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woodfin
18-08-2010, 13:56
In a hand to hand fight who would win considering they are both weak when it comes to hand to hand.

Lord Damocles
18-08-2010, 14:03
Yay for pointlessly vague questions!


Who's fighting (Crisis Suit vs. Conscript?)
What are they armed with? (Guardsman with Chainsword ain't so weak)
How many (Regiment on Cadre? One on one?)
What's the greater situation? (Ambush or boxing match?)


Also: Chuck Norris! :rolleyes:

Mannimarco
18-08-2010, 14:05
Basic guardsman vs basic firewarrior: imperial guardsman hands down.

The Tau dont like HTH, the consider it barbaric IIRC so they train in long rang fire fights and falling back when the enemy gets to close, the guard on the other hand have their bayonet drills so would be more comfortable at close range/HTH

Shamana
18-08-2010, 14:07
I believe the Tau are generally considered inferior to humans in a melee. Statwise, didn't they have lower WS and initiative? Their armor is slightly better, but they don't have the numbers of the Guard.

Fluffwise, iirc it is considered quite common for Guard units in the course of battle to fight in melee in the course of trench warfare and the like. Tau doctrine, afaik, relies on giving ground rather than fighting in unfavorable conditions (such as, in most cases, melee). These are the general rules, of course - there are always exceptions.

LordLucan
18-08-2010, 21:56
Depends on many, many factors, including the gravity of a Guard homeworld, their culture and what weapons they are equiped with to fight the tau.

Generally however, naked Tau versus naked Guardsman, the human would probably win I suspect. Yet, since naked mud-wrestling is not a viable tactic in most Imperial Guard regiments, I doubt this issue would crop up often.*





*(Of course, the muddy nudist planet of Jaxxia is exempt... :P)

ForgottenLore
18-08-2010, 22:07
Except the Tau would retreat from the fight, engaging in hit and run attaks with thrown stones and set up an ambush or scrounge for materials and make a rudimentary lathe or something with which to even the score.

So, while they both might have been dropped on the planet of mud naked, by the time the fight is over the Tau would have a basic fire arm and some sort of armor.

LordLucan
18-08-2010, 22:09
Ah, but it is a planet of nothing but mud...

ForgottenLore
18-08-2010, 22:32
Doesn't matter, that will just provide impetus for out entirely mud-based technology.

Col. Tartleton
19-08-2010, 00:04
Except the Tau would retreat from the fight, engaging in hit and run attaks with thrown stones and set up an ambush or scrounge for materials and make a rudimentary lathe or something with which to even the score.

So, while they both might have been dropped on the planet of mud naked, by the time the fight is over the Tau would have a basic fire arm and some sort of armor.

While your basic Ivy League Tau Delta Phi Fire Warrior may be capable of constructing a basic fire arm out of twine and two coconut halves with all the skill of the Proffessor...
94808

in half the time the humble guardsman would have made a trusty blunt object.

94807

flota
19-08-2010, 00:20
didnt the tau have slow reflexes or something like that?
i remember reading about that somewhere

Col. Tartleton
19-08-2010, 00:42
Their eyes are screwed up. Their reflexes are fine. They see into infrared and their eyes don't track things like ours do or something. They have sharper eye sight but poor depth perception or something.

Its a subtle nod to their being Japanese.

94813

94814

Me no rikey gue'la stereotyping! :p

Balgora
19-08-2010, 01:03
gogo aun'shi with his epic 2h staff sword thingy

Abaddon676
09-09-2010, 16:07
guardsman hands down, humans are a bit more physically superior to Tau, considering stats.

Balgora
09-09-2010, 16:25
If we're gonna pull threads outta the abyss I will ask a confusing and and answerless question.

How much of the percieved difference between tau and a guardsman is down to training and other cultural factors and not down to physical disadvantage?

For a good example look at an ethereal who trains with his weapon and so has ws4 I3 and two wounds. Or at aun'shi who I think had weapon skill and intiative at 5 aswell as rending(due to incredible skill and speed) on his str increasing honour blade back in 3rd, along with a butt kicking special close combat rule for annoying people who rely on weight of hits to do damage.

Or at o'shovah who had a special rule that increases every tau in the army upto or above a regular guardsman in close combat explained as the fact that they "train heavily in hand-to-hand combat".

Tau have significantly shorter lifespans than humans in which to train their skills so it's quite impressive that a tau commander in a suit who has been in active duty for as little as 12 'tau' years (approx 300 earth days so a little under 10 years by normal standards) from shas'la to shas'o can be ws 4 without actually focusing on close combat ability ;)

Hunger
09-09-2010, 17:34
*flips coin*

The tau.

Balgora
09-09-2010, 18:39
That's pretty much the best answer possible, thankyou for saving us all some time and nerdy frustration:p

Hunger
09-09-2010, 23:10
That's pretty much the best answer possible, thankyou for saving us all some time and nerdy frustration:p

Well I guess that solved that one. Always happy to help!

*puts coin in pocket*

Polaria
10-09-2010, 05:03
Considering that the Tau managed to drive their whole race into brink of extension before they ever invented modern weaponry or got out of their planet I would assume that physically and psychologically Tau are as well/poorly endowed for HTH as any bipedal animal. Which is to say they aren't half bad, but will get their asses handed over if someone is sporting fangs, claws and other nasty assortments of violence.

Now if we compare Tau Fire Warrior to Imperial Guardsman training and equipment give guardsman a pretty huge advantage. FWs are traditionally not used for HTH and thus they are not extensively trained for it. They have a good armor in most vulnerable parts of body, but its also modeled like a modern shooters-jacket, giving support to aiming at the price of reduced mobility and the helmet they have pretty much reduces their peripheral vision to zero. In addition, their only weapon in HTH is a knife or a pulse weapon used as a crude sort of club or maul. Guardmen are trained and used to regular bayonet charges and have the advantage of longer reach (lasgun-bayonet vs. knife), unhindered peripheral vision and armor that does not hinder their mobility too much in HTH. An experienced guardsman would blindside and bayonet an equally experienced FW in seconds... assuming he would ever get that close alive, that is.

Sorros
11-09-2010, 04:45
After watching tau firewarriors get charged by a squad of orks the other day and winning and taking like one casualty, im going with Tau for the hell of it.

In a serious situation, probably the guardsman. Tau hate CC, excluding that one commander that apparently went rogue...

Merus
11-09-2010, 04:58
In the Last Chancers omnibus, the Tau comment on how "terrifying" a Guardsman is in melee.. They believe them to be incredibly skilled melee combatants.

A Guardsman would win, without question.

Lord Zarkov
11-09-2010, 20:23
In the Last Chancers omnibus, the Tau comment on how "terrifying" a Guardsman is in melee.. They believe them to be incredibly skilled melee combatants.

A Guardsman would win, without question.

