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drmckool
16-08-2010, 19:17
This will be a very easy question but forgive my ignorance

i am a 40k player looking to get into fantasy and while reading these forums and looking at the various armies i have heard the mention of "top 3" armies. My question is what are these armies and why are they refered to as this, is it a certain way to build an army or three specific armies?

Thank you

Lordy
16-08-2010, 19:20
in 7th the big 3 were most powerful races, which were:

1st. Daemons
2nd. Dark Elves
3rd. Vampire counts

It's too early to tell yet the power levels in 8th but i think Skaven are by far the most powerful race now, daemons are still great aswell despite all the whiners. Vampires took a massive blow and i would say are now mid tier.
Dark Elves are still one of the better armies, but they took a few hits aswell.

Mozzamanx
16-08-2010, 19:25
I would say the top 3 are now Lizardmen, High Elves and Skaven.

Skaven work around 2 principles: 2pt troops and lots of templates, meaning you can very happily get a unit of 50 Slaves into a fight, and then rip them to shreds with a nearby Warpfire Thrower. And its less than 200pts for that combination.

High Elves have rock solid infantry, with lots of high WS, ASF attacks. They are practically guaranteed lots of messy kills before the enemy gets a chance to swing, plus they have a fantastic magic defence.

Lizards have the best wizards in the game, at extremely affordable prices. Those mages also serve to either make Saurus unkillable (Life) or cover their inbuilt weaknesses (Light). The result is a fantastic synergy and absolutely stunning troops for the cost.

Lord of Nonsensical Crap
16-08-2010, 19:29
Well as far as the benefits of the "big 3" go in this ed:

VAMPIRE COUNTS
+new frenzy rules make Blood Knights more reliable
+/- can't take minimun Core anymore
-can't reliably get a crap-ton of power dice any more, even with Master of the Black Arts
-the Drakenhoff Banner can now be countered better
-crumbling = waaaay worse when contrasted to Steadfast
-No more autobreaking from Fear (though it was a stupid rule to begin with)

VERDICT: Wow have VCs been hit hard.



DARK ELVES
+ Magic is still evil thanks to new Lores and Power of Darkness
+cheap and reliable core infantry = very good
+frenzy hurts Witch Elves a lot less
+Cauldron of Blood is still awesome
+/-Hydra is much, much better now, but can also be more reliably countered
-Black Guard (actually, everything) is easier to kill thanks to supporting attacks

VERDICT: Still a really, really good army.




DAEMONS
+ranked units much, much better now
+Greater Daemons and Bloodcrushers et al are deadlier thanks to stomp
-Percentages means no more min/maxing
-Invincible Plaguebearer Tarpit is now much less invincible

VERDICT: Not sure, really.

w3rm
16-08-2010, 19:36
Hmm Plaguebearers are still very good I have no idea why people saye they arent. I would say Lizards are probably top teir along with skaven and Teclis High Elves.

Lord of Nonsensical Crap
16-08-2010, 19:42
Hmm Plaguebearers are still very good I have no idea why people saye they arent. I would say Lizards are probably top teir along with skaven and Teclis High Elves.

Before, Plagues could get their ward save followed by 4+ regen from the Herald. Now, they can only use either the regen or the ward, not both...I think. I'm probably misremembering the rules, though.

Oglog
16-08-2010, 20:02
I think that Dark Elves and Deamons are still good but some armies now outshine them. Since the beastmen aren't really that good, and the only other 8th book is Skaven, a few things seem very overpowered, such as the hellpit abomination, although I imagine new 8th edition army books will be much stronger than the current 7th or even 6th ones. Another very strong army is the high elves, especially certain magic builds. The empire and lizardmen are also contesters. Right now I would go for Skaven or High Elves for the best armies, although I think the new O&G book has potential to be very strong, if they fix animosity, since horde/infantry armies are very effective in 8th edition. I hoped this helped.

PeG
16-08-2010, 21:21
DE are probably as strong as before. Having access to unlimited number of cheap power dice each magic phase is vary valuble with the current lores.

VC (and to some extent TK) got hit hard by various rules and have a hard time keeping their general alive and when he dies they crumble.

Daemons got hit hard but still have some very hard units so I dont really know their status. Greater daemons can do more damage then before but can also die a lot easier then before. Anything with a really low stat is in dagnger to some of the new spells. Purple sun can wipe out a nurgle bunker with a single cast, dwellers, shooting templates etc can also easily kill T3 daemon infantry that are relatively expensive. On the other hand they have access to any lore in the book, have some really fast relatively hard hitting units etc, I dont think they are top tier but somewhere in between.

My current guess for top three would be skaven (cheap units, lots of templates cheap heroes), empire (excellent magic defence, cannons, mortars other templates, shooting, detachments) and Lizards (Slann).

Crovax20
16-08-2010, 21:37
Dark Elves are still bastards. Probably my personal "hated" army, because everything in that book is so *()Q#@U*)! cheap compared to my O&G/Empire books. Its just not funny when you learn that for a mere 1 point more you get a far far far superior warrior in all respects compared to my swordsmen for example. Ugh, I really don't like that army.

Templar47
16-08-2010, 21:46
From what I've seen so far, the top 3 in my opinion seem to be:

*Empire: Gained a lot from this edition, and the ability to take multiple war-machines is huge.

*High Elves: Now have a nasty magic phase, can re-roll hits against most opponents thanks to the ASF rule and the higher Initiative.

