate thing. That's what bothers me. The events on Davin offer a pretty compelling reason for him to turn from the Emperor and lead a rebellion. There doesn't seem to be any motivation for him to become this murderous, grinning, black armor wearing evil madman. How long do decisions normally take? You're of one opinion, then you're of another opinion. What's the normal transition time? He was considering points of view throughout the time he was in the temple, which was about nine days, and then he said he'd made up his mind.


Right, but the choice was to rebel. The choice was to take the place of his father. To displace the Emperor and take his rightful place as a better ruler. I can totally understand that. That's the kind of difficult choice Horus would make. That he then decided to immediately (withing weeks) become a cartoonishly evil villain is kind of amazing.
It's difficult to tell, and perhaps therein lies most of the flaw - for the most part of False Gods, after Horus makes his mind up, we don't see him much. It's only when he gathers together his new council at the end that we see what he's been up to for the prior fourteen months, and we don't really see why.

Mechanicum gives the impression that the Auretian War was about acquiring two STCs, so as to bring Mars to his side. False Gods openly states it had its uses to cover up certain atrocities. Mostly, it gave Horus time to plan, and time to determine who was on his side and who wasn't, before Isstvan III. He commands an army of thousands of Astartes; if there are any dissenters in his ranks, a difficult war would distract them while they determined their allegiances, and while he proceeds without doubt.

The cartoonishness... seems to be in the eye of the beholder. Sure, Loken's shocked by Horus's pleasure, given the Emperor's mandate; for Horus, it's the first action without the Emperor's control, and it showed.

Col. Tartleton
15-08-2010, 19:44
A disheartening thread, featuring the kind of direct insults that will always be the answer to "Why don't authors come and talk to the community more often?"

To some people, it's great sci-fi. To others, ultimately mediocre. To others, flawed from the start. To still others, it's the babbling of useless monkeys, printed and bound between two covers.

I don't mean it as direct insult. I'm just saying they shouldn't have been made to write the series. The stories they were telling aren't things you can do with a deadline and six more books expected of you down the line. Its something you should sit down and put together. I'm not saying they can't write. I like their books. They're engaging and entertaining, I'm blaming Black Library in general. They wrote books that didn't need writing and I know they could have done better.

That wrote pulp (which I like) when the story needed books that would rise above Warhammer fiction. I'm just saying it could have been better.

Dead.Blue.Clown
15-08-2010, 19:55
I don't mean it as direct insult. I'm just saying they shouldn't have been made to write the series. The stories they were telling aren't things you can do with a deadline and six more books expected of you down the line. Its something you should sit down and put together. I'm not saying they can't write. I like their books. They're engaging and entertaining, I'm blaming Black Library in general. They wrote books that didn't need writing and I know they could have done better.

That wrote pulp (which I like) when the story needed books that would rise above Warhammer fiction. I'm just saying it could have been better.

Naw, dude, I get you. And a solid chunk of my skull matter goes along the same lines: by shedding light on some things, it diminishes them. Saga, legend, myth - all can shrivel in the cold light of detail. So I totally see your point, and it's one that I've balanced around myself. In The First Heretic, I had no interest in showing the chats Lorgar had with Chaos, and the many squillions of moments when a demigod falls by inches. I could've done it, of course. But (I think) it would've shown a collossal slice of Missing The Point, as well as being disrespectful to the setting. Some things need to remain in the shadows.

So yeah, I can relate, on a few levels.

But on the plus side, I look at something like Legion (with several possible answers to a big mystery) and Horus Rising (as a very subtle, fairly distant look at the great era), and think that's the way to tell the story - if it really must be told. With tact, respectful distance, not trying to provide answers to everything, and leaving many of the most tantalising things veiled in shadow.

snaketrap
15-08-2010, 20:03
The voyage from Davin to the Auretian Technocracy takes sixteen weeks (False Gods, page 338).

So 16 weeks plus 10 moths of fighting is, as I said, about a year.


How long do decisions normally take? You're of one opinion, then you're of another opinion. What's the normal transition time? He was considering points of view throughout the time he was in the temple, which was about nine days, and then he said he'd made up his mind.


I'm not of one opinion and then another. Horus' decision to rebel was clearly motivated by deep rooted concerns and issues that had been troubling him from the very beginning of the series. After the events of Davin it was easy to believe that Horus would decide to rebel, and once having made that decision would commit to it completely. What doesn't make sense is that he would immediately become a grinning, evil monster. Up to this point we had seen no evidence that Horus was anything but an upstanding, compassionate, honorable warrior always willing to put the good of the Imperium first, always willing to respect his enemies and constantly looking for diplomatic solutions. Deciding to rebel and deciding to become evil (or just unintentionally becoming evil) are two very different things.

So where did this change come from? Was this the influence of the Chaos gods, or did Horus just decide that the best way to rebel was (as someone else suggested) reject everything that his father valued and become a cartoonishly evil villain? This doesn't really make much sense, since the assertion behind the rebellion was that Horus could be a better ruler then his father. That he could lead the Imperium of Man that his father had betrayed and stepped away from. That he could be a better Emperor,a nd that he was more worthy of that rank then his father. Of course this was motivated by pride, greed and conceit, but Horus was already prideful and arrogant while still being a decent person. So such a drastic personality change in so short of time was a little hard to swallow. Or rather, I would have liked to see exactly what led to such a drastic personality change over just 16 weeks. His motivations for betrayal are clear and well illustrated. The cause of his quick descent into evil are not.


Mechanicum gives the impression that the Auretian War was about acquiring two STCs, so as to bring Mars to his side. False Gods openly states it had its uses to cover up certain atrocities. Mostly, it gave Horus time to plan, and time to determine who was on his side and who wasn't, before Isstvan III. He commands an army of thousands of Astartes; if there are any dissenters in his ranks, a difficult war would distract them while they determined their allegiances, and while he proceeds without doubt.

The cartoonishness... seems to be in the eye of the beholder. Sure, Loken's shocked by Horus's pleasure, given the Emperor's mandate; for Horus, it's the first action without the Emperor's control, and it showed.

The eye of the beholder? He dresses in evil looking black armor. He grins as he kills innocent civilians and assassinates diplomats. The man is well known for a self described flare for melodrama, so it's not like this isn't to be expected. It just happens soooooo fast!

As far as the war with the Technocracy goes, it seems like it would have been easier to use diplomacy to get the STC's then launch into a bloody 10 month war.

snaketrap
15-08-2010, 20:04
Just for the record, I actually am enjoying the series a lot.

Lord Nestron
15-08-2010, 20:20
I am really enjoying the series but I think the the big E should have been more along the lines of Jon Ostermann/Dr. Manhatten (from Watchmen) ,a.i. the slowly losing contact with humantie super being. This would have set a brilliant stage on which horus could have been paited as hero and villian at the same time. The flip is not very well done sadly. The story jumps where it gets intressting. We then rejoin when the real magic has been done and I agree with Dead.Blue.Clown some things where not meant to ever be writen or read

snaketrap
15-08-2010, 20:34
I am really enjoying the series but I think the the big E should have been more along the lines of Jon Ostermann/Dr. Manhatten (from Watchmen) ,a.i. the slowly losing contact with humantie super being. This would have set a brilliant stage on which horus could have been paited as hero and villian at the same time. The flip is not very well done sadly. The story jumps where it gets intressting. We then rejoin when the real magic has been done and I agree with Dead.Blue.Clown some things where not meant to ever be writen or read

That's a good observation, and I think a large part of my disappointment. When I started Horos Rising I was thrilled to see that Horus was being treated not just as a protagonist and a hero, but a complicated individual with realistically portrayed desires and motivations. When Galaxy in Flames stepped away from Horus as a protagonist it was at the same time that Horus went through his change into a wicked, evil, black wearing villain. So the change went unexamined, and we can no longer see Horus as a sympathetic individual. His motivations, desires and problems are beside the point now. He's just the bad guy.

Col. Tartleton
15-08-2010, 20:41
Naw, dude, I get you. And a solid chunk of my skull matter goes along the same lines: by shedding light on some things, it diminishes them. Saga, legend, myth - all can shrivel in the cold light of detail. So I totally see your point, and it's one that I've balanced around myself. In The First Heretic, I had no interest in showing the chats Lorgar had with Chaos, and the many squillions of moments when a demigod falls by inches. I could've done it, of course. But (I think) it would've shown a collossal slice of Missing The Point, as well as being disrespectful to the setting. Some things need to remain in the shadows.

So yeah, I can relate, on a few levels.

But on the plus side, I look at something like Legion (with several possible answers to a big mystery) and Horus Rising (as a very subtle, fairly distant look at the great era), and think that's the way to tell the story - if it really must be told. With tact, respectful distance, not trying to provide answers to everything, and leaving many of the most tantalising things veiled in shadow.

Yeah I'm not saying the books are crap. They're books. The fact they wrote a whole book (many actually) is more then I could do (at least at my current state.) I just think the executive decision might have been misplaced because Warhammer is based on myths and smoke and mirrors. It would have been better if they were all told more opiniony and less word of god what happened. Like the Sons of Horus should have been written essentially in first person from Loken's perspective. If they did that I'd have no problem. It would have been one of a million different stories that may or not have been what happened. That's what the Dark Angel books did. I think that was smarter. Instead of an official story of Horus' fall you'd have the theories of one of his underlings.

TheMav80
15-08-2010, 20:59
I was always under the impression that Horus turning so evil was direct manipulation by the Chaos Gods. He literally gets corrupted. He had to be twisted by Chaos in order to fully betray the Imperium.

In Thousand Sons it mentions that their first choice was going to be Magnus, but he was (psychicly, I assume) too powerful. They needed someone who's mind was not quite as powerfully defended. So they took Horus. Granted this is Tzeentch talking to Magnus...so it could be a load of crap.

I have greatly enjoyed most of the HH books. Having some dark ysterious pieces is good, I agree. At the same time I'd like to have good reasons explained as to why these Legions fell. Until now we have never had one.

Legion, The two Dark Angel books, and A Thousand Sons specifically have been very well done and show actually well rounded characters failing for believable reasons. Well, in Legion they maybe failed or maybe they succeeded or maybe some of both...but you get the idea.

massey
15-08-2010, 23:04
I don't really think so. While I'm usually the first to say there are plenty of BL novels I dislike, there are plenty of sci-fi and fantasy novels I dislike set everywhere and anywhere. Similarly, you've got loads of sections of the HH series that I've not enjoyed, or been disappointed with. But where all of this fails is with the fact some people always see it in black and white, with no shades of grey. The above quote is the perfect example. Grand, sweeping statements that make great soundbites and are passive-aggressive enough to sound superior and correct.

But ultimately, despite infinitely harsher standards than the ones mentioned in this thread, I can't see it quite so plainly. In this, as in everything, there's nuance. It's not black and white at all.

BL is just a publisher, not an arbiter of quality or a factory for homogenised pulp. You'll find several authors there, as in every publisher, who simply don't write "paperback action novels for teenagers". They write fantasy and sci-fi novels, set in the Warhammer setting. End of story.

While there'll always be a strong teenage market given the way geek culture works, it's a mistake to assume that everything is held to a similar quality, style and tone - let alone aimed at the same audiences - all because it's from the same publisher.

All Penguin or Harper Collins books aren't the same. That applies here, too.

I don't mean it as an insult. I just mean, well, they're game books. While I've only read maybe 5 or 6 40K novels, I've read about 9 or 10 D&D novels, and I don't know how many Battletech books. Some are well written, some are not so well written. But they're all game novels. And as such, they face the same sort of restrictions and expectations that a Star Trek or Star Wars novel would face.

You, as a writer, are walking around in somebody else's world. You don't have the same degree of freedom that you would with something that was entirely of your own making. Plus, there's the fact that the readers are looking at it and are trying to figure out what character XYZ's stats are. I remember reading one book, and once combat kicked in, you could almost count the hit point loss. "And then Bob was hit by a mace, and took 7 hit points of damage. Fortunately the second blow failed to hit his armor class." Some novels are worse than others on this point, but the fans really expect this (sadly). Take a look on this board and you'll see people complaining about some novel where a character destroys a dreadnaught with a lasgun. "They're armor 12!!! You can't do that!" They will literally hate a novel because someone has a krak grenade blow a track off of a land raider, or because something contradicts a line in a sourcebook from 20 years ago. It's the nature of the beast.

Chem-Dog
15-08-2010, 23:21
Something that stuck with me was Dan Abnett's comment about the nature of the Space Wolves in his interview about Prospero Burns. He asks why the Emperor would allow such an elemental and unruly force of destruction like the Wolves of Fenris to exist. His answer is to be able to destroy another Legion. Take from that what you will.

Not an entirely unthinkable premise, considering that at the point when the Heresy is known there are already two "Failed" Legions, although they have never gone into it, it's entirely possible that the Emperor knew he might need an executioner Legion.



The Emperor POV story in the old Realms of Chaos show the Emperor could not see beyond the Heresy and still found it difficult to come to grips with the magnitude of the betrayal. Thus the Emperor does not appear to have planned or foreseen this, though afterwards pro-Imperial historians and religious writers may certainly have wanted to portray the omniscience of the Emperor.

If this is the Bill King short you're talking about, it's the reason I fell into 40K


The Emperor though powerful has certainly never been portrayed objectively as omnipotent or omniscient despite the beliefs of the characters within 40K. It is entirely reasonable to think he did not anticipate the speed or magnitude of such a rebellion. He may have been lulled into complacency by the speed and success of the Great Crusade. Though with incidents such as Lorgar's reprimand and the trouble with Magnus, the Emperor might have anticipated a rebellion of a Legion in isolation, but not the rapid subversion and rebellion of multiple Legions in quick succession.

