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Reflex
17-08-2010, 01:24
This was just a thought as I was playing a small game on the weekend. I was using my necrons and I was against guard. He had 6 mortars in the army, and they were hitting alot.. (these were being a giant pain in the backside.)

So it got me thinking after he was popping smoke on several chimeras.

Should some weapons (Grenade launchers, Mortars etc) be able to pop smoke?

There are many ways to work this into the game: just a few ideas would be that it works the same as vehicles. Move: GL pops smoke (maybe has to roll to hit?) and they are granted a 5+ cover save? but cant shoot or assault?

just another game mechanic. I was also thinking other armies should have acess to such weapons/abilities. This could be something for 6th edition maybe, if they were to dull down the ability of cover?

just a thought, what do people think?

mrln68
17-08-2010, 01:32
It isn't a hard thing to do in game - and there are a few that have it...but I don't see that going into 40K. The direction it is going right now is for simpler as opposed to more complex.

Wolf 11x
17-08-2010, 01:34
I like the idea of squads having smoke grenades. One use per game and the squads gets a 4+ cover but cannot run, shoot, or assault. I imagine that was their intent with "going to ground."

Bunnahabhain
17-08-2010, 01:46
Yes, smoke would be a good idea. I've though about it before, as it:

Slows down movement. go find a fog. Now run full speed through it. Everything is more difficult--> difficult terrain. Try it in a wood, you'll end up in casulty

Shortens sight lines. It makes for tough calls, blocking your own sight lines,a s well as enemy ones.

Depending on how it is executed in game, it can also be very random- drifting smoke (if you have smoke clouds, rather than smoked units), say between movement and firing, you can set up firing positions, only to have them disrupted...

However, it is only worth doing if in from the beginning of a new rules set , not patched on as yet another extra...

Meriwether
17-08-2010, 05:03
I agree with Bunnahabhain -- it's a good idea, but shouldn't just be tacked on to the rules as-is. That way lies madness.

impala
17-08-2010, 05:08
No one remembers the Joy Of Blind Grenades from 2nd edition? Some things were removed for a *good* reason...

Meriwether
17-08-2010, 05:17
Oh, I remember them well. That's why they need careful consideration if they are going to be added. The whole "this automatically blocks LOS and you can take a bajillion of them" thing didn't work so well!

Billy
17-08-2010, 06:19
Modern armies use smoke screens. It would be cool so see armies 38,000 years from now using smoke as well. There is alot of cover saves already up for grab in the current edition. IMO the current cover rules would have to be tonned down to make smoke useful without every model in every game getting a cover save.

Completely blocking line of sight on a roll of 4+ might work.

Or a BS reduction of -1 for shooting through smoke might be cool.

Gorbad Ironclaw
17-08-2010, 06:38
No one remembers the Joy Of Blind Grenades from 2nd edition? Some things were removed for a *good* reason...

Jetbike Harlequins with Blind Grenades were awesome! 12"+ walls of you "can't see anything" :evilgrin:

But it works just fine in several other wargames (WM/H, FoW and Infinity all have versions of it and that works fine) so you could have it in 40k if you wanted to. And while the best solution would of course be to have it integrated as a core part of the gameplay (along with meaningful suppressive fire) depending on how extensive you want it to be you could quite easily let selected weapons fire smoke templates that will either block line of sight or more simple just provide cover.

Malice313
17-08-2010, 06:55
No one remembers the Joy Of Blind Grenades from 2nd edition? Some things were removed for a *good* reason...

Oh I do!:( RT was worse!!! That's what drew me to the thread. I wanted to get on here to warn people before I curled up into a foetal position and started sobbing from the repressed trauma of having to roll for and move two dozen Smoke Grenades before you could roll for the two dozen Blind Grenades, before you could roll for the dozen Plasma Grenades, before you could roll for the half dozen Vortex Grenade, before you could even start your turn.

If people hate Lash of Submission and Obliterator armies wait until you have an entire Devastator squad covered in Blind Grenades.


Modern armies use smoke screens. It would be cool so see armies 38,000 years from now using smoke as well.

It is a nice idea, but the future tech argument cuts both ways. A few of armies like SM's and Eldar (probably Tyrands too) have sensory enhancement to defeat the effects of smoke.

