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ArcheiosAggelos
16-08-2010, 02:32
I'm toying with the idea of doing some pre-heresy conversions, and I would like to do the Thousand Sons, but also would like them to be Chaos Marines. I was wondering if some of you with more knowledge on the recent fluff from the Heresy novels and so forth could help me out.

So, during the Heresy or just after, which symbol did the Thousand Sons use? That, I suppose, is my main question, but if any other useful bits of information come to mind, please feel free to pass those on as well.

Thanks in advance.

Alfhedil
17-08-2010, 15:15
As far as I know, they were fresh from the catastrophe at Prospero and so were mainly focused on simply surviving the perils of Tzeentch's playground. It was during this time that they likely still carried the red and white of their legion colours as well as the scarab. Ahriman had been working on his rubric as soon as they entered Tzeentch's playground, as he didn't want to see anymore of the legion mutate into gibbering spawn. The HH book Thousands Sons will help draw more light to the matter as well.

Kiro
17-08-2010, 16:56
Before A Thousand Sons was released I would have said stick with their pre-Heresy color scheme, as all previous fluff indicated the Rubric didn't happen until after the Heresy. Now, I'm not so sure, as ATS implies Ahriman was preparing for the Rubric not long after they landed on the Planet of Sorcerers. Of course you could argue time flows differently in the warp, yadda yadda, but I'm thinking we might see a retcon. Only way to be sure is if we see the Thousand Sons in any of the later novels.

Lupe
17-08-2010, 19:19
I always imagined the Rubric happened before the Siege of Terra, to be honest. In my mind the pieces just fit in smoother this way.

I always imagined the traitor legions all landed on Terra a bit changed, and everyone else was utterly shocked by how the others had changed. Imagine Rubrics, Plague Marines, Obliterators and Possesed first encountering each other. And then think of the effects such a meeting would have on the morale of all those involved. It would certainly corrode the cohesion of Horus' forces, and it might actually have been a factor in the hasty retreat following the Warmaster's death, despite having numerical superiority and all objectives having been achieved.

Londinium
17-08-2010, 22:32
I'm going with the Rubric being shifted backwards into the Heresy timeline aswell. Simply for the reason that Ahriman as portrayed in ATS simply shouldn't be on Terra during the Siege because he still considers himself loyal to the Imperium. I envisage the Rubric occuring then the split between Magnus and Ahriman. Then Magnus is filled with anger about everything that has happened (the destruction then fracturing of his legion) and finally turns against the Big E and thats why he shows up on Terra.

Karl MkVI
18-08-2010, 19:44
Before A Thousand Sons was released I would have said stick with their pre-Heresy color scheme, as all previous fluff indicated the Rubric didn't happen until after the Heresy. Now, I'm not so sure, as ATS implies Ahriman was preparing for the Rubric not long after they landed on the Planet of Sorcerers.

no, it doesn't.

the final, italic monologue could take place at any point in the timeline. most people seem to miss this point.

there is no indication as to when the rubric will be. the first italic monologue is set after the rest of the book, and so is the second. at no point does either monologue suggest how long after.

Londinium
18-08-2010, 23:00
no, it doesn't.

the final, italic monologue could take place at any point in the timeline. most people seem to miss this point.

there is no indication as to when the rubric will be. the first italic monologue is set after the rest of the book, and so is the second. at no point does either monologue suggest how long after.

Based upon the idea that the Thousand Sons wander around the Planet of Sorcerors for decades or centuries? My fluff knowledge on the physiology of Space Marines is lacking but I'm pretty sure they need food and water or they will die. Walking around for more than a couple weeks on the barren mess of an Eye of Terror planet that the Planet of Sorcerors is highly unlikely. Thus the italic at the end of the book is definitely within a short proximity of the Battle of Prospero. Also the 'time flows' differently in the warp explanation isn't really any solid evidence because it only ever seems to do so when it suits GW and BL. During the Heresy period, everyone gets to and from where they want to without any problem (aside from the Death Guard's infection and lingering in the warp but even that didn't delay them massively en route to Terra). None of this a weeks travel in the warp taking a year or anything like that. It's a fairly rigid linear timeline and I'd assume most details of the Heresy will be dealt with like this. Then again I've always hated the stupid 'times flows differently in the warp' fluff, mainly because it'd be impossible to rule the Imperium with incredibly unreliable space transport even with it's decentralisation and also because it only ever seems to be brought up when someone is looking for a plot device.