Or that it was Horus of all the Primarchs at the Head of the rebellion, I think this is key, in universe, to the sheer shock and awe of the Heresy, of all that would turn, the favoured son....


One thing the series has done, so far, is emphasise the time between the Isstvan events and the Siege of Earth.

I for one would still appreciate a snazzy time-line diagram with key points annotated (and book/page references). But then I have trouble working out what day it is sometimes :D


Horus turned quickly because that's how long it took him to make up his mind.

Indeed, A superhuman, expert statesman and peerless warrior, you would hope Horus would know his own mind.


No buildup? The whole of the book and a half before that moment was Horus taking on the role of Warmaster and learning how flawed the Imperium dream was and how bureaucratic it was becoming. He was shown the Emperor allowing his sons to be taken into the warp; he knew the Emperor was keeping secrets from him now, and of the Lectitio Divinitatus; he was shown a future in which half of the Primarchs were not honoured at all, and he was invited to change it.

Ah the honeyed lies and half truths of Chaos, one of the crowning tragedies of the Horus story (for me at least) was that he was shown a future that his actions were to bring about.



To some people, it's great sci-fi. To others, ultimately mediocre. To others, flawed from the start. To still others, it's the babbling of useless monkeys, printed and bound between two covers.

HEY! I like Monkeys!!!


They are game novels. Pure and simple. No disrespect to Dead.Blue.Clown, but game novels aren't much different from romance novels, or any other kind of formulaic book. The authors aren't writing classical literature, because the audience isn't looking for it.

Personally, I'd love to read something that swings us in a different direction, I'm not saying I want to read the collected works of Ignace Karkasy, but I'm willing to give anything a go.


The above quote is the perfect example. Grand, sweeping statements that make great soundbites and are passive-aggressive enough to sound superior and correct.

A hazard of the medium I'm afraid :(



So Horus' descent into pure evil was pretty much an immediate thing. That's what bothers me. The events on Davin offer a pretty compelling reason for him to turn from the Emperor and lead a rebellion. There doesn't seem to be any motivation for him to become this murderous, grinning, black armor wearing evil madman.

"One man’s scoundrel is another’s savior"
Horus was already all of those things, he was built and taught to be so.

Col. Tartleton
15-08-2010, 23:42
Yeah I think your last point is an especially good one Chemdog. Perhaps we the readers should accept that he was already capable of doing everything he would do from the start of the story. He already had black Justaerin terminator armor gilded in brass, covered in wolf pelts and the skulls of his greatest foes hanging from his armor like a macabre kilt. He was the Warmaster. Even on his noblest day he could never wash off the blood. He already had the lightning claws as far back as Ullanor at least (I remember him having them.) He was already Horus the Arch Traitor when we open Horus Rising. Maybe the authors could have that twist in it.

the.alleycat.uk
16-08-2010, 00:01
I agree with some of the sentiment on show in the thread.

Horus fell to quickly, and keeping the primarchs [inc Horus] inscrutible means that people have to read things into situations themselves. I think this has erred to much on the side of caution and hindered characterisation but is by no means bad writing.

Effectively the whole off the Horus Heresy is analogous to the fall of Lucifer.

If you really want a better understanding of Horus' fall you could read paradise lost.

Replace God with the Emperor
Lucifer [satan] with Horus
And humanity with humanity [especially the newly forming adeptus; all those clerks, scribes administrators etc who are suddenly getting in the way and trying to tell the angels how to do stuff.]

As well as this sudden undermining [in their eyes] of the astartes and their crusade...

Suddenly daddy leaves for an important thing and won't tll anyone about it.

[Also he won't tell them that there really are nasty evil things out there so noone is on their guard against it.]

This [and having been physically weakened before hand] is why the whispers of chaos were able to sway our noble primarchs.

As for the good to extreme evil shift... you have to remember how the astartes and primarchs approach ANYTHING...

also remember that the crusade was in effect a holy mission from god, turning that on it's head would lead to the exact reverse attitude being applied to those who would remain loyal to the emperor as would previously have been directed toward those who resisted the crusade.


All this stuff is touched on in the first two HH books, but you have to understand, process and extrapolate for yourselves.

Whether you like that of not is up to you, but you can't really call it bad writing.

barrangas
16-08-2010, 06:01
A disheartening thread, featuring the kind of direct insults that will always be the answer to "Why don't authors come and talk to the community more often?"

To some people, it's great sci-fi. To others, ultimately mediocre. To others, flawed from the start. To still others, it's the babbling of useless monkeys, printed and bound between two covers.


I could very well get shot down in flame for saying this but I get the impression that some people take BL books WAY too seriously and the level of scathing vitriol that gets posted about the quality of the authors penmanship is, at times, quite shocking.

If authors were afraid of criticism, there would be no literature at all. Trust me, I've seen some rejection letters saved by some published authors, kept solely for the brilliance of their scathing criticism. Calling a GW author sub par isn't likely to hurt their feelings at all. It's not like I'm saying something like "only idiots would read this". I don't believe this. You're welcome to like whatever you want (I have friends who watch Reality TV show :( ). I've never been able to get through a single GW novel because, IMO, they aren't good books.

narrativium
16-08-2010, 08:00
barrangas: you're confusing direct insults with criticism. Authors aren't afraid of criticism, but "they aren't good books" isn't criticism. And "they're just game books" isn't either. Neither statement suggests anything which the author can use to improve.

Dead.Blue.Clown
16-08-2010, 09:22
If authors were afraid of criticism, there would be no literature at all. Trust me, I've seen some rejection letters saved by some published authors, kept solely for the brilliance of their scathing criticism. Calling a GW author sub par isn't likely to hurt their feelings at all.

Well, it depends. If you're saying that from a position of informed experience, with a wide range of various authors under your belt, rather than just taking a few books you didn't like and applying their quality to 50+ separate authors...


I've never been able to get through a single GW novel because, IMO, they aren't good books.

Ah.

No, you're right, nothing you can say will hurt my feelings.

Tak
16-08-2010, 10:17
Ah.

No, you're right, nothing you can say will hurt my feelings.

Don't listen to em' ADB, you ROCK!

Dead.Blue.Clown
16-08-2010, 10:44
On topic, this thread highlighted my main critique of the opening trilogy, too. But then, I can never tell if it's because I expected something different, and that colours my perception. The way Horus fell was so different from what I'd been expecting (despite how it links up with ancient lore) that it'd have been hard to please me, no matter what.


Don't listen to em' ADB, you ROCK!

Pfff. I fear no blanket statements made by one self-confessed uninformed guy. The only voice I heed is that of Anders Friden.

AndrewGPaul
16-08-2010, 10:56
The given details of Horus' fall have always been "poof! possessed by daemons in a tent!". If anything, the events leading up to that in the first two novels are adding details to that event. I suppose there could have been more, but I didn't really want to read Horus' life story starting as a foetus in a mineshaft. :) Horus Rising had two jobs to do; not just set up Horus for a fall, but also introduce the entire setting. I'm just glad it came in as short as it did.

ashc
16-08-2010, 11:07
Naw, dude, I get you. And a solid chunk of my skull matter goes along the same lines: by shedding light on some things, it diminishes them. Saga, legend, myth - all can shrivel in the cold light of detail. So I totally see your point, and it's one that I've balanced around myself. In The First Heretic, I had no interest in showing the chats Lorgar had with Chaos, and the many squillions of moments when a demigod falls by inches. I could've done it, of course. But (I think) it would've shown a collossal slice of Missing The Point, as well as being disrespectful to the setting. Some things need to remain in the shadows.

I am glad that someone related to the process of the story-building feels this way, its good to hear and lays (well, some but not all) of my woes with the HH series to rest.

It just occasionally feels that some authors insist on bringing 'their own take' on what happened far too much, which is then taken up as canonical and set in stone by those inclined to do so. When those things feel like lazy plot devices, its very disappointing as a reader.

gitburna
16-08-2010, 15:34
See, I'm usually of the opinion that although Horus turns quickly "in the book" it almost seems as if the crucial fulcrum of his turning process has been deliberately left out. We see him as he's leading up to the turn, we see him after he's turned - and it's some time later too.

Call me naive, but i just don't believe that this isn't deliberate - i can think of several reasons why but as to whether any are true (or near the truth) is something i may never know. Anyway, the reasons i can think of are

-couldn't decide on the best way to deal with the nitty gritty of the turning and so skipped over it rather than write something he wasn't pleased with
-left it deliberately "in shadow" to allow for fan discussion
-planned on detailing the events later and so skipped forward a few months
-wanted to wait and see what other authors come up with in their works , hoping that it might spark some new ideas.
-just didn't want to reveal the answer to the $64,000 question halfway through book 2 of a series

Merus
16-08-2010, 16:08
I've never been able to get through a single GW novel because, IMO, they aren't good books.

I know this is your opinion, as you said, but I cannot believe this. You have not found a single Black Library novel you enjoy? Really?

There are some absolutely incredible pieces out there, such as Storm of Iron, the Malus Darkblade series, A Thousand Sons, the Gideon Ravenor Omnibus and anything by Aaron Dembski-Bowden.

Now those are just some of my personal favorites, there are a lot more that are great reads. I have a room in my apartment dedicated to holding my minis in display cases and holding the vast library I have accumulated over the years, and I am quite proud to have two shelves worth of said space belonging to Black Library.

Saying they are all "bad books" is absolute rubbish.

barrangas
16-08-2010, 16:39
barrangas: you're confusing direct insults with criticism. Authors aren't afraid of criticism, but "they aren't good books" isn't criticism. And "they're just game books" isn't either. Neither statement suggests anything which the author can use to improve.

You're right, I'm not providing constructive criticism. In order to do that I'd have to try rereading one of those books and writing a brief about how the author could improve. Doesn't change the fact that some publisher a far worse then anything that I've said here. I believe one rejection letter I've seen said something along the lines of stop wasting ink and paper. The author in question changed the story around and sold the story to another publisher.


Pfff. I fear no blanket statements made by one self-confessed uninformed guy. The only voice I heed is that of Anders Friden.

So because I've always put down a GW book before I could finish it I'm uninformed? Did I say I only tried reading one? Does this mean some one who hasn't read every single BL book is uninformed? Does it invalidate the point that I was making that filling in the backstory of a villian usually doesn't work out well?

Take Hannibal Lector for instance. Red Dragon, Silence of the Lambs, and Hannibal were all good books with a modern day monster. Hannibal Rising, on the other hand, cheapened the character by trying to let the reader understand where Lector's maddness came from.

So because I've never been able to stomach reading a

Dead.Blue.Clown
16-08-2010, 17:16
So because I've always put down a GW book before I could finish it I'm uninformed? Did I say I only tried reading one? Does this mean some one who hasn't read every single BL book is uninformed?

No. But you were making blanket statements that were - and I'm being generous - sorta nonsense. "They're all bad books". Well, really? I'm sure the ones you read were. But don't deceive yourself into thinking that every book published by the same company is written by the same person, to the same style, with the same tone, and to the same quality. Making a claim that every novel released by a publisher is bad is going to be an opinion that gets knocked because, essentially, it's pretty ignorant. You shouldn't get mad that an opinion like that gets challenged. You should sorta expect it.


Does it invalidate the point that I was making that filling in the backstory of a villian usually doesn't work out well?

Of course not. It was a great point, and one that several of us have made, too. I even agreed with you.

Wyrmwood
16-08-2010, 17:39
Anders Friden and In Flames... What a joke ;)

Scribe of Khorne
16-08-2010, 18:00
Personal bias and expectations need to be acknowledged before any discussion about the quality of any book.

For my money, I have enjoyed pretty much every BL book I have read. I have enjoyed each of the HH novels I have purchased, and enjoyed Soul Hunter quite a bit.

That said, I came in wanting to know what happened, wanting to have the veil lifted, and the "truth" of that time exposed.

I also was raised on what some may consider 'poor' writing.

Dragonlance and Battletech, where pretty much my bread and butter for much of my teenage life and I am happy with those, they entertain, and are good enough stories (more the DL then the BT really, BT doesnt quite hold up like Dragonlance has for me).

Temmy
16-08-2010, 18:37
I got the vague impression that Horus was starting to crack under the strain of running the crusade and may in fact have been suffering the beginnings of a nervous breakdown. He had considerable resentment about being left in the dark about the doings of the Emperor back on Terra, barely sublimated ambition and his overweening pride.

Horus had been teetering on a knife edge for a very long time. Even before he was warmaster he seemed to be building a clique around himself, manipulating them and even setting primarchs against one another such as Dorn and Perturabo.

In the end, I think Chaos just gave Horus a reason to drop the pretenses and do what he had been wanting to do for a very long time.

Freak Ona Leash
16-08-2010, 18:57
You're right, I'm not providing constructive criticism. In order to do that I'd have to try rereading one of those books and writing a brief about how the author could improve. Doesn't change the fact that some publisher a far worse then anything that I've said here. I believe one rejection letter I've seen said something along the lines of stop wasting ink and paper. The author in question changed the story around and sold the story to another publisher.





The fact that many in the business of reviewing/publishing/writing literature are arrogant, pretentious asses changes nothing. I'm an aspiring writer and (unfortunately) not a very good one at that, so I've heard just about all the vitriol one can hear; directed not only at myself but at other writers as well.