Krovin-Rezh
17-08-2010, 07:29
If 40k were to have a smoke screen mechanic built into certain weapons, it would need to be something that:
1. Doesn't take much time & effort to use by the players. (keep the game moving)
2. Doesn't take much away from the unit/model using it. (keep the armies fighting)
3. Isn't effective enough to stop most shots (or assaults), especially if there is going to be a lot of them used. (keep the casualties coming)

With those guidelines, you'd think it would be almost useless, but if most blast weapons left an area of 5+ cover and difficult terrain, that might work. Just place the blast zone marker on the spot where it scatters or hits (moving models as with the mawloc's blast), so the gameplay stays fast. Beer, pretzels, and smoke screens co-mingling happily together.

You would need some blast zone markers to replace the blast marker with (small and large), which wouldn't be hard at all. Would be another easy profit item for GW too.

Born Again
17-08-2010, 07:32
Smoke/ Blind grenades are part of a stratagem in Cities of Death. If you wanted there's no reason you couldn't expand the rule to all units for an agreed points cost in friendly games, I don't think it would upset balance too much, if at all.

Pushkin
17-08-2010, 09:09
How about something like:

Smoke/Blind Grenades (depending on army) + 3 Points per model
Once per game the unit may use smoke grenades/blind grenades instead of shooting and assualting. Grants a 4+ cover save to the unit, and any independent character attached to that unit, in respect of any attacks made in the opposing players next shooting phase.

Sai-Lauren
17-08-2010, 09:23
I'd say a minimum of 3 points for Smoke and 7 points for Blind, both give 5+ cover saves, additionally, Blind forces shooting player to reroll all hits.

Only certain units can get Blind (Guard Stormtroopers, Inquisition, possibly Marine scouts).

Eldar don't get either (although Rangers could possibly get Blind), but Warlocks can have Conceal (which acts as Smoke on a specified unit) or an enhanced Conceal (as Blind, possibly an option to reduce the effect but spread it over an area to give Smoke on all units within a certain distance) for a higher cost.

And before anyone complains, yes, that would make Eldar players cast it every turn, but IMO, that kind of power does fit well into the Eldar play style, and the troops getting the power's benefit are not completely invulnerable anyway.

AndrewGPaul
17-08-2010, 09:39
I don't know that it's worth distinguishing between Blind and Smoke grenades. The only difference was that forces with some sort of low-light gear could see through smoke but not blind. In practice, that meant every army except Orks and Tyranids. I'm not sure if that really merits a difference in rules; it's probably as easy to assume that all armies are equally able to penetrate 'smokescreens' through whatever handwave you wish to invoke.

Pushkin
17-08-2010, 09:41
If youre paying 3 points for smoke and it only gives you a 5+ cover save you i don't think it would be worth it. For 3 points would you be able to use it every turn or once per game?

Problem is you can already go to ground for free and get a 6+ yes it has it's drawbacks, but why would you pay 3 points for +1. I think you have to make it worth while.

I like the rerolling hits idea. maybe just have no cover save and just forces players to reroll hits?

Malice313
17-08-2010, 10:02
5+ saves are not allowed in 4+k!!!:mad:

Born Again
17-08-2010, 11:47
I get the sarcasm, but it's a common misconception and blown way out of proportion. Variant cover saves are right there on page 21. Popping smoke at 5+ could be combined with going to ground for a 4+ save.

LonelyPath
17-08-2010, 13:11
No one remembers the Joy Of Blind Grenades from 2nd edition? Some things were removed for a *good* reason...

I remember them in RT, a combo of those, haywire and anti-plant grenades and you dominated the table, lol.

Chaos and Evil
17-08-2010, 13:13
The last thing 40k needs is even more rules.

Sai-Lauren
17-08-2010, 13:25
I was originally going to say 5+/3+ for Blind, but opted for the rerolled hits instead for the latter.

Could easily do it the other way around - smoke means you have to reroll hits, Blind gives you the 5+ cover save as well.



I don't know that it's worth distinguishing between Blind and Smoke grenades. The only difference was that forces with some sort of low-light gear could see through smoke but not blind. In practice, that meant every army except Orks and Tyranids. I'm not sure if that really merits a difference in rules; it's probably as easy to assume that all armies are equally able to penetrate 'smokescreens' through whatever handwave you wish to invoke.

Why do we have Crack grenades and Melta bombs then, after all, they're effectively doing the same thing? :)

Smoke's the cheap and generally available one, Blind's the very expensive and reserved for elite units one.



5+ saves are not allowed in 4+k!!!