Guardsmen are incrediablly skilled melee combatants (from the point of view of most humans), especially the higher ups. It's just that most of the aliens they fight are biologically pre-dispositioned to be even better.

nagash66
11-09-2010, 21:17
Guardsmen are incrediablly skilled melee combatants (from the point of view of most humans), especially the higher ups. It's just that most of the aliens they fight are biologically pre-dispositioned to be even better.


Think on what a Tau must think when he sees BA or World Eaters get at it :eek:

Col. Tartleton
12-09-2010, 00:19
Basically the average Imperial Guardsman is as well trained as any modern army. Some are raised like Spartans from childhood (Cadians and Ultramar for example) others are manufactured for war (Krieg) and others are hardened by their very homeworld into a killing machine (Catachan etc.) That WS 3 guardsman would hold his own against anyone shy of a black belt in a fist fight. The Tau on the other hand would view that as crude and barbaric.

Its like who would win in a fight: A Fencer or a Gunslinger. Its not exactly a match up. The guardsman lives in a culture that views close combat as virtuous and strives to master it. The Tau just wants to leave your head backless and move on to the next town.

Joewrightgm
12-09-2010, 01:58
Well, the thing is Tau are less skilled in close combat because their culture sees it as unrefined and their training methods don't focus on it. Also, because of their fast evolution, they are comparatively 'flimsy' (IE, feet, ankles) compared to a human. Source: Xenology.

Humans generally focus more on a balanced approach, training for long range fire and preferring it, but acknowledging that sometimes you have to give it to someone Marquis of Queens-bury style.

So from the point of view of an average Fire Warrior, they must perceive a standard Imperial Guardsmen to be fast and dexterous in close combat, and that perception is a weapon in its own right.

So I would say, any given IG trooper to a simple Fire Warrior, a bayonet with some guts behind it will get the job done.

Ivellis
12-09-2010, 05:17
However considering Orks are one of the Tau Empire's common opponents I can't really see them thinking of guardsmen as so terrifying in close combat.

Although, defeating my own argument, I'd still be afraid to fight a black belt, even though a gorilla is infinitely more terrifying, but I don't fight gorillas everyday.

I think if Tau practiced close combat purposefully it would only take several generations for them to be more than a match for humans, that's just how they are.

Mannimarco
12-09-2010, 14:11
See the firewarriors of the Farsight enclave

Aliarzathanil
14-09-2010, 09:09
Tau have a slot in the middle of their forehead that affords easy access to their brain. I think it's fair to say that is a considerable disadvantage.


P.S.

If that's not what that is... well, then you tell me what that is. It's weird. Is it a nostril?

Leogun_91
14-09-2010, 20:15
The guardsman is a very skilled melee combatant with both training and personal experience.

The Tau would get a kroot to fight the melee for him.

Tau victory.

Lionsprey
15-09-2010, 08:56
Tau have a slot in the middle of their forehead that affords easy access to their brain. I think it's fair to say that is a considerable disadvantage.


P.S.

If that's not what that is... well, then you tell me what that is. It's weird. Is it a nostril?

If i remember correctly, Its basicly their nose

Aliarzathanil
15-09-2010, 16:36
Leogun, that theory holds up until the Ogryn wades in.

Astelan
15-09-2010, 17:04
I think people take the mistaken view of the guard as "basic weak human cannon fodder" because BL books and such often have them going up against CSM, Aspect Warriors, Orks and the like. I think that to even stand a chance on a 40k battlefield as an un-augmented human the guardsman would have to be at least as physically fit and skilled in hand to hand combat as your average UNSC marine, probably more so considering what a big part melee combat plays in 40k.

so who would win? the guardsman hands down.

my mental image is of the two squaring off, weaponless, the tau suddenly starts waving his spindly little arms around (either a sign of surrender, or because he thinks the guardsman wont kill him if he has tourettes) and the guardsman bull rushes him, pummels him to the ground, and garrotes him with a piece of razor wire.

IMHO the tau exist solely because the Imperium either finds them amusing, has a soft spot for anime, or simply has bigger itches to scratch. :D

Mike3791
15-09-2010, 18:41
Leogun, that theory holds up until the Ogryn wades in.

no, kroot would still beat ogryn... Smithers, release the hounds!

ForgottenLore
15-09-2010, 21:18
...and the (tau) helmet they have pretty much reduces their peripheral vision to zero.

You don't know that. I always pretty much assumed that the Tau helmet has an advanced sensor system and heads up display that basically allows them to operate as if they had no helmet on while not leaving any vulnerable areas. Along with real-time battlefield updates, IFF systems, motion trackers and short range radar, etc...

As for the question at hand, the guard would probably win, but they Tau would never allow the situation to arise. If a Fire Warrior had to face a guardsman in such a fight it would be a failure on the part of the Tau military for not seeing to it he was properly supplied or evacuated. (perhaps not a big failure though)

Leogun_91
15-09-2010, 21:34
Leogun, that theory holds up until the Ogryn wades in.The kroot used the elementof suprise (they are quite good at that), the guardsman thought it was a formal fist-fight contest between him and the tau, he gets very suprised when the Kroot jumps out and doesn't get the time to call the ogryn.

madprophet
15-09-2010, 21:55
the human 3 out of 5 falls. The guardsman has an edge but it's far from a slam dunk.

Tarian
15-09-2010, 22:01
Unless its a Krieg, they're WS4 :D

Aliarzathanil
16-09-2010, 07:32
The guardsmen has to be careful; Tau kick like mules, literally.

Commissar-General Polley
19-09-2010, 21:59
We are forgeting the vast ingenuity of a human, were as a Tau does not sully himself in close combat, if a 'barbaric' human was to charge him they would react in self defence. However this is when the noble guardsmen then proceeds to knee the Tau in whatever private area it has or in the case of the nudist mud planet *throw mud in his eyes* that have already poor depth perception and the proceed to brain the Tau out bt smacking his head on the ground or a hard surface repeatedly!

So my decision is the guardsmen!

Balgora
20-09-2010, 01:47
there are no hard surfaces on the mud planet:D

Retribution
22-09-2010, 20:46
IMHO the tau exist solely because the Imperium either finds them amusing, has a soft spot for anime, or simply has bigger itches to scratch. :D
Ignoring the fact that full-on Imperial Crusades have been held-off or soundly defeated by the Tau

MEcorp
22-09-2010, 21:25
Pretty sure Damocles (sp?) was called off, not because the Tau were such fearsome opponents but rather cause it was Abaddons time of the month again and they couldn't be bothered.

OT A guardsmen in 40k is vastly superior to a modern soldier, especially in HTH. Ws, S and I 3 are all good stats, trailing only slightly behind the enhanced and armoured Space marines. Not to mention that many of them come from cultures whose sole purpose appears to be the widespread creation of badasses (Cadia, Krieg, Catachan, etc.).

Superior biology, training and equipement give the Guardsmen the edge in HTH. And failing that, they always have numbers.