Many writers (and indeed, professionals of every stripe) hold themselves as if they never screwed up once in the process. Yes, much of what is written (and this isn't just for Black Library) is unmitigated tripe. So? Does someone writing something you consider bad hurt you in any way, shape or form? Does someone confusing synecdoche with metonymy cause you pain? Or screwing up their rhyme scheme or messing up their iambic pentameter, does that make your eyes melt and your ears burn?

And this doesn't change the fact that several BL writers are in fact rather good. Being not only an aspiring writer but a young, aspiring writer, I have been exposed to prose and poetry that boggles the mind in how wretchedly bad it is. I have most definitely even written some of it. And yes, even gotten it semi-published (on an e-zine, so nothing special. One step above self-publishing, one step below anything would warrant a self-esteem boost.) Writers like Graham McNeil, Dan Abnett and Aaron Dembski-Bowden may not be Hemingway or Dostoevsky or even R.E. Howard/H.P. Lovecraft. But I somehow doubt they'd want to be. They write fiction that works within the framework they are given (the GW licensed game "universes") and manages to bring to life that framework and populate with interesting characters and interesting events.

You're welcome, now go wipe your **** with BL books if you feel that makes you better. I'll continue reading them.

barrangas
16-08-2010, 19:04
No. But you were making blanket statements that were - and I'm being generous - sorta nonsense. "They're all bad books". Well, really? I'm sure the ones you read were. But don't deceive yourself into thinking that every book published by the same company is written by the same person, to the same style, with the same tone, and to the same quality. Making a claim that every novel released by a publisher is bad is going to be an opinion that gets knocked because, essentially, it's pretty ignorant. You shouldn't get mad that an opinion like that gets challenged. You should sorta expect it.

Of course not. It was a great point, and one that several of us have made, too. I even agreed with you.

I'm not mad, honestly I'm kind of amused. I read a lot of different books, much of it fantasy and sci-fi and, compared to many of them, the GW authors fall short. I have read many BL books, from Abnett to Goto, and have only made it about halfway through each before giving up on it. It's true I've read a lot worse, I remember reading the first couple of chapters the Forgotten Realms book Spellfire after hearing just how bad it was. If I was comparing Spellfire to BL books I could understand why you'd be so upset :D. So based off of multiple experience with multiple BL with several samples I have come to the opinion that the authors aren't very good.

I also seriously doubt that this opinion would phase any of them as they've probably seen worse in the countless rejection letters every author recieves. I think they'll live. It's not like I'm saying they all should be hung, drawn, and quartered.

I'm not slamming people because they like reading them. I'm sure there are things that I like that you'd be saying "dear god why" (The Robotech novels I read as a kid come to mind, they were awful and I read every one of them :D). Accusing me of ignorance though is kind of funny, as you have no idea what my opinion is based off of to begin with but chose to start an arguement over one person's personal opinion rather then the arguement I was making at the time. You like a lot of the BL books and think that the writers are good, that's cool, I don't agree with you.


.

massey
16-08-2010, 19:07
I also was raised on what some may consider 'poor' writing.

Dragonlance and Battletech, where pretty much my bread and butter for much of my teenage life and I am happy with those, they entertain, and are good enough stories (more the DL then the BT really, BT doesnt quite hold up like Dragonlance has for me).

And see, I'm the opposite. I can still read a Battletech novel and enjoy it. Michael Stackpole did some pretty decent political intrigue, and kept the mech combat to a minimum (though his combat did suffer from the "right arm takes 10 points of damage, roll for critical hit" syndrome). But D&D books long ago became just too much to bear.

It's serialized fiction. There's nothing wrong with that. But those expecting Paradise Lost are in for disappointment. I'm not saying that every one of them is gonna be on the level of Grimm Shado (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/5/22/), but my expectations aren't too high. Most of them are the literary equivalent of Friday the 13th Part 6 (a fine movie), or Season 8 of Friends. The ground rules have been set, all the readers know what's coming, and that's exactly what they want. Chandler is going to say something sarcastic, Monica is going to be high-strung, Joey will do something dumb, and Jason Voorhees is gonna come out of the lake and kill some teenagers. Everybody is happy. It's a pretty receptive audience.

Now, occasionally you may get a "City on the Edge of Forever", something that is unusually good for its medium. But you're more likely to get something where Kirk fights an alien in a gladiator pit, or where they discover a planet where everyone is a Chicago mobster. I have nothing against this sort of fiction, and nothing against the people who write it. When I was growing up, I just wanted stories about giant robots shooting other giant robots, "war porn" as they call it. And in the handful of HH novels I read, they lived up to their war porn title. The one I liked the most was Descent of Angels, which really just felt like a unique fantasy title until the last 50 pages or so. Unfortunately, most people didn't like it for exactly that reason. No offense to ADB, as I haven't read any of his books, but my expectation for this sort of fiction is that they fall into the realm of most other softcover sci-fi/fantasy series, which is about a step and a half above the novelization of Halo.

Son of Sanguinius
16-08-2010, 19:13
The one I liked the most was Descent of Angels, which really just felt like a unique fantasy title until the last 50 pages or so. Unfortunately, most people didn't like it for exactly that reason.

Thank you! It's nice to know I'm not the only one who felt the novel was refreshing, at least until it seemed like "oh wait...we need more mareenz". And that was the primary and repetitive criticism..."we want more mareenz".

Scribe of Khorne
16-08-2010, 19:15
And see, I'm the opposite. I can still read a Battletech novel and enjoy it. Michael Stackpole did some pretty decent political intrigue, and kept the mech combat to a minimum (though his combat did suffer from the "right arm takes 10 points of damage, roll for critical hit" syndrome). But D&D books long ago became just too much to bear.


The Stackpole arc, with the assassin, and everything was well done, but anything unrelated to that overall story just didnt have the same pull to me, its a big reason why I enjoyed the core dragonlance story, it was the same characters I grew up with, and then their kids even, and as an adult now, its still entertaining to go back and re-read the story.

The rest of your post is spot on though. I know what I am wanting, and expecting going into a BL book, and by and large, they deliver.

barrangas
16-08-2010, 19:18
The fact that many in the business of reviewing/publishing/writing literature are arrogant, pretentious asses changes nothing. I'm an aspiring writer and (unfortunately) not a very good one at that, so I've heard just about all the vitriol one can hear; directed not only at myself but at other writers as well.

Many writers (and indeed, professionals of every stripe) hold themselves as if they never screwed up once in the process. Yes, much of what is written (and this isn't just for Black Library) is unmitigated tripe. So? Does someone writing something you consider bad hurt you in any way, shape or form? Does someone confusing synecdoche with metonymy cause you pain? Or screwing up their rhyme scheme or messing up their iambic pentameter, does that make your eyes melt and your ears burn?

And this doesn't change the fact that several BL writers are in fact rather good. Being not only an aspiring writer but a young, aspiring writer, I have been exposed to prose and poetry that boggles the mind in how wretchedly bad it is. I have most definitely even written some of it. And yes, even gotten it semi-published (on an e-zine, so nothing special. One step above self-publishing, one step below anything would warrant a self-esteem boost.) Writers like Graham McNeil, Dan Abnett and Aaron Dembski-Bowden may not be Hemingway or Dostoevsky or even R.E. Howard/H.P. Lovecraft. But I somehow doubt they'd want to be. They write fiction that works within the framework they are given (the GW licensed game "universes") and manages to bring to life that framework and populate with interesting characters and interesting events.

You're welcome, now go wipe your **** with BL books if you feel that makes you better. I'll continue reading them.

Good luck in your endevores, and may publishers increase the pay on Sci-fi novels (the same pay rate since the 1950s sucks) :).

Again though, I don't think that the authors for BL are that great. That's my opinion. You like them and I hope you continue to enjoy them. It doesn't make either of us right or wrong, better or worse.

Dead.Blue.Clown
16-08-2010, 20:06
It's a pretty receptive audience.

To most of BL's authors? To most of Star Wars' authors? The overwhelming opinion on forums is far from receptive, even if they're the vocal minority, they're very vocal indeed. Some authors do very well, most do okay, and many are absolutely ripped apart. Whether it's valid or not isn't (weirdly...) the point in this instance. Writing licensed fiction is generally seen as a bit of a risk - for all the established audience, that doesn't make it a receptive one: the fan reception is absolutely murderous a lot of the time, because no one ever sees the setting in the same way, and a common opinion is "They're just game books", rather than "It's sci-fi".

And a lot of that is deserved. Let's not wave the flags for all tie-in fiction and say it's wonderful. It's just like all other fiction: most of it sucks to me, you, and everyone else.

I've read plenty of tie-in novels that suffered massively from the stats jokes you've made, but there're still shades of grey. Dan Abnett isn't writing "game books". He's writing sci-fi novels that are set in a gestalt setting made upfrom many people rather than just one. Honestly, I think you're seeing a trend that shows huge flaws in some authors' skills (and is a very valid criticism), and then falsely ascribing it to an entire process.

It's especially weird because with 40K, the rules are famous for not portraying the actual setting. So they're routinely ignored or glossed over by authors (and even background writers in the codices and articles). Never before have tie-in novels had less to do with the rules of a game - because they're based on the lore, not the mechanics that are intentionally flawed for sales and game balance.

Note that I wouldn't ever stand up to defend every BL writer, the same as I wouldn't defend every writer that was published by Dark Horse, LucasWhatever, Harper Collins or Penguin, etc. But writing a tie-in novel is no more or less worthy than any other sci-fi novel, nor is it any easier or harder, just because the planets and guns already have names. It really doesn't come with the limitations you're implying - just the (very well-established, and frequently justified) prejudices you're voicing.

But yeah, I hear you.


I'm not mad, honestly I'm kind of amused. I read a lot of different books, much of it fantasy and sci-fi and, compared to many of them, the GW authors fall short. I have read many BL books, from Abnett to Goto, and have only made it about halfway through each before giving up on it. It's true I've read a lot worse, I remember reading the first couple of chapters the Forgotten Realms book Spellfire after hearing just how bad it was. If I was comparing Spellfire to BL books I could understand why you'd be so upset :D.

Please don't do that, man. At no point have I come across as "upset". Don't do the passive-aggressive thing of pretending The Other Guy is so much more invested in a discussion than you.


So based off of multiple experience with multiple BL with several samples I have come to the opinion that the authors aren't very good.

And I explained why that opinion would be easy to ignore.


I also seriously doubt that this opinion would phase any of them as they've probably seen worse in the countless rejection letters every author recieves. I think they'll live. It's not like I'm saying they all should be hung, drawn, and quartered.

I never said they'd be phased by what you said. In fact, I specifically said that because of how you were backing up your opinion, it would be easy to ignore. I say one thing, and you accuse me of saying the exact opposite? Mwuh?


Accusing me of ignorance though is kind of funny, as you have no idea what my opinion is based off of to begin with but chose to start an arguement over one person's personal opinion rather then the arguement I was making at the time.

I based my reply on... the opinion you stated? Several times? That's.... that's wrong? Also, don't be amused that several people picked up on one of the many things you said, rather than the one thing you wanted them to focus on. That's a really weird complaint.


You like a lot of the BL books and think that the writers are good, that's cool, I don't agree with you.

Careful. I never said that, either.

I'll make this as simple as I can. I let Black Library publish my work. As I said, your opinion doesn't phase me, because it comes across as a blanket statement that, to me, looks pretty ignorant. I've had a lot of dealings with car mechanics, because I'm the world's least-safe driver, and I sometimes want to say that all British car mechanics suck. However, I don't, because I've not exactly met them all, and my experience with a few of them is fairly limited. (I have, however, not enjoyed my dealings with several of them, for various reasons.)

Bluntly put, you voiced an opinion and backed it up spuriously. I'm sorry you're not 100% cool with why I think it's a lame prejudice and fairly ignorant, but take note of where we agree: You're absolutely right when you say your views don't phase authors, and it's not because they have a thick skin.

Freak Ona Leash
16-08-2010, 20:18
I'm forcibly reminded of the "discussions" on a certain Star Wars-lit board that forced the author Karen Traviss to basically never post on the internet again. People who were adamant fans of Star Wars saw her vision of the Star Wars universe as bad; so bad, they ranted, raved and basically harassed her off the boards.

Shame. She was a likable person most of the time and a far better writer than most of the SW writers at the time. Her Republic Commando series was pretty good, as I recall.

Coexist people, coexist. One person's interpretation does not need to be your own. You don't like the way Horus fell? Make up your own version. No one will stop you, I swear. Space Marines will not deep strike onto your front yard and Commissars will not jump out a crowd at McDonald's and summarily execute you. Hard to believe, I know. But oh-so true.

neXus6
16-08-2010, 20:25
Thank you! It's nice to know I'm not the only one who felt the novel was refreshing, at least until it seemed like "oh wait...we need more mareenz". And that was the primary and repetitive criticism..."we want more mareenz".

You can count me into your quiet minority too.
:p

I loved the mixed fantasy/scifi setting, I am much more of a fantasy fan than sci fi, it was something really different. Sadly it wasn't supposed to be different, it was supposed to be a HH/GW book, hence the weird change 2/3s of the way through.
:(

While I'm not a huge fan of many BL books these days I accept them for what they are, the phrase "game novel" mentioned earlier sums it up pretty well. I got bored of the books that are mostly just warporn and before I stopped reading BL books my favourites were certainly those character driven stories about small groups and various hidden wars of politics and intrigue.

The HH books that really stood out for me and appealed to those current tastes of mine are the likes of Mechanicum and the earlier parts of Descent of Angels.

Col. Tartleton
16-08-2010, 20:40
In my own opinion I think in future writings Black Library should remember a few things about the setting.

