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Kaos
15-08-2010, 20:08
Ok so heres a thing. Im going to buy two battallions and some plastic trees and start myself a Wood Elf army. I have no clue on how to superopt this army so i will only go for what i think will be good and what i would like to play with/build paint and also based on economy.

Here is an army setup im thinking of building and i only want to know if its plain stupid or will be interesting/sometimes even useful to play.

For 3000p
Random characters+
3x16 glade guards FC
2x 12 Dryads
6 Glade Riders
9 Wildriders FC + Lord/Hero
6 Treekin (or two units of 3?)
1 Treeman

Will it suck or can it be playable depending on what characters i choose, magic heavy or not? I play O&G, WoC or Dwarfs usually so its a very different style of play for me to grasp, wich is a challenge. I need one after playing nearly 20 years with greenskins.

Also please give me all your little secrets and cool combos if you want to as tactical advice, it sure is apreciated!

Cheers-Kaos

Kal Taron
15-08-2010, 21:43
Both cavalry units are questionable. They may work and do something useful or they may just die. A lot depends on your enemy and the table.
If you like the models then by all means try and them and maybe they work for you. If you're looking for maximum efficiency, look somewhere else.

Otherwise it's a good list to start.

Balerion
15-08-2010, 22:10
I agree with Kal Taron.

Wild Riders are questionable in 8th edition, considering how much they cost to field, but I wouldn't frown on anybody who insisted on using them because they loved the fluff/models/whatever. They can still do damage, even though the odds are stacked against them now.

Glade Riders, however, are complete garbage. They're expensive, ultra flimsy, and lost the bag of tricks they had in 7th edition.

Your Glade Guard should probably be split up into units of 10, so you're not wasting any shots, and can spread your fire around between different targets more easily. At 3000 points you might want some more Dryads, too. If I were you, I would split the Glade Guard up into 4 units of 10, then add 8 Dryads (evening them out with your other units, so they're 11-11-10).

Other than that, great list.

cyberspite
15-08-2010, 22:25
@Kaos, the list looks OK to me, nice and balanced. Personally I would swap the glade riders for warhawks, but that's just personal preference mainly because the models are so nice.

Also you may want to squeeze in another couple of wildriders so they can take a casualty or two and still break ranks when flanking.

As for characters I think pretty much everyone seems to agree a L4 life (or possibly beasts) mage adds too much to wood elves to pass up. Heroes are optional depending on taste.

And Balerion's point about about the glade guard is a good one. Gives you a bit more flexibility.

Kaos
16-08-2010, 10:02
Wow thanks for comments and help, really good!

Im starting this army from two Batallion boxes so i must use the cav in some way and i figure i could convert some of them too wild riders. Gives me some possibly cool models (thinking of using marauder torsos and make them centaur-esk) but if they are really not worth the time it takes to build them it might be wiser to just go GR with the ponys. Would it be better to perhaps make all the horses wildriders so they might pack a little better punch? Theyre not Khaos Knights, i know that but i take what i can hehe..

I have read up on magic a bit and it sure seems like Beast and Life, especially life i would say, are what i should use on my musthave lvl 4. The magic in the wood elf books seems pretty boring in comparison.

Ok so it is still better to field GG as 10īs? I assume its easier to save their asses as soon as hairy beastmens and skulking hordes of night goblins chases after them. I like the "move and shoot at close range" terrorism they can use. No commands then i guess? or add musicians only?

Thanks for all the info you can share!

Cheers-Kaos

BluePojo
16-08-2010, 14:12
In only 1 of my 5 8th edition games have my Wild Riders done anything useful.

That too, because my opponent completely ignored them. They die so so so easily, and now there's nowhere to hide. Single unit of archers or whatever can cripple the unit, even though I've been running a block of 10!

Next time I'll be taking a second block of 6 treekin instead of the Wild Riders. It's a shame, cause they were the cornerstone of my army in 6th and 7th.

Kaos
16-08-2010, 16:27
Really sounds like Wood Elves got the long stick in 8th. Hmm... Oh well, im sure they will get better when a new book is coming in like.. two years or so! :P

If i throw in a lord and bsb there tooled up it might work?