And anyone saying 'the Tau would never let it get that far' is only kidding themselves. Guard numbers will allow many of them to reach the Tau lines, not even considering ambushes, outflanking maneuvers, etc.

mrln68
22-09-2010, 21:33
I wouldn't call the basic Guardsman a black belt. I wouldn't even compare them to the Marines. In large part they are more like drafted members of the army back in Vietnam. Training basic enough to keep them from killing themselves right off the bat...but not much more than that.

Since most the fluff in this regards are counter pointed by piece of fluff that contradicts it - it is a wash. On the table you have normal humans being a WS3 (Inquisitor Retinue Sages...fear the accountant). Those with more advanced hand to hand training (Commissars) or more experience (officers) are WS4 - those are your black belts. The WS5 flukes are your Chuck Norris/Bruce Lee types. That said, their WS3 does beat a WS2 from the Tau, physical strength and endurance are both about the same though. The Guardsman would be a little faster though.

But, that isn't the whole story. Are they naked? If not - the guardsman punching into carapace armor is likely to break their knuckles, while an armored fist from the Tau will likely break some bones. Do they have any weapons? Knives would go a long way to even the score for the guardsman when attacking an armored opponent.

So - if you were to assume the Tau is in his normal gear and the Guardsman is in his normal gear...each one with a basic close combat weapon the Guardsman would score a wound 16% of the time and the Tau would score a wound 14% of the time. If they were both naked - the Guardsman would score a wound 25% of the time and the Tau would score a wound 17% of the time. If they both had armor but no weapons...the guardsman would have two broken fists and the a smashed in face and the Tau would have a bit of a headache from the guardsman trying to get the helmet off before... ;)

Mannimarco
22-09-2010, 21:39
Name 1

The first colonisation fleet sent to eliminate the Tau was lost in the warp or some such.

The damocles crusade was called off because it was going nowhere fast and the nids were approaching so those forces were needed to combat that.

But yeah the imperium has yet to develop a weapon capable of penetrating the kind of plot armour the Tau have.

Retribution
22-09-2010, 22:19
Pretty sure Damocles (sp?) was called off, not because the Tau were such fearsome opponents but rather cause it was Abaddons time of the month again and they couldn't be bothered.

It's true that Damocles was "called off" to deal with the larger threat of a tyranid fleet, but up until that point the crusade itself had ground to a stalemate at Dal'yth; destroying outlying colonies is one thing, but messing with a full fledge Sept-world is out of the imperiums ability given the amount of threats they face at all times

Balgora
22-09-2010, 23:40
why will nobody think about how awesome an ethereal who is actually trained and uses close combat weapons compares to a guard officer :(

Felwether
23-09-2010, 07:52
why will nobody think about how awesome an ethereal who is actually trained and uses close combat weapons compares to a guard officer :(

Er... so Aun'shi? Compare him to Straken...

Stonerhino
24-09-2010, 06:39
Er... so Aun'shi? Compare him to Straken...The man took a land shark in melee. What do you expect.

stazba
25-09-2010, 03:37
I wouldn't call the basic Guardsman a black belt. I wouldn't even compare them to the Marines. In large part they are more like drafted members of the army back in Vietnam. Training basic enough to keep them from killing themselves right off the bat...but not much more than that.


I have to disagree there. What you are describing is more like a PDF force or guard conscripts (hell, conscripts probably are even worse off then Vietnam draftees).

A fully trained and especially a veteran guardsman is going to be one bad **** in hand to hand against any physically similar opponent (against an aspect warrior, marine, nid, ect they can't begin to compete w/o help). IMO the best way to think of guardsman fighting is to imagine WW1 trench warfare h2h. People who lived a while in the trenches learned pretty fast how to settle another man's hash in brutally efficient manners. They weren't blackbelts, they were just really good at killing.



If they both had armor but no weapons...the guardsman would have two broken fists and the a smashed in face and the Tau would have a bit of a headache from the guardsman trying to get the helmet off before... ;)

Who says if he was armored that he would use his fist even if he doesn't have a gun or knife? Only the rawest recruit would consider fists flailing to be a good idea. In a pinch, helmets work quite well for bashing someone you don't like (to forestall a counter argument, yes your helmet will not penetrate the armor, but it will stun him or even knock him down if you get in a good lick).


edit: Wow. I didn't know you couldn't write M O F O (what I wrote and got *s instead).

mrln68
25-09-2010, 05:14
I have to disagree there. What you are describing is more like a PDF force or guard conscripts (hell, conscripts probably are even worse off then Vietnam draftees).

A fully trained and especially a veteran guardsman is going to be one bad **** in hand to hand against any physically similar opponent (against an aspect warrior, marine, nid, ect they can't begin to compete w/o help). IMO the best way to think of guardsman fighting is to imagine WW1 trench warfare h2h. People who lived a while in the trenches learned pretty fast how to settle another man's hash in brutally efficient manners. They weren't blackbelts, they were just really good at killing.

Again - you are looking at the fresh meat, not veterans. And again - a scribe has a 3 WS...not someone that excels at martial skills. There seems to be a somewhat romantic view of what the Guard are, I guess based off from BL fluff. However it is important to remember that stories are not written about the average soldier, but the exceptional ones. The average soldier has very little training:

"In any case, during the long voyage between their homewolrd and the regiment's destination, the newly inducted Guardsmen will receive intensive training that tempers the natural fighting skills of their many disparate cultures and forges them into soldiers worth of the Imperial Guard" (pg 10 5th Ed IG Codex)

If they are close to a warzone, they might barely be taught how to clean their las-guns. Longer trips allow more training with specific equipment as well as things so important as the Imperial Cult. The rest of the section states that they drill for weeks, not much different than current basic training (with a little bit of follow on training for those who show an aptitude).

I also have never understood the assumption that the PDF are lesser than the guard. I have never seen anything that states that the 10% tithe sent to the IG had to be the top 10%. Considering the purpose of the Guard compared to the purpose of the PDF it would make more sense (both for local and galactic governments) to take the bottom 10%. I know some cultures deem IG service to be an honor and they do send their best, there is no indication that this is the rule.

As far as Trench Warfare goes...the question to be answered first would be how long does it take to become a "veteran". Generally, troops in the field adapt fairly quickly. However, they generally adapted by seeing others fail to adapt or by actual combat themselves. An IG vet squad may have only been in the field for a month or so...and by that point, the ones who remain are the survivors from a company that have been condensed down.

Conscripts are even worse - for various reasons. Youth, shackles or just a desire not to live anymore.


Who says if he was armored that he would use his fist even if he doesn't have a gun or knife? Only the rawest recruit would consider fists flailing to be a good idea. In a pinch, helmets work quite well for bashing someone you don't like (to forestall a counter argument, yes your helmet will not penetrate the armor, but it will stun him or even knock him down if you get in a good lick).


edit: Wow. I didn't know you couldn't write M O F O (what I wrote and got *s instead).