Its High Fantasy in jackboots and anything else is heresy. That bolter is a repeater crossbow, that lasgun is a bow, and that orbital blast is a trebuchet or a magical plot device. You can spruce it up a bit but at the end of the day that's what it is. As was said about the Dark Angel Books. Marines are not soldiers, they're something else entirely between an Angel and a Teutonic Knight.

Marines aren't people. You screw that you're done.

Everyone is a bad guy.

Freak Ona Leash
16-08-2010, 20:46
In my own opinion I think in future writings Black Library should remember a few things about the setting.

Its High Fantasy in jackboots and anything else is heresy. That bolter is a repeater crossbow, that lasgun is a bow, and that orbital blast is a trebuchet or a magical plot device. You can spruce it up a bit but at the end of the day that's what it is. As was said about the Dark Angel Books. Marines are not soldiers, they're something else entirely between an Angel and a Teutonic Knight.

Marines aren't people. You screw that you're done.

Everyone is a bad guy.

That may be your interpretation of the setting.

It sure as hell isn't mine. Which is fine. That's the great thing about writing; people can write in different ways and interpret things differently and it will still appeal to people.

barrangas
16-08-2010, 20:59
Please don't do that, man. At no point have I come across as "upset". Don't do the passive-aggressive thing of pretending The Other Guy is so much more invested in a discussion than you.

I'll make this as simple as I can. I let Black Library publish my work.

I don't have anything at stake in this and I'm not upset. You can believe this or not, that's your choice. At least now I understand where you're coming from. Well I'm sorry, but I don't like your works. Take that how ever you like it, but it's based off of actually reading them at least half way. If a book doesn't grab me by then I put it down.

Look on the bright side you get to laugh all the way to the bank at least ;)

Freak Ona Leash
16-08-2010, 21:04
I don't have anything at stake in this and I'm not upset. You can believe this or not, that's your choice. At least now I understand where you're coming from. Well I'm sorry, but I don't like your works. Take that how ever you like it, but it's based off of actually reading them at least half way. If a book doesn't grab me by then I put it down.

Look on the bright side you get to laugh all the way to the bank at least ;)

That's fine, but you seemed to call ALL Black Library books objectively bad. You're changing your story. I'm sure Mt. Dembski-Bowden couldn't care less if you dislike his work. In his profession, there have been and will be many more who think the same. But what YOU said was that Black Library publishes bad literature and you then justified that by saying "Well, other people have said worse than I have to other people."

Son of Sanguinius
16-08-2010, 21:17
Mt. Dembski-Bowden

I have trouble finding it on Google Maps... :D :) :p

Freak Ona Leash
16-08-2010, 21:21
I have trouble finding it on Google Maps... :D :) :p

Y'know that story about Atlas? World on his shoulders and all that? Clearly some sort of deep metaphor?

Yeah, well Mt. Dembski-Bowden is like that, but real.

;)

Dead.Blue.Clown
16-08-2010, 21:32
That's fine, but you seemed to call ALL Black Library books objectively bad. You're changing your story. I'm sure Mt. Dembski-Bowden couldn't care less if you dislike his work. In his profession, there have been and will be many more who think the same. But what YOU said was that Black Library publishes bad literature and you then justified that by saying "Well, other people have said worse than I have to other people."

Thanks for that. It was starting to feel a little like trying to explain algebra to a rock.

I think it's a bizarre but unavoidable issue that people assume if you have an interest in something - and take the time to explain how they're wrong - you're suddenly personally invested. They focus on that, rather than what you're actually saying. A shame, but them's the breaks.


Y'know that story about Atlas? World on his shoulders and all that? Clearly some sort of deep metaphor?

Yeah, well Mt. Dembski-Bowden is like that, but real.

;)

The Promised Land...

TheMav80
16-08-2010, 21:39
I am just going to say that I will put my favorite Warhammer books against any other fiction out there. Any of it. Even the so called "classics" everyone is always harping about. Seems like even when people compliment the books they have to start with something like "Well, its not Shakespeare..."

In the words of Mark Twain, "A classic is a book everyone says you should read, but nobody wants to."

Garven Dreis
16-08-2010, 21:39
So based off of multiple experience with multiple BL with several samples I have come to the opinion that the authors aren't very good.

Multiple Black Libraries? Wait what?

But couldn't the same thing be said for Electronic Arts, the Video Game Publisher? They make some shocking games, they make some good games, but because they have made some terrible games, all the game developers who get their games published by EA aren't very good, when it's a lie and you know it.

the.alleycat.uk
16-08-2010, 22:11
It's serialized fiction. There's nothing wrong with that. But those expecting Paradise Lost are in for disappointment. I'm not saying that every one of them is gonna be on the level of Grimm Shado (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/5/22/), but my expectations aren't too high.

As per my intial post... the HH IS pardise lost ;p

Son of Sanguinius
16-08-2010, 22:59
I think he meant multiple BL authors.

barrangas
16-08-2010, 23:06
Multiple Black Libraries? Wait what?

That's was due to having to rely on my laptop touchpad. My mouse crapped out a while ago and the touch pad has an annoying habit of right-clicking when nothing is actually touching the button which leads to it jumping the text cursor around to where the mouse cursor is positioned, selecting sections of text as I'm typing, and activate/closing programs as I'm moving the mouse cursor around. Ctrl Z has been my friend lately, but occassionally something slips through like having "books" being eaten or getting lines of text like "...throoes out side ugh". It's really annoying.


That's fine, but you seemed to call ALL Black Library books objectively bad. You're changing your story. I'm sure Mt. Dembski-Bowden couldn't care less if you dislike his work. In his profession, there have been and will be many more who think the same. But what YOU said was that Black Library publishes bad literature and you then justified that by saying "Well, other people have said worse than I have to other people."

Actually, I haven't changed my story. My issue is with the writers and not the publishing company. My original quote was:


It's really a case of the "truth" never being as exciting as the mystery. Sure if GW had some decent authors doing their writing then they might have had a good run at it, but there would still be people unhappy with it.

Which was specifically directed at the plot-line of Horus's corruption to Chaos, back when this was OT. I then went on and stated, when this comment became an issue, the following:


If authors were afraid of criticism, there would be no literature at all. Trust me, I've seen some rejection letters saved by some published authors, kept solely for the brilliance of their scathing criticism. Calling a GW author sub par isn't likely to hurt their feelings at all.

I started referring to the books I tried to read as GW or BL books in the next post as I figured I'd established my opinion that I've never been impressed by the writing quality. So when I stated something like this:


I've never been able to get through a single GW novel because, IMO, they aren't good books.

I figured "...because of the quality of the writing." would be a given at this point.

So what I've been saying is that BL hasn't been publishing very good authors and that I've never been able to finish a BL book that I've picked up because I haven't liked them. Where you're getting this idea that I'm saying "BL only publishes crap" I don't know. As I've said, I've seen far worse (Forgotten Realms: Spellfire).


I think it's a bizarre but unavoidable issue that people assume if you have an interest in something - and take the time to explain how they're wrong - you're suddenly personally invested.

To me, at least, you've been kind of coming across that you are personally invested. But hey, I apparently HATE and want to see all books published by BL burned. Such are the joys of the Internet :p

Grimbad
16-08-2010, 23:23
Horus was genetically engineered to be the perfect commander. I would hope that he could make important decisions quickly.

Son of Sanguinius
17-08-2010, 00:07
Horus was genetically engineered to be the perfect commander. I would hope that he could make important decisions quickly.

You have my genuine thanks for reminding everyone what the original topic was. :)

sycopat
17-08-2010, 00:21
I felt it was about right. I felt it could have been handled better, but not that it was done badly.

People have mentioned the war with the technocracy as being OTT, I personally just saw it as a field test. They were the closest thing to marines Horus had to test his armies against. Going all out to see what they could do is a pretty sound idea.

Col. Tartleton
17-08-2010, 01:39
To me, at least, you've been kind of coming across that you are personally invested. But hey, I apparently HATE and want to see all books published by BL burned. Such are the joys of the Internet :p

Well seeing as he's probably one of their top writers yeah I could see why he would be bummed a little when you write off all their stuff as garbage.

You'll never convince me that the Commissar Cain books aren't good outside of the context they're made for. Some of Abnetts stuff is legitimate. He's not perfect like any author, but as long as he's not allowed to write marine stuff all as is well. (10 Space Marines winning vs what, 3000 Dark Eldar Warriors! will never be okay, 3,000 PDF troops? Maybe if they lost half the squad. But nope 10 basic marines killed 3000 Dark Eldar.) :cries: :D

Swallow is a decent writer he just takes more liberties with the fluff then people like. Goto writes Game Books, sue him. Bill King did Gotrek and Felix (The defining story of Warhammer) and the Space Wolves series (which is great although not as grimdark as it could be, but they're Spacewolves so he gets away with it). Graham McNeil apparently kinda likes Ultramarines but loves Iron Warriors which is very obvious in his books. Especially since he created a cool "anti hero" Ultramarine who is still more orthodox then most loyalist marines seem to be in the Black Library books.

No one should kill themselves or burn their books (Goto?:p). I'd just like to see them improve as writers.

mob16151
17-08-2010, 01:48
I'd put Angels of Darkness, Lord of the Night, and Soul Hunter up against any sci-fi novel out there.

Col. Tartleton
17-08-2010, 01:49
I am just going to say that I will put my favorite Warhammer books against any other fiction out there. Any of it. Even the so called "classics" everyone is always harping about. Seems like even when people compliment the books they have to start with something like "Well, its not Shakespeare..."

In the words of Mark Twain, "A classic is a book everyone says you should read, but nobody wants to."

I think any common sense person will realize Shakespeare is awful. I will guarantee no one ever talked like that even during the 16th century. Its weird stylized overdone poetry full of bizarre innuendo and dirty puns. But no one can do weird over-stylized poetry with bizarre innuendo and dirty puns like Shakespeare. He's like any great Brit, he takes foreign things that are already quite nice and makes them a little bit better by changing their wording for lols. Imperialism. Brought to you by Shakespeare. All I know is my English Lit Teacher had us read a few famous soliloquies from Hamlet and move on to other authors because I think everyone will agree that Shakespeare is not fun reading unless you're great at analyzing or have someone who can explain it to you. I could figure out what he was saying but not what he meant. Most of the class was confused with what he was saying.

I think Mark Twain was just trying to describe his own books. "Everyone says my books are great but I don't think they've actually read any of them."

Lord Lorne Walkier
17-08-2010, 02:42
Reading threads like this is like watching reality tv.
OT
I think Horus' fall did not happen quick. For me it did start on Cthonia. The evedence was only hinted at but like most of the forshadowing it was over looked . Some will say im reading to much into it.
I think Horus saw that the Emp had created the Primarchs and Astartes from his own flesh as a loyal army and wanted to do the same. In short, Horus was a cloner (an evil thing). The "sons of Horus" in the Luna Wolves are my evedence. That Abaddon was rumored to be a clone son is just the tip. Lil Horus ( must have been a 30k rapper) looked more like Horus then Abaddon. The sons look like Horus in the eye and the "eye of Horus" was their symbol. It was not the gene-seed, Loken, the half- heard and the other non sons got the same seed as the sons.
If his fall felt quick i think maybe you were tricked by the story into thinking Horus was ever a good guy. Every thing he did was aimed at building his own power base. Davin = the last straw.

mob16151
17-08-2010, 02:45
Reading threads like this is like watching reality tv.
OT
I think Horus' fall did not happen quick. For me it did start on Cthonia. The evedence was only hinted at but like most of the forshadowing it was over looked . Some will say im reading to much into it.
I think Horus saw that the Emp had created the Primarchs and Astartes from his own flesh as a loyal army and wanted to do the same. In short, Horus was a cloner (an evil thing). The "sons of Horus" in the Luna Wolves are my evedence. That Abaddon was rumored to be a clone son is just the tip. Lil Horus ( must have been a 30k rapper) looked more like Horus then Abaddon. The sons look like Horus in the eye and the "eye of Horus" was their symbol. It was not the gene-seed, Loken, the half- heard and the other non sons got the same seed as the sons.
If his fall felt quick i think maybe you were tricked by the story into thinking Horus was ever a good guy. Every thing he did was aimed at building his own power base. Davin = the last straw.


Thats a very good point. But where would Horus get access to cloning tech? Is that something that would be common in 30k?

Lord-Caerolion
17-08-2010, 03:35
I think Horus saw that the Emp had created the Primarchs and Astartes from his own flesh as a loyal army and wanted to do the same. In short, Horus was a cloner (an evil thing). The "sons of Horus" in the Luna Wolves are my evedence. That Abaddon was rumored to be a clone son is just the tip. Lil Horus ( must have been a 30k rapper) looked more like Horus then Abaddon. The sons look like Horus in the eye and the "eye of Horus" was their symbol. It was not the gene-seed, Loken, the half- heard and the other non sons got the same seed as the sons.
If his fall felt quick i think maybe you were tricked by the story into thinking Horus was ever a good guy. Every thing he did was aimed at building his own power base. Davin = the last straw.

Once again, geneseed is known to change an implantee's physical appearance to make them appear more like the Primarch. Raven Guard geneseed changes their hair black, even though there's no organ that affects hair colour whatsoever. Salamander geneseed gives them black skin and red eyes. Night Lords geneseed possibly gives black hair, beyond-albino skin, and makes their visible eyes entirely pupil. Other geneseed changes their implantee psychologically, in ways that the geneseed shouldn't. Imperial Fist makes them masochistic. Night Lords and Iron Warrior geneseed is known to cause paranoia. Those are just the things I know off the top of my head, and that we've been told about.

