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Lupercus
15-08-2010, 23:47
In my O&G army list thread, I've recently brought up the question on how to best equip an Orc or Black Orc BSB. I've decided to start a thread dedicated to this, however, seeing as how I think a BSB is such a vital addition to any army now, especially an Orc and Goblin army.

So, I've got the armament for my Orc Great Shaman figured out(I think...), and now we move onto the next most important character in line; the Battle Standard. He's likely going to be a Black Orc, that much is certain. Other than that, I'm curious as to how I should equip him with magic items and such. One thing that strikes me is that, thanks to the 8th edition magic system, it is now much, much less necessary or desirable to equip him with Mork's Spirit Totem. This frees room up to equip him with slightly more interesting items...

So, I'd like to see your thoughts on how to build an excellent Black Orc BSB, plain and simple. Thanks, and I look forward to seeing your thoughts on this.

w3rm
16-08-2010, 00:32
I say give him either amulet of protectyness and the best basha or Talisman of Preservation and HA and enchanted shield. Gotta keep him alive.

Lupercus
16-08-2010, 00:43
Thanks for that, w3rm, makes sense to me. Perhaps the best way to go is to make him uber survivable. I like it. I mean, a magic banner isn't really necessary, as the benefits you get from having him carry the Battle Standard are themselves so good. I have a feeling the protective minded builds will be a recurring theme when it comes to equipping a BSB, and rightfully so.

The Talisman of Preservation is, if I recall, the 4+ Ward save item. In my case, that item is most likely already in use on my Great Shaman, so I would have to find an alternative item of some kind. Thoughts?

The Amulet of Protectyness and Martog's Best Basha are actually a really nice combo as well. The Amulet is just plain good defense, and the Basha is actually defense in a way too, considering that in some cases, especially with Orcs, the best defense is offense. The Basha raises some of his stats somewhat, and makes him a little harder for an enemy to actually hit in close combat, which makes for some good defense. The more I think about it, the more I really like this build.

LordBadgash
16-08-2010, 04:42
I like the Armour of Slivered Steel and the Luckstone.

A 2+ save that you can re-roll once per game!

gork or maybe mork
16-08-2010, 18:46
The problem with all of these builds, though, is that you have to give the spirit totem (which i view as mandatory) to either black orcs or big'uns, both of which are too expensive to get lots of ranks and not survivable to keep them. If you give your bsb just the spirit totem, heavy armour and shield, he costs very little and can hide in a unit of goblins near to (or preferably behind) your main combat units.

That said, if you are set on taking a survivable bsb, the amulet and martogs, as said, is good. Also for consideration there is the fencers blades, enchanted shield, ironcurse icon, which means anything with ws 4 or lower is hitting him on 5s, and it gives him an extra attack as well as giving his unit some protection from warmachines (save just one black orc and the icon gets its points back almost threefold). He only has a 3+ save, but if you put him in a night goblin unit, the nets give him an effective toughness of 6. This means that most things will be hitting on 5s, and wounding on 6s, making him very hard to kill. Alternatively, if you are in a horde unit and charge a unit with a narrower frontage, then you can often maximise so that the bsb isn't in combat if he is positioned at the end of a rank, completely preventing your opponent from attacking him.

Ghazbad_Facestompa
16-08-2010, 21:34
Sadly, you can't take mundane equipment besides HA/LA on any O&G BSB. Which is why my preferred build is the Armor of Silvered Steel and Luckstone.

stashman
16-08-2010, 22:11
If you go Spirit Totem, then use him in a unit of Arrer Boyz so you have him around 12" from the fights and still shooting with the boyz. 30 arrer boyz with full command is only 210 pts.

Nocculum
16-08-2010, 22:16
Heavy Armour, Shield, Boar
Battle Standard Bearer
Mork's Spirit Totem

Djekar
16-08-2010, 22:34
I've been rocking: Black Orc, Heavy Armor and the Trickster's Helmet to make people reroll their to wounds which is awesome as I also keep him hanging out in a unit of Night Goblins with nets. He does really well, giving the netters some good punch and staying alive by virtue of their sneaky nets.

Yes, I do then have to field some Black Orcs, and they are overpriced, but they have been performing much better for me in 8th than they ever did when I gave them a try in 7th. Plus they can double as points denial in a pinch.

Felworth
16-08-2010, 22:38
I like the Armour of Slivered Steel and the Luckstone.

A 2+ save that you can re-roll once per game!

This. Also, lets the BSB can Blorc throw out some great axe/double choppa lovin to any unit champs or rank-n-file troopers near him.

Plus, unlike the amulet of Protectyness, the BSB doesnt need to worry about being overwhelmed by rank-n-file troopers with crummy armor saves.


Heavy Armour, Shield, Boar
Battle Standard Bearer
Mork's Spirit Totem

Problem with the boar mount now is the rider can be hit by templates or cannons because he no longer gets a "Look Out Sir!" roll in an infantry unit.

davidvonhauser
17-08-2010, 00:32
I've been rocking: Black Orc, Heavy Armor and the Trickster's Helmet to make people reroll their to wounds which is awesome as I also keep him hanging out in a unit of Night Goblins with nets. He does really well, giving the netters some good punch and staying alive by virtue of their sneaky nets.

Yes, I do then have to field some Black Orcs, and they are overpriced, but they have been performing much better for me in 8th than they ever did when I gave them a try in 7th. Plus they can double as points denial in a pinch.

I'm not sure I understand you...

You don't have to field black orcs ever, unless you take that special character who requires them.

Or am I missing something here?

ooglatjama
17-08-2010, 01:56
I'm not sure I understand you...