Nothing - though it is one of those perfectly spherical universe things. Given the vagueness of the original question, you have to make assumptions - or choose to make no assumptions at all.

Granted - looking at the two armor sets...if the Guardsman was to remove his helmet...and I were a Tau...I would likely proceed to headbutt the human repeatedly. Likely keeping my head protected and his...not so much.

KA-BAR
07-10-2010, 04:38
i think it would be great to pit two of the galaxies best jungle fighters in HTH.

Kroot vs. Catachan JF's


discuss.

Aliarzathanil
07-10-2010, 16:57
One could compare the two based on the information presented in Deathwatch for a more detailed look...

nagash66
07-10-2010, 17:06
Ignoring the fact that full-on Imperial Crusades have been held-off or soundly defeated by the Tau

No full on crusade has been mounted yet. The last one was a half hearted attempt that had to bugger off because of the nid invasion.

Polaria
08-10-2010, 06:39
I wouldn't call the basic Guardsman a black belt. I wouldn't even compare them to the Marines. In large part they are more like drafted members of the army back in Vietnam. Training basic enough to keep them from killing themselves right off the bat...but not much more than that.

What you just described is the Whiteshields, called "conscript" in the Codex: Imperial Guard and has WS 2 and BS 2.

The "normal" Imperial Guard infantry are the best regiments of the PDF and have WS 3 and BS 3. They are likely to have training equal to any professional army of the modern day Earth.



On the table you have normal humans being a WS3 (Inquisitor Retinue Sages...fear the accountant).

Inquisitorial Adepts are hardly "normal humans". They are selected and trained to operate in very dangerous investigations and should be compared to FBI agents or similar elite law-enforcement professionals. Surely an FBI agent has to have a four-years bachelors degree just to apply but on gradution he or she also has 21 weeks in Quantico training. Goes a long way in explaining the WS 3 when WS 2 is normal human.



But, that isn't the whole story. Are they naked? If not - the guardsman punching into carapace armor is likely to break their knuckles, while an armored fist from the Tau will likely break some bones. Do they have any weapons? Knives would go a long way to even the score for the guardsman when attacking an armored opponent.

Considering that normal guardsman has lasgun (makes a very good club) and a bayonet (combined with lasgun makes a nice spear) any guardsman who uses bare fists against armored Tau Firewarrior is probably a raw conscript with WS 2 and not enough training or understanding to use the forementioned weapons. Tau, on the other hand, have knives. You don't need to punch people with fist (armored or not) if you have a knife. Of course if the Tau don't understand that it goes a long way in explaining their WS 2.

Aliarzathanil
08-10-2010, 07:04
Only the squad leader carries a "ceremonial" knife. Guardsmen typically have bayonets and/or combat knives and pistols. The IG squad leader my have any number of nasty implements.

Redscare
08-10-2010, 07:41
This really depends on the question of the regiment. A Valhallan infantry regiment may very well be an under-equipped, ill-trained, drafted bunch of young, but stubborn to the last drop of blood, rabble.

On the other hand, you have the Cadians, who are literally trained from birth to be soldiers. Or the Catachans, whose day by day survival probably rivals that of the most dangerous missions modern soldiers may undertake. Not even the Navy SEALs or SAS can come close to a basic Cadian or Catachan trooper, if you look at things from a purely fluff perspective.

You can't generalize "Imperial Guard infantry" into one category when it comes to combat prowess.

Aliarzathanil
08-10-2010, 10:36
You can, however, make the generalization that they carry something sharp...

massey
08-10-2010, 13:16
What you just described is the Whiteshields, called "conscript" in the Codex: Imperial Guard and has WS 2 and BS 2.

Whiteshields are high school kids.


The "normal" Imperial Guard infantry are the best regiments of the PDF and have WS 3 and BS 3. They are likely to have training equal to any professional army of the modern day Earth.

Yes and no. They probably have training equivalent to that of the average army on relatively-modern day Earth (probably from WWI to present). You're not going to convince me that the average guardsman has training equal to the best armies on the planet. That's a bad definition of average. The best regiments probably have that level of training, but it's not the average.



Inquisitorial Adepts are hardly "normal humans". They are selected and trained to operate in very dangerous investigations and should be compared to FBI agents or similar elite law-enforcement professionals. Surely an FBI agent has to have a four-years bachelors degree just to apply but on gradution he or she also has 21 weeks in Quantico training. Goes a long way in explaining the WS 3 when WS 2 is normal human.

A buddy of mine is an FBI agent. He's a smart guy. What I wouldn't call him is an expert in hand to hand. Yeah, he took some hand to hand classes for a few weeks, and had to become proficient with a pistol, but he's not exactly a badass. Most of his FBI training revolved around non-combat skills.


This really depends on the question of the regiment. A Valhallan infantry regiment may very well be an under-equipped, ill-trained, drafted bunch of young, but stubborn to the last drop of blood, rabble.

On the other hand, you have the Cadians, who are literally trained from birth to be soldiers. Or the Catachans, whose day by day survival probably rivals that of the most dangerous missions modern soldiers may undertake. Not even the Navy SEALs or SAS can come close to a basic Cadian or Catachan trooper, if you look at things from a purely fluff perspective.

I disagree. There's really no reason to train your average grunt to that level. After all, they don't undertake those sorts of missions. Why are you wasting money teaching a Cadian file clerk how to disable security systems and infiltrate an enemy compound? He needs to be good at doing his job, not someone else's.

The US spends more money on training than anybody else in the world. They have elaborate, week-long "training exercises" involving thousands of people, with ships and planes and tanks. You know what they don't spend money on? More rifle training. More hand to hand training. The US doesn't have the most powerful military because our guys can shoot better than anyone else. It comes from communication, maneuver, everyone following orders and doing what they're supposed to do when they're supposed to do it. I would think Cadians would be very well disciplined, which would make them more effective.

In general, the Imperium doesn't give a $#^& about an individual guardsman. They don't train them to Navy SEAL level. They give them a lasgun and tell them to march. But that's good enough. It really doesn't take that much time to become a pretty good shot, and it doesn't take that much time to learn how to brain somebody with the butt of your rifle. Some regiments have specialties, sure. I'd trust Catachans to know what kind of plants won't eat you, or how to stay hidden when a Frexian Mind Beast is crawling through the trees overhead. None of our soldiers today know how to do that. And that's why Catachans are highly valued, because you can send them to jungle deathworlds and they don't get themselves killed immediately.

--

All in all, Tau are just not good fighters. The average Fire Warrior is equivalent, hand to hand wise, as a dude off the street. You take him out of his armor, and Bob from Accounting can kick his ass. Humans with actual real training will be much better than the Tau. It's just not their strong suit. It's like asking a human to fight an Eldar -- they're just too fast. Your average guy is gonna lose.