It isn't that Loken wasn't a clone because he didn't start to look like Horus, his geneseed just didn't integrate to that extent. It's like claiming someone who rejects an organ implant is a seperate species, because hey, their body rejected the organ.

HK-47
17-08-2010, 07:21
I think the biggest problem is that we don't really see who Horus was, the opening trilogy is told mainly through Loken's perceptive, and when the Heresy is really getting started Loken was by then already out of the "inner circle". We really needed to see things from Horus eyes from a much earlier age, to see how he interacted with his father, how he really felt about his father. We needed to see the planning stages of the heresy, what his goals where. We don't need to now every detail of his life, but we need to know who Horus was and see his personality change as the Heresy went on. Horus wasn't human, but he still had emotions, he still had dreams, and the transition of Horus, the boy how wanted to make his father dreams a reality, to Horus, the madman that become obsessed with killing his father, should be the center point of the story.

All of this is my opinion of course.

AndrewGPaul
17-08-2010, 07:52
I never said they'd be phased by what you said.

You're absolutely right when you say your views don't phase authors,

Argh. It's early, and I've not had my tea yet, so I'm going to unfairluy single you out; it's faze, not phase.

<deep breath> Ahhh, that's better. Sorry. :)


Bill King did Gotrek and Felix (The defining story of Warhammer) and the Space Wolves series (which is great although not as grimdark as it could be, but they're Spacewolves so he gets away with it).

To me ther Space Wolf and Felix and Gotrk novels are exactly as "grimdark" as they should be. There's too much grim and not enough humour in a lot of the background these days. The Horus Heresy series is a prime contributor to that, but I'll give it a pass due to the nature of the series.

Dead.Blue.Clown
17-08-2010, 08:07
Curiously, I came into this thread thinking Horus flipped a bit too fast for my liking, and have since been appeased a l'il by the people pointing out that:

- He used to flip way, way faster in older lore.
- There are nuances at play that aren't immediately obvious from the text.

But still, it's a niggle of unease for me. Not necessarily because of the way False Gods is written, either. I'm having trouble pinning down exactly why my skin itches over it, but it seems a combo of the way the opening trilogy played out in the final arc, and the hybrid POVs between Horus and his subordinates. The latter was a stronger angle, I reckon.


Argh. It's early, and I've not had my tea yet, so I'm going to unfairluy single you out; it's faze, not phase.

<deep breath> Ahhh, that's better. Sorry. :)

The mistakes we make, when we quote directly. Alas and woe.

My one of those is when people say "baited breath". Something in my skull goes "TO THE REPLY BUTTON".

AndrewGPaul
17-08-2010, 08:46
It's at this point I should point out that there's no such word as "unfairluy". I have been struck by the curse of the pedantic grammar nazi. :) As for the sentence "To me ther Space Wolf and Felix and Gotrk novels are exactly as "grimdark" as they should be.", I have no excuse.

Iuris
17-08-2010, 09:12
I wish they'd given him maybe a year or two for his pride and nature to simmer before he falls. Davin should only plant a seed that has to grow, not an immediate conversion. Same should apply to the legion - they should take far more time to switch their allegiance to Horus above Emperor...

Well, as always, I mentally censor everything I read. Makes for books more to my liking :)

Lord Lorne Walkier
17-08-2010, 09:38
Once again, geneseed is known to change an implantee's physical appearance to make them appear more like the Primarch. Raven Guard geneseed changes their hair black, even though there's no organ that affects hair colour whatsoever. Salamander geneseed gives them black skin and red eyes. Night Lords geneseed possibly gives black hair, beyond-albino skin, and makes their visible eyes entirely pupil. Other geneseed changes their implantee psychologically, in ways that the geneseed shouldn't. Imperial Fist makes them masochistic. Night Lords and Iron Warrior geneseed is known to cause paranoia. Those are just the things I know off the top of my head, and that we've been told about.

It isn't that Loken wasn't a clone because he didn't start to look like Horus, his geneseed just didn't integrate to that extent. It's like claiming someone who rejects an organ implant is a seperate species, because hey, their body rejected the organ.

The examples you point out are different then the similarities the "sons" had for a couple reasons.

1) the Salamanders skin change along with the Space Wolf / Blood Angel Long fangs, all effect the entire Legion. I don't think the Raven Guard got messed up until after Corax tried to fast track the Legions recovery but still it effected the entire Legion. The changes you talk about in the IF, IW and NL i am unfamiliar with but still i would guess every one was effected. The Luna Wolves before Horus was found did not become "Sons" And only some of those recruited from Cthonia were. It is not even like most were sons and a small % were not. I think the sons were the minority.

2) The changes you bring up that did come from gene-seed are gradual. It never says that lil Horus once looked different then he changed. It never talks about anyone wanting the change to overcome them so they could advance quicker in the Legion, as it was the sons who were in charge for the most part. Some were sons some were not. Loken over came this handicap to reach the inner circle. And it is not like you just needed to wait because the half-heard was the oldest and a non son.

3) The Sons looked like Horus in the face. Like your brother looks like you because you have the same mother and dad. Not because their skin was the same color or they all had long teeth. Their eyes did not just have the same color as Horus but were the same shape and placed the same way in respect to their mouth and nose. Hastur Sejanus, "He had widely set eyes that glittered silver, and a firm straight nose that mirrored that of the Luna Wolves Primarch Horus." Loken and the other non sons Looked nothing like Horus. Not one bit. Its not like they got the smile but not the eyes or nose. They looked like they did before the got their gene-seed.

4) When other Legions are described the writer goes out of their way to say that this one was skinny but has a fat head or that one is short but has a strong jaw. They might all have long teeth or white hair but their differences is what sets them apart. With the Sons it is the opposite. They go out of the way to say they look the similar but give no real detail other then their faces look the same and in particular "widely spaced eyes". Like the process of becoming a Astartes pushed their Eyes apart? Just some of the lucky ones but not all? You might think the repeated mention their eyes are the same and Horus using the Eye as his Legion's (Sons of Horus) symbol is just a coincidence. I see them giving hints to something they can't come right out and say. Why even mention that there are sons and non-sons, if it is unimportant? Why have a character named lil' Horus, if its just a unimportant detail? Why keep saying that Abaddon is rumored to be a clone in every write up starting with his first appearance?

As for Horus's access to cloning tech, he spent along time as the only son of the Emperor. Even though it was a big nono to clone i think the Emperor might have had a lab some ware that Horus could have found. Or maybe it was something the Cthonians did. Other then it being a Hive world and close to Terra we don't know much about it.

the.alleycat.uk
17-08-2010, 10:42
Curiously, I came into this thread thinking Horus flipped a bit too fast for my liking, and have since been appeased a l'il by the people pointing out that:

- He used to flip way, way faster in older lore.
- There are nuances at play that aren't immediately obvious from the text.

But still, it's a niggle of unease for me. Not necessarily because of the way False Gods is written, either. I'm having trouble pinning down exactly why my skin itches over it, but it seems a combo of the way the opening trilogy played out in the final arc, and the hybrid POVs between Horus and his subordinates. The latter was a stronger angle, I reckon.



The mistakes we make, when we quote directly. Alas and woe.

My one of those is when people say "baited breath". Something in my skull goes "TO THE REPLY BUTTON".

It's 'bated' right [as in abated?]

And i'm with you on that 'itchy' feeling which almost perfectly describes how I feel about it.

I've thought about it quite a bit and arrived at the conclusions in my other post.

I kind of feel that one of the issues with the HH series is what seems like a deliberate decision to keep the primarchs at arms length [Inscruitable and enigmatic guy is inscrutible and enigmatic.] Which I can fully understand [to much detail about a myth and legend will diminish its status as a myth and legend.]

The downside of this is that I think its caused problems with fully rounded characterisation. We're not given enough to fully understand motives, drives etc. In my case this leaves me a little unsatisfied as you can never really be sure if the whole narrative is internally consistant.


I think the biggest problem is that we don't really see who Horus was, the opening trilogy is told mainly through Loken's perceptive, and when the Heresy is really getting started Loken was by then already out of the "inner circle". We really needed to see things from Horus eyes from a much earlier age, to see how he interacted with his father, how he really felt about his father. We needed to see the planning stages of the heresy, what his goals where. We don't need to now every detail of his life, but we need to know who Horus was and see his personality change as the Heresy went on. Horus wasn't human, but he still had emotions, he still had dreams, and the transition of Horus, the boy how wanted to make his father dreams a reality, to Horus, the madman that become obsessed with killing his father, should be the center point of the story.

All of this is my opinion of course.

See, this is what I mean. I don't think it would need as much detail as you suggest but certainly more than is present. Again, I fairly strongly feel that what was lacking was the characterisation that would allow the audience to see the fall of Hours as both a tragedy and consitant with his character in that set of situations.

Nazguire
17-08-2010, 10:57
The examples you point out are different then the similarities the "sons" had for a couple reasons.

1) the Salamanders skin change along with the Space Wolf / Blood Angel Long fangs, all effect the entire Legion. I don't think the Raven Guard got messed up until after Corax tried to fast track the Legions recovery but still it effected the entire Legion. The changes you talk about in the IF, IW and NL i am unfamiliar with but still i would guess every one was effected. The Luna Wolves before Horus was found did not become "Sons" And only some of those recruited from Cthonia were. It is not even like most were sons and a small % were not. I think the sons were the minority.

2) The changes you bring up that did come from gene-seed are gradual. It never says that lil Horus once looked different then he changed. It never talks about anyone wanting the change to overcome them so they could advance quicker in the Legion, as it was the sons who were in charge for the most part. Some were sons some were not. Loken over came this handicap to reach the inner circle. And it is not like you just needed to wait because the half-heard was the oldest and a non son.

3) The Sons looked like Horus in the face. Like your brother looks like you because you have the same mother and dad. Not because their skin was the same color or they all had long teeth. Their eyes did not just have the same color as Horus but were the same shape and placed the same way in respect to their mouth and nose. Hastur Sejanus, "He had widely set eyes that glittered silver, and a firm straight nose that mirrored that of the Luna Wolves Primarch Horus." Loken and the other non sons Looked nothing like Horus. Not one bit. Its not like they got the smile but not the eyes or nose. They looked like they did before the got their gene-seed.

4) When other Legions are described the writer goes out of their way to say that this one was skinny but has a fat head or that one is short but has a strong jaw. They might all have long teeth or white hair but their differences is what sets them apart. With the Sons it is the opposite. They go out of the way to say they look the similar but give no real detail other then their faces look the same and in particular "widely spaced eyes". Like the process of becoming a Astartes pushed their Eyes apart? Just some of the lucky ones but not all? You might think the repeated mention their eyes are the same and Horus using the Eye as his Legion's (Sons of Horus) symbol is just a coincidence. I see them giving hints to something they can't come right out and say. Why even mention that there are sons and non-sons, if it is unimportant? Why have a character named lil' Horus, if its just a unimportant detail? Why keep saying that Abaddon is rumored to be a clone in every write up starting with his first appearance?

As for Horus's access to cloning tech, he spent along time as the only son of the Emperor. Even though it was a big nono to clone i think the Emperor might have had a lab some ware that Horus could have found. Or maybe it was something the Cthonians did. Other then it being a Hive world and close to Terra we don't know much about it.


I think the entire idea of the 'Sons of Horus' was that they were a perfect example of Horus' pride and arrogance, even before his betrayal. It says in the text that before Loken, only the Sons were part of the Mournival and that generally Sons advanced in the Legion.

Why would that be so? Not because of some being clones or anything. Because of Horus' pride. He (Horus) flattered himself by surrounding himself with those that looked like him. That thought like him, and that acted like him. Even though he says otherwise, sycophants were what he preferred at best, even in his Mournival (which he never listened to anyway...) and doggedly loyal at worst.

Look at Abaddon. He is so similar to Horus physically, and so loyal to Horus, that people thought he was a clone son of Horus. And he's the First Captain. (Not to mention his skills and abilities of course).

The Mournival wasn't even really listened to, it was more used as a political device, to make it seem as if the Legion was of one mind, and not just following Horus' orders blindly (which the majority did out of loyalty, which is the whole point of the opening trilogy)

Horus used the Sons of Horus to boost his own ego, and to impress his own attitudes upon his Legion and Expeditionary force. They were favoured because they looked and acted like him. No different than friends of the boss in the corporate world advancing quicker than non-friends.

Pushkin
17-08-2010, 11:09
Hmm reading through the thread its clear that there are two main topics being discussed in this thread: how quick did Horus flip and are all Black Library authors terrible.

I think there’s a connection here. Essentially when the Black library “commissioned” the Horus Heresy they would have given some sort of brief/background to the authors. Which would at some point have included the points “Marines are basically personality-less killing machines completely detached from the imperium of man and they protect” and “the Horus Heresy is essentially based on Paradise Lost by Milton generally accepted to be one of the greatest works of literature ever written”

The authors were faced with an impossible task, to make a tragedy your tragic hero (Horus) needs a tragic flaw (Othello= Jealousy, Hamlet=Indecisiveness, Macbeth=Ambition etc. ) but Horus is not human, he is astartes and therefore can’t have a flaw.

