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Iron-Halo-Marine077
18-08-2010, 09:40
I know some ppl say they are 9' but orcs are about 10' and I thoght most orcs are taller then space marines what do you think??

Lord Damocles
18-08-2010, 09:44
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173466&highlight=height
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118983&highlight=height
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111335&highlight=height
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32494&highlight=height

Khorney Joke
18-08-2010, 09:56
A typical Marine is detailed to be about 7 or 8 feet tall if I remember correctly. Stretched out, and Ork exceeds this, but since they're mostly all hunched over the typical Boy is around the same height. Nobs are bigger still, and Bosses are to Space Marines what the typical human being is to Gary Coleman.

Iron-Halo-Marine077
18-08-2010, 10:17
does anyone have pics of a space marine with out his gear on?

Balfor
18-08-2010, 10:35
I though space marines were 8 feet tall in full battlegear?

Hellebore
18-08-2010, 11:19
If they wear 6" platforms...

Hellebore

Grimtuff
18-08-2010, 11:26
OP: Have a read of this. It is a very interesting read. The author posts on here if i'm not mistaken. ;)
http://www.philipsibbering.com/WH40KRP/40K_9_Marine_1_Morphology.shtml

Philip S
18-08-2010, 12:42
OP: Have a read of this. It is a very interesting read. The author posts on here if i'm not mistaken. ;)
I sure do ;)

That page includes this link (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?community=&catId=&categoryId=&pIndex=4&aId=9400003&start=5) where Jes talks about the marine - basically around 7'6" with a mass similar to four basketball players bolted together.

That is what I designed: a body that is around 7'6" tall with a mass of around 780lbs (which is actually a bit light compared to Jes' concept, but that's because some part like the head do not scale than much). The body fits the official armour template - however the body is not official as it has not appeared in any artwork, only the armour has shown up in artwork.

It should also be noted that the depiction of marines varies a lot in the artwork, but it is all based of the armour template.

Philip

Sai-Lauren
18-08-2010, 13:20
Phil, someone of that kind of size would be dead - their body core temperature would be up at levels where they'd be cooking themselves, even sat still.

Or, even assuming you can get around that somehow, have you ever read any Judge Dredd? That kind of weight is where Fatties start, and I don't see many Marines rumbling around with belliwheels. ;)

That also means that a Rhino's lugging near enough 8000 lbs of meat around - before you add in armour and weapons.

Philip S
18-08-2010, 14:30
Phil, someone of that kind of size would be dead - their body core temperature would be up at levels where they'd be cooking themselves, even sat still.
No they wouldn't - there are loads of mammals that weigh more than that.


That also means that a Rhino's lugging near enough 8000 lbs of meat around - before you add in armour and weapons.
It's a Rhino.

We can build vehicles now that can carry more than 8,000lbs.

Anyway, getting back on topic, I designed a model that matched Jes' diagram, and feedback from BL. As far as I can tell, that is what a marine looks like.

Philip

Sai-Lauren
18-08-2010, 15:50
No they wouldn't - there are loads of mammals that weigh more than that.

The larger cats, Horses, Bears, cattle (Cows/ Buffalo/ Bison), Hippos, Rhinos and Elephants. ? :)

And so many more mammals that weigh significantly less - including good old Homo Sapiens.

They've all evolved over millenia to carry that amount of bulk. Marines are converted from Humans, and they, well, haven't.

The loading on their joints would render most of them arthritic before they even got to the 10th company.

Paul White's listed at 500lbs, and he's a very large guy - even accounting for muscle being denser than fat tissue, a 780lb Marine is a massive target.



It's a Rhino.

We can build vehicles now that can carry more than 8,000lbs.

8000lbs of Marines, plus their armour, plus their weapons, ammunition, any support equipment (medical supplies, tools, comms gear)...

Shall we say 25,000lbs? If so, for comparison, a Thunderhawk loaded with three squads would be carrying more weight than the bomb load of a B-52.
A squad of Terminators in a Land Raider is going to be the same, if not even more.

Now think of the engine that would be needed to power the Rhino to move that lot, the amount of fuel that engine would need (and the increase in engine power to move that fuel), the supply chain needed to get that fuel to the Rhino in the field, the range limits, the cost of the engine, transmission, suspension...

Those are the downsides I can think of, so what advantages do you think would come from them having that weight to justify having to work around them?