You don't have to field black orcs ever, unless you take that special character who requires them.

Or am I missing something here?

Maybe he has the models and must use them to bridge a point gap.

Djekar
17-08-2010, 04:18
Sorry, I should have been clearer. I meant that I field them because I want the Spirit Totem to be somewhere, and if it's not on the BSB ...

It made sense in my head, sorry for the confusion!

w3rm
17-08-2010, 04:42
This. Also, lets the BSB can Blorc throw out some great axe/double choppa lovin to any unit champs or rank-n-file troopers near him.

Plus, unlike the amulet of Protectyness, the BSB doesnt need to worry about being overwhelmed by rank-n-file troopers with crummy armor saves.



Problem with the boar mount now is the rider can be hit by templates or cannons because he no longer gets a "Look Out Sir!" roll in an infantry unit.

He gets a look out sir just a 4+ one right?

decker_cky
17-08-2010, 04:49
No look out sir in a different unit type.

Sliver
17-08-2010, 09:41
I would not say Morks Spirit totem is mandatory anymore. Sure, magic is more brutal, but also much more unstable. The banner is mostly useful vs armies that generates alot of additional power dice, and even then there are better items available imo. I think that Obsidian items and items like the Spell shield will be great, combined with some scrolls, they yield a constant protection.

I'm liking the trickster helmet, combined with nightgoblin nets. If the enemy wounds you on 5+ the helmet is basically as good as a 3+ ward save in combat (and a 2+ one if they wound on 6, which many might do with nets reducing their strength).

Another option that seems good for survivability is the armour of destiny, heavy armour with a 4+ ward save.

As the BSB is vital for any greenskin army to work, I'll spend all his magic allowance on protection. I probably wont invest in black orcs or big uns to take Morks Spirit Totem, since the amount of ranks will make it far to expensive. I'm tempted to try a ~16 Black Orc regiment with the +LD banner thou, and put a savage orc general there. LD10 for the greenskin army, yay!

gork or maybe mork
17-08-2010, 12:50
I will have to disagree with sliver about the totem no longer being mandatory. In seventh, where power dice generation was for the most part fixed, then the totem just helped to bridge the gap between you and you're opponent. Three dice, while useful, just didn't cut it if you're opponent had 15 *cough* daemons *cough*. Now, however, three dice is on average just under half what you're opponent has, and if you combine it with the staff of sneaky stealin it'll often give you more dispel dice than you're opponent, which is imperative for stopping the new nuke spells (especially the ones based on Initiative).

Also, the armour of destiny is a bad choice. Why? Because if you take it, and a shield, the max armour save is a 4+/4++ for 54(i think) points. If, on the other hand, you take the talisman of preservation, then you haven't used up you're magic armour and so can still take the enchanted shield. This way you get a 3+/4++ for only 2 more points. A good deal if you ask me (This does however stop a mage from taking the talisman, which is a shame, but i view the bsb as more important than a mage).

Mid'ean
17-08-2010, 17:48
I would also have to disagree with silver. With the spells that can be thrown out in 8th and with the new PD generation having 3DD can cripple your enemies magic phase. I have been sitting since last night when I started coming up with a ork list as how and where to put my BsB. I plan on putting him in a cheap goblin unit of 25 (cost only 120 pts, bows,FC) and plant it right behind the huge boyz units. The unit and him can take care of most pesky flier units that might fly over the lines if they don't get blasted by the arty they just landed in front of.

Djekar
17-08-2010, 18:30
First, I disagree with Sliver as well. Magic is scary. With +3 DD I've been able to meet or excede my enemies PD pool unless he was packing some extra dice generation shenanigans. That means that I can let fewer spells through in the magic phase which makes me a happy orc.

Second, Gork or Maybe Mork - you do realize that you still have to pay the listed price in the army book for the enchanted shield, not the new, cheaper price in the BRB? Your combo of Talisman of Preservation + Enchanted Shield is a no go - it's too many points for a hero level character.

gork or maybe mork
17-08-2010, 18:33
Oops. That kinda sucks. Meh, I always take the spirit totem anyway, so it doesn't really bother me.

Nighthawke
17-08-2010, 19:04
Heavy Armour, Shield, Boar
Battle Standard Bearer
Mork's Spirit Totem

random thing, i thought we wernt allowed to take shields on our bsb only heavy or light armour ?

Malorian
17-08-2010, 19:06
random thing, i thought we wernt allowed to take shields on our bsb only heavy or light armour ?

That is correct. Our book is still too old.


I'd go for one on foot with a rerollable 2+ armor save, or naked in a bunker with the spirit totem.

Makaber
17-08-2010, 19:15
Punk in Drublic's been rocking the house with his Spirit Totem and Staff of Sneaky Stealing. You can roll as good as you want to, but chances are he'll end up with more Dispel Dice than you have Power Dice. It's a pain in the ass to deal with. :(

So yes, very very good. I'd say a fair share better than it was in 7th.

Lupercus
18-08-2010, 14:18
Nice, thanks so much for all the thoughts everyone! So far, I'm really digging the Armour of Silvered Steel and Luckstone idea...very survivable, and a little different than the typical Mork's Spirit Totem wielding BSB. However, that said, there does seem to be a crazy amount of support for the Spirit Totem, and as Makaber said, it seems to have gotten even a bit better...this isn't something an Orc player can simply ignore. So, I'm thinking I'll have to try both out.

For starters, I think I'm going to go with the uber survivable 2+ one time re-rollable save Black Orc BSB. He's tough, good armour, and access to either two hand weapons or a great weapon when the mood strikes, so he can dish out some pain. Like it.

Thanks again for all the suggestions everyone!