Godswildcard
08-10-2010, 13:33
Ok, so one thing that I've been wondering at since the Tau wish-listing thread started is whether or not Tau really do see H2H as 'no bueno'....

Consider these facts, taken from the Tau Empire Codex:
Commander Puretide gave many teachings on war
O'Shava and Shadowsun were both pupils of Puretide
O'Shava and Shadowsun both concentrate on Different aspects of Puretides teaching
O'Shava likes him some CC (based on his 'teachings', and the use of the dawn blade)
Thus, Puretide must have had SOME teachings on CC, either seeing it as a necessary evil, or just one part of warfare as a whole...

-NOW-

Also consider that the Ethereal Honor Guard sport CC weapons
and the Ethereals themselves are armed with some form of CC weapon and...
that in the first codex, Aun'Shi's honor blade werent so bad
It also states in the codex that the Ethereals are so good with their weapons that they become unseeable blurs.

Ok. All that stated, I don't understand what all of this 'Tau in CC Sux' sentiment is coming from. From the looks of things, it just seems that while most Fire Warriors don't follow the right teachings of puretide and thus don't prictice CC per say, they are more than capable of excelling at it if they try hard. And lets not forget that the Fire Cast are carefully bred and genetically enhanced for war.

My point is, if you take out all of the incorrect notions (according the 'real' fluff found in the codex and NOT in some book glorifying the IG) than they are more than capable in H2H if they choose to be. Its just kind of sad that GW limits them in such a way by not giving them the options to reflect this.

ok. Rant done.

Balgora
08-10-2010, 18:55
The US spends more money on training than anybody else in the world.

I would like to make the distinction between cost and quality, both in terms of current US military opinion of itself and in relation to this thread.

Also, nearly everybody believes his country has the best army, as an Englishman with close ties to the army the phrase "we have the best trained soldiers in the world" is something that's thrown around quite a lot when national pride comes into play.
Again in relation to real world things as well as every imperial guard player and tau player in this thread saying "mine are better than yours in a fight" (I'm one of them :P)

massey
09-10-2010, 03:58
I would like to make the distinction between cost and quality, both in terms of current US military opinion of itself and in relation to this thread.

Also, nearly everybody believes his country has the best army, as an Englishman with close ties to the army the phrase "we have the best trained soldiers in the world" is something that's thrown around quite a lot when national pride comes into play.
Again in relation to real world things as well as every imperial guard player and tau player in this thread saying "mine are better than yours in a fight" (I'm one of them :P)

The point I made is half a mile over there. You missed it. Here it is again. You know what the world's most powerful military doesn't spend money on? You know what your military doesn't spend money on? Trying to turn its soldiers into MMA fighters. There's no need. It's a waste. No one does it. The Imperium wouldn't do it either, because it's stupid. Well-trained soldiers means that your guys follow orders, can read a topography map, keep their weapons clean, and know how to not get in the way of artillery fire. It does not mean that every guy can do a ninja kick.

WS 3 is not some major accomplishment for a human. It's a soldier who has been through basic training, is in good shape, and knows how to use his combat knife or his rifle butt. It does not mean he is a ninja, or a special forces guy. It is an average human soldier. To the Tau, WS 3 is a hand to hand badass.

Balgora
09-10-2010, 06:48
That's the part I agreed with because it was a well made point that I didn't think needed anymore said :), sorry if i came off as condescending on the bit that I wanted to criticise.

Having a second go at it.

People do not need specifically military training to be highly trained at something, if you want them to be the best you hammer that mentality into them through tradition and culture.
You can have soldiers that are already hand to hand buttkickers because their society is very warlike and the most popular sports are all based around different ways of fighting/shooting, so that when you actually have free time most of your soldiers want to relax simply by fighting each other like they've been doing all their lives.

Not saying that's the norm, just that a large chunk of Imperial worlds are quite warlike and/or not mentioned as being either way, and the Imperium being known for spreading fanaticism and discipline and wanting to pinch those pennies when possible. Some of them go so far as to say that people spend their whole lives being soldiers before they actually become them.

The other alternative is you get people who go a bit Tau and want to make everybody better "for the greater good", who take training up a notch or two.

Polaria
09-10-2010, 07:13
The point I made is half a mile over there. You missed it. Here it is again. You know what the world's most powerful military doesn't spend money on? You know what your military doesn't spend money on? Trying to turn its soldiers into MMA fighters. There's no need. It's a waste. No one does it. The Imperium wouldn't do it either, because it's stupid. Well-trained soldiers means that your guys follow orders, can read a topography map, keep their weapons clean, and know how to not get in the way of artillery fire. It does not mean that every guy can do a ninja kick.

WS 3 is not some major accomplishment for a human. It's a soldier who has been through basic training, is in good shape, and knows how to use his combat knife or his rifle butt. It does not mean he is a ninja, or a special forces guy. It is an average human soldier. To the Tau, WS 3 is a hand to hand badass.

Basically this is correct. Coming into gunfight armed with ninja-kick is a sure-fire way to get killed. Actually even special forces didn't do much of close-combat training until very resently. To quote a Vietnam vet green beret "I think we got about half an hour instruction on use of knife. A guy told is in classroom where to stab people and that was it. We didn't practice it and the subject was never mentioned again."

Recently several militaries have started training their soldiers (even basic infatry grunts) in hand to hand techniques and using quite some time in it. The reason is that they need a controllable way to subdue people without killing them. You can't interrogate a terrorist once you've put two through his head you know...

Anyway, even the famous ninja were unlikely to be close-combat masters. They were trained to assassinate samurai after all. Samurai were people who had been trained in all forms of close-up fighting and weapons for all their life (because spear, sword and bow were how they fought), were from high-class, well-fed families (thus bigger and stronger) and regularly carried weapons even inside their homes.

Ninja were from low-class eta families and likely smaller, weaker, less well-fed and more likely to suffer from physical disabilities. What they had was night, surprise and poisons. Any ninja worth anything would know that going toe-to-toe with samurai is the least effective way to kill him.

Also, ninja didn't really need close-combat skills for police either. The shogunate era police were specifically trained and equipped to put down an armed samurai if need be, using such things as chain-weapons, mancathers and other such special stuff in team. Going against a shogunate era police-team a ninja would have the chances of snowball in hell.

massey
09-10-2010, 12:17
That's the part I agreed with because it was a well made point that I didn't think needed anymore said :), sorry if i came off as condescending on the bit that I wanted to criticise.

That's okay. No part of my post was supposed to be taken as nationalistic chest-thumping. Basically though, when you're talking about modern militaries, there's a really big one that's easy to compare to that everyone has heard of. Fact is, most western militaries copy each other, using similar weapons, training methods, tactics, etc.


Having a second go at it.

People do not need specifically military training to be highly trained at something, if you want them to be the best you hammer that mentality into them through tradition and culture.
You can have soldiers that are already hand to hand buttkickers because their society is very warlike and the most popular sports are all based around different ways of fighting/shooting, so that when you actually have free time most of your soldiers want to relax simply by fighting each other like they've been doing all their lives.