Lets see.. i should get a Lvl 4 lord, using Life (im considering the defensive benefits and healing are pretty nifty for weak elfthings) a Lord and a bsb, perhaps one more noble runing around as Alter-Dude.. DOes anyone use two Wizards, is it worth it?

goodz
16-08-2010, 17:16
In 8th I would go magic heavy,

Great eagles are a great option for warmachine hunting, especially with percentage based rare slots at 2000 you can have a treeman and 2 eagles.

I love the alter noble with arcane bodkins, bow of loren, glamourweave. But I think your better off trying to control the magic phase using a level 4 spellsinger with wand of wych elm, maybe even a branchwraith. The Hail of Doom Arrow is a nice item to always try to fit into your list, although your bsb gives up his bow so might be hard for you to find somewhere to put it!
I would be tempted to use 5 units of 10 Glade gaurd, and 3 units of dryads if you have any extra. Your wild riders cant front charge most infantry blocks but if you can hold for a turn with your dryads/treeman then flank charge they can do some damage.

Strategy wise I would try to hold your center with your treekin, they are amazing in 8th run them 3x2 and they can smash most things, hold your flanks with dryads, you will run into large blocks that will beat any of your units, if you can get them small enough to hold for a turn or two then get a flank charge with wild riders you should be able to turn them away. (Glade riders i have found extremly lame, should have given them the S4 bow in 8th or something:P) *prays for a new book i am using an all elf list, and no treekin/dryads/treemen leaves me extra crippled:P

Let me know how it goes I have only played a couple 8th edition games but am considering buying 6 treekin and a treeman so i can put up a bit of a fight, although i think i am going to get a forest dragon instead, to keep my all elf theme I have heard positive things about hero on an eagle as well but have not attempted as i don't own the model.

Edit-added another note

Also ditch full command on your glade gaurd, all they really need is the banners, musician is probably good on your calvary so you can reform, and rally from fleeing easyier.

Kaos
16-08-2010, 18:30
YEs i have come to the understanding that Treekins are really really hard to shift once in combat. I like this image i have of how this works but it will be interesting to see how it will fare in reality.

I am thinking of for example when i play my greenskins I have so many units and machines, stuff and so forth that it might be hard for the treekins to pin down the center of an Horde army. But it will show itself.

I have to buy all the models first before i can playtest tho hehe..

So warhawks and eagles are good? I might have to look into them too. Are they plastic?

Balerion
16-08-2010, 20:32
Musicians are absolutely essential on Glade Guard. They allow you to use quick reform in order to fire at targets that started the turn out of your front arc. It's very good for drawing a bead on fast stuff that is trying to flank your army by rushing down the side of the board, or for units that beat you in combat and pursue behind your line.

Standards are annoying, because you don't get any benefit from them and risk giving up extra VPs to the opponent, yet you need to take them anyway for the stupid Blood and Glory mission.

Lord's Bowmen are pointless, though.

Kaos
16-08-2010, 21:13
Musicians seems like a very good deal.. Moving, reform, shoot. Besides as they are ranked up and shoot in two ranks they are much easier to move about than before I imagine? No more ten wide units. Unless i go horde!! lol Pansy elves.. cant even have a decent figthing unit and needs to hire walking bushes and trees instead. But, its a challenge and i have a feeling that it will come cool stuff in the future with a new book and so forth.


Ok so im looking into how to gear up a unit og Wild Riders with both a bsb and lord, to make some kind of meaning with it and besides it will look really coolers.

The Armour piercing banner seems like a really great item? And the +1 move perhaps?

The unit as it looks now is 14 FC AP banner
Lord, random items (thinking of that spear that makes enemies hit you on -1 if they take a wound, seems good as defence+ potion of strength)
BSB (either very defensive and takes challenges so lord can kill rank and file or make fighty)

Thoughts?

Satan
17-08-2010, 07:18
The wild riders will be a HUGE points sinker with a BSB and lord. I gave up on trying to build elven combat characters a long time ago - my recommendation is to include a lvl 4 instead and try to spam the magic phase and a defensive BSB.

What I'd do:

For 3000p
Lvl 4 mage w wand of wych elm
BSB, magic armour
Lvl 2
Branchwraith, Cluster
(Lvl 2)
3x10 glade guards standard, musician
2x 10 Dryads
2 x 4 Treekin (or two units of 6!)
(20 Eternal Guard, FC)
(Another 10 Archers)
1 Treeman
(1 Treeman)
Great Eagle

Included some optional units there...