*WOC or Skaven: Though skaven are really good with a lot of number and some nasty magic, WOC can be really nasty as they are what one of my friends calls, "the space marines of Fantasy."

bfeijter
16-08-2010, 21:56
whats so nasty about skaven magic?
The new lores in the rule book are much much better.. (imo)

DisasterMaster
16-08-2010, 22:11
Skaven magic is still good. There aren't very many bad spells, unless you end up with cracks call and skitterleap vs wood elves... :(

They also get some sweet deals like wither, plague, scorch, and the 13th spell is a pretty good uber. Skaven magic works for saven well, although I do wish Ikit Claw could still take other lores... would justify his point cost... maybe....

My skaven are enjoying 8th ed, and it was definitely a boost for them. Don't count them as invincible however as they still have a bunch of weaknesses, and some of our dominant forces from 7th ed like censor bearers got nerfed pretty hard.

yabbadabba
16-08-2010, 22:19
1) One you want to play with
2) One you like the background/models
3) One you want to paint.

Kevlar
16-08-2010, 22:25
Skaven magic is still good. There aren't very many bad spells, unless you end up with cracks call and skitterleap vs wood elves... :(

They also get some sweet deals like wither, plague, scorch, and the 13th spell is a pretty good uber. Skaven magic works for saven well, although I do wish Ikit Claw could still take other lores... would justify his point cost... maybe....

My skaven are enjoying 8th ed, and it was definitely a boost for them. Don't count them as invincible however as they still have a bunch of weaknesses, and some of our dominant forces from 7th ed like censor bearers got nerfed pretty hard.

I agree.

Wither is one of the best spells in the game. Its a curse that can't be dispelled once it is cast. Dropping any unit a point in toughness is huge, dropping them two points makes even T4 units worthless.

Scorch is a very powerful attack usually hitting 16 troopers with flaming str 4.

Plague, half your unit simply gone. Even better now that people are running hordes! And it might just jump to another unit, just hopefully not one of mine.

13th spell. Eh, hard to get off. You can throw all your dice at it and hope for the best though. With the average of 6 dice being 21 a seer has a decent chance of getting it off. Might blow himself up though.

Maoriboy007
16-08-2010, 22:29
Why haven't Dwarves been mentioned.
Their war machines can wipe out units as reliably as some of the most powerful spells , accurate and powerful gunfire clean up the rest.
Powerful magic resistance.
Tough durable elite combat troops, if you manage to make it across the board.

or WoC
Hellcannons: some of the best Warmachines in the game
Elite Combat troops
Powerful Magic
Decent Cheap combat troops (marauders)

Scelerat
16-08-2010, 22:50
1) One you want to play with
2) One you like the background/models
3) One you want to paint.

This. A million times this.
This is what should guide people in their choice of an army, not the "tier" stuff.

WarmbloodedLizard
16-08-2010, 23:23
I'd say, the new TOP "3" (without SC) looks something like this:

probably:
Skaven, Dwarves, DE, Empire, Lizardmen

maybe/no sure:
Daemons, HE

Maoriboy007
16-08-2010, 23:43
1) One you want to play with
2) One you like the background/models
3) One you want to paint.


This. A million times this.
This is what should guide people in their choice of an army, not the "tier" stuff.

Unfortunatly it tends not to apply to people who want to win tournaments (or games even!)

Macavity
17-08-2010, 00:05
I'm starting a Skaven army, but fluff-wise, I just really want a whole lot of them. The combination of supporting attacks and always wounding on a 6 mean that you can literally just keep throwing little rats at anything until it dies!

I think that, along with what has been mentioned, the wounding on a 6 means that DE repeater crossbows are going to kill a lot of things they would never have been aimed at in 7th.

Lord of Nonsensical Crap
17-08-2010, 00:09
Unfortunatly it tends not to apply to people who want to win tournaments (or games even!)

If that is the case, then the player of a non-tier army has every right to gloat if he/she wins a game (or tourney).

I think it's a little too early to tell what the tiers for 8th edition will be (or even if tiers will remain relevant, seeing as 8th seems more conducive to a fun/friendly mindset so far than a competetive one).

Souppilgrim
17-08-2010, 00:09
1) One you want to play with
2) One you like the background/models
3) One you want to paint.

I agree, but I can understand someone not wanting to get stuck with a really really low powered army.

drmckool
17-08-2010, 00:22
I agree, but I can understand someone not wanting to get stuck with a really really low powered army.

I like warhammer for the gaming and not the hobbying (if that makes sense) so I'm looking for an army that will be fun to play and not soulcrushing all the time. Anyways I was initially asking because I was curious, however my intentions have changed as of now and now I'm looking at it to see which army will compete well in 8th.

Kevlar
17-08-2010, 00:23
Why haven't Dwarves been mentioned.
Their war machines can wipe out units as reliably as some of the most powerful spells , accurate and powerful gunfire clean up the rest.
Powerful magic resistance.
Tough durable elite combat troops, if you manage to make it across the board.

or WoC
Hellcannons: some of the best Warmachines in the game
Elite Combat troops
Powerful Magic
Decent Cheap combat troops (marauders)

Dwarves are decent, but with no magic or monsters, and being rather expensive I don't think they will ever be a top army. Their war machines are nice, but most armies have counters to war machines. Fast cav, flyers, infiltrators, storm banner, etc.

WoC are also a strong choice, they have everything except for war machines. Unfortunately the hell cannon isn't enough to plug that gaping hole. And while they do have cheap marauders, they don't really have much between them and the chaos warriors. A marauder horde army might be effective in a tournament but I just don't see many WoC armies with more than 50 or so models.

Maoriboy007
17-08-2010, 00:43
If that is the case, then the player of a non-tier army has every right to gloat if he/she wins a game (or tourney).

Indeed, I remamber a lot of props going to the brettonian player who came 2nd at the ard boyz (demons came first of course :rolleyes: )


I think it's a little too early to tell what the tiers for 8th edition will be (or even if tiers will remain relevant

True Enough although we can make some educated guesses


seeing as 8th seems more conducive to a fun/friendly mindset so far than a competetive one).