Philip S
18-08-2010, 16:25
The larger cats, Horses, Bears, cattle (Cows/ Buffalo/ Bison), Hippos, Rhinos and Elephants. ? :)
The point is they don't overheat.


They've all evolved over millenia to carry that amount of bulk. Marines are converted from Humans, and they, well, haven't.
Um, it's 38,000 years in the future, and the largest humans are Ogryn (and I suspect a lot of humans populations with less extreme characteristics of the Ogryn, but far more than current humans), the marine could come from stock that are not that far off the final marine. If a young recruit would naturally mature into man of similar size to a marine, then their is not that much to change. Reading the initiation rites it does not sound like there is a massive increase in skeleton size, and much of it could thickening of bones.

The few populations that marines draw recruits from my have evolved (and/ or genetically engineered during Dark Age of Technology) to be perfect specimens for transformation into marines.

I doubt they are taking a humans who have stats comparable to the average of today's humans. If they did it would be a massive increase and would seem to be biologically difficult - but if the recruit is destined to be massive anyway...

It's not specified how large recruits are, but we do know they are 'heroes', strong, and very young. Perhaps some super fast growing, 'double muscle', youngsters overloaded with testosterone would be ideal?

We know that successful recruits are very rare (considering the size of the Imperium).


8000lbs of Marines, plus their armour, plus their weapons, ammunition, any support equipment (medical supplies, tools, comms gear)...

Shall we say 25,000lbs? If so, for comparison, a Thunderhawk loaded with three squads would be carrying more weight than the bomb load of a B-52.
A squad of Terminators in a Land Raider is going to be the same, if not even more.
Your point being?


Those are the downsides I can think of, so what advantages do you think would come from them having that weight to justify having to work around them?
Fast one man IFV, virtual small arms immunity, and carrying a massive gun.

These are only advantages in specific situations (the biggest advantage would be taking on enemies within STC spec bunker complexes).

Marines would fulfil a specific specialised role (with less demanding special-ops handled by the IG storm troopers and such)

Philip

Col. Tartleton
18-08-2010, 16:52
I like that people can accept they have three lungs, two hearts, telescoping eyes, ultra sensative ears, an ossified skeleton, their musculature replaced with higher grade stuff, marrowlike organs to produce blood because their skeleton doesn't, advanced platelets and basic regenerative capabilities, their entire torso embedded with sockets and jacks set in what amounts to bulletproof carbon fibre that lies under their skin, a second liver and hyper immune system to make them virtually immune to toxins, special salivary glands that produce a corrosive poison, and in many cases giant vampire canines. Yet they can't accept that they weigh about 800 pounds.

Did I mention they have an inch thick of servo assisted armor made out of what is probably the same sorts of super ceramics they use on the space shuttle? Powered by a fusion reactor? With fully self sustaining systems, who can survive off eating their enemies for years? Their self inducing catatonic state and ability to never need sleep? Or how about the fact their basic side arm is the same thing that we use on a Bradley fighting vehicle? Or...

Again, they're SPACE MARINES.

Grimtuff
18-08-2010, 17:57
I like that people can accept they have three lungs, two hearts, telescoping eyes, ultra sensative ears, an ossified skeleton, their musculature replaced with higher grade stuff, marrowlike organs to produce blood because their skeleton doesn't, advanced platelets and basic regenerative capabilities, their entire torso embedded with sockets and jacks set in what amounts to bulletproof carbon fibre that lies under their skin, a second liver and hyper immune system to make them virtually immune to toxins, special salivary glands that produce a corrosive poison, and in many cases giant vampire canines. Yet they can't accept that they weigh about 800 pounds.

Hear hear! Let's stir up this Hornet's nest further and add Thunderwolf Cavalry to the mix! ;)

Kage2020
18-08-2010, 18:48
I like that people can accept they have three lungs, two hearts, telescoping eyes, ultra sensative ears, an ossified skeleton, their musculature replaced with higher grade stuff, marrowlike organs to produce blood because their skeleton doesn't, advanced platelets and basic regenerative capabilities, their entire torso embedded with sockets and jacks set in what amounts to bulletproof carbon fibre that lies under their skin, a second liver and hyper immune system to make them virtually immune to toxins, special salivary glands that produce a corrosive poison, and in many cases giant vampire canines. Yet they can't accept that they weigh about 800 pounds.
I'm not sure, but I believe that it is called a difference opinion. :D

If there isn't already, there should be some Law/Rules that defines how long it takes when discussing the 40k universe where "rationality" is being used before some points out that it's fundamentally irrational--a fantasy--so what's the point. :D

(And incidentally, not entirely sure that I agree with your break down of the physiology, BTW, e.g. Larraman's Organs. :D)

Personally I don't buy Phil's conclusions about Marines, armour, etc. (Different design agendas are at play. He validates the miniature/40k image at makes the Marine fit the armour, others think the artwork is cool but about as realistic as manga and make the armour fit the Marine. YMMV.) On the other hand, I like the fact that he's got his own rational interpretation of the Marines that works for him and he consistently applies his own special form of rational-irrationality to Phil-verse. It's all good.

