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Pariah1
18-08-2010, 17:23
So what started as a thread about afew orc and goblin spells migrated to rules for what units can see by 8th edition standards...if you're curious it can be read here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270830)
No real need to post there unless you feel the need to clarify the actual thread topic.

So the question I have is what determines what a unit can see. This really isnt much of an issue with normal charging and shooting as the rules are quite clear on those topics. It gets muddled when you have a spell or effect that states to move the a unit toward the closest enemy that the unit can see.

An argument was made that there are no longer vision arcs in 8th and you simply use the LoS rules as per page 10 which basically states an unobstructed view from the models eyes to the targets body(arms, legs, etc). What this says to me if this has any truth is that if I have a model with his head canted to the side I can now technically claim I can see to whichever flank that models head is canted to. Again this has no bearing on basic rules i.e charging and shooting.

Where it becomes an issue would be such things as the OnG spells that move a unit in the direction of the closest enemy unit that can be seen. Or one that would benifit me in paticular - titalating delusions - which states to chose a point that a enemy unit can see and it must move there....so if the above is true, just find a model in a unit that is modeled diffrently with a head facing to a side and I can make that unit move totally out of wack...which I would think is more useful than what was intended by the spell.

The only rules I can find to dispute this are under the shooting section on pg 39, where it states that in order to shoot we must be able to see our target. Two basic rules are used to determine if a target can be seen. It mentions front arc and LoS as per pg 10. I may have posted the rules alittle to specifically in the last thread so, I'd perfer anyone that has comments to just turn to pg 39, read it for yourself and let me know what you think...would it only pertain to shooting or is it general enough to cover all situations that would call for a target to be seen to have an effect.

All feedback is welcome, appreciate your time.

Grentain
18-08-2010, 18:13
I'd say that it's general enough to cover any situation that would call for a target to be seen. If you're looking at a gang of bloodthirsty orcs out to chop dem some stunties, they're gonna' be like, "Oi! Lookit dat stunty dere! WAAAAAAAGH!" and charge straight forward, not, "Oi! Lookit dat stunty dere! Let's take a moment to look around and see if there are any closer ones, shall we? No? Okay. WAAAAAAAAGH!"

Admittedly, personal interpretations of the rational outcomes and psychology of particular units doesn't hold much water to a rules-lawyer, but my view on the matter stays the same. If you can't see it to be able to shoot it, you can't see it to do anything else, either.

Masque
19-08-2010, 03:07
My rules lawyerness interprets page 39 as follows:

Shooting requires both front arc and line of sight. Therefore, line of sight does not require front arc because if that was true then saying that shooting requires both would be redundant.

Pariah1
19-08-2010, 03:16
My rules lawyerness interprets page 39 as follows:

Shooting requires both front arc and line of sight. Therefore, line of sight does not require front arc because if that was true then saying that shooting requires both would be redundant.

So you're saying that should someone model thier unit in such a way that each model is looking in proper directions, then that unit can see tagets 360?
I figured they seperated the two to clarify that even if a unit is within the forward arc there may be objects obstructing views, so in order to see a unit it requires both front arc and an unobstructed view of the target.

Theres another passage for wizards to support a forward vision arcs under the magic missle passage pg31 - must see the target therefore must be in the front arc and have unobstructed LoS.

And again for Warmachines, though not as specific it does say when shooting to pivot the warmachine so it is facing the target pg 109.

But I am looking for a consensus here, so varying interpritations are welcome

RanaldLoec
19-08-2010, 12:00
The battle rule book when refering to ling of sight also tends to refer to forward arcs.

Shooting

Pg 39 Check that the shooter can see the target

Firstly the target enemy unit must lie partially within the shooting models forward arc.

Magic

Pg 31 Choosing a target

The target must lie within the wizards forward arc.

Pg16 Decalre Charge

When you declare a charge, one or more of the models in the unit must be able to trace a line of sight to the enemy unit, and the target must lie at least partially within the charging unit's front arc.

True line of sight is limited in alot of cases by the units or models front arc.

For units, monsters and warmachines this is the old 90 degree arc

For lone character models or skirmishes it 180 degrees.

So does any one have any examples of line of sight used in a game mechanic without a forward arc? I can see the other side of the discussion in that pg 10 simple says a model has to be able to draw an unobstructed view from its eyes to a model in the enemy unit to see it with no reference to forward arcs.

But as above line of sight in all three of the phases that make use of line of sight there are examples of it being restricted every time by the forward arc of the model unit.

Pariah1
19-08-2010, 14:55
@RanaldLoec
For the most part most situations are pretty clear that you need both, but as I said in the original post, there are afew effects that state to do X to taget unit that Y can see....X being the target and Y being your unit. The only three examples I currently have are what I stated The WAAAGH! spell, little hand of gork, and titalating delusioins from the WOC book - which just state closest unit you can see, or in the latter case nominate a point on the table the target unit can see.

I'm suprised that I havent been called an idiot yet;) from some of the more ventran posters

Can you give me a page reference to the skirmish/lone character 180 front arc? At work atm, I'd like to go over that as I dont recall seeing that in my first read through....of course I glossed over skirmishing units, as my army book has none available to me, so didnt spend alot of time there.