I'm seeing way too many units getting eaten by purple sun and smashed by war machines to agree with you I'm afraid. :D


Dwarves are decent, but with no magic or monsters.....

Dwarves get by fine without magic, and have magic defense in spades.
Monsters will need a lot of luck to survive the dwarves first turn


...rather expensive I don't think they will ever be a top army

They cost about as much as any elite army, step up has basically fixed thier major weakness of low move and initiative, the rest of their stats are pretty good.
Reliable Long ranged offensive power is probably going to be the new meta-game, and Dwarves have that in spades.


Their war machines are nice, but most armies have counters to war machines. Fast cav, flyers, infiltrators, storm banner, etc.

not all have those counters, and short of the Storm Banner, Dwarves usually have thier own methods of dealing with them, usually involving a hail of bullets :)


WoC are also a strong choice, they have everything except for war machines. Unfortunately the hell cannon isn't enough to plug that gaping hole.

I would strongly disagree, a str 5 stonethrower that is also a monster, good luck taking that out. And it can go on the offense as well.


And while they do have cheap marauders, they don't really have much between them and the chaos warriors.

Well, they dont really need to, both of those unit fit the bill in so many ways. Knights are no less lethal, and Trolls are fantastic as well.


A marauder horde army might be effective in a tournament but I just don't see many WoC armies with more than 50 or so models.

That can (and probably will) change. I've been watching a unit of 40 marauders regularly apper on the board and they're pretty fearsome.

WoC are definitly contenders.

Venkh
17-08-2010, 00:51
Very cautioualy I would say that the following armies are powerful in 8th ed. In no particular order.

1. Empire - Lots of cheap troops, a shooting phase that would give many 40k armies pause and insane magic defence

2. Dwarfs - Most players have unpleasant memories of accidentally engaging dwarfs in combat during 6th and 7th ed. In 8th ed it should be happening every game and it aint nice. They also rival Empire for magic defence and ranged capability.

3. Dark Elves - Cheapish troops, nasty magic phase, the cauldron, hatred and the hydra. Evil!

4. High Elves - Just for the magic phase. They can fight a bit but the magic phase is horrible due to the book of Hoeth.

5. Warriors of Chaos - Good artillery in the hellcannon but an edition optimised for ranked units in close combat ought to favour an army with the best CC fighters in the game. Horde GW Khorne marauders FTW!

6. Lizardmen - The Slann make lizzies one of the top armies. One properly equipped slann can dominate both players phases and buff the armies troops right where they need it. Steggies are great too.

7. Skaven - This army can bring a cheap horde of Ld 9/10 troops to the table and still have 2/3 of its points left to spend on a collection of evil spellcasters, deadly support troops and super destructive monsters and war machines. Everything is massively destructive and super cheap because there is a small chance of some of it going wrong.

--------------

Demons and VC have taken big hits and I dont consider either to be 'top' armies any more. Stepping up, steadfast and the nerf to fear/terror took them down a peg.

In short I think there is a big 7 at the moment.

If I had to chose 5 I would remove the HE and Dark elves from the list. I cant get down further than 5 though. Too early for that yet.

Minsc
17-08-2010, 02:20
Top3 imo currently is Skaven, Empire and Daemons.

VC and DE are not even close to top3 in 8th Ed.


Why haven't Dwarves been mentioned.

Dwarves are alot better in 8th ed, but they are not top3.
They have good magic protection, but they don't have magic, and they're still slow. They will never be top3 in my book with theese drawbacks.

Drongol
17-08-2010, 03:06
Dwarves are alot better in 8th ed, but they are not top3.
They have good magic protection, but they don't have magic, and they're still slow. They will never be top3 in my book with theese drawbacks.

No magic? No worries! People are drastically overstating the effectively of magic, typically by focusing on Lawl! Purple Sun as an answer for everything.

Slow? A Dwarf army can, with very little effort, put together a list that can charge first turn, 24+2d6", with a unit armed with S6 great weapons. That same list can also boast 8-14 war machines, with plenty of runes to back them up. And 2 Master Engineers to give your cannons/grudge throwers a heckuva lot more survivability should they misfire.

That same Dwarf army will be virtually immune to anything other than irresistable force. I just do not and cannot see Dwarfs as anything other than ungodly strong in 8th, only perhaps being edged out by Skaven. Maybe.

DaemonReign
17-08-2010, 03:21
Top3 imo currently is Skaven, Empire and Daemons.

VC and DE are not even close to top3 in 8th Ed.



Dwarves are alot better in 8th ed, but they are not top3.
They have good magic protection, but they don't have magic, and they're still slow. They will never be top3 in my book with theese drawbacks.

My guess for the top three would be Skaven, Lizardmen, Dark Elves.

Dwarves have taken a huge boost (this is great!) and should compete with these top three all though just under their "tier".

The Empire have also taken a huge boost and would have replaced Dark Elves at the top if it wasn't for the uncontrollable DE-magic phase, the underpriced units ranging from RepCrossBows to the Hydra (Blackguard are a bit nerfed but you still need twice their point-value to have a chance against them), not to mention "core-heros" that hides in units, ridiculously excellent magic items and so on - mentioning VC and DE in the same sentence is.. I have no idea how you could come to that conclusion really. VC have definately become what OK was in 7th Ed - a really really really challanging army to play successfully. This at least as far as my DE-playing friend is concerned.