Not saying that's the norm, just that a large chunk of Imperial worlds are quite warlike and/or not mentioned as being either way, and the Imperium being known for spreading fanaticism and discipline and wanting to pinch those pennies when possible. Some of them go so far as to say that people spend their whole lives being soldiers before they actually become them.

The other alternative is you get people who go a bit Tau and want to make everybody better "for the greater good", who take training up a notch or two.

During the Civil War in the United States, the southern states had a big advantage, initially, because the South was more rural. All good southern boys knew how to use a gun, because they went hunting. The North had a lot of city boys who worked in factories, and had never shot a rifle. So I agree with you, some worlds are going to have a longer history of martial tradition.

Still, the problem the Tau have is that their reflexes just aren't as good as a human, in the same way that a human isn't as quick as an Eldar. It's not just a cultural difference. It's physiological. Sure, Tau could probably train to be better in hand to hand than they are, just like everybody in the Death Korps of Krieg has WS 4. They just won't be as good as humans who have a similar level of training. Tau seem to understand this, and don't waste resources training themselves at something they'll never be very good at.

Retribution
09-10-2010, 15:21
The point I made is half a mile over there. You missed it. Here it is again. You know what the world's most powerful military doesn't spend money on? You know what your military doesn't spend money on? Trying to turn its soldiers into MMA fighters. There's no need. It's a waste. No one does it. The Imperium wouldn't do it either, because it's stupid. Well-trained soldiers means that your guys follow orders, can read a topography map, keep their weapons clean, and know how to not get in the way of artillery fire. It does not mean that every guy can do a ninja kick.

WS 3 is not some major accomplishment for a human. It's a soldier who has been through basic training, is in good shape, and knows how to use his combat knife or his rifle butt. It does not mean he is a ninja, or a special forces guy. It is an average human soldier. To the Tau, WS 3 is a hand to hand badass.
The problem is that 40k isn't equivalent to modern combat, it's more akin to medieval brawls with a few guns here and there given that most everything comes down to assaulting afaik

Balgora
09-10-2010, 15:37
Still, the problem the Tau have is that their reflexes just aren't as good as a human, in the same way that a human isn't as quick as an Eldar. It's not just a cultural difference. It's physiological. Sure, Tau could probably train to be better in hand to hand than they are, just like everybody in the Death Korps of Krieg has WS 4. They just won't be as good as humans who have a similar level of training. Tau seem to understand this, and don't waste resources training themselves at something they'll never be very good at.

I didn't actually mean tau, i just meant the tau mentality of going out of your way to make everybody else better for the greater good and not because you're paid to do it. It probably wasn't very clear, got a cold which isn't helping.

Anyway, i've mentioned a couple times already that I put ethereals as what tau can be in hand to hand when they want to.

massey
09-10-2010, 21:40
Anyway, i've mentioned a couple times already that I put ethereals as what tau can be in hand to hand when they want to.

WS 4, Init 3 and 2 W impresses you? ;)

Mudkip
09-10-2010, 22:37
Regarding Inquisitorial retinues, scribes and the like probably have WS3 simply because it would be a burdensome hassle to give the different members of the retinue different weapon skill attributes. Similarly the 10 grade system of stats is a rules simplification, surely the average IG platoon officer is not equivalent to a space marine in melee skill. The rules only represent the fluff in an overgeneralized way.

Melee is more prevalent in 40k than in real life, with some IG forces such as the Krieg having as much success with bayonet charges as with lasfire volleys. I doubt they they'd train soldiers in martial arts either, because it's no good knowing how to flip a man over if your alien adversary has a completely different physiology to a human. Guard melee training would have to take into account that they can't know for sure what they are going up against. We can assume that IG melee training probably involves sticking the enemy with a sharp object.

If you say the situation is that one Tau and one Guadsmen go mano-a-mano with a knife each then maybe the guardsmen wins 3/5 times. But that's not what "close combat" means in 40k.

Close combat in 40k is not a test of individual competence at literally melee fighting so much as the representation of close quarters fighting generally. That might include short range shooting and the use of grenades (hence the CC benefits for having pistols and grenades), in which case the average guardsmen probably does not possess any substantial advantage over the average Tau Fire Warrior, who is well armoured, trained and equippped.

The Imperial Guard wins battles through numbers not individual competence. Guardsmen aren't really good at melee so much as stubborn at it. Guardsmen are expected to stand their ground and fight to the last man unless told to do otherwise. If the IG is better at close combat than the Tau, it's probably because they are willing to send an entire platoon of men charging into a building to clear out one Fire Warrior team, even if they lose more soldiers than the Tau in the exchange, because they can afford to do that and have the mentality for it. The Tau wouldn't do that sort of thing so it's not a tool in their arsenal, hence they don't "do" close combat unless it's forced upon them. But Tau do have access to carbines and grenades for short range fighting as well as better armour, so fluff-wise they probably aren't individually much worse at it than guardsmen.

The Orange
10-10-2010, 00:16
O'Shava likes him some CC (based on his 'teachings', and the use of the dawn blade)
Thus, Puretide must have had SOME teachings on CC, either seeing it as a necessary evil, or just one part of warfare as a whole...
Actually I would have taken it that Farsight preferred ambush style tactics as his routing of the Orks in some canyons with a much reduced force was one of his big accomplishments. I'm not entirely sure about that but Farsight had the gift of being able to predict his enemies movements (thus Far-sight). The man does love himself some CC though doesn't he.


My point is, if you take out all of the incorrect notions (according the 'real' fluff found in the codex and NOT in some book glorifying the IG) than they are more than capable in H2H

I think that's about right. Physically both races would be on par with each other but Guardmen have a better WS because they train more heavily for close combat while Tau don't. Their differences stem from training doctrine and little else. As can be seen with Tau Aun (who regularly train in hth) as well as Tau combat veterans and the Farsight enclave close combat proficiency is not something difficult for them to achieve.

massey
10-10-2010, 10:21
Considering that the Farsight enclave guys are still WS 2, I'd say it is something difficult to achieve.

Tastyfish
10-10-2010, 18:34
Ok, so one thing that I've been wondering at since the Tau wish-listing thread started is whether or not Tau really do see H2H as 'no bueno'....

Consider these facts, taken from the Tau Empire Codex:
Commander Puretide gave many teachings on war
O'Shava and Shadowsun were both pupils of Puretide
O'Shava and Shadowsun both concentrate on Different aspects of Puretides teaching
O'Shava likes him some CC (based on his 'teachings', and the use of the dawn blade)
Thus, Puretide must have had SOME teachings on CC, either seeing it as a necessary evil, or just one part of warfare as a whole...