Bearing this in mind there were really 3 ways in which they could describe his betrayal:

1. A character driven account of Horus’s descent on a par with the literary greats.. This would be criticised because he would be a man not a space marine and certainly not a primarch
2. A dues ex machine, an supernatural character or item that solves the problem. Criticised because the flip is too fast, or comes out of nowhere
3. No account given. E.g. Horus’s craft sucked into the Eye of Terror but comes back a year later the same… but different
Criticised because you don’t know what happened

I enjoyed the black library books, some more than others, and I am critical of some of the books/authors or particular story devices, but I don’t think the blanket criticism of BL authors has been justified by any of the comments so far.

Nazguire
17-08-2010, 11:25
I found Horus' fall entirely in keeping with the background.

Fell ill on Davin- check
Woke up after a near life-ending illness and seemed stronger than ever, but different-check
Decided to DESTROY ALL HUMANS- check


The opening trilogy just filled in logical details. How did he get ill? A virus that can kill a Primarch is pretty far-fetched when they spend an entire book (and there is 20 years of previous material besides...) detailing how incredibly Goku-awesome the Primarchs are.

So they use a Chaos tainted sword using a plot device of a personal friend of Horus going traitor and calling him out. Plausible, considering Horus' pride and that Horus' reputation is on the line if he didn't respond in kind.

Then we wonder how come he came back a traitor after being healed on Davin. If the background stresses it (the sickness) can almost kill a Primarch, what hope would an Astartes Apothecary have in curing him? Indeed, we're treated to a scene where the Sons of Horus Apothecaries almost get hammered into the dirt by Abaddon because they are completely baffled as to where to even start.

So they put Horus in a Chaos-temple with Erebus (who has been conveniently used as the main villain of the opening trilogy, the real traitor of the Horus Heresy) and he is pounded with Chaos visions that appeal to Horus' arrogance and complete belief in his own superiority.

And just to put the argument he was demonically possessed, which would be worse then a magic sword (cough... Fulgrim...) we see Magnus rock up, try to convince him, unveil Erebus as the traitor he is, and we still see Horus turn bad. Which shows us that Horus really wanted to do this, and that his decisions were backed up by his ambition and ego. It's not like he was turned to this path involuntarily by a demon, that'd be silly for a Primarch considering the whole time we're shown they are almost gods (cough... Fulgrim...cough)

All this does is reinforce previous background. And explains certain things that made some of us go "Huh?".

Lord-Caerolion
17-08-2010, 11:31
1) the Salamanders skin change along with the Space Wolf / Blood Angel Long fangs, all effect the entire Legion. I don't think the Raven Guard got messed up until after Corax tried to fast track the Legions recovery but still it effected the entire Legion. The changes you talk about in the IF, IW and NL i am unfamiliar with but still i would guess every one was effected. The Luna Wolves before Horus was found did not become "Sons" And only some of those recruited from Cthonia were. It is not even like most were sons and a small % were not. I think the sons were the minority.

It doesn't change the fact that geneseed is proven to have unpredicted side-effects, which can include physical changes to come to look like the Primarch, and that the strength of this change depends on the geneseed in question. Iron Warrior geneseed gives a stronger likelyhood of physical mutation occuring in the limbs. Raven Guard seed changes them in places (hair/skin) to entirely reflect the Primarch, but leaves others (face/eyes) unchanged. Luna Wolf geneseed seems to be something like this. It has a likelihood of widening the face.


2) The changes you bring up that did come from gene-seed are gradual. It never says that lil Horus once looked different then he changed. It never talks about anyone wanting the change to overcome them so they could advance quicker in the Legion, as it was the sons who were in charge for the most part. Some were sons some were not. Loken over came this handicap to reach the inner circle. And it is not like you just needed to wait because the half-heard was the oldest and a non son.

It never mentions that he didn't either. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Similarly, the fact that Iacton was not affected in no way proves your idea, as it implies that for it to be a physical mutation brought on by the geneseed, it has to affect them all, when that isn't the case. It could simply be that Iacton's body didn't accept the implants to the extent that others did.


3) The Sons looked like Horus in the face. Like your brother looks like you because you have the same mother and dad. Not because their skin was the same color or they all had long teeth. Their eyes did not just have the same color as Horus but were the same shape and placed the same way in respect to their mouth and nose. Hastur Sejanus, "He had widely set eyes that glittered silver, and a firm straight nose that mirrored that of the Luna Wolves Primarch Horus." Loken and the other non sons Looked nothing like Horus. Not one bit. Its not like they got the smile but not the eyes or nose. They looked like they did before the got their gene-seed.

And what are you basing that assumption on? Give me a page reference that states Sejanus looked like that before he was a Neophyte, or that Abaddon did, or Little Horus, or any of the Sons.

This isn't normal biology. You can't use an example of real-life siblings to explain the similarities the Sons shared with their Primarch because real-life siblings don't look the same because of the implantation of foreign organs, or possibly cloning.


4) When other Legions are described the writer goes out of their way to say that this one was skinny but has a fat head or that one is short but has a strong jaw. They might all have long teeth or white hair but their differences is what sets them apart. With the Sons it is the opposite. They go out of the way to say they look the similar but give no real detail other then their faces look the same and in particular "widely spaced eyes". Like the process of becoming a Astartes pushed their Eyes apart? Just some of the lucky ones but not all? You might think the repeated mention their eyes are the same and Horus using the Eye as his Legion's (Sons of Horus) symbol is just a coincidence. I see them giving hints to something they can't come right out and say. Why even mention that there are sons and non-sons, if it is unimportant? Why have a character named lil' Horus, if its just a unimportant detail? Why keep saying that Abaddon is rumored to be a clone in every write up starting with his first appearance?

Well, the process of becoming an Astartes causes massive physical changes, including skeletal, so why is it so hard to accept that it could change the skull? We know that some geneseeds affect some implantees more than others (Iron Warrior limb mutation, Thousand Sons mutation, Imperial Fist masochism), why not the Luna Wolves?

As to your other questions: 1) To give the Luna Wolves a gimmich as a Legion, and make Loken more special. 2) For characterisation. 3) If all Sons are clones, why is it just Abaddon we hear about being a possible clone, and why does Little Horus look more like Horus than Abaddon does? Surely if they're clones they'll be physically identical? Why does Horus keep having non-clones brought in? Surely if he can produce the clones on the scale to have them be a recognisable faction within the Legion he can make them all Sons, even if it means lowering the Legion size slightly. After all, if he's doing it simply for power, then risking an eventual split like what happened is something you'd try to avoid?

Instead, we're told that the Luna Wolves have many members who share physical characteristics of their Primarch, something which we know has precedence amongst the other Legions, and we know that these similarities are to different extents (after all, Little Horus is called that because he looks almost exactly like Horus. If they're all clones, they'd all look identical, so there would be both no need to point it out, and no difference between any other Son).
What we don't have is an Abaddon who looks identical to Little Horus who looks identical to Sejanus who looks identical to Torgaddon, who are both all Sons, and yet are capable of being told apart without looking at what scars they have where, which is not something we'd see if they were clones of Horus. Just to clear up, for them to be clones, they need to look absolutely identical to Horus. It is clear that they don't. Therefore, they cannot be clones. Abaddon cannot be a clone, as Little Horus looks more like the person he's supposed to be a clone of; once again, impossible to happen with an actual clone.
Their voices are different, and they all have Cthonian accents, something yet again impossible if their vocal chords are all identical, excusing injury.


As for Horus's access to cloning tech, he spent along time as the only son of the Emperor. Even though it was a big nono to clone i think the Emperor might have had a lab some ware that Horus could have found. Or maybe it was something the Cthonians did. Other then it being a Hive world and close to Terra we don't know much about it.

The problem is that we have so, so many things pointing against the clone theory, and the only things in favour is the rumour that Abaddon is a clone, and the fact that some Luna Wolves share similarities with their Primarch, a trend that exists in other Legions without cloning being involved.


but Horus is not human, he is astartes and therefore canít have a flaw.

This is an excuse I keep seeing, but really can't see the reasons behind. Yes, Horus isn't a proper human, however he still has emotions, and is therefore vulnerable. To me, the tragedy of the Primarchs is that they were flawed, that they did have their own faults and foibles, and that those led to their downfall.
For several of the Traitor Primarchs, including Horus, this flaw is a desire for their Fathers love. Horus Rising shows this. Horus took on more and more duties, eventually becoming the Warmaster, because he couldn't fail his Father. This is why so many people think his turn is so quick, because they only think his discussion with Erebus is where he turned. Instead, he was vulnerable and racked with self-doubt for a long time before that. He saw the position of Warmaster as too much for him, and yet the Emperor wasn't there to help him. Over time, he begins to see this as the Emperor almost abandoning him, until Erebus turns up, and tell him exactly what his darkest thoughts had already explained.

the.alleycat.uk
17-08-2010, 11:36
we see Magnus rock up, try to convince him, unveil Erebus as the traitor he is, and we still see Horus turn bad. Which shows us that Horus really wanted to do this, and that his decisions were backed up by his ambition and ego. It's not like he was turned to this path involuntarily by a demon, that'd be silly for a Primarch considering the whole time we're shown they are almost gods (cough... Fulgrim...cough)



See, this is one of the recurring tragic themes. Because the Emperor didn't tell the Primarchs about chaos a bunch of things happened. In this case Horus disregards Magnus because magnus is using his evil sorcerers powers again [after daddy said not to.]

This isn't so much Horus deliberately choosing to go with the bad side as listening to the wrong party due to his mistrust of warp powers because the emperor had said everyone should stop using them.

Magnus has more pathos going on in the HH than a motherf**ker.

TrooperTino
17-08-2010, 11:38
What if the HH would have been ONLY described from the view of underlings, not knowing what is really happening? With absolutly NO insight in Horus, Fulgrim etc? Show the primarchs only like they show the emperor... only hints or how godlike they are to their followers. But nothing like "horus regrets xyz... or fulgrim likes..." Legion was very good I think because the most infos we get are from humans. Well, humans more or less, but theres very few insight in the primarch himself, which is a good thing to me.

ashc
17-08-2010, 11:42
I actually think they are making quite a big mistake by telling the tale of the Horus Heresy; by all means, have stories set in the Heresy, but I think it is folly to be setting the myth of the Heresy in stone, and often from an omnipotent viewpoint.

Nazguire
17-08-2010, 11:42
See, this is one of the recurring tragic themes. Because the Emperor didn't tell the Primarchs about chaos a bunch of things happened. In this case Horus disregards Magnus because magnus is using his evil sorcerers powers again [after daddy said not to.]

This isn't so much Horus deliberately choosing to go with the bad side as listening to the wrong party due to his mistrust of warp powers because the emperor had said everyone should stop using them.

Magnus has more pathos going on in the HH than a motherf**ker.

Yet Erebus was using Warp powers too. Horus acknowledges this. This isn't the reason. Whilst I sort of agree the Emperor should have spoken to some extent about Chaos (which he did, but didn't go into details, see Legion/Horus Rising/A Thousand Sons) this isn't the reason Horus didn't trust Magnus, otherwise he would have dismissed Erebus too.

The reason was because, ultimately, Horus wanted to do his own thing. Quite simply. Just like today, where the Islamic extremist freedom fighters say it's to do with Islam and they know best, when it's to do with power-hungry ambition and pride, Horus is the same.

He was ambitious, was sick of being in daddy's shadow, needed a reason to run with, to convince himself he was doing the right thing and Erebus gave it to him.

Sure, he says its because the Emperor wanted to become a God etc, but even his Legion would not accept him saying "I want to be Emperor, because I'm better, and no other reason" (in effect).

And Horus is still a decent guy in many aspects. We can see this when the Emperor kills him, he realises what he has done and cries. So he himself would need some sort of reason to make sure his morals aren't hurt either.

The Chaos dreams and Erebus and all that, are ultimately, just an excuse for Horus to go off the rails. Nothing much more than that I believe.

TrooperTino
17-08-2010, 11:49
I actually think they are making quite a big mistake by telling the tale of the Horus Heresy; by all means, have stories set in the Heresy, but I think it is folly to be setting the myth of the Heresy in stone, and often from an omnipotent viewpoint.

That is exactly what I mean :) its really hard to tell what you want in a language you learned from monkeys and the internet :D

ashc
17-08-2010, 11:53
That is exactly what I mean :) its really hard to tell what you want in a language you learned from monkeys and the internet :D

I thought this was probably what you were saying :) yes, perhaps the Heresy should be more alluded to as the 'bigger picture' and not so direct, have more stories based on grunts on the ground finding out the true nature of whats going on, as opposed to more tales of evil swords doing all the hard work :rolleyes:

TrooperTino
17-08-2010, 12:00
I thought this was probably what you were saying :) yes, perhaps the Heresy should be more alluded to as the 'bigger picture' and not so direct, have more stories based on grunts on the ground finding out the true nature of whats going on, as opposed to more tales of evil swords doing all the hard work :rolleyes:

Yes it was :) there would still be enough room to shed some light on events we know next to nothing about. Like it is now, the primarchs lost very much of their "uberness" to me... and became some kids in godlike bodys.

But I want to say one thing more.... I think the autors have a very hard job with the HH series, with expectations so high.

gwarsh41
17-08-2010, 13:27
Ooooh, HH thread.
*pulls pants up over stomach*

"oh me oh my I hate the HH books, they cant write at all. I wipe my butt with ancient books of the highest caliber carved in stone"
I like HH threads, but I cannot stand the haters.

I enjoy the books, I also agree that at first impression, horus went to chaos too fast. Then after a bit of thought, I still think he was easily persuaded. Although I think Magnus would have changed faster and not known it if he had been chosen.

LordLucan
18-08-2010, 22:15
Maybe, because Primarch's mind work quicker than normal humans', he considered and agonised over his decision for a much shorter time than a slow-thinking normal human would? Thus it seems like he decided quickly, when in fact he deliberated many many factors, but just at incredible speed.