Daemons have taken a small hit by comparison - it's the boost that other armies have gotten that is of real importance - but again, since DoC were really much worse than DE in 7th Ed (yes, if played Right) this gap has nothing but widened. Still, the new randomness of 8th Ed still makes for a much more interesting game I think - so DoC will still have a chance against DE now and then. Not to mention the fact that armies such as the Empire or Dwarves that used to have "structural" trouble with DoC now stand on much better odds. All Good Things! Except for the DE-bit maybe, but hey, as long as it's not My army being broken I'm a happy camper!

It'd be cool if HE and WoC are really as good as alot of people say they are, because those are the two armies my group are gonna start putting together over the coming year. Lizardmen and Skaven arn't part of our field of experience (except on a theorethical basis) but I think the arguments made for them being high tier in 8th are convincing.

SamVimes
17-08-2010, 03:47
1) One you want to play with
2) One you like the background/models
3) One you want to paint.

This, except I think maybe the 2 and 3 positions are backwards.

drmckool
17-08-2010, 04:24
This, except I think maybe the 2 and 3 positions are backwards.

Painting is the least important since you can really paint them however you want, whereas fluff cannot be changed as easily.

Lord of Nonsensical Crap
17-08-2010, 04:28
Painting is the least important since you can really paint them however you want, whereas fluff cannot be changed as easily.

Actually, to a degree...it can.

If I said that I wanted to collect a Dark Elf army that was disgusted with Malekith's rule and wanted to rejoin Ulthuan, could you tell me no?
If I said that I wanted to collect an Empire army that followed the Cult of Hello Kitty, could you say no?
If I said that I wanted to collect a Chaos army led by a Daemon Prince named Stephen Harper, could you say no?

Players can take any liberties they want with their own army's fluff and paint scheme. It's only their army's rules that they must abide by.

Edit: Sorry, kinda went on a wild tangent up there. But I do agree, pre-existing army background should be counted as a significant factor in choosing an army you like.

Bloody Nunchucks
17-08-2010, 04:29
I would say that the top three are Lizardmen, Skaven and Dark Elves.

if i were you i would not play ogres or bretts or any bottom army, pick one of the other armies that you like the look and background of, something that you would like to paint and build. that is how you should pick your army (in my opinion)

drmckool
17-08-2010, 04:36
I'm thinking of going with something different than my space wolves

Billy
17-08-2010, 04:55
Deamons are still sitting pretty on the top tier. They still have that silly banner that makes any roll of double 1,3,or 6's auto miscast. If that isnt enough to keep your broken heart warm and fuzzy I don't know what does.

Maoriboy007
17-08-2010, 05:06
I'm thinking of going with something different than my space wolves

WoC probably play like space wolves.

Maoriboy007
17-08-2010, 05:08
Deamons are still sitting pretty on the top tier. They still have that silly banner that makes any roll of double 1,3,or 6's auto miscast. If that isnt enough to keep your broken heart warm and fuzzy I don't know what does.

Eh they are probably more second tier with maybe DE.

drmckool
17-08-2010, 05:32
WoC probably play like space wolves.

so i should avoid them then... (since i want to do an army that is different from my space wolves)

decker_cky
17-08-2010, 07:54
I'm gonna go and say "there is no top 3 anymore." Yes, there's of course 3 armies that are the best, and they probably are among the ones that've been mentioned so far, but it's not that big of an issue. The imbalance has been pushed much tighter than it was in 7th, so the top armies are far from auto wins against even the weakest armies (assuming decent army construction by both players).

yabbadabba
17-08-2010, 08:26
This will be a very easy question but forgive my ignorance
i am a 40k player looking to get into fantasy and while reading these forums and looking at the various armies i have heard the mention of "top 3" armies. My question is what are these armies and why are they refered to as this, is it a certain way to build an army or three specific armies?
Thank you


Unfortunatly it tends not to apply to people who want to win tournaments (or games even!)
I agree, but I can understand someone not wanting to get stuck with a really really low powered army. The original post said nothing about tournaments, and funnily enough people still play with so called "low powered" armies because of my criteria. Drmckool then went on to say he wants to compete, but that still doesn't rule out most armies. If competition was the be all and end all, the last GTs would have been VCs vs Daemons.


This, except I think maybe the 2 and 3 positions are backwards. Personal preference. Background trumps painting for me anyday :D

Zilverug
17-08-2010, 08:28
After seeing a pure Khorne daemonic border patrol (without flesh hounds) seen shot (and choppaed) to death by a border patrol consisting mainly of orc arrer boyz I think the old truths aren't valid anymore.

Halelel
17-08-2010, 08:55
I'd also mention that Dwarf ranged units are tougher than most core infantry as well, throw some great weapons on quarrelers or shields on thunderers and they are pretty stout (ha)

I think people overestimate the magic phase, Dwarfs are pretty good at stopping magic and have the ability to snipe mage characters with cannons/ grudgethrowers/ massed shooting.

Now if only they fixed the flame cannon, :cries:

Maoriboy007
17-08-2010, 08:57
The original post said nothing about tournaments, and funnily enough people still play with so called "low powered" armies because of my criteria. Drmckool then went on to say he wants to compete, but that still doesn't rule out most armies..

Fair enough, I play VC and TK as my main armies cause I love the fluff and the Undead theme (my painting sucks!) not to mention they were my first armies.
I'll still play VC even though they took a pounding in this edition for the same reasons, although TK are on the bench until a new army book.
I like to play Empire purely as my underdog army, for a challenge.
I have played OK LM and WE at one time or another for much the same reasons, although LM aren't as challenging to use these days.


If competition was the be all and end all, the last GTs would have been VCs vs Daemons.

Demons maybe, how well have VC done at tournaments lately (say compared to DE LM and Skaven?)?