Kage

Iron-Halo-Marine077
18-08-2010, 19:18
wow guys so many of u guys have so many thoghts of this it makes me think lol

Karl MkVI
18-08-2010, 19:40
wow guys so many of u guys have so many thoghts of this it makes me think lol

Was this sentence meant to sound as aimless as it did? :D


I like that people can accept they have three lungs, two hearts, telescoping eyes, ultra sensative ears, an ossified skeleton, their musculature replaced with higher grade stuff, marrowlike organs to produce blood because their skeleton doesn't, advanced platelets and basic regenerative capabilities, their entire torso embedded with sockets and jacks set in what amounts to bulletproof carbon fibre that lies under their skin, a second liver and hyper immune system to make them virtually immune to toxins, special salivary glands that produce a corrosive poison, and in many cases giant vampire canines. Yet they can't accept that they weigh about 800 pounds.

THIS. pure awesome, Colonel.

Iron-Halo-Marine077
18-08-2010, 20:14
lol yeah :D

Grimtuff
18-08-2010, 20:24
lol yeah :D

Either post properly or not at all. Warseer has rules regarding text speak and if you don't want to get off on the wrong foot I suggest you don't use it. :rolleyes:

@Kage: FWIW I don't think SMs look like that either, I seethem as being lean but muscular, sort of like Arnie in Predator or WWE wrestler Randy Orton

Iron-Halo-Marine077
18-08-2010, 20:31
Either post properly or not at all. Warseer has rules regarding text speak and if you don't want to get off on the wrong foot I suggest you don't use it. :rolleyes:

@Kage: FWIW I don't think SMs look like that either, I seethem as being lean but muscular, sort of like Arnie in Predator or WWE wrestler Randy Orton

sorry what do you mean get off on the wrong foot?? are you talking to me or some one els? and this is a properly post..

Son of Sanguinius
18-08-2010, 20:55
and this is a properly post..

Lack of punctuation and grammar says otherwise. You don't want a reputation for being too lazy to make your posts readable.

To answer your original question, most figures put them between 7 and 8 feet tall in standard power armor.

Kage2020
18-08-2010, 21:37
@Kage: FWIW I don't think SMs look like that either, I seethem as being lean but muscular, sort of like Arnie in Predator or WWE wrestler Randy Orton
As I said, opinions vary and this can be a good thing. You just have to be honest to yourself about what is important to you. :D

Still need a good name for that Law. :shifty:

Kage

Col. Tartleton
19-08-2010, 01:03
Kages Law of "WE SHOULD TAKE AWAY THEIR METAL BOXES!"

Part of me says we should up their numbers and take away some of their ridiculousness.

Part of me says they should make them intimidating enough so that a company of marines can turn the tide in a world war...

"Hello Heretic."

"Oh God!"

*bang*

"Victory for the God Emperor!"

"Oh my God he just shot Roosevelt!"

Son of Sanguinius
19-08-2010, 01:31
Kages Law of "WE SHOULD TAKE AWAY THEIR METAL BOXES!"

Part of me says we should up their numbers and take away some of their ridiculousness.

Part of me says they should make them intimidating enough so that a company of marines can turn the tide in a world war...

"Hello Heretic."

"Oh God!"

*bang*

"Victory for the God Emperor!"

"Oh my God he just shot Roosevelt!"

Both parts of you should be saying "Tactics!"

With tactics, a company of them can retain their awesome factor and limited numbers and still change the course of a whole system war.

UselessThing
19-08-2010, 01:40
Part of me says we should up their numbers and take away some of their ridiculousness.

Part of me says they should make them intimidating enough so that a company of marines can turn the tide in a world war...

Dude, just imagine how awesome Marines need to be to deserve their reputation. Is that not awesome?

No holding back, no excuses, just the Marines you have always dreamed of.

