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Macavity
18-08-2010, 18:39
Well, here is the full rant. If you don't want to read it in full, that's fine, but please don't comment on the first thing you read if you haven't. Four very wordy points based on my thread title after this disclaimer: Still haven't played 8th edition myself, waiting for Island of Blood.

1) It's a new edition of the game. Some people on this board (and out in the world) are very smart, but you have not adjusted yet. I actually really liked Jervis's online article pointing out numerous times that "You used to be able to.... but now.....". People using their old army lists won't win easily. People using units in the old way won't win. People using what they think is best based of a reading of the rulebook may or may not win.

This may seem like an odd analogy, but the first time I played Street Fighter II (on SNES, wasn't an arcade guy), Whoever was Blanka always won. Why? Because the only moves we could pull of reliably were the ones that required only pressing one button, and his worked anytime the opponent was near you. This did not mean the game was broken (turned out it was, but in favour of Guile), but it did mean that we had to change our definition of how to enjoy it until we learned, and that we had to sometimes NOT attack friends to let them practise moves.

This applies pretty directly to 8th edition. You may be the smartest guy at your store or gaming group and have an 'unbeatable' unit or tactic, but outside tourneys for prizes, you are better off helping train your opponents than either creaming them or purposefully ignoring your best options. A quick conversation of "Wow, my {insert name of awesome unit or tactic} cleaned up. I wonder how well they would do against {insert your best idea of how opponent's army could counter you}?" can turn the loser of a one-sided game from an angry guy who dis-likes playing you into a guy who is both looking forward to playing you again, and will help you hone your skills better. Barring Prizes or severe inferiority complexes, one of our goals every game should be making better opponents for ourselves.


2) Hockey Fights. In my country (Canada) a lot of people care about this silly sport called hockey. The main league (NHL) has a problem that almost no one in the U.S. cares, so debates on rule changes come up often. One of the common ones is, "Should fighting be allowed?", and usually someone will run a public poll, and the majority will be anti-fighting, and then, sooner-or-later, we get this quotation, "Public polls are stupid. REAL fans like fighting, why would the league care about the opinion of non-fans?" The answer, obviously, is that the Hockey Fans are already hockey fans. Removing something that prevents others from enjoying it may very well get you more fans. I myself watch the Junior tourneys and Olympics but never the NHL.

Relevance? GW is a business, and they are far more concerned (and should be) with whether their product is appealing to non-participants then if the people already playing see the need for change. Alessio Cavatore in particular mentioned in both the updates to LoTR and 40k the concept of removing or changing rules that weren't "intuitive". "Why can that guy hit first?" "Because he is more agile. It's in his stat line" Makes sense to the casual observer. "Why can't those 30 guys standing there take out the 5 knights who just charged them?" "They aren't allowed to attack." "WHY?" "Because the knights killed the guys in front of them." Not so intuitive.

If you've ever tried to teach a game to a new-comer one of the major concerns of many of them is the sheer number of things they are expected to remember. In a game like Warhammer the different troops types they may encounter and the multiple stats are intimidating already. The more the rules of moving and fighting with these little guys 'just make sense', the easier it is for new players to get in to it. I believe Jervis when he says the peopel having trouble with the new rules are the old players. Which brings us nicely to.....

3) Nintendo Wii. The most brilliant marketing move ever. The Nintendo Wii bypassed the question of "How do we get a bigger share of the Gamer money?" By answering the question, "How do we get new people to play video games?" People who hate the Wii tend to be established gamers who a) Always use old style controls and b) Play on their own. It wasn't made for you. It's ridiculous fun to watch my 65 year old father who has never played a video game in his life Wii bowling with my 4 year old nephew and them both loving it. Nintendo's message to hard-core gamers largely has been, "Who needs you?"

No matter how much GW is still the big kid on the block for miniature gaming, miniature gaming has been on the rise in recent years. Heroclix, Star Wars Minis, HeroScape, even TwoHourWargames which doesn't make miniatures, have all been growing. So GW wants a piece of the pie, checks online to see what their fans have to say about these competitors and largely see, "They are for kids". "Too simple".

So what does GW do? Thankfully they have not gone back to BattleMasters/HeroQuest and actually made games for kids again, but they have made sure that the games they DO have make sense to new-comers. Some of us REALLY like the arcane nature of things. LOVE knowing stuff others don't, and it's heart-wrending to have all that knowledge become useless. Doesn't mean strategy is gone, though. As many have pointed out, those whose flaw is to always need to challenge themselves will find more strategy in the scenarios, because adjusting to changing circumstances engages their brain during the game, rather than before. My own flaw is the need to be unique (though I fight it). I'm the guy who plays an All-Halfling no Treeman BloodBowl team. I'm as likely to not use a tactic or unit/character because they are popular or effective as anything else. So edition switch doesn't matter to me in that sense. What does matter is.....