Venkh
17-08-2010, 09:56
After seeing a pure Khorne daemonic border patrol (without flesh hounds) seen shot (and choppaed) to death by a border patrol consisting mainly of orc arrer boyz I think the old truths aren't valid anymore.

Demons have problems in low point games because the core units really need Heralds to make them function. Demons are all about Characters and Rare choices supporting the now mandatory units of core troops.

The step up rule has made thiose heralds exceptionally vulnerable to the massed high Strength, Multiple/rerolling attacks that most armies have these days.

A border patrol force will probably consist of a single Herald leading one expensive unit with one or two support troops in tow.

They have some funky tricks as well but then so do the 7 armies I listed in my previous post.

Maoriboy007
17-08-2010, 10:14
The step up rule has made thiose heralds exceptionally vulnerable to the massed high Strength, Multiple/rerolling attacks that most armies have these days.

Most combat characters are having the same problem especially on foot. It makes you wonder if they really thought it through from that point of view, a limit on directing attacks (from RnF) might have been a good option. For some perspective, why would a VC General want to play anything but a bunker Lord these days?

Venkh
17-08-2010, 10:35
I feel for the vamps, I really do. No army has ever fallen so far so quickly. Demons havent suffered quite so badly and still have Flamers and the Icons to keep them afloat.

yabbadabba
17-08-2010, 10:59
The step up rule has made thiose heralds exceptionally vulnerable to the massed high Strength, Multiple/rerolling attacks that most armies have these days. Which armies are those then?

Venkh
17-08-2010, 11:53
Sorry I missed out an 'or'. My mistake!

Most armies have access to units with lots of rerollable attacks, high strength or both.

They can all put 6 attacks on your herald which in most cases is lethal. I put my Slaanesh herald in a challenge if i can, but my opponent can always refuse and direct attacks at him/her anyway.

Heralds are just that little bit more vulnerable than other armies characters and just that little bit more important to their units.

UberBeast
17-08-2010, 17:35
Dark Elves got nailed in 8th edition a lot harder than I see people crediting here.

The cauldron got screwed in the FAQ fairly hard: First it used to be immune to any hit, while now it has a stat line like a warmachine and can be nixed by any cannon, or even a good barrage of light shooting with 6's wounding anything. Second you can't buff your hydra with the ward save thanks to the 8th nerfing of plague bearers because wards and regen don't stack.

Harpies got hit by the new skirmish rules and the reduced effective charge range of flyers. What used to be an awesome unit is a clunky easily march-blocked unit with low leadership that doesn't even add to your minimum core percentage. What's more, their primary uses were to march block and take out warmachines. Now they are less likely to march block a unit and are more likely to be march-blocked themselves. (Completely opposite to 7th edition). For warmachine hunting their charge just went from 20" to an average of 14". That's a fairly large hit to all flyers.

All of their elite troops took a hit thanks to step-up combat and improved shooting (especially template weapons), and the horde/steadfast rules.

Speed is much less of a factor in all elf armies because of random charges, even though you're still paying a premium for this speed and ability to get what used to be a crucial charge because of the 7th edition army books.

Hydra nerfed by a dozen small cuts, not the least of which are the regen/ward save rule, the boost to large steadfast units, and the single breath attack. While it's still one of the more powerful units in the list thanks to monstrous stomp, 8th edition rules have nipped at its versatility. Still a great unit, but not as good as it used to be IMO.

Free hatred with ASF: I don't think there is a DE player alive who isn't annoyed by this one. Now the HEs and anything else with ASF and a higher initiative than their enemy get perma-hatred, making the DE hatred racial rule kind of blah.

Magic use: Dark elves are still paying a premium for the ability to cast a spell with as many power dice as they wish, something everyone gets for free in 8th edition. Most armies kept their special magic rules intact, but DEs had theirs made into common property.

Magic items: While the big two, the RoH, and the PoK are still fairly OP there are changes to 8th that help offset these.

First RoH miscasts have a decreased value when your opponent is tossing 6 dice Purple Suns and casting it with IRF anyway. It's an item that is only effective when you opponent is playing with some form of moderation, not if he is going all out for the large unit killing spells.

As for the PoK, there have always been a number of spells and magic items that don't use a strength value, even more now that 8th edition magic is in place. It's fairly easy to get around, especially as you can almost always expect it to be used by a DE player.

Lastly it's not a big deal, but the Potion of strength was always a favorite DE magic item of mine. Now it's a common item, but thanks to the FAQ Dark elves have to pay 30 pts for it while every other army gets it for 20.

To quickly wrap it up, Cold One Knights are junk as are most cavalry, but they got hit doubly hard because fear is also nerfed while still stupidity stayed the same.

My summation is that Dark Elves are not a top tier or even one of the better armies anymore. They didn't get hit overly hard (like WEs), but they missed out on many of the 8th edition buffs. I'd go as far as to say they are mid-range at best, and that is only thanks to their ability to buy cheap spearmen and hydras, and anyone who plays them will tell you these old tricks don't go very far in Hordehammer.

bfeijter
17-08-2010, 17:39
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'd say, the new TOP "3" (without SC) looks something like this:

probably:
Skaven, Dwarves, DE, Empire, Lizardmen

-------------------------------
Wow, 5 armies in the top 3 this edition! i realy like 8e! :P

UberBeast
17-08-2010, 17:51
One last thing, DE Assassins: You can have fewer of them thanks to percentages, but that's a good thing because the new step-up rules have made an assassin a one turn deal thanks to his low T and no armor.

DaemonReign
17-08-2010, 18:25
Dark Elves got nailed in 8th edition a lot harder than I see people crediting here.

Well they got some buffs that you neglect to mention.

RepeaterCrossBows are to 8th Ed what BlackGuard was to 7th.

Troops like Executioners and regular Spearmen are now very viable choices.