Shorten your reach, is the Puretide teaching that Farsight follows. Never get caught off guard relying on your big guns and combined arms to take someone down. The close combat aspect came much later (and even then is more desperate, its barely better than the orcs are themselves at killing Tau). From the limited pictures we've seen - the Fire caste tribes hunted with spears and spear casters and were using black powder against the Earth fortifications.




Also consider that the Ethereal Honor Guard sport CC weapons
Honour guard are just firewarriors with better aim.


the Ethereals themselves are armed with some form of CC weapon and...
that in the first codex, Aun'Shi's honor blade werent so bad
It also states in the codex that the Ethereals are so good with their weapons that they become unseeable blurs.
No fluff backing, but I like to think the honour blade stems from the idea that when a Tau is in perfect harmony with the Tau'va, then thought and action become one. So if a debate appears at a deadlock between the Aun, then a duel of honour blades is called for, with the Tau who most at peace with himself and the greater good being able to perform the greatest display and defeat his opponent who is having to think about his moves.

Aun'shi is an Ethereal of the ruling caste, but does not see himself as a king or priest but as one who's function is to guide the other castes in following the Tau'va, a vital cog in the machine but a cog none the less and no more vital than the smaller ones that allow him to exert influence (and a replaceable cog at that). Concidentally, this Aun who is most at peace with himself is also the most capable with the honour blades.

The Orange
10-10-2010, 19:43
Considering that the Farsight enclave guys are still WS 2, I'd say it is something difficult to achieve.

They train heavily to fight off orks, which used to mean a 3+ in cc iirc but is now a re-roll to hit, which should be better if I remember my calculations right. And in the previous codex (before there was a preferred enemy rule iirc) is used to simply be a +1 to WS (maybe I too). While simply thematic (because I still wouldn't want to throw my Tau into a hth) the Farsight enclave does show that Tau are capable of fighting in hth well. Just because GW has chosen to change the rules to reflect this over the years doesn't change that fact.


Honour guard are just firewarriors with better aim.
He may have been referring to Aun'Va's Honour Guard.

Godswildcard
10-10-2010, 21:26
Yes, I was referring to Aun'Va's Honor Guard. In that line, I highly DOUBT those are the only two guys in the Empire trained in HTH.

Also, The fact that an Aun must be at peace with himself to wield an honor blade with such skill and precision has nothing to do with the fact that he has still practiced and trained with the weapon to the point of being that proficient at it.

And lastly, I don't think that being better at orcs in CC (as per Tastyfish) is really something to be sneezed at....

massey
11-10-2010, 03:48
Yes, I was referring to Aun'Va's Honor Guard. In that line, I highly DOUBT those are the only two guys in the Empire trained in HTH.

Also, The fact that an Aun must be at peace with himself to wield an honor blade with such skill and precision has nothing to do with the fact that he has still practiced and trained with the weapon to the point of being that proficient at it.

And lastly, I don't think that being better at orcs in CC (as per Tastyfish) is really something to be sneezed at....

They are still WS 4. They are the best HTH fighters the Tau have, special characters in fact, and they're WS 4. Not that it's terrible, but it shows the limits of how good the Tau can be. Meanwhile there are guys in the IG codex with WS 5. Saint Celestine has WS 5 and Init 5.

Allen
11-10-2010, 12:44
Melee is more prevalent in 40k than in real life, with some IG forces such as the Krieg having as much success with bayonet charges as with lasfire volleys. I doubt they they'd train soldiers in martial arts either, because it's no good knowing how to flip a man over if your alien adversary has a completely different physiology to a human

According to official fluff (IG Uplifting Primer, BL novels, IG Codex) the Guard is well trained in many aspect of warfare...including hand-to-hand. In the Gaunt's Ghosts novels, for example, Gaunt note the differences between the combat knife stance and attacks in his previous regiment and in his current one. Also, according to official fluff, the most common enemy of an Imperial Guardsman is a "standard" human soldier/insurgent.



Guard melee training would have to take into account that they can't know for sure what they are going up against. We can assume that IG melee training probably involves sticking the enemy with a sharp object

BL novels seems to suggest that IG instructors tried to go beyond the basic "stick it with this pointy thing" :D
It seems that different regiments have different levels of training and, again according to BL novels, further specialist training is always avalaible to IG soldier if the need arise.



If you say the situation is that one Tau and one Guadsmen go mano-a-mano with a knife each then maybe the guardsmen wins 3/5 times. But that's not what "close combat" means in 40k

Official fluff notes that Tau soldiers are easy prey in hand to hand combat even for "green" imperial recruits. Probably there are many exceptions, but the norm seems to be "in HtH human n00bs kicks tau soldiers in the rear 9 times on 10".



Close combat in 40k is not a test of individual competence at literally melee fighting so much as the representation of close quarters fighting generally. That might include short range shooting and the use of grenades (hence the CC benefits for having pistols and grenades), in which case the average guardsmen probably does not possess any substantial advantage over the average Tau Fire Warrior, who is well armoured, trained and equippped

I fear you're mixing up the HtH phase (rule-wise) with the HtH combat (fluff-wise). Chances are that rule-wise the imperials does not have many advantages against tau firewarriors...I don't know, I never assaulted firewarriors with my guards. Fluff-wise, however...well, according to a Last Chancers novels, Tau soldiers were literally "terrified" by the martial expertise of human soldiers.



The Imperial Guard wins battles through numbers not individual competence. Guardsmen aren't really good at melee so much as stubborn at it. Guardsmen are expected to stand their ground and fight to the last man unless told to do otherwise

This is a decent description of some of the IG regiments fighting for the Imperium. Novels and background bits seems to describe (at least to me) a military culture way more complex and diversificated than the standard "hold the line, die to the last man" clichè ;)

Tarian
11-10-2010, 14:50
That, and Krieg shows you can be "Hold the line, die to the last man" battle doctrine, and still be quite capable in CC.

Retribution
11-10-2010, 19:15
The uplifting primer also says the Tau eat babies and what-not

Tarian
11-10-2010, 19:17
The uplifting primer also says the Tau eat babies and what-not

:eek: You mean they don't?

Retribution
11-10-2010, 19:21
:eek: You mean they don't?

Well, who doesn't have an occasional bbq baby :P

The Orange
12-10-2010, 21:44
They are still WS 4. They are the best HTH fighters the Tau have, special characters in fact, and they're WS 4. Not that it's terrible, but it shows the limits of how good the Tau can be. Meanwhile there are guys in the IG codex with WS 5. Saint Celestine has WS 5 and Init 5.

1. Where is is said that their the BEST of the Tau hth fighters?
2. Their bodyguards of a SC, not SC themselves.
3. Shadowsun as well as Shas'O commanders are also WS4, and there's absolutely nothing in their fluff talking about their hth prowess (i.e. nothing saying they need to practice day and night to maintain the pinnacle of their form in hth fighting, maxing out at WS4, etc.).
4. And finally... Farsight = WS5/I5.