Primarchs can create empires and bureaucracies in a couple of years, and completely change the culture of planets in a similar time.

They just function at a speed above humanity imo.

Son of Sanguinius
19-08-2010, 00:02
Maybe, because Primarch's mind work quicker than normal humans', he considered and agonised over his decision for a much shorter time than a slow-thinking normal human would? Thus it seems like he decided quickly, when in fact he deliberated many many factors, but just at incredible speed.

Primarchs can create empires and bureaucracies in a couple of years, and completely change the culture of planets in a similar time.

They just function at a speed above humanity imo.

A very good point, but I'd be wary about this being used too often. Without care, too many things can be explained by "Oh, well, he's a Primarch."

Col. Tartleton
19-08-2010, 00:26
False Gods in Summary

*Horus sits down to tea with his Mournival.*

Horus Sr.: I need you gentlemen to be forward with me, I've been considering starting a civil war for about twelve minutes now and I want your opinions on it.

Ezekyle: As Primus inter pares I advise we kill them all.

Tarik: You always say that. "Diplomacy shows weakness", "If we wait for diplomacy to fail we lose our element of surprise", "damn the women and children full speed ahead", "This top knot makes me look like an idiot." I agree with you on that last one mate.

Ezekyle: One of these days Alice, straight to the Moon!"

Horus Jr.: I've never known you to be wrong my Lord.

Horus Sr.: I don't even know why I bother asking you little Horus. *shakes head* What about you Loken you seem troubled? Yay? Nay?

Ezykyle: Three out of five says yes. We don't really need Torgaddon or Loken's opinions.

Horus Sr.: I'm still interested in what he has to say. He may sway me.

Garviel: Were we talking? Sorry, this book is simply enthralling.

Ezykyle: You dishonor Sejanus with your womanly books and your effeminate ways!

Horus Sr.: I read you idiot.

Tarik: Caught you now you big idiot.

Garviel: Yeah I think its a really bad idea. Even if we succeed we'll have severely weakened the Imperium and if we lose it simply doesn't bear thinking about.

Horus Sr.: We'll settle it in a coin toss. Heads I forget about it? Tails we kill the Emperor?

*flips coin*

Horus Sr.: There you go. Man your battle stations! He's gonna get it now!

Garviel: Awwww.

Nazguire
19-08-2010, 02:07
False Gods in Summary


*Horus sits down to tea with his Mournival.*

Horus Sr.: I need you gentlemen to be forward with me, I've been considering starting a civil war for about twelve minutes now and I want your opinions on it.

Ezekyle: As Primus inter pares I advise we kill them all.

Tarik: You always say that. "Diplomacy shows weakness", "If we wait for diplomacy to fail we lose our element of surprise", "damn the women and children full speed ahead", "This top knot makes me look like an idiot." I agree with you on that last one mate.

Ezekyle: One of these days Alice, straight to the Moon!"

Horus Jr.: I've never known you to be wrong my Lord.

Horus Sr.: I don't even know why I bother asking you little Horus. *shakes head* What about you Loken you seem troubled? Yay? Nay?

Ezykyle: Three out of five says yes. We don't really need Torgaddon or Loken's opinions.

Horus Sr.: I'm still interested in what he has to say. He may sway me.

Garviel: Were we talking? Sorry, this book is simply enthralling.

Ezykyle: You dishonor Sejanus with your womanly books and your effeminate ways!

Horus Sr.: I read you idiot.

Tarik: Caught you now you big idiot.

Garviel: Yeah I think its a really bad idea. Even if we succeed we'll have severely weakened the Imperium and if we lose it simply doesn't bear thinking about.

Horus Sr.: We'll settle it in a coin toss. Heads I forget about it? Tails we kill the Emperor?

*flips coin*

Horus Sr.: There you go. Man your battle stations! He's gonna get it now!

Garviel: Awwww.

Much prefers your version of False Gods.

Now, Galaxy in Flames if you please. :)

Col. Tartleton
19-08-2010, 02:55
If you insist :)


GALAXY IN FLAMES: A SUMMARY EXECUTION!

Horus Sr.: As my first act as Evil Dictator everyone who wants to be a hero can get in these newfangled drop pod things and lead the attack against the traitors.

*strokes his brand Evil van Dyke (tm) beard*

Ezykyle: But aren't we the tra--

Horus Jr.: Shut up you idiot, Loken will hear you.

Ezykyle: Oops, sorry.

Garviel: Hear what now?

Horus Sr: I need you and Torgaddon to lead the attack against the traitors. I'm still not feeling so well in the aftermath of that whole near death experience.

Garviel: Why aren't Ezykyle and Aximand going?

Horus Sr.: Look you stupid *******! Do you want it or not?

Garviel: Jeez. Fine.

Ezykyle: Idiot.

*Loken flips him off*

....

Tarik: Its a trap!

Garviel: I thought I smelled a fish!

Tarik: I think you mean a rat.

Erlen: BLOOD FOR THE... Oh I give up.

Saul: Guys its a trap!

Tarik: No **** Sherlock!

Saul: They're going to bombard us from orbit. +Its the only way to be sure+

Lucius: Backstab! *Stabs Solomon* P.S. I'm Eeeeviiillll!

Saul: Yes because I couldn't figure that out!

Nathaniel: Dude I stole a ship! I'm going to warn the Emperor.

Garviel: What about us!

Ezykyle: Sup tinkerbell!

*Epic Duel*

Garviel: Garrrg I'm so wounded and close to death!

Ezykyle: I'll send you a get well card so you can READ IT! AHAHAHAHAHAHA!

*Loken flips him off*

Garviel: Everythings going black!

*Orbital Bombardment* :confused:

Nazguire
19-08-2010, 07:31
Whilst I understand that marriage between two blokes is frowned upon, I'd be tempted to break the rules with Col. Tartleton after that prose. Well Done.

BUt I see what you did thar.

As SoS said, just because Horus is a Primarch, doesn't mean we can just hand wave away decision making to 'he's a Primarch.' He is still meant to be human to an extent.

Does anyone else agree that the Mournival was naught more, at its core, than an ego-boost for Horus?

Imperialis_Dominatus
19-08-2010, 21:39
Colonel Tartleton, sir, that was genius.


My one of those is when people say "baited breath". Something in my skull goes "TO THE REPLY BUTTON".

For me it's when people say anything implying that C'tan eat, consume, or otherwise have any interaction with a soul. FFFFFFFFFFFF-

Col. Tartleton
19-08-2010, 21:55
I thought everyone knows the warp is their anathema? The only traffickers in souls are Dark Eldar and Chaos. Slaanesh is the Eater of Souls. Nightbringer eats the energy of stars and urinates matter in the form of nebula.

The Necrons are harvesting matter not souls. Their guns are like vacuum cleaners that convert matter into energy as far as I can recall. What they do with it makes about as much sense as what the Nids do with all their biofuel. Or how superman flies. You know, not very much sense but very cool.

I think they're trying to get Americans off foreign oil. Clearly they're the good guys. Either that or its like the Matrix where they're using people for an energy supply... Oh god I see a fan fic.

Son of Sanguinius
19-08-2010, 22:08
I thought everyone knows the warp is their anathema? The only traffickers in souls are Dark Eldar and Chaos. Slaanesh is the Eater of Souls. Nightbringer eats the energy of stars and urinates matter in the form of nebula.

I always liked the notion that sufficient energy in the material realm can snuff out/dissipate/whatever small amounts of warp energy in the same fashion that physical material cannot maintain its structure in the warp. So a C'tan could consume a soul and obliterate any semblance of identity or form it had, and the C'tan would be far too powerful to harmed by a single soul. After all, weren't the C'tan consuming Old Ones in the War?


The Necrons are harvesting matter not souls. Their guns are like vacuum cleaners that convert matter into energy as far as I can recall. What they do with it makes about as much sense as what the Nids do with all their biofuel. Or how superman flies. You know, not very much sense but very cool.

You know, with the help of an amazing form of fictional solar energy, I was able to biologically explain Superman's abilities. It's rather easy if the energy can be used to maintain the strength of molecular bonds under otherwise annihilative stresses. ;)


I think they're trying to get Americans off foreign oil. Clearly they're the good guys. Either that or its like the Matrix where they're using people for an energy supply... Oh god I see a fan fic.

I wonder what kind of deranged mind would create the scenario of 40k for the simulation programming of the Matrix. :D

Col. Tartleton
20-08-2010, 00:10
I always liked the notion that sufficient energy in the material realm can snuff out/dissipate/whatever small amounts of warp energy in the same fashion that physical material cannot maintain its structure in the warp. So a C'tan could consume a soul and obliterate any semblance of identity or form it had, and the C'tan would be far too powerful to harmed by a single soul. After all, weren't the C'tan consuming Old Ones in the War?



You know, with the help of an amazing form of fictional solar energy, I was able to biologically explain Superman's abilities. It's rather easy if the energy can be used to maintain the strength of molecular bonds under otherwise annihilative stresses. ;)



I wonder what kind of deranged mind would create the scenario of 40k for the simulation programming of the Matrix. :D

I believe the old ones are organic. But my theory of their C'tan's vampire tendencies as being based on the conversion of energy into matter and vice versa explains why they're so ethereal. They're like a fire in reverse. Instead of matter being turned into energy through a chemical process they're converting the radiation into the molecules they need to eat. Think your average house plant. The excess energy is vented off as well as their waste products which amount to the smoking ectoplasma they seem to be dripping in the art...

Off Topic: Tell me more about your superman idea. I'm attempting to write my own version of a Lovecraft (for example Ra's Al Ghul is being merged with Abdul Alhazred) inspired Batman (possibly in comic format at some point if I ever get a drawing tablet) and superman will come into play at some point. I'm trying to figure where he fits on the scale between Human and Cthulhu... In my favor is the fact that every place in the Cthulhu mythos is within an hours drive from where I live (The north shore in Mass). Arkham is Salem-Danvers area. Gotham is Boston. Innsmuth is Newburyport (where I used to live.) Add some dark lighting and some gaslights (1920s) and now everything is adequately grimmer and darker.

FabricatorGeneralMike
20-08-2010, 01:31
@ Col. Tartleton; You Sir should kill Graham McNeill, drain out his blood and using some grimdark method become him so that finally there would be a good Graham McNeill book. ( Except for A Thousand Sons....that was good =o] )

I just wish I could siggy all that. 11/10 =o]

Could you do Fulgrim next, I know how it starts;

Fulgrim * Cool I found this sword*

Fulgrim * ahhhh its making me do bad things altho im not really shure about somethings*

Fulgrim* Hey Ferrius, wanna join our rebellion, its where are the cool Primarchs are, we even have a smoke pit*

Ferrius * hell no, im going to tell daddy*

Fulgrim * over my dead body*

Fulgrim * aghhhh I killed my best brother in a duel and now I don't want to remember *

Evil Sword * I can make all that pain go away (insert evil laugh here)*

Fulgrim * wow this sucks, guess that will teach me to pick up cool looking swords...*


Hummm, sorry, how about doing FotE next? =o]

Son of Sanguinius
20-08-2010, 02:15
I believe the old ones are organic. But my theory of their C'tan's vampire tendencies as being based on the conversion of energy into matter and vice versa explains why they're so ethereal. They're like a fire in reverse. Instead of matter being turned into energy through a chemical process they're converting the radiation into the molecules they need to eat. Think your average house plant. The excess energy is vented off as well as their waste products which amount to the smoking ectoplasma they seem to be dripping in the art...

Does your plant example apply to the C'tan or the Old Ones?


Off Topic: Tell me more about your superman idea. I'm attempting to write my own version of a Lovecraft (for example Ra's Al Ghul is being merged with Abdul Alhazred) inspired Batman (possibly in comic format at some point if I ever get a drawing tablet) and superman will come into play at some point. I'm trying to figure where he fits on the scale between Human and Cthulhu... In my favor is the fact that every place in the Cthulhu mythos is within an hours drive from where I live (The north shore in Mass). Arkham is Salem-Danvers area. Gotham is Boston. Innsmuth is Newburyport (where I used to live.) Add some dark lighting and some gaslights (1920s) and now everything is adequately grimmer and darker.

I'll pm you with a general outline when I find the document. It basically had to do with Kryptonians using a significant portion of the brain, both consciously and subconsciously, to manipulate energies given off by their local star. Like a freak evolutionary occurrence in a primitive civilization that had not yet begun to rely on technological evolution for survival instead of biological evolution. They develop organelles in the basic cell structure that can capture solar power and radiate it throughout the body.

Now that I think about it, the only major drawback I ran into was that it made it impossible for him to have children with homo sapiens.

Col. Tartleton
20-08-2010, 02:31
@ Col. Tartleton; You Sir should kill Graham McNeill, drain out his blood and using some grimdark method become him so that finally there would be a good Graham McNeill book. ( Except for A Thousand Sons....that was good =o] )


Don't be over dramatic. I know for a fact I can't usually get beyond ten-twenty pages of a story without starting to hate it and lose interest in my concepts. I couldn't replace anyone.


Oh and I was referring to the C'tan as being plant like. Photosynthesis as the solar scale.