Vote option B.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/paul_gylyan.boielle/foecutter.jpg

Col. Tartleton
19-08-2010, 02:03
Both parts of you should be saying "Tactics!"

With tactics, a company of them can retain their awesome factor and limited numbers and still change the course of a whole system war.

Tactics? :eek: Tactics are for cowards. Warriors charge machine guns! :cool:


Dude, just imagine how awesome Marines need to be to deserve their reputation. Is that not awesome?

No holding back, no excuses, just the Marines you have always dreamed of.

Vote option B.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/paul_gylyan.boielle/foecutter.jpg

My sense of humor finds that harmlessly sexually suggestive.

Son of Sanguinius
19-08-2010, 02:05
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/paul_gylyan.boielle/foecutter.jpg

Is that supposed to look like Cloud's sword?

UselessThing
19-08-2010, 02:10
Is that supposed to look like Cloud's sword?

Yes. It is a 40' daiklave - the Foecutter.

I like to think of it as a mild reminder of how tame Mr. Sibberings Marines are.


My sense of humor finds that harmlessly sexually suggestive.

http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/963984177_j4Mre-L.jpg

Son of Sanguinius
19-08-2010, 02:12
Yes. It is a 40' daiklave - the Foecutter.

I like to think of it as a mild reminder of how tame Mr. Sibberings Marines are.

Tame? By the sheer virtue of making some goddamn explainable sense, his Marines are far scarier than GW's.

Col. Tartleton
19-08-2010, 02:31
http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/963984177_j4Mre-L.jpg

94815

They're on to me.

R0ot
19-08-2010, 07:58
Kages Law of "WE SHOULD TAKE AWAY THEIR METAL BOXES!"

Part of me says we should up their numbers and take away some of their ridiculousness.

Part of me says they should make them intimidating enough so that a company of marines can turn the tide in a world war...

"Hello Heretic."

"Oh God!"

*bang*

"Victory for the God Emperor!"

"Oh my God he just shot Roosevelt!"

You owe me a new monitor! Just covered my current one in a spray of coke. :D

Sai-Lauren
19-08-2010, 09:51
The point is they don't overheat.

And my point is they've evolved to not overheat.



Um, it's 38,000 years in the future, and the largest humans are Ogryn (and I suspect a lot of humans populations with less extreme characteristics of the Ogryn, but far more than current humans), the marine could come from stock that are not that far off the final marine. If a young recruit would naturally mature into man of similar size to a marine, then their is not that much to change. Reading the initiation rites it does not sound like there is a massive increase in skeleton size, and much of it could thickening of bones.

Ogryn could have evolved a slower metabolism to cope (with all the downsides that entails), and they're supposed to be the descendants of criminals that were shipped to that world as a prison colony and then abandoned - somewhere that only the biggest, toughest and strongest will survive.



The few populations that marines draw recruits from my have evolved (and/ or genetically engineered during Dark Age of Technology) to be perfect specimens for transformation into marines.

Fenris? Ultramar? Baal, Necromunda...

Whenever we've seen any chapter servants in the fluff (who tend to be failed aspirants) they're towered over by the Marines.



I doubt they are taking a humans who have stats comparable to the average of today's humans. If they did it would be a massive increase and would seem to be biologically difficult - but if the recruit is destined to be massive anyway...

Ultramar defence forces count as guard, Necromunda raises guard regiments and is a recruiting world for the Imperial Fists.

And the first Marines came from Terra - who amongst other things raise Guard regiments too.

So Marines don't come from naturally massive populations.



It's not specified how large recruits are, but we do know they are 'heroes', strong, and very young. Perhaps some super fast growing, 'double muscle', youngsters overloaded with testosterone would be ideal?

Most come from feral worlds, where diets are poor - although as warriors, they're probably going to get the best of what's available. The only real exception would be the Ultramarines, who recruit from an area that's relatively well advanced and have a form of Olympics to recruit, and recruitment's seen as an honour for the family, so they'd be well fed and trained so they can perform as well as possible.

So a Fenris native aspirant and an Ultramar native aspirant might look very different, but they'd have similar growth potentials - the Ultramar guy would be much closer to it.

When they're both recruited, the Fenris native suddenly gets a much better diet and can reach his natural growth potential, whilst the Ultramar native doesn't benefit as much from it because he's already close to his.

The marine enhancements then act on both in the same way, pushing both to the same height and build.



Your point being?

My point is that moving that amount of bulk around is a massive logistical issue.