So thanks for doing your homework mate you really brought out your big guns for this debate :rolleyes:.

Yresk
13-10-2010, 14:20
fire warrior verssus guardsmen, in the game my money is on the guardsmen with better WS and I.

fluff wise i think the guardsmen would win as well. if they got into close combat the Tau would probably try in desperation to use his pulse rifle that is long and horrible at range. but in close combat its just in the way unless they use it as some sort of quarterstaff. the guardsman kan pull a standard blade and find a hole in the tau armour. or bajonet the guy with greater force or use his lasgun on full auto and rip him up.


close combat in modern armys are not trained to a great extent because the firearms and grenades are simply to effective. when i train in airsoft i always have my knife ready and have gotten several kills over the years but bringing my rifle to bear is not that hard, or using my pistol as its quicker in close quarters and you can use it even when you get grappled.

in the napolianic era, close combat made soldiers soil them selves. Napolions troops routed a force three times their number with a bayonet charge. because of the great fear. bayonets wher thick and triangular. it was almost impossible to heal or recover from one of theese wounds.

during WW1 the use of CC was very limited, but the slow fireing rifles still made it possible to use mass cahrges and bayonets. just keep away from the machineguns and you had an option.

with the advent of automatic weapons, CC was almost unheard of for years but Special forces who needed to be proficient in it for silent kills where trained in some extent. but even they had the famous Hush puppy to take care of that problem.

in modern times as battles have gotten more urbanised and CC was on the menu again. often using their rifles just to push the enemy away in order to get the kill shot.

several forces now have a huge martial arts training but its not to be used as normal, but to improve training and balance and skill. and sometimes to use as close combat but its more used by police officers and when the soldiers have to use less than leathal force.

Godswildcard
13-10-2010, 15:58
Ok. Commenting on the CC in modern times, I do have some things to say:

CC is certainly not done. There are PLENTY of examples even with the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan where troopers have fought with bayonets/HTH. There are even instances of bayonet charges in both wars. So while it doesn't happen as often, it still far from rare. Some troopes even prefer to get close enough to their enemies to dispatch them in H2H or at least VERY close rifle range. This usually varies more by platoon or perhaps company rather than regiment or higher, but it is none the less true.

Also, plenty of military branches train in H2H as a means of combat, not just a means to improve other aspects of warfare. The U.S. Marine Infantry (of which I am a part) train in many aspects of CC, including martial arts, bayonet, knife, weapons of opportunity and crossover weapons. All of these are used as a means to kill, rather than disable. Yes, we learn to disable, but we focus on the lethal aspect of the arts. In fact, Marine Infantry are REQUIRED to be at a certain level in the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program before they are eligible for certain promotions.

NOW, back to the topic at hand...


I'm going to agree with Orange on this topic all of the way. The Tau are more than capable of doing well in CC, and should be modified to reflect this. When the Tau were first released they were supposed to be the 'be all end all' in the shooting phase. The idea was that they would not NEED to get into CC, so why worry about making them presentable in it, although if you wanted to you COULD make some of your army decent at it. Now, I know the IG players will scream, cry and yell 'FOUL!' at this, but you are faced with the option of either upping their CC ability to be more in line with Guard or upping their shooting ability to be BETTER (see: BETTER, not as good, but BETTER) than IG. You either even things out, or you make the IG the well rounded ones and put the Tau back into their position of dominance as the main shooty army. You can argue all you'd like, but that is what they were designed to be in the previous edition(s), and that is either how they should be now, or you make them better in CC, which the fluff certainly and easily allows for.

Joewrightgm
19-10-2010, 18:28
I think also it could be that Guardsmen are probably dirtier fighters, using techniques that Fire Warriors don't know or wouldn't even think about.

For example, a guardsmen would scoop up a rock or broken chair leg and lay into someone with it, while the hapless Fire Warrior is like "hey, thats not a weap-URK"

imperial90
20-10-2010, 04:14
Doesn't the whole lacking depth perception equal to humans tend to be a distinct disadvantage in close combat? The whole I'm gonna stab you thing isn't too useful if you were short because you couldn't tell that the guy was a bit too far away lol

Shinzui
20-10-2010, 06:47
1. Where is is said that their the BEST of the Tau hth fighters?
2. Their bodyguards of a SC, not SC themselves.
3. Shadowsun as well as Shas'O commanders are also WS4, and there's absolutely nothing in their fluff talking about their hth prowess (i.e. nothing saying they need to practice day and night to maintain the pinnacle of their form in hth fighting, maxing out at WS4, etc.).
4. And finally... Farsight = WS5/I5.

So thanks for doing your homework mate you really brought out your big guns for this debate :rolleyes:.

Just to add to this though I don't know how relevant it is but Aun'shi background it mentioned he joined with the Shas'vre in battle rituals using Honor blades. Probably explains why Shas'vre ws and I increases to 3. Though don't know if its still relevant in background as Aun'shi has vanished since 3rd edition.

The Orange
20-10-2010, 20:36
lacking depth perception

Can you give me the reference for that? I've often herd it said, but have never found where it was written. And wouldn't you'd think having poor depth perception would sort of be a problem for a shooting army?

Balgora
20-10-2010, 21:31
As far as I know it's just something that has been assumed by people because of the helmet design for a fire warrior.

Only things I remember being mentioned are that tau have slightly slower ability to focus with their eyes, and that they see further down into ultra-violet or something similar..I kinda blanked out that part being colourblind myself.

But that's just a gut feeling, i'd be quite interested aswell if somebody can show me exactly where to look(if i had to guess i'd say xenology?) :)

imperial90
20-10-2010, 22:18
I dont think depth perception would be as major a problem for shooting then it would be for combat. For shooting you dont need depth perception as much except for maybe extreme ranges cause generally when you fire something it tends to go in a relatively straight line, and for those you have targeting assistance things.

Shinzui
20-10-2010, 22:22
Can you give me the reference for that? I've often herd it said, but have never found where it was written. And wouldn't you'd think having poor depth perception would sort of be a problem for a shooting army?

That's from Index Xenos:Tau. Though its says they have poorer depth perception compared to humans not that its just poor in general.

Though they also have superior vision compared to humans.

The Orange
22-10-2010, 00:57
That's from Index Xenos:Tau.
I'm guessing that's in an old WD so won't be easy to get ahold of :(.

Carlos
22-10-2010, 07:45
Fire Warriors are based on Samurai. They are utterly loyal soldiers who have elevated war to an artform. Farsight is based on the Satsuma rebellion (which is why Farsight still fights for the Empire, just not the Ethereals) and Puretide is Yamamoto Tsunetomo who wrote the Hagakure.

The Samurai saw ranged combat, or rather firearms as dishonorable and the Tau feel the same about close combat. They train to defend themselves with Side Arms just as the Samurai had Archery but their purist stance should never be broken. If Tau are to be improved in assault either beef up Kroot or add new aliens.