As of now my plan for Kal El was that he and Wonderwoman are examples of the Atlantian and Athenian precurser races which were destroyed after an asteroid hit the earth and turned what had been a large island (Atlantis) into the Azores. The Tsunami wiped out the two races. She's a hand maiden of the "Athenian" God-Emperoress Neith and he's a descendant of the Atlantian God-Emperor Amun who were diametric rulers of the two major civilizations 12,000 years ago. The idea being that the survivors were few in number (The Egyptian God-Kings) who over time mixed their blood with lesser men (I feel racist just saying that) which formed the Pharoahs who kept their titles as Divine Kings before eventually devolving into essentially the regular people we have today. All linked into the idea in the old testament that the generations from Adam and Eve have degenerated severely.

What I've done is taken the Lovecraft and Robert E Howard stuff and renamed it to fit in DC. Kull become Kal El... Solomon Kane become Solomon Wayne the puritan founder of Gotham (Boston) the Joker is labeled in the Media as the "Beast of Innsmouth" after being linked to 19 rape/homicides and is holed up in Arkham Sanitarium (Danvers Insane Asylum) etc. Bruce's grandfather was the steel magnate Andrew Wayne (Carnegie) who "owns half of Pennsylvania." Braniac is an Eldritch Horror etc.

I'm gonna go to hell for that off topic. :)

Horus Vs Calgar... who would win.

Scribe of Khorne
20-08-2010, 02:38
As of now my plan for Kal El was that he and Wonderwoman are examples of the Atlantian and Athenian precurser races which were destroyed after an asteroid hit the earth and turned what had been a large island (Atlantis) into the Azores. The Tsunami wiped out the two races. She's a hand maiden of the "Athenian" God-Emperoress Neith and he's a descendant of the Atlantian God-Emperor Amun who were diametric rulers of the two major civilizations 12,000 years ago. The idea being that the survivors were few in number (The Egyptian God-Kings) who over time mixed their blood with lesser men (I feel racist just saying that) which formed the Pharoahs who kept their titles as Divine Kings before eventually devolving into essentially the regular people we have today. All linked into the idea in the old testament that the generations from Adam and Eve have degenerated severely.

I'm gonna go to hell for that off topic. :)

Horus Vs Calgar... who would win.

I would read that!

(Horus, because Good is Dumb!)

bruceadsero
20-08-2010, 06:57
This is a post in reply to the whole artefact made Horus fall theory. The anethame mortally wounded Horus and made him vulnerable enough to where Erebus could cajole the lodge in the Luna Wolves to turn over his medical care to the Priests of Davin. While on Davin, Erebus and these priests (who secretly worhsip chaos, they did corrupt the Word Bearers if memory serves) perform a ritual that bring Horus and Erebus to the warp. Here Horus is exposed without any protection (other then being a primarch) to the foul influence of what I assume is the corrupting influence of Chaos. He also had Erebus twsiting everything he saw (like the future shot of the shrine world). In adition to being alone in the warp with a close ally trying to corrupt you Horus also faces the duel shock of seeing Magnus use sorcery (a sign of the Emperors incomptence in watching the 1000 sons) and then you have Horus see the primarch being sucked into the void at their creation. This vission traumatizing enough on its own is obviously schewed to make it look the Emperor wanted to happen. After facing the warp with a corrupted chaplain as your partner and seeing everything you believe used to make the Emperor look like a jerk, I think the corruption might run a little deeper then the whole "Daemon Artefact in a Tent" explanation. Thats just my two cents.

FlashGordon
20-08-2010, 14:07
Does anyone know how fast the thought process of a primarch are? Thought not. 18 months of thinking (or what it was) for a primarch might equally be the thought process equivalent of a normal human for a lifetime.

And as stated by bruceadsero there was quite much more than a magic weapon behind Horus corruption.

LordLucan
20-08-2010, 14:40
Does anyone know how fast the thought process of a primarch are? Thought not. 18 months of thinking (or what it was) for a primarch might equally be the thought process equivalent of a normal human for a lifetime.



I already made this point earlier... ;)

massey
20-08-2010, 14:43
Does anyone know how fast the thought process of a primarch are? Thought not. 18 months of thinking (or what it was) for a primarch might equally be the thought process equivalent of a normal human for a lifetime.


It's still lame.

Son of Sanguinius
20-08-2010, 17:53
And as stated by bruceadsero there was quite much more than a magic weapon behind Horus corruption.

That's not the problem.

The problem is that a magical "deus ex machina" weapon was needed at all. Horus had so many perfectly valid psychological and emotional reasons for wanting to turn that the Anathame (sp?) wasn't necessary in the least. Its presence there, to me, shows a fear on the part of the authors to tarnish the heroic image of the Primarchs (and specifically Horus) by suggesting that they can simply decide to not follow the Emperor. It sacrifices a literary character's depth for the sake of a misconception of awesome.

Lupe
20-08-2010, 18:11
It's still lame.

Probably. Still, after a solid two or three centuries of living, warring and making decisions you might not feel in the mood to think things through. You've probably developed some kind of working relationship with your gut feelings by now and most of the times things work out well. It just happens that Horus' instinct at that particular time told him that civil war might be a good idea... Gut feelings can be a bitch when they're wrong...

Col. Tartleton
20-08-2010, 21:46
If they wanted him to say "@#$% it I quit" and shoot up the post office they could have and It would have implied he'd been restraining an urge to burn the house down with himself in it. If he'd had doubts about the idea of taking over the whole galaxy and whatnot and then eventually realized even if they could succeed it wouldn't be worth while to, then him going rogue makes sense. He could make up his mind in a split second but they should have had a clearer breaking point.

There needed to be a moment where he kicks the dog to show he's snapped. Something like one of the administrators telling him what to do and Horus ripping out his spine and throwing him through a reinforced concrete wall and saying "I'm done with these games, if anyone thinks they can do my job they can try and take it from me!"

Honestly, that would have been AWESOME.

bruceadsero
22-08-2010, 02:26
It seems to me you were looking for a moment in False Gods where Horus proves without doubt he is corrupted, while there are obvious indications he is the real defining moment that shows how far he has gone is when he launches the virus bombs on Istvaan. False Gods is kind of building up to that moment in Galaxy in Flames by laying out all of the steps Horus took on his road to dammanation. Personally i think the virus bombarment was a way better "breaking point". Because really other then kill Ignace Karasky and Hektor the Army Commander for dissidence Horus doensn't really demonstate how far he has gone until he gives the order. It could be argued he hasn't really been corrupted until after the bombardment since he declares he wont swear fealty to the Ruinous Powers until after Istvaan because he wants to begin the betrayal on his own. His stated reasons are that "My Legions will go through the fires of Istvaan alone, for only then will they be tempered into a shining blade aimed at the Emperor's heart." To me this could mean he isn't trully corrupted until he has betrayed his own legion. The conversation with the demon in regards to him swearing fealty is on Pg 93 of Galaxy In Flames.

Lord Lorne Walkier
24-08-2010, 01:30
It doesn't change the fact that geneseed is proven to have unpredicted side-effects, which can include physical changes to come to look like the Primarch, and that the strength of this change depends on the geneseed in question. Iron Warrior geneseed gives a stronger likelyhood of physical mutation occuring in the limbs. Raven Guard seed changes them in places (hair/skin) to entirely reflect the Primarch, but leaves others (face/eyes) unchanged. Luna Wolf geneseed seems to be something like this. It has a likelihood of widening the face.




It never mentions that he didn't either. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Similarly, the fact that Iacton was not affected in no way proves your idea, as it implies that for it to be a physical mutation brought on by the geneseed, it has to affect them all, when that isn't the case. It could simply be that Iacton's body didn't accept the implants to the extent that others did.

All the other gene-seed mutation seems to effect the whole legion to some dagree. I know that dose not mean that this is allways the case but it dose make it more likely that a change / mutation, caused by gene-seed, should effect the whole legion.



And what are you basing that assumption on? Give me a page reference that states Sejanus looked like that before he was a Neophyte, or that Abaddon did, or Little Horus, or any of the Sons.

I do not know this for sure i am giving my view here.



This isn't normal biology. You can't use an example of real-life siblings to explain the similarities the Sons shared with their Primarch because real-life siblings don't look the same because of the implantation of foreign organs, or possibly cloning.

But they do share genes and look like thier fathers like the sons looked like Horus. The choice of "son" here i don't think is just tongue an cheek.




Well, the process of becoming an Astartes causes massive physical changes, including skeletal, so why is it so hard to accept that it could change the skull? We know that some geneseeds affect some implantees more than others (Iron Warrior limb mutation, Thousand Sons mutation, Imperial Fist masochism), why not the Luna Wolves?

Because no ware is it even hinted that the Gene-seed Of Horus had any such effect at all. Not in any book, novel, Codex, IA, or WD article. The hint of clones is repeated though over and over.



As to your other questions: 1) To give the Luna Wolves a gimmich as a Legion, and make Loken more special. 2) For characterisation. 3) If all Sons are clones, why is it just Abaddon we hear about being a possible clone, and why does Little Horus look more like Horus than Abaddon does? Surely if they're clones they'll be physically identical? Why does Horus keep having non-clones brought in? Surely if he can produce the clones on the scale to have them be a recognisable faction within the Legion he can make them all Sons, even if it means lowering the Legion size slightly. After all, if he's doing it simply for power, then risking an eventual split like what happened is something you'd try to avoid?




Instead, we're told that the Luna Wolves have many members who share physical characteristics of their Primarch, something which we know has precedence amongst the other Legions, and we know that these similarities are to different extents (after all, Little Horus is called that because he looks almost exactly like Horus. If they're all clones, they'd all look identical, so there would be both no need to point it out, and no difference between any other Son).
What we don't have is an Abaddon who looks identical to Little Horus who looks identical to Sejanus who looks identical to Torgaddon, who are both all Sons, and yet are capable of being told apart without looking at what scars they have where, which is not something we'd see if they were clones of Horus. Just to clear up, for them to be clones, they need to look absolutely identical to Horus. It is clear that they don't. Therefore, they cannot be clones. Abaddon cannot be a clone, as Little Horus looks more like the person he's supposed to be a clone of; once again, impossible to happen with an actual clone.
Their voices are different, and they all have Cthonian accents, something yet again impossible if their vocal chords are all identical, excusing injury.

Well lil Horus looking more like Horus then Abaddon only makes me think he to was a clone-son also. Them all looking the exact same is a bit troubling. I think the idea of them being exact duplicates of Horus dose not work. Clearly they are not all primarchs and i doubt even if he could have, he would do this as they would be hard to control. My idea is that Horus was gene splicing. something close to clones. aka Clone-son. Even if the non sons were not as good, they were still Astartes. If he had the ability and time to make enough sons i think he would have. Time dose not to seem to be on his side though. I did not get the impression that the Sons were the majority of the Luna Wolves just a important minority. I'm thinking they were around 20ish % of the Luna Wolves. I think Horus was willing to use what ever troop he could but was not satisfied and wanted to improve on a good thing. And as for the split, Some of the Son's stayed loyal and many non sons kept true to Horus.



The problem is that we have so, so many things pointing against the clone theory, and the only things in favour is the rumour that Abaddon is a clone, and the fact that some Luna Wolves share similarities with their Primarch, a trend that exists in other Legions without cloning being involved.

A trend that has never been even hinted at in the Luna Wolves.

5) Another difference between the Sons Looking like Horus and the other Legions changing their appearance to look like their Primarch is that the others are supported by the fluff / cannon. All the examples of changes in the looks of the astartes in legions other then the Luna Wolves is supported by a bit of fluff. Most are talked about in their Legions IA article and then backed up by novels and Codex write ups. In the case of the Luna \wolves we have the exact opposite. The only thing we have is this nagging Rumor about Abaddon being a clone-son. In the IA write up of the Luna Wolves they do talk about the Gene-seed of Horus. They say that gene-seed of Horus was "Reliably stable". Even you used the word Mutation when talking about the "Changes" as you see it in the Sons. I think this discretion clearly shows that the gene seed can not be the cause of the sons looking like Horus. It has to be something else. If the Gene-seed did cause this kind of change, how would it even get off the ground? would there not be sill thousands of "sons" as they still use the gene-seed of Horus? If I am right there are no more sons being created. Cthonia is destroyed.

Col. Tartleton
25-08-2010, 03:22
No, Horus had four clones. Horus the egyptian god had four "sons" that's where the term comes from and why he has a "mournival". Ezykyle Abaddon, Horus Aximand, Tarik Torgaddon, and Hastur Sejanus. The four sons of Horus. The rest were his gene seed but not clones. But as you said they weren't pure clones they were either hybrids or his actual sons. How old was Horus when he was found? We don't know. He might have had actual sons or something. That's why Abaddon was so miffed when Bile tried cloning Horus. Abaddon was his favored son. He wasn't going to let some clone freaks steal his thunder.

Son of Sanguinius
25-08-2010, 05:47
When did we become so sure that they are clones? I thought that was some rumor for the 3.5 Chaos Codex for Abaddon only?

sycopat
25-08-2010, 18:39
I found it to be pretty strongly hinted at, but never confirmed, that Horus at some point had a few clones made up and inducted.

It's probably another gray area that will never be confirmed or denied, but I wouldn't put it past Horus to have dabbled a bit in genetics. It's an interest he probably inherited from his father...

And as I understand it Abaddon was pissed at Horus being cloned by the Emperors Children because they were using him in all their sordid little games. Considering the reverence with which marines tend to treat their Primarchs, he probably saw the Emperors Children having their own private Horus the Gimp as an insult, both to his Legion and his command.

Son of Sanguinius
25-08-2010, 19:34
Well, until shown otherwise, I'm treating that clone rumor as nothing more than a wives' tale by those in the Imperium who are only partially in the know. Nothing in the Horus Heresy books or otherwise suggests he's a clone, or clone son, whatever that is.