That was the statement for the 3rd edition Crux Terminatus save (if it deserves to be 4+, it should be 4+, else it should be 6+, odd numbers like 3+ and 5+ are weak, wimpy in betweens) - but what did that save eventually become? ;)

I think 4+ cover save is way too much - Smoke's something that just obscures where you are, not a physical barrier that stops shots hitting you.

IMO, the best way to actually do it would be shooting modifiers (say -1 for smoke, -2 for Blind), but we all know there's more chance of Marines being relegated to no new figures, necessary rules updates only, than GW doing that.

Krovin-Rezh
17-08-2010, 14:40
Forcing rerolls of successful hits doesn't work if the opponent has twin-linked, guide, etc. You'd only be able to make them reroll the original hits, not the misses that turn into hits the second time around (can't reroll a reroll). Unless you want to change that too, but it becomes messy.

I'm not a fan of adding grenades for the job. They are the least well defined weapons in the game, and are largely abstracted to keep the game flowing. Tau photon grenades are basically the same concept as blind grenades after all, amiright?

So I say stick to letting the enemy shoot blasts at you and leaving smoke that way, or bring your own blasts to ensure you get some cover to advance under. It might even be worth letting blasts target a location rather than a model just to make this a likely tactic.

EDIT: Forgot to mention the smoke would only last until the start of your next turn. That way the markers don't get too numerous.

Sai-Lauren
17-08-2010, 15:35
Forcing rerolls of successful hits doesn't work if the opponent has twin-linked, guide, etc. You'd only be able to make them reroll the original hits, not the misses that turn into hits the second time around (can't reroll a reroll). Unless you want to change that too, but it becomes messy.

Actually, twin-linked and guide say misses are rerolled, smoke would say hits are rerolled - you could either throw the dice, then pick them all up no matter the result and throw them again, or throw one set of dice with no rerolls. :)



I'm not a fan of adding grenades for the job. They are the least well defined weapons in the game, and are largely abstracted to keep the game flowing. Tau photon grenades are basically the same concept as blind grenades after all, amiright?

Nope, Photon grenades are basically flash-bangs to disorientate an enemy, Blind is smoke to conceal you, but with extra chaff and so on to really mess around with electronic sensor suites.



EDIT: Forgot to mention the smoke would only last until the start of your next turn. That way the markers don't get too numerous.

Agreed, basically the same as the vehicle smoke rules.

Luisjoey
17-08-2010, 15:50
With the nightfight rules is well enough!

Cant figure out a trygon or a marneus calgar stepping out from a smoke cloud over you!

Leftenant Gashrog
17-08-2010, 16:37
For removing smoke I'd copy Battlefleet Gothics method of dealing with blast markers: roll a d6 at the end of your turn, remove that many of your choice.

Meriwether
17-08-2010, 16:57
Ugh, what a mess. I'd just have it last for one turn.

Krovin-Rezh
21-08-2010, 01:36
With the nightfight rules is well enough!

Cant figure out a trygon or a marneus calgar stepping out from a smoke cloud over you!
Well that's not fair. I used Mawlocs only as an example of how to move models out of the way (faster than trying to place a template under them). Only the blast weapon itself would be attacking the targets.

And night fighting doesn't work for this tactical option since it is rarely used (or allowed) in any mission, mostly because it favors assault armies. Smoke would slow down shooting and assaults, and is not free global constant. That makes it much more balanced and tactical.

And while it would be cool to have smoke last a random number of turns like BFG, 40k is already bloated with things to keep track of.

callsign-husker
21-08-2010, 02:31
why not use the rules for smoke shells given for Griffon Heavy mortars in Imperial Armour Volume 3?
Choose a friendly unit within range to protect with a smoke screen. The smoke provides infantry with a 5+ cover save for one turn (place some cotton wool in front of the unit to represent it) the unit protected by a smoke screen cannot fire through it themselves. If the smoke is fired to hide a vehicle, then it counts as if it had used smoke launchers.


They seem like pretty fair (protecting a unit but in turn limiting it's actions) rules and they're straight from GW.

Using this as a basis for grenades you could probably use them in three different ways:
-defensively (pop a smoke screen on the unit using the grenades)
-aggressively (exactly the same as frag grenades)
-anti-tank (treat the vehicle as if it'd popped smoke launchers)
would recommend making them one-use though. You'd still have to sort out the points cost yourself though (it's a 5 point upgrade for the Griffon but that's multiple use, i'd recommend 2 or 3 points per model).