A Thunderhawk doesn't need a 2 mile runway to get airborne like a B-52 does, it's got VTOL. But it still has to lift that mass (and it's own) against gravity, which may not just be 1G - consuming fuel and limiting endurance.



Fast one man IFV, virtual small arms immunity, and carrying a massive gun.

Ok, first, Marines aren't Infantry Fighting Vehicles, they're heavy/ shock infantry.

Weapons immunity comes from their armour and regenerative capabilities, neither of which rely on bulk.

Their own weapons have to be low/zero recoil because they do fight in zero gravity as well (Bolters launch the round with a small low powered charge, then the rocket motor ignites and accelerates the bolt to the target, so it hits at high velocity but doesn't impart recoil to the firer) - so again, their own bulk doesn't matter (and higher mass would be a disadvantage because they'd have to expend more energy/ fuel to maneuvre, limiting their endurance).



These are only advantages in specific situations (the biggest advantage would be taking on enemies within STC spec bunker complexes).

If even 1% of their missions are in those kinds of environments, I'd be astounded.

It's like saying they're really, really effective on Tuesdays, between the hours of 2 and 3 in the afternoon. :)



I like that people can accept they have three lungs, two hearts, telescoping eyes, ultra sensative ears, an ossified skeleton, their musculature replaced with higher grade stuff, marrowlike organs to produce blood because their skeleton doesn't, advanced platelets and basic regenerative capabilities, their entire torso embedded with sockets and jacks set in what amounts to bulletproof carbon fibre that lies under their skin, a second liver and hyper immune system to make them virtually immune to toxins, special salivary glands that produce a corrosive poison, and in many cases giant vampire canines. Yet they can't accept that they weigh about 800 pounds.

Because most of that stuff is just improvements to existing physiology and weighs very little.

And for those are added in:
Second heart's just a tube of muscle with a couple of valves to control flow - maybe it weighs about 10-12 oz.
Third lung? Couple of pounds (there's very little tissue in the lungs, and what's there is mostly a single cell thickness to facilitate gas transfer).
Betcher's gland - maybe quarter of a pound for the pair, including the ducts.

Skeletal enhancements (solid bones would be more fragile than hollow with blood cell producing marrow), muscle mass and the black carapace are the heaviest items.

Philip S
19-08-2010, 10:29
And my point is they've evolved to not overheat.
Mine to - as I go on to explain.


Most come from feral worlds, where diets are poor - although as warriors, they're probably going to get the best of what's available.
But the mature males would still be stunted compared to what they would be if they had a good diet. Which leads to;


When they're both recruited, the Fenris native suddenly gets a much better diet and can reach his natural growth potential, whilst the Ultramar native doesn't benefit as much from it because he's already close to his.
Yep. Which is way some failed aspirants may seem small in comparison to a marine.


My point is that moving that amount of bulk around is a massive logistical issue.
In a universe to 2-3 kilometre spaceship, advanced technologies like anti-grav, and plasma engines to provide power (the marine has a plasma engine in his back pack apparently).


A Thunderhawk doesn't need a 2 mile runway to get airborne like a B-52 does, it's got VTOL. But it still has to lift that mass (and it's own) against gravity, which may not just be 1G - consuming fuel and limiting endurance.
What type of VTOL? Like a harrier? Or like anti-grav?

If it's anti-grav, and you can negate gravity the Thunderhawk weighs nothing (it's a sci-fi cheat like FTL travel).


Ok, first, Marines aren't Infantry Fighting Vehicles, they're heavy/ shock infantry.
They are like a one one IFV, in that power armour is a 'vehicle'. It may be one you wear, but it is still self powered.


Weapons immunity comes from their armour and regenerative capabilities, neither of which rely on bulk.
Being bigger allows for thicker armour.


Their own weapons have to be low/zero recoil because they do fight in zero gravity as well (Bolters launch the round with a small low powered charge, then the rocket motor ignites and accelerates the bolt to the target, so it hits at high velocity but doesn't impart recoil to the firer) - so again, their own bulk doesn't matter
In agree, in space the bolter's mass is less of an issue considering the design as I see it (see below) - but once on the ground it is a issue and being huge means you can carry bigger guns that fire bigger bolts.

The version of the bolt is not official - it one of my ideas (I'm sure others came up with it too). I wrote a whole page (http://www.philipsibbering.com/WH40KRP/40K__10_Bolter.shtml) on it.