Most of the nerfs you mention were "not a day too early".

Like the Cauldron - its rules were ridiculous before.

Ring of Hotec - Now it's a cheap and very good item, it used to be a joke. The sort of Item that when someone brought it to the table you just sighed and went "ok, fine, you want me to leave too so that you can continue playing yourself".

Pendant - a balanced item now. I never concidered it as fubar as Hotec though.

Hydra - Still worth roughly 230pts rather than 175. It's still got Scaly Skinn and Regen. I've never ever seen my DE-playing friend buff the Hydra with Wardsave and he wins All The Time (in both eds).

Harpies - Well there are other examples of skirmish/fly units that got hit harder. Chaos Furies for example. These changes hit across the board.

Elite troops - Yes they all took a hit, in every army. DE still has basic troops with good WS and superior Initiative.

Speed is less of a factor but DE still have top basic movevalue in being elves.

Free hatred with ASF: Yep. No argument on this bit of course. This will probably level the playing-field alot.

Magic use: Power of Darkness (it's what it's called right?) can now really turn a magic phase upside down.

You mention Potion of Strength and no there seems to be NO reason why DE should pay ten more points compared to everyone else.

I haven't faced off against DE yet but the guy in our group who commanders them has played a couple of battles and won just as horribly as he was used to doing in 7th. Of course, he's sort of a power gamer in a pond of fluff-munchers so maybe, just maybe, that's where my personal impression of DE being the top tier of all top tiers comes from.. haha[/QUOTE]

Kneedles
17-08-2010, 18:31
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'd say, the new TOP "3" (without SC) looks something like this:

probably:
Skaven, Dwarves, DE, Empire, Lizardmen

-------------------------------
Wow, 5 armies in the top 3 this edition! i realy like 8e! :P


I agree. HEs are Teclis or go home. WoC are very powerful still. I feel that they are going to be very close to the top. A new book will likely improve OnG as well. Khemri I'm not so sure....

DE are still good with great unit costs and access to the scary lores. Executioner are just killing everything in a meatgrinder of destruction.

Odominus
17-08-2010, 18:41
Yea, Empire has to pay 15pts for enchanted shield. Everyone else is 5pts.

DE getting whooped around here. I say they have dropped to middle tier. Hellova good magic phase though.

Yea HE are top tier ONLY if playing Teclis.

Heimagoblin
17-08-2010, 19:01
Top 3:

Lizardmen-skaven,
Daemons

In that order.

Gropius
17-08-2010, 19:01
I am not very well-read on Empire rules. What makes their magic defence so good?

Minsc
17-08-2010, 19:15
Yea, Empire has to pay 15pts for enchanted shield. Everyone else is 5pts.

Sorry but I don't like it when people talk out of their ****.
Everyone that can take it, pay 10-15 pts for a Enchanted Shield, except for Ogres.


What makes their magic defence so good

Warriorpriests and Archlectors still add DD, making it quite easy for Empire to get 2+ extra DD. Then add the Rod of Power and you can just like dwarves quite easily have more DD than your opponent has PD.

Odominus
17-08-2010, 19:29
Sorry but I don't like it when people talk out of their ****.
Everyone that can take it, pay 10-15 pts for a Enchanted Shield, except for Ogres.


Minsc knows enchanted shield costs better than me (up till now anyways). WOOT. This constitutes "talking out of the ****?" LMAO! A 5-10 pt difference? Wow Minsc- you are a hero for pointing it out! You get a shiny new button:rolleyes:

Also no need to apologize.

Zaszz
17-08-2010, 19:34
Just don't play wood elves, ogres, or tomb kings, if you want to avoid armies that are a little lacking in the power level department.

Heimagoblin
17-08-2010, 20:00
Minsc knows enchanted shield costs better than me (up till now anyways). WOOT. This constitutes "talking out of the ****?" LMAO! A 5-10 pt difference? Wow Minsc- you are a hero for pointing it out! You get a shiny new button:rolleyes:

Also no need to apologize.

That 10 points difference makes your statement 300% above what you said. Kinda like turning up to play a 1k game with a 3k army.:rolleyes:

UberBeast
17-08-2010, 20:02
Ogres have been doing fairly well in my area thanks to the 3 wide ranks and stomp attacks, and tomb king magic phase it fairly brutal.

Wood elves are doing horribly though.

TheKingInYellow
17-08-2010, 20:04
I still think HE can be very effective without Teclis. I *do* think that an L4 with Life is necessary for them to really excel, but it doesn't have to be Teclis at all.

My HE don't lose very often in 7th or 8th.

UberBeast
17-08-2010, 20:07
RepeaterCrossBows are to 8th Ed what BlackGuard was to 7th.


It wasn't too hard to put your RxBs on a hill and get double shots in 7th. As every shooting unit now gets that buff it's not really something I consider a DE only thing. I wouldn't consider them anything like what Blackguard were to 7th edition and they are positively useless when facing tough-well armored armies like WoC or Dwarves.

Bloody Nunchucks
17-08-2010, 20:07
I strongly agree with
[QUOTE]
I still think HE can be very effective without Teclis. I *do* think that an L4 with Life is necessary for them to really excel, but it doesn't have to be Teclis at all.[QUOTE]

metal is also a good lore for HE

Malorian
17-08-2010, 20:14
My top 3:

1. Deamons (leadership bomb still rules all)
2. WoC (marauder hordes FTW)
3. Empire (powerful warmachines backed by cheap infantry)

Odominus
17-08-2010, 20:14
That 10 points difference makes your statement 300% above what you said.

Well sure. If I was in the habit of playing 5pt games.