The first italic and the mentioning of the Rubric is up for debate. Most of us who consider it to have occured in the Heresy timeline now, do so because Ahriman's character and a good deal of the Legion's simply doesn't fit popping up on Terra and letting all hell loose now. Only if the Wolves had been there would it have been plausible.

Kiro
18-08-2010, 23:34
no, it doesn't.

the final, italic monologue could take place at any point in the timeline. most people seem to miss this point.

there is no indication as to when the rubric will be. the first italic monologue is set after the rest of the book, and so is the second. at no point does either monologue suggest how long after.

Yes, it does.

You'll notice I said 'implies' not 'factually states', and I get that implication from; Ahriman speaks of the accelerating mutations affecting the Legion as if it's a new phenomenon, and Ahriman believes the Rubric will 'restore the Thousand Sons in the Emperor's eyes' (or words to that effect). Something I find hard to believe Ahriman would think after the Siege of Terra.

Londinium
18-08-2010, 23:44
Yes, it does.

You'll notice I said 'implies' not 'factually states', and I get that implication from; Ahriman speaks of the accelerating mutations affecting the Legion as if it's a new phenomenon, and Ahriman believes the Rubric will 'restore the Thousand Sons in the Emperor's eyes' (or words to that effect). Something I find hard to believe Ahriman would think after the Siege of Terra.

Indeed this is how I read it. Also the evolution of Ahriman's character now that ATS has been released makes it seem highly unlikely that he'd be at the Siege of Terra. Also Magnus as it stands probably wouldn't be, seeing as he fled into Tzeentch's arms as a last gasp effort to save his legion rather than in devotion to Tzeentch or Horus' rebellion.

This sets it up perfectly for Ahriman to enact the Rubric and for the breach in the Thousand Sons. Ahriman will go his way and Magnus seeing the legion which he gave his all for reduced to essentially spirits trapped in their power armour will go over the edge and instead of continuing to blame himself will finally turn on the Emperor. Thus turning up on Terra during the Siege after pledging loyalty to Horus and everything now ties in nicely.

Sir_Turalyon
19-08-2010, 07:48
Rubic happened long after Magnus reached the deamonhood and apparently lost interest in running his legion. Legion started to mutate after it lost use to Tzeentch - originaly it was supposed to be spared from mutation, but big T reconsidered when they were no longer useful unless as playthings. Both these strongly suggests Rubic happened long after the Heresy and wars in Eye of Terror that followed.

Last but not least, 2nd edition rulebook has story of heavily mutated Tousand Sons marines having millenia worth of memories, futher suggesting that mutations that provoked Rubic took long time rather than happening overnight.

Londinium
19-08-2010, 16:47
Rubic happened long after Magnus reached the deamonhood and apparently lost interest in running his legion. Legion started to mutate after it lost use to Tzeentch - originaly it was supposed to be spared from mutation, but big T reconsidered when they were no longer useful unless as playthings. Both these strongly suggests Rubic happened long after the Heresy and wars in Eye of Terror that followed.

Last but not least, 2nd edition rulebook has story of heavily mutated Tousand Sons marines having millenia worth of memories, futher suggesting that mutations that provoked Rubic took long time rather than happening overnight.

Have you read A Thousand Sons?

The mutations have been a part of the Legion from the very beginning not after they went over to Tzeentch. It's one of the very reasons they're called the Thousand Sons. Ahriman himself lost his twin brother to the mutation and a Thousand Son mutates during the novel.