(and higher mass would be a disadvantage because they'd have to expend more energy/ fuel to maneuvre, limiting their endurance).
Some make them tiny and with advanced weapons that can kill anything - or accept that the marine has access to the extra energy and all the systems they need to implement it and to remove heat.


If even 1% of their missions are in those kinds of environments, I'd be astounded.

It's like saying they're really, really effective on Tuesdays, between the hours of 2 and 3 in the afternoon. :)
LOL. No it's not! It like saying they excel in very specific situations and because they are so rare and the galaxy so vast, there is always somewhere in the galaxy where they are needed. It like calling in a specialist, and the specialist is in demand.

Philip

Sai-Lauren
19-08-2010, 10:55
What type of VTOL? Like a harrier? Or like anti-grav?

If it's anti-grav, and you can negate gravity the Thunderhawk weighs nothing (it's a sci-fi cheat like FTL travel).

If it's a powered system (which I'd say is the more likely, as they could deploy on many different worlds with dfferent gravities), you need to burn fuel or drain batteries to supply the power.

If it's some innate property of a material, then you need to add even more of it.

And even if you negate the effects of gravity, you've still got inertia to deal with - you need to move mass around.



Being bigger allows for thicker armour.

No it doesn't - I can put on a t-shirt, or I can put on a t-shirt, a shirt, a light jumper, a fleece, a heavy coat, scarf, gloves, woolly hat and a rain poncho (Which is basically what I wore the last time I was at Heinz Field :D).

The size of the guy in the armour doesn't reflect on the thickness of the armour he's wearing - one inch on a Marine will protect him exactly the same as one inch on a Ratling.

The weight, amount of materials used and the cost will differ for each of them though - and the Ratling's a lot more difficult to hit in the first place due to his size.



LOL. No it's not! It like saying they excel in very specific situations and because they are so rare and the galaxy so vast, there is always somewhere in the galaxy where they are needed. It like calling in a specialist, and the specialist is in demand.

Marines do get called in, but there's also times when the stumble across something they need to deploy against immediately (the Deathwing short story for example).

And even when they're called in, the situation may change dramatically enough that their initial deployment isn't good enough, and they potentially need to be able to stand in adverse conditions long enough to adjust and switch back to favourable conditions.

Iron-Halo-Marine077
19-08-2010, 11:17
Mine to - as I go on to explain.


But the mature males would still be stunted compared to what they would be if they had a good diet. Which leads to;


Yep. Which is way some failed aspirants may seem small in comparison to a marine.


In a universe to 2-3 kilometre spaceship, advanced technologies like anti-grav, and plasma engines to provide power (the marine has a plasma engine in his back pack apparently).


What type of VTOL? Like a harrier? Or like anti-grav?

If it's anti-grav, and you can negate gravity the Thunderhawk weighs nothing (it's a sci-fi cheat like FTL travel).


They are like a one one IFV, in that power armour is a 'vehicle'. It may be one you wear, but it is still self powered.


Being bigger allows for thicker armour.


In agree, in space the bolter's mass is less of an issue considering the design as I see it (see below) - but once on the ground it is a issue and being huge means you can carry bigger guns that fire bigger bolts.

The version of the bolt is not official - it one of my ideas (I'm sure others came up with it too). I wrote a whole page (http://www.philipsibbering.com/WH40KRP/40K__10_Bolter.shtml) on it.


Some make them tiny and with advanced weapons that can kill anything - or accept that the marine has access to the extra energy and all the systems they need to implement it and to remove heat.


LOL. No it's not! It like saying they excel in very specific situations and because they are so rare and the galaxy so vast, there is always somewhere in the galaxy where they are needed. It like calling in a specialist, and the specialist is in demand.

Philip


nice love that show, I watch it when it comes on but yeah when I see that gun for the 1st time I was like oh hmm that is kinda like the space marines bolter gun.

Balgora
19-08-2010, 11:37
No it doesn't - I can put on a t-shirt, or I can put on a t-shirt, a shirt, a light jumper, a fleece, a heavy coat, scarf, gloves, woolly hat and a rain poncho (Which is basically what I wore the last time I was at Heinz Field :D).


I don't understand this response really unless an inch of cloth justifies an inch of armour plating..might have to explain it a little more for the denser people like myself

Relative strength is going to come into the equation, even if the marine has a lower strength to weight ratio than a normal human he's going to have a much easier time of carrying armour because of the way volume works out, so the marine guesstimates of weight have them at 2-3x the weight but that doesn't mean that their upsized armour is going to be anywhere near 2-3x as heavy as power armour on a human.