*yawn*

As far as the HE discussion. I still think they are tough. But Teclic is an added dimension all to himself. IF Dwellers every turn is hard to overcome. It is doable, just very hard.

Lowmans
17-08-2010, 21:27
I think these can become a bit rock, paper, scissors...

However, my humble top 3 for consideration.

1. Daemons.
Lost a bit and gained a bit in 8th. Still broadly undercosted. Still got the best SC in town. Lots of nasty synergies.

2. Skaven.
Some armies do better than others against them, has to be said. Anyway, very, very cheap, high leadership hordes. Very cheap characters and magic. HPA, Doomwheel.

3. Warriors of Chaos
Again some armies do better than others against these. Marauders with GW. Changed role for cavalry in 8th but it's still good. Hellcannon.

In all I don't know whether it's because it's still early but the only autopick for a top 3 I had was Daemons. The other two were very tricky.
In 7th a top 3 seemed clear as day. Now I scratched my head thinking about Lizardmen, DE, HE and Empire too.
This seems a good thing! :)

Rochr
17-08-2010, 21:38
This will be a very easy question but forgive my ignorance

i am a 40k player looking to get into fantasy and while reading these forums and looking at the various armies i have heard the mention of "top 3" armies. My question is what are these armies and why are they refered to as this, is it a certain way to build an army or three specific armies?

Thank you

Fantasy is not as straight forward as 40k where some combinations are what everyone plays and some codices are just plain old and broken beyond compatibility.

In Fantasy I believe every race/army has a good chance to win a game if they are played and geared properly.

Therefor I agree with most when I say that you should pick the army that you think is the coolest and most impressive looking.

Maoriboy007
17-08-2010, 21:53
Dark Elves got nailed in 8th edition a lot harder than I see people crediting here.

Not really, and certainly no more than the other "top tier" armies.


The cauldron got screwed in the FAQ fairly hard: First it used to be immune to any hit, while now it has a stat line like a warmachine and can be nixed by any cannon, or even a good barrage of light shooting with 6's wounding anything.

Its still pretty damned tough, steamtank tough, and not too hard to keep out of trouble.


Second you can't buff your hydra with the ward save thanks to the 8th nerfing of plague bearers because wards and regen don't stack.

Are you kidding? you can't make the most broken monster in the game more indestructable? Try playing VC and see how much more you get screwed by the regen rules.


Harpies got hit by the new skirmish rules and the reduced effective charge range of flyers.

All flyers/skirmishers are pretty much in the same boat.


What used to be an awesome unit....

You mean what usesd to be a broken unit. The redirecting rules actually make for a bettter game IMO and are one of the better changes. You can still redirect units, but you have to take the charge now, and they are still dirt cheap.


All of their elite troops took a hit thanks to step-up combat and improved shooting (especially template weapons), and the horde/steadfast rules.

First, all armies are in the same boat in those regards, secondly the already awesome DE offensive power got a massive boost, more so than most other armies.
DE have great combat stats, they more than gain, and are pretty well priced.


Speed is much less of a factor in all elf armies because of random charges, even though you're still paying a premium for this speed and ability to get what used to be a crucial charge because of the 7th edition army books.

:confused: Now if you manage to get the "crucial" charge on a DE army, they'll still get to strike first, even if you are ,say,a cavalry model paying for high movement. and you still march pretty damned fast...so what is the source of you complaint again?


Hydra nerfed by a dozen small cuts, not the least of which are the regen/ward save rule, the boost to large steadfast units, and the single breath attack. While it's still one of the more powerful units in the list thanks to monstrous stomp, 8th edition rules have nipped at its versatility. Still a great unit, but not as good as it used to be IMO.

The Hydra was completely broken in 7th, now its only slightly broken, and still way underpriced. Its still fully capable of wiping units out by itself.
Really, no change here...


Free hatred with ASF: I don't think there is a DE player alive who isn't annoyed by this one. Now the HEs and anything else with ASF and a higher initiative than their enemy get perma-hatred, making the DE hatred racial rule kind of blah..

The ASF rule is kind of BS, but thats HE (only) gaining, not DE losing anything.


Magic use: Dark elves are still paying a premium for the ability to cast a spell with as many power dice as they wish, something everyone gets for free in 8th edition. Most armies kept their special magic rules intact, but DEs had theirs made into common property...

:confused: What premium? The DE magic phase is still pretty damned awesome anyway, POD makes whatever "premium" you pay worth it.


Magic items: While the big two, the RoH, and the PoK are still fairly OP there are changes to 8th that help offset these

Only the RoH got a hit, its moe in line with its cost now


First RoH miscasts have a decreased value when your opponent is tossing 6 dice Purple Suns and casting it with IRF anyway.

If your opponant is casting purple sun at a DE army, feel free to laugh at him.


It's an item that is only effective when you opponent is playing with some form of moderation, not if he is going all out for the large unit killing spells.

Forcing you opponant to play risky , or punish him for playing conservative...hmmmmmm.


As for the PoK, there have always been a number of spells and magic items that don't use a strength value, even more now that 8th edition magic is in place. It's fairly easy to get around, especially as you can almost always expect it to be used by a DE player..

PoK is still the best Ward save in the game,no question.


To quickly wrap it up, Cold One Knights are junk as are most cavalry, but they got hit doubly hard because fear is also nerfed while still stupidity stayed the same...

Well, CoK are now ITP as well, have great stats and Hatred. In comparison to most cavalry they are a step ahead (short of Chaos Knighs and Platinum(Blood) knights). Dont complain to a VC player about fear :eyebrows:


My summation is that Dark Elves are not a top tier or even one of the better armies anymore...

At worst in what looks to be a 4 tier system in ths eedition, they are at the top of the second tier.