Krovin-Rezh
21-08-2010, 07:46
That looks like it would well work too, husker. I think it would just come down to preference. I think it would be very cool to have games regularly show smoking craters where the explosions happen. It would make games look much more epic to behold on the tabletop (hehe, EPIC also does something similar actually).

ehlijen
21-08-2010, 08:20
For removing smoke I'd copy Battlefleet Gothics method of dealing with blast markers: roll a d6 at the end of your turn, remove that many of your choice.

Careful, that only works for BFG because you only create blastmarkers by shooting the enemy (ie what you'd do anyway). If you create blastmarkers simply when you want to, what's to stop a player from deploying extra smoke in useless locations so he can take those of first and be guaranteed to keep the ones he actually wants to have?

callsign-husker
21-08-2010, 15:31
I suppose it all comes down to how much time you have; the new direction alot of the rules have taken (codices and rulebooks) has been to streamline complexities and speed games up so thaty people actually have the time to play the hobby, if your buying from FW it shows a dedication/willingness to playing the hobby and time isn't really a factor.

Have always liked the idea of placing a crater after each blast but it's not really feasible: facing an IG force your open ground will get pretty clogged up with crater templates very quickly!!

Bunnahabhain
21-08-2010, 16:20
I suppose it all comes down to how much time you have;

Correct



the new direction alot of the rules have taken (codices and rulebooks) has been to streamline complexities and speed games up so thaty people actually have the time to play the hobby, if your buying from FW it shows a dedication/willingness to playing the hobby and time isn't really a factor.


Dead wrong.

Just about every codex since 5th ed has introduced pointless complexities that have done anything but streamline and speed up the game. If you wanted to streamline it, a codex would have no special rules at all and just use USRs. However,t he core rules aren't really good enough for this. The core rules themselves are equally bad, with things like wound allocation, and splitting movement ( move + run + assualt) slowing and complicating things no end.


As to FW, many people buy from there as the models simply look better, often for compatible costs- ie the FW tau suits, or it is the only way the models are available- ie half the Guard HS section. Don't assume all FW customers are hardcore hobbyists

callsign-husker
21-08-2010, 16:36
How many people would rather play without those additional rules you'd label as pointless? You said it yourself: "the core rules aren't really good enough". If the army specific rules were done away with the galaxy would be marching under Astartes banners.

As to the FW, i was not refering to the kits but the Imperial Armour books which are now 40-45 a time (plus p&p).

Aiwass
21-08-2010, 17:53
I go for smoke screen rules. The FoW rules are pretty good, or something like this, also the artillery rules (all guns, repeat!).

neko
21-08-2010, 23:10
I'd imagine that it would be pretty simple to do smoke grenades - just use the rules for vehicle smoke launchers.

For anything longer ranged, such as grenade launchers, missile launchers, and artillery, I would probably go with the approach of saying that you target a unit within range and they count as having used smoke grenades. There would be some issues however such as a single grenade launcher covering rediculously sized units, so you'd probably also need tweaks of some description.

callsign-husker
21-08-2010, 23:27
just add that they'll only cover a squad numbering a maximum of X man-sized figures (ogryns etc count as 2). 10-11 would probably be a good figure in line with the average troop transport capacity (+1 for characters joining the unit), wouldn't want to go too much more in depth with it as you'd be slowing/over-complicating gameplay again.

Krovin-Rezh
22-08-2010, 02:14
Have always liked the idea of placing a crater after each blast but it's not really feasible: facing an IG force your open ground will get pretty clogged up with crater templates very quickly!!
Yeah, I'd have to test out some extreme examples to see how much that really affects game complexity & speed. Thing is, you're already spending lots of time scattering the blast attack, rolling to wound, allocating wounds, determining cover, taking saves. I can't see pushing the models out of the way and leaving a smoke marker adding much time or effort to the process. Like I said, I'll have to test it out, but the number of blast weapons you have in both armies (that can shoot) is the maximum number of markers that would ever be on the board.

callsign-husker
22-08-2010, 03:10
true but for craters you'd have to multiply that number by at least 6

Krovin-Rezh
22-08-2010, 04:19
true but for craters you'd have to multiply that number by at least 6
No, each one only lasts to the end of the next player turn.

callsign-husker
22-08-2010, 05:31
sorry: thought you were referring to something other than smoke screen effect then