4) Little Toy Men. When I was young, I had HeroQuest, then BattleMasters, then bought 3rd Edition Warhammer, played a little, gave up. Played Mutant Chronicles. Bloodbowl, Necromunda, 40k, Heroclix, Star Wars Miniatures, even picked up a few D&D miniatures (This spanning a couple of decades). I was bemoaning to my wife that I never really played with any of the games I had, and feeling a bit guilty at the money spent when two co-workers started talking about getting into 40k with the 5th edition and wanted me to join. In mulling it over, I came to a realization. Though I love strategy gaming (really, like Diplomacy weekend love), I actually had not bought most of those miniatures because the games were great. I bought them because I love little toy soldiers. So with an extremely limited hobby budget, I made a decision.

I would go down to The GW store, take a free painting lesson, and, if I liked it, start the hobby for real, even if I could game only irregularily. I went, I loved it and foudn it much easier than anticipated. Ended up leaving that job due to other circumstances, and Went for LoTR instead. I love the scenario books, and re-creating the look the Fellowship should have (Boromir was dark haired, Mr. Jackson!). When 8th edition Warhammer rumours started popping up, I got increasingly interested and this is why:

All GW does, other then make models, is give us guidelines to playing with toys. That's it. If you are not the person who likes how cool little models of Dwarves, or Orcs, or Zombies, or Big TriceraStegaMakeitupSaurus with giant crossbows are, this isn't the game for you. High strategy is better available in various boardgames, and always will be. GW made the choice to provide us with, essentially, every type of fantasy warrior we could want. The 8th edition rules make a lot of the options playable, which is what the intention is: To play with our toys.

Some will always be more about the game then the painting, some will be more about winning than themed armies, some will borrow all their strategies from the internet, but a love of the little dudes HAS to come first. I honestly believe that, in addition to legitimate sales concerns for certain models, most people at GW don't get power-gaming. If you want to play with elves, you will have archers. Why? Because that's the image in our geeky little brains. Dwarves should be doughty warriors who never give up, and fight to the last for the same reason. I honestly think people like Jervis, or Gav, or any of the guys who remember having the toys before the rules to play with them don't get why on earth someone would field an all gun dwarf army. That's not what we love about dwarves. The brilliance of 8th edition (and yes, I've read the BRB even if I don't own it) is that they FINALLY realized that some people need to be taught how to have fun and have included options rules and lessons on scenario building to this end. Hopefully we learn!


Rant over,

Mac

DDogwood
18-08-2010, 18:45
Well said.

Malorian
18-08-2010, 18:46
Coles Notes:

GW made 8th to target new players. Old and new gamers should take it for what it is and have fun.

Lorcryst
18-08-2010, 18:50
You know, I haven't read the new rules (waiting fo IoB), but I agree with your four points ... especially the "love of toy soldiers" one ...

mistrmoon
18-08-2010, 18:51
Well said. On a side not i thought i would point out though that heroclix and starwars minis are both kaput as far as i know.

Urgat
18-08-2010, 18:52
Mmmh. I like your post. Shame it's a wasted effort, but I salute it, at least :)

MindSlave
18-08-2010, 18:54
Nicely said, well written. And, I think you're right, I for one can't abide the constant bickering about 8th we have on these forums.

LaurentleBete
18-08-2010, 18:58
An excellent post and a very interesting read.

In my opinion, and I'm sure I'm not alone, 7th had grown stale and stagnated. A breath of fresh air was needed, and that's exactly what 8th brought with it. I actually see people playing fantasy at my local GW now, instead of just seeing varying space marine armies.

Fruhauf
18-08-2010, 19:01
If it would fit in my sig, I would put it all there. Brilliantly put and as a new gamer (I started gaming in about March) I COMPLETELY agree.

8th ed is much easier to get the basics and makes more sense in peoples minds.

No step-up in 7th... seriously, in a real scenario a unit would not wait for the enemy to get closer if all the people in front of them had just died. That was just the first example to spring to mind, but I'm sure there are many many more.

ewar
18-08-2010, 19:17
It was a nice post and I respect your opinion, though I disagree with some. Simplifying systems is all well and good to attract new players, but there is a tipping point where the depth of a game is lost and then long term involvement becomes impossible.

Even Nintendo has seen Wii sales fall off a cliff because the novelty has worn off - I'm one of those allegedly 'hard core' videogamers and I can't stand playing the Wii because of it's fuzzy controls and rubbish games. Fun drunk at a party, sure, but it won't hold the attention span.

I just feel that it is the veteran gamers who really represent a core of either the videogame or hobby markets. Will your Dad buy the next wii when it comes out? Or just stick with the one he's got because it's perfectly good?

I think the same applies to wargames - you may attract lots of new players, but essentially table top wargaming with little plastic men is a pretty niche hobby. They would do better to make a really well thought out, balanced, fun, deep game which will grow organically over time.