I can imagine there'd also be some joint and flexibility/mobility issues when you try to keep armour at the same thickness but downsize it.

Also in such a close combat crazy setting additional height and reach are both advantages, more weight is an advantage.

Had another theory but i've forgotten it, might come to me later.

Santar
19-08-2010, 12:23
I sure do ;)
That page includes this link (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?community=&catId=&categoryId=&pIndex=4&aId=9400003&start=5) where Jes talks about the marine

Thanks for that link, I found that very interesting. It does sound like Mr Bean interviewing Sean Pertwee though. :D

Sai-Lauren
19-08-2010, 15:10
I don't understand this response really unless an inch of cloth justifies an inch of armour plating..might have to explain it a little more for the denser people like myself

Basically, the size of the person bears no relevance to the amount of clothing or thickness of armour they can wear. Being bigger doesn't suddenly mean you can wear thicker layers.



Relative strength is going to come into the equation, even if the marine has a lower strength to weight ratio than a normal human he's going to have a much easier time of carrying armour because of the way volume works out, so the marine guesstimates of weight have them at 2-3x the weight but that doesn't mean that their upsized armour is going to be anywhere near 2-3x as heavy as power armour on a human.

Power armour is self supporting, so the person's strength doesn't really matter in this case (and it's endurance that's the real issue anyway ;))



I can imagine there'd also be some joint and flexibility/mobility issues when you try to keep armour at the same thickness but downsize it.

And the larger the person wearing it is, the larger the flexible areas have to be (weakspots).



Also in such a close combat crazy setting additional height and reach are both advantages, more weight is an advantage.

And the smaller you are, the more likely you are to get there, because you're less likely to be hit on the way in.

I'm a little under 6 foot and about 18" across the shoulders - straight on, I'm presenting about 1296 square inches of target.

Add a foot in height and keep me in proportion (so another 3" horizontally) - I'm now at around 1764 square inches (which is 136% of what I was before). And what have I really gained?

Basically, it's a compromise - yes, you need the height to get the leverage and reach in melee, but until you get there, you need to be smaller to minimise the amount of shots that hit you.

Also, having a big first strike isn't much good if your opponent is nimble enough to avoid it, then hit you back before you can recover (and additional weight here will slow you down as well).

Col. Tartleton
19-08-2010, 18:02
But we're still assuming the guy with the gun ever sees you. A marine is what? Seven odd feet tall. I'm over six.

Okay, so prone I'm what? Six-ten inches tall tops? A marine is probably going to be about two feet prone with their armor and backpack. So its probably not worth taking that stance unless you're already in cover because the power armor sort of removes the benefit of that. You aren't getting low to avoid shrapnel because regular old shrapnel isn't what you're afraid of.

Now you have the sitting position. Sitting I'm just under three feet tall. A Marine would probably be under four. This is the position a Marine sniper would shoot from cover. If the marine was tight in this position he'd probably be three feet. Not that big a difference from being prone. However a marine may not have the luxury of this stance.

Next we have the traditional crouch. This is the standard Astarte shooting position if taking fire. Depending on whether they're pausing to squeeze a shot and have taken a knee, or are just in a lowered walk they're not exposing eight feet. Probably just six give or take a bit.

Then there's standing, which is probably how they normal get around seeing as they're in powered armor which is designed to move for them, they probably do full sprints and sprinters have a pretty upright stance. They'd probably use this position while running and gunning things to death.

So you'd probably not have to deal with a million inch of target just like you don't have a million inches of target on a regular soldier.

Kage2020
19-08-2010, 20:20
Shame I didn't understand the "Metal Box" reference, Tartleton... Ah well. :eyebrows:

Kage

Col. Tartleton
20-08-2010, 01:10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO3MttgvHUY

This is probably why Dawn of War II is so much better then the first run around. The graphics help too.

It still doesn't make sense to me either though but I like the phrase.

Kage2020
20-08-2010, 01:30
Ah. Poor antagonist angst. Not quite what was being aimed for so...

/Kage

Sai-Lauren
20-08-2010, 08:43
Col. Tartleton - aside from helping me make my point that the smaller a target you present, the less easy you are to hit, it's incredibly difficult to run towards someone quickly enough to catch them unless you're standing up. :)

It makes hitting them over the head easier too. ;)

But compared to a normal human, in any of the situations you mention, a Marine will be a bigger target (and prone, he's got that massive backpack sticking up which he probably doesn't want getting hit).