It's not the 1990s anymore, 2nd ed fluff has been heavily superseded :p

FlashGordon
20-08-2010, 14:16
time works in strange ways(in the warp). The thousand sons just might be aware of this. So ahriman could have stayed loyal for 1000years but on the outside it might just have passed 5 years(or 7 incidentally).

Col. Dash
20-08-2010, 18:38
old fluff is accurate, new fluff is a lie. GW cant figure out a plotline without changing the fluff. Pick whichever you prefer, as they are both published material, both are accurate. I side with the older stuff. The HH while amusing has ruined any of the prior notions of the nobility of the traitor legions. Therefore it stays just that, an amusing story, but not an accurate portrayal of the betrayal.

Kiro
20-08-2010, 19:55
Errrr, ok. That's one way of looking at it, I guess _

AndrewGPaul
22-08-2010, 21:04
old fluff is accurate, new fluff is a lie.

Indeed. This "Rubric" business is just a cheap retcon. I want my Thrall Wizard squads. And the Word Bearers and Night Lords are still followers of Khorne, in my book.

Londinium
22-08-2010, 23:23
Bring back the Rainbow Warriors as a first founding legion and Leman Russ as a bog standard general!

Nazguire
23-08-2010, 02:48
Bring back the Rainbow Warriors as a first founding legion and Leman Russ as a bog standard general!

And that Obiwan Sherlock Inquisitor!

And the Half-Eldar librarian! 0.o

TheRedAngel
23-08-2010, 11:10
The index astartes claims that the rubric was indeed post heresy, but pretty soon after its end (when the legion returns after the siege to the planet of sorcerers).
Codex Chaos second edition confirms this.

But one can of course view these two as outdated.

Lord Nestron
23-08-2010, 12:40
old fluff is accurate, new fluff is a lie. GW cant figure out a plotline without changing the fluff. Pick whichever you prefer, as they are both published material, both are accurate. I side with the older stuff. The HH while amusing has ruined any of the prior notions of the nobility of the traitor legions. Therefore it stays just that, an amusing story, but not an accurate portrayal of the betrayal.

Well you have clearly not read "A thousand Sons" cause that is the very thing that runs through the whole book nobel but damned :rolleyes:

blackcherry
23-08-2010, 13:15
In the origional Index Astartes, it states that the thousand sons fled to the Eye of Terror after the burning of Prosperito. They were still the pre heresy marines we know of at this time. After creating a new Prosperito on one of the worlds in the EoT, mass mutation began to grip the legion.

Magnus, already consigned to his fate was quite happy to let this happen, at which point Arhiman and his cabal of followers came up with the Rubric to hault what they saw as the dissolution of the legion to Tzeench and then that brought around the TS and we know them today.

But looking at this, it seems that the background has been changed a little since then. Good luck with your research.

Askari
23-08-2010, 15:33
A Thousand Sons does change quite a bit about the Legion. For the better I think.

If, taking this as the most recent and canonically correct version, means the mutation began much much before the sacking of Prospero, indeed they were mutating before they were reunited with Magnus. Although they were called the Thousand Sons before this, by coincidence only a thousand marines survive the mutations rampant amongst them, thereby living up to their name. Soon during the novel, the mutations begin anew, signalling that Magnus' solution was not permanent, thereby speeding up the need for the Rubric.

The novel's story therefore implies the Rubric of Ahriman is earlier than has been said before. What this says of which Icon and Colours the Thousand Sons wear, we don't yet know and likely will have to wait until the Siege of Terra novels to find out.



And the Half-Eldar librarian! 0.o

What? You mean Tigurius? He's still here :)

FlashGordon
23-08-2010, 21:04
The index astartes claims that the rubric was indeed post heresy, but pretty soon after its end (when the legion returns after the siege to the planet of sorcerers).
Codex Chaos second edition confirms this.

But one can of course view these two as outdated.

Solution:

Magnus and co goes back in time to try to kill the emperor bringing forth the "Cabal-vision" but fails.