Balerion
17-08-2010, 07:26
The wild riders will be a HUGE points sinker with a BSB and lord. I gave up on trying to build elven combat characters a long time ago - my recommendation is to include a lvl 4 instead and try to spam the magic phase and a defensive BSB.

What I'd do:

For 3000p
Lvl 4 mage w wand of wych elm
BSB, magic armour
Lvl 2
Branchwraith, Cluster
(Lvl 2)
3x10 glade guards standard, musician
2x 10 Dryads
2 x 4 Treekin (or two units of 6!)
(20 Eternal Guard, FC)
(Another 10 Archers)
1 Treeman
(1 Treeman)
Great Eagle

Included some optional units there...
Don't know if it's just a typo or not, but there's no such thing as a Lvl 2 Branchwraith.

Also, I really don't see the point in using a unit of 20 Eternal Guard. They don't have the attacks/strength to hurt anything significant; they don't have the toughness/armour to endure against anyone; they'll lose 1/3 of their rank bonus the first time an enemy shoots at them; god forbid a stonethrower lands a shot on them.

The only viable EG build is 30+ models and a Rhymer's Harp jockey. Preferably 40+ models in horde formation.

Halelel
17-08-2010, 07:36
Balerion has provided most of the useful information that I would have noted. I also agree that Eternal Guard are pretty useless unless you use them as a horde anvil (which is their only purpose really, which tends to suck for Wood Elf players as they are the only anvil)

There's no rule against using larger units of Glade Guard, however, don't expect them to match up well against pretty much anything in close combat. The multiple smaller units are still favored so you can choose multiple targets and protect against templates / unit wiping magic.

Wood Elf cavalry is especially subpar in this edition and I would forgo it completely unless you really really want to field it. I wouldn't throw them out or anything as I'm sure the 8th edition army book will address them, but for the time being, I wouldn't use them.

As others have noted, the current method of playing Wood Elves in 8th generally revolves around heavy magic and heavy shooting supported by some dryads, treekin, and treemen. Combat Wood Elves are just not effective in 8th.

Satan
17-08-2010, 08:25
Don't know if it's just a typo or not, but there's no such thing as a Lvl 2 Branchwraith.

Also, I really don't see the point in using a unit of 20 Eternal Guard. They don't have the attacks/strength to hurt anything significant; they don't have the toughness/armour to endure against anyone; they'll lose 1/3 of their rank bonus the first time an enemy shoots at them; god forbid a stonethrower lands a shot on them.

The only viable EG build is 30+ models and a Rhymer's Harp jockey. Preferably 40+ models in horde formation.

Nah, I mean a Lvl 2 AND a branchwraith. Two separate models. Not that the Lore of Athel loren is all that fantastic, but since he's playing at 3000 pts anyway... Might be worth including a second lvl 4 mage instead actually.

I'm torn about the EG, I really agree with you actually. But an extra unit with a banner is always nice, so maybe a fourth unit of archers instead. I've gone w the Rhymer's Harp/Annoyance combo on several occasions, and you pretty much nail it with the horde formation - but they still can't hurt anything sadly.

A final comment about wild riders - I've used them in pretty much every game I've ever played with woodies. I thought they were bad in 7th, and they're even worse in 8th. Their special rule which causes them to lose on of their S 5 attacks on the charge makes me want to cry, and they can't do much of anything. 9 times out 10 you're better off wioth Dryads. WRs are pretty much an overexpensive distraction/sacrificial unit. I don't know why I keep using them, as they always let me down. They're mobile and can waltz around just about anything, but they never achieve anything even with flank or rear charges.

Should you decide to field a unit of them YOU HAVE TO HAVE A WAR BANNER.

Artemis150
17-08-2010, 08:53
I seem to be giving this advice quite often, but I don't mind.
The Eternal are not useless, they just take a bit of upgrading. Get a BSB noble in there with the Wraithstone. Then consider combat resolution: +2 for ranks (I'm assuming they'll take out a rank), +1 for standard bearer, +1 for War Banner, +1 for BSB. Assuming you both get the same number of wounds, you're ahead by 5 already. I consistently win combat by three or four, and I only have fifteen. Combine that with an extra -1 to their leadership, and they're running. If you're against an army with low leadership, get rid of the Wraithstone and go for the Banner of Dwindling; You'll run them down every time.
As for the Glade Riders, I contend that they have their uses. Take a couple of minimum unit size. Make it look like you're going for war machines. Take one out if possible. Then, when your guys are in combat, charge them into the rear! Yes, a few of them will certainly die - they can not survive a hit. However, with S4 on a charge, they'll do a bit of damage. The main advantage is +2 to combat resolution.