They didn't get hit overly hard (like WEs)

you got that right....


but they missed out on many of the 8th edition buffs...

:wtf: Striking first with Initiative, extra high WS hatred attacks, steadfast , ranked hi BS shooting, Great magic with extra PD generation over a PD cap........


I'd go as far as to say they are mid-range at best, and..

You'd be going a bit too far.


that is only thanks to their ability to buy cheap spearmen and hydras, and anyone who plays them will tell you these old tricks don't go very far in Hordehammer.

???


One last thing, DE Assassins: You can have fewer of them thanks to percentages, but that's a good thing because the new step-up rules have made an assassin a one turn deal thanks to his low T and no armor.

Assassins don't come under percentages, and they are still good at taking out enemy characters. He CAN have a ward save, and you have to hit him first.

Minsc
18-08-2010, 01:07
Wow Minsc- you are a hero for pointing it out! You get a shiny new button

Your sarcasm does you no credit.
My reply wasn't really that unpolite - you were talking out of your ****; you had no clue what you were talking about.
Your latter reply is just embarrassing - for yourself.

asdfmovie
18-08-2010, 01:25
i think a top three army would be the top three armys that people play.

Odominus
18-08-2010, 01:38
Your sarcasm does you no credit.
My reply wasn't really that unpolite - you were talking out of your ****; you had no clue what you were talking about.
Your latter reply is just embarrassing - for yourself.

I was partially correct: Ogres can get it. And I knew Empire didnt get to pay 5pts for it. So there was a bit of a clue lol. Embarrass? On warseer board? Is that even possible? And what do you have against shiny buttons mr serious? Oooohh don't flame me Minsc. If a 5 pt discrepancy sends you to the boards to over react to an afterthought, then have at it. Lay waste. I will sit back and watch the baldurs gate guy:D

*and scene*

Minsc
18-08-2010, 02:02
I was partially correct: Ogres can get it. And I knew Empire didnt get to pay 5pts for it


Yea, Empire has to pay 15pts for enchanted shield. Everyone else is 5pts.

Perhaps in your own little universe that can ble classified as "partially correct", although in the real world you're simply lying.
Anyway, I'm done with you. Apparently you're set on starting a flamewar for some reason instead of just admitting you're wrong, so there's no point in further debate.

Have a nice day Odominus. :)

Odominus
18-08-2010, 02:06
I said I was off 5-10 pts. What do you want? A finger? Im giving everyone a free pass these days. The rules have only been out a month. Shyt happens but I don't hate over it. Especially when so inconsequential. But thats just me.


Have a nice day Odominus. :)

And you as well Minsc. You as well:D

sergentzimm
18-08-2010, 04:39
local GT had Deamons, Orcs & goblins and HE 1, 2, and 3. Pretty light showing, but still. The deamon army had four units. Two max flamers, one huge block of nurgle w/ herald and one huge block of horrors. Changeling, skulltaker and a wizard as well. Pretty nasty.

Venkh
18-08-2010, 09:47
And you as well Minsc. You as well

A bit of advice from military canon.

Never reinforce failure.

You got PWNED on the internet. The best strategy is to stalk that bald guy through the internet jungle and when he makes a mistake, pounce on it and denounce him for a buffoon. Only then will your e-peen be restored.

Sorry to butt in but I hate to see someone getting whipped so relentlessly.

Back on topic.

Demons are still good but half of their list got nerfed really hard and the core is very vulnerable to the tools available to the big 7 I mentioned earlier.

Ld Bomb doesnt work as well as it used to now that Fear/Terror has been nerfed. It works nicely for panic tests and steadfast break tests though!

freddieyu
18-08-2010, 10:22
The best thing I like about this thread is that people are actually arguing which army is best, unlike in 7th where it was an easy 1,2,3...this portents well for 8th ed so far....

This, in my opinion, already makes 8th ed a success...I hope GW doesn't screw it up like what they did in 7th ed...

drmckool
18-08-2010, 15:56
The best thing I like about this thread is that people are actually arguing which army is best, unlike in 7th where it was an easy 1,2,3...this portents well for 8th ed so far....

This, in my opinion, already makes 8th ed a success...I hope GW doesn't screw it up like what they did in 7th ed...

oh it will be... It will be

TheKingInYellow
18-08-2010, 20:59
8th seems balanced now, because the uber-lists are still being developed...

Don't get me wrong I still think it's better balanced than 7th, but sooner or later someone will come up with a way to run something unstoppable.

Dual Hellcanon w/ Doom Totem and Doom and Darkness from a Diabolic Splendor Daemon Prince maybe?

goodz
18-08-2010, 21:29
I think it is better balanced now then before.

Lizardmen/Dark elves/High Elves/Deamons are the top 4 i think i most fear just because magic is a little whacky. I am thinking WoC/Orcs and Goblins/Skaven/Vampire counts/Wood Elves/Empire/Dwarves for a mid tier and Tomb Kings/Bretonians for a lower Tier. This will probably shift quite a bit though:P

Grandhigh Poobah
18-08-2010, 21:54
This. A million times this.
This is what should guide people in their choice of an army, not the "tier" stuff.


1) One you want to play with
2) One you like the background/models
3) One you want to paint.

I couldn't agree more, if the imagery grabs you then paint it, personally I think the fluffier and more themed the better!

leeoaks
18-08-2010, 21:55
i have to go with dwarf gunline in 2k.

12-14 warmchines and a couple of chunky shooting blocks and your good to go, throw in the anvil and your really really good to go.

UberBeast
19-08-2010, 04:21
Dual Hellcanon w/ Doom Totem and Doom and Darkness from a Diabolic Splendor Daemon Prince maybe?

I've already faced this once now. My DE army was running off the board before I even got my first move.