Balgora
20-08-2010, 09:45
Hey i'm going to throw in another few options:
-Much of space marine power relies upon fear and the perception of being almost like gods among men, being huge and threatening help that against rebellions and the like that you don't see much on the tabletop. This is why they are painted gaudy colours and regularly ignore common sense, because they are borderline invulnerable in the fluff and do not care about being hit as much as they care about being huge and headbutting a rebel and or his demon friends in the face.

-It is easier to cross obstacles and run faster if you have a longer stride.

-Space constraints, it is quite possible that there is literally not enough space in a regular sized person to fit all the space marine additional organs.

-Big people are more impressive, and GW workers are easily impressed. Big guns are also more impressive, bigger people means bigger armour with bigger shoulders and bigger biceps for holding bigger guns with bigger bullets that leave bigger holes ripped in the big spike covered big enemies our big people are shooting with their big bullet firing big guns, and GW workers are also easily impressed by big people.

Edit: first person who makes a joke about the writers compensating for something gets a poke from something big.

Sai-Lauren
20-08-2010, 12:27
And being just under six foot, seeing someone who's even taller is still slightly disconcerting - when they're built like a brick sanitation facility, it hits intimidation quite nicely. :)

(Sigourney Weaver once said that she got some very strange looks whilst filming Alien 3 - as most people she went past on the street hadn't see a 6' tall woman with a shaved head before :))

I'm not arguing that they're not big - I've already said 7', roughly 300lbs - it's the 8 foot/ 700lbs + range that I'm arguing against, simply because there's so many things that they'll run into.

Paul Wright (The Big Show) is listed at 7', 500lbs - and a lot of that weight is fat tissue (and he's not exactly the most agile guy on the planet). A 7', 780lbs marine - even accounting for muscle being denser than fat, is going to be even bigger than he is.

Imperial Propaganda can effectively advertise them as bigger and more intimidating to keep their populace in line and make non Imperial human worlds less likely to try things, but that wouldn't work for other races - and it wouldn't make them any bigger in reality.

Balgora
20-08-2010, 12:46
wasn't the 780 pound number for 7 1/2 feet tall? makes quite a big dif o_O.

massey
20-08-2010, 14:59
I think my view is more in line with Sai-Lauren's. Marines should be of "heroic height", standing a head taller than most other people. 6'6" to 7' tall is easily enough to give them that. Kevin Peter Hall (the guy in the Predator suit, also in Harry and the Hendersons) was 7'2", and he towered over Arnold. That's tall enough.

Arguing what height they "really" are is kind of pointless, as they don't really exist and there's no definitive statement of their height in the official background. With no official background, and no way to go out and actually measure them, we're just left with what feels right. So what feels right? They should be small enough to walk through doors, but big enough to scare the **** out of you.

Iuris
20-08-2010, 16:08
So 6 feet plus armor? More won't fit doors :)

Col. Tartleton
20-08-2010, 16:30
The armor adds about four-six inches to their height. The fin on their helmet is a couple inches, their armor is a good inch thick minimum on the boot to give it a tread and be virtually immune to land mines. Then the helmet is probably comparable.

So a good three inches added on top and a good inch or two on the boot. I'd say they're sevenish-seven six plus the five from the armor. So they're 7'6" to 8' in armor. Right about where the people want.

Now lets try to explain his shoulder width... (That's power Armor)
94933

Kage2020
20-08-2010, 16:35
Art is a lie and truth is subjective.

(Equally, Art is truth and lies are subjective. Or, Art is subject and truth is a lie.)

Kage

UselessThing
20-08-2010, 17:44
I like my Marine big. The bigger the better. Incredible Hulk big.

I think the key to producing Marines who have a chance of living up to their reputation is to think of them as Superheros - if fifty Hulks turned up in world war II it would all be over bar the shouting.

And the superhero motif suits Marine fighting styles well - they pretty much wear yellow spandex as it is, and a Marine fight is more likly to resemble superhero media than Band of Brothers.

Son of Sanguinius
20-08-2010, 17:47
Art is a lie and truth is subjective.

(Equally, Art is truth and lies are subjective. Or, Art is subject and truth is a lie.)

Kage

Artists use lies to tell the truth. ;)

Kage2020
20-08-2010, 18:01
And we can rephrase that for equal validity by reversing it. Of course, then we invalidate the entire purpose of the discussion forum. :D

Kage