From my experience with Wood Elves (my only army), their best bet at winning a close combat is the combat resolution.

Oh, and to save some points on magic, I'd recommend dropping the Lv.2. The Wood Elf lore is **** and very much in need of updating. The only real reason for a second mage in the new rules is to avoid wasting power dice when you roll high on the winds of magic. Generally, you're only over by a few. I solve the problem more cheaply using the Ruby Ring of Ruin (give it to the Lv.4) and Treesinging (Treeman). Use those spells to waste their dispel dice when possible.

PeG
17-08-2010, 09:30
Assuming you both get the same number of wounds, you're ahead by 5 already.

This is a big assumption when playing WE but I guess it depends on who you are fighting against. I find that they usually have a hard time getting equal casualties against many units and they do cost a lot of points. Opponents were you actually are likely to get equal casualties are usually steadfast unless you spend a lot more points on your eternal guards.


As for characters I would take a lvl4 with lore of life and then I would make sure to take items/spites to get as many extra dispell dice as possible in addition to a scroll.I would not take a lvl 2, potentially a lvl1 I need it to carry around the scroll or other items.

Glade riders do have their uses, warmachines, lone mages if he decides that the risk for miscast is to high to have them in a unit, preventing a detachment from flank charging (if you actually do combat) etc. I dont recommend rearcharging against anything else then very weak and small units since they often will take losses that are bigger than the CR that you get for rear and enemy casualties.

Balerion
17-08-2010, 17:18
I seem to be giving this advice quite often, but I don't mind.
The Eternal are not useless, they just take a bit of upgrading. Get a BSB noble in there with the Wraithstone. Then consider combat resolution: +2 for ranks (I'm assuming they'll take out a rank), +1 for standard bearer, +1 for War Banner, +1 for BSB. Assuming you both get the same number of wounds, you're ahead by 5 already. I consistently win combat by three or four, and I only have fifteen. Combine that with an extra -1 to their leadership, and they're running. If you're against an army with low leadership, get rid of the Wraithstone and go for the Banner of Dwindling; You'll run them down every time.

Hahaha, what?

That's like saying "assume that the enemy rolls all 1's -- you'll be fine!"

The odds are pretty high that, a) the enemy will have a standard, b) the enemy will have as many or more ranks than you, and c) the enemy will cause more wounds than you did.

Kaos
17-08-2010, 18:14
Wow, the discussion is ON!

Well I can only thank you all for your devotion to the green elves and thanks for making my head spin with all the advice hehe.

Magic Heavy-Check, no problems, i like magic for woodsies. If only they could use two lvl 4īs, now that would be nice.. one beast, one life. Maybe if I go nuts and use the more experimental stuff that adds PD from the new rulebook? Nah..

As i have understood Wood Elves are in contradiction to the fluff an army of attrition, not a hit-kill-run army, yes? So i will go with the Magic, treekins, glade guards army and add some poor horses just because i have the models.

Is it better to take a Treeman ancient than a Elf Lord and a separate Treeman?

Is it possible to go cheese with WE? Treeman Ancient, treeman, treekins, dryads and glade guards plus lvl 4 and a bsb?

Sorry for my ramblings, thinking out loud here trying to get to grips.. it really feels liek wood elves have a very narrow list of choices after discussing some with you. I wonder when the new book comes? lol

Cheers-kaos

cyberspite
21-08-2010, 23:28
Yeah, the contradiction to the fluff is what is most dissapointing about woodies in 8th. I could handle a sub-par army but the hit & run style was one of the main things that got me interested in them in the first place. Bummer.

But anyway, I think the most important thing is to go with what you like the most. Wood elves are never going to be an optimum army until they get a new book, so enjoy being the underdog and take the stuff that inspired you start the army in the first place. And nothing is completely useless, if you have the models and want to use wildriders then do it. +4 toughness from lore of life wouldn't hurt though ;)

Oh, and to answer your question, no it is not possible to be cheese with ANY wood elf army in 8th.