AMWOOD co
19-08-2010, 21:32
The rules for Line of Sight do not mention anything about facing (p10), only that an unobstructed view is possible between your models eyes and the intended target.

This may mean that you draw the line of sight from your models actual eyes and don't go through its own head but I would not take this approach. After all, most of our models have necks, right? Rather I would say that the model can draw line of sight from its head, ignoring its own body, in a full 360 degree spectrum. The limiting factor in most cases is that he can only shoot or charge things in his front arc (no exceptions unless stated otherwise).

As for WAAAGH!, I would probably say the rule for it has to be grandfathered (ie. taken in the context of the time it was written) to at least some extent. With the exception of models with random movement values (Pump Wagons, Fanatics and Hoppers), a models Line of Sight for Hand of Gork and WAAAGH! should be considered what is now Line of Sight and front arc, as they were in 7th edition (the only difference would be lone infantry characters who may no longer charge in any direction as they are now considered to have a front, a rear, and flanks).

I would use the same guideline for Hand of Gork as well. Better to use the spell as it was meant to be used at the time than making up new stuff. As for Titallating Dellusions, I would consider front arc and line of sight as requirements. This is the same except it excludes random movement. Then again, what has random movement that isn't immune to psychology?

Synnister
19-08-2010, 22:42
The more I think about it the more I'm in the everything has 360 LOS camp. It seems that since they only want you to charge/shoot stuff in front of you that's why they added 'forward arc' in addition to having LOS to the target. Don't know I'll have to review the words of the rules to get a better sense of it.

Synnister
20-08-2010, 03:30
So poking around the GW website I stumbled on this little ditty:


- Lone Characters: Note that lone characters no longer have a 360 degree arc of sight. All models use the same 90 degree arc of sight now, and can only 'see' in the direction they are facing.

This was in a article written by Jervis Johnson and the entire article can be read here http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?type=article&aId=12400021a&name=name&projectId=prj213254a&atgPreviewId=390004

So it seems that arc of sight is indeed determined by the shooting rules that say you gotta have the target in the forward arc.

AMWOOD co
20-08-2010, 05:46
For purposes of the shooting phase and charges, I whole heartedly agree. For spells defined in the BRB, I also agree, as no spell that needs line of sight can be cast at a unit not in the front arc.

The problem comes when dealing with older spells and their effects. For purposes of targetting, I would define a spell from the old army books as they were inteded, ie. Line of Sight means is visible to the model and lies within its forward arc.

Now, what about fanatics and WAAAGH!? Fanatic models are on circular bases and thus have no means for an arc to be drawn.

What about the Doom Totem in Warriors of Chaos? If you can draw line of sight to it, but it's outside your forward arc, do you still suffer -1 Ld?

The reason for my distinction falls squarely on line of sight rules on page 10 not mentioning facing at all and every important point where line of sight is brought up either mentions the forward arc or does not. Charging: pg 16, second column, 1st paragraph; Magic: p31, Choosing A Target, and individual spell types; Shooting: p39, Check That The Shooter Can See The Target. Other cases calling for Line of Sight are right now from army books written when line of sight required both, so I would grandfather them and say it applies as such.

RanaldLoec
20-08-2010, 09:41
@RanaldLoec


I'm surprised that I havenít been called an idiot yet;) from some of the more ventran posters

Can you give me a page reference to the skirmish/lone character 180 front arc? At work atm, I'd like to go over that as I dont recall seeing that in my first read through....of course I glossed over skirmishing units, as my army book has none available to me, so didnt spend alot of time there.

My bad on the skirmishing and lone characters its the normal 90 degree forward arc not 180 :wtf: Where my brain plucked that gem from I do not know.

As for potentially being called an idiot by more veteran posters Iíve been called much worse than that before :D.

If you read the 2nd to last sentence of my other post I did say I can see both sides please see below.

I can see the other side of the discussion in that pg 10 simple says a model has to be able to draw an unobstructed view from its eyes to a model in the enemy unit to see it with no reference to forward arc.

In my original post I was trying to convey that it may be the intention of the game designers to limit line of sight to forward arcs and listed a few examples.

Notice the use of the word may, meaning I'm undecided RAW would indicate line of sight from the eyes as per the rule book and would disregard forward arc.

So if you where to model a unit with heads facing in multiple directions then yes they have line of sight to which every way the models eyes face.

Like I said before I can see both side to the discussion.:D

knauden
20-08-2010, 11:15
So if you have a figure with eyes everywhere on its body, or like a hydra then you can see everything..lol just go home and convert your models to have multiple heads..

seriously use common sense..

an archer have an front arc of 90 degrees and then you use true line of sight to spot things from there, like a model in a wood or something similar.

Pariah1
20-08-2010, 15:26
Moot point now. GW has released afew new PDFs in the articles section called Steadfast - A guide to the wahammer rulebook. Part three covers easy to miss rules, under lone characters it specifies that they no longer have a 360 and that ALL models now use the 90 degree vision arc. kinda handy.

Thanks for the replies folks