I don't honestly want them to return to LOTR boom days... that didn't do anyone any good and I think is a good example of the inflation driven by new players who quickly drop the hobby and move onto something else.

I am all for keeping warhammer popular though, don't get me wrong, I just wish they would be a bit more considered about it. The same way they allowed their own books to ruin 7th ed, month after month when every player with eyes and a brain could tell them they were committing commercial seppuku.

I'm very positive about 8th ed rejuvenating the hobby, but the grumbling old fart in me is pretty cynical about how popular it will be in 2 years time.

p.s. forgot to mention - as for powergaming, I honestly do not believe the studio are as naive as you claim. Alessio was a hardcore tournament player when he joined the company, and a lot of the staff are seen playing at GTs or mingling with players big on the UK tournament scene. See the regular appearance of the two Bens (can't remember surnames, think they're involved with Bad Dice) in white dwarf and even in the damn rulebook!

Col. Dash
18-08-2010, 19:27
I agree with everything except #2.
When I talk about hockey with friends and coworkers one of the best parts of the game to me is players can get in a fight and then get sent to a box to rest for a couple minutes. Thats one of the biggest draws for the game as I dont think other sports are violent enough.
Yes dammit, I want gladiator combat to return.

Enigmatik1
18-08-2010, 19:33
Way to take it back with the SFII reference.

I couldn't help but laugh at the analogy because I made it my life's goal (back then) to master Dhalism, who was arguably the worst character in the game mechanically. Once I did, I had little trouble with Guile. ;)

Funny how history has an odd way of repeating itself since I'm now trying to do the same thing with Tomb Kings. :D

Macavity
18-08-2010, 20:04
Quick notes. Ewar: as far as the Wii, the novelty factor is a gamers issue. The sheer fun and ease of playability is what attracts others. They don't know games well enough for this to be a novelty, it's just fun. I could be wrong about some GW people but less likely ones who pre-date Warhammer. I can't speak to how much it's been 'simplified' since I didn't play 7th, but streamlining and dumbing down aren't usually the same thing.

Col. Dash: You are clearly an established fan ;)

mistrmoon: Nope, though both have morphed far past my involvement (If you need cards now, why bother with the stats on the base?)

Enigmatik1: You have two months, starting now, to provide me with a picture of a Khemri character painted to look like Dhalsim. If you succeed, I may get around to painting a DoomDiver to look like Super Grover to go on a celebrity tour with him!

Enigmatik1
18-08-2010, 20:09
Enigmatik1: You have two months, starting now, to provide me with a picture of a Khemri character painted to look like Dhalsim. If you succeed, I may get around to painting a DoomDiver to look like Super Grover to go on a celebrity tour with him!

Oh wow. I'm a terrible painter/modeller (why else would I choose a skeleton heavy army despite hating skeletons??? :p), but I might be able to pull off something not revolting with the Liche Priest on foot model...if I can remove his pharoah hat without jacking up the model.

YOGA!

Maoriboy007
18-08-2010, 21:04
Way to take it back with the SFII reference.

I couldn't help but laugh at the analogy because I made it my life's goal (back then) to master Dhalism, who was arguably the worst character in the game mechanically. Once I did, I had little trouble with Guile. ;)

Funny how history has an odd way of repeating itself since I'm now trying to do the same thing with Tomb Kings. :D

I had the same philosiphy with my TKs throughout 6th & 7th edition.
I was the resident E.Honda and Zangief player myself, every victory over Guile was a soothing balm on my soul...
Dhalsim had his cheap fireball middle kick combo too...

Yoga Fire...Yoga Fire...Yoga Flame!

Back on subject, I kind of agree with Ewar - totally disregarding your hard-core fanbase is not a great thing, especially in favour of a fickle "younger" audience.
8th edition is like the Final Fantasy XIII of warhammer, sure the pictures are prettier and its new and shiny, but they somehow managed to remove the magic and depth from the game that managed to keep me hooked for hours of what what should have been boring and repetitve gameplay.
I still bought the game because I was a fan of the series and played it for a while, but it wasn't the awesome experience I had come to expect.

goodz
18-08-2010, 21:18
8th edition is like the Final Fantasy XIII of warhammer, sure the pictures are prettier and its new and shiny, but they somehow managed to remove the magic and depth from the game that managed to keep me hooked for hours of what what should have been boring and repetitve gameplay.


FF8 was my favorite in the series, although i really enjoyed 7 as well. Then i disliked 9 and didn't ever end up buying 10 (kinda stopped gaming on the computer when i got a job working on one all day...)

More on topic, i prefer 7th thus far but probably just because i don't really like the skirmisher rules or how you draw LoS through forests. (i do like it more that you can move through them quicker, i would just like to be able to hide behind them:). I play woodelves so for most people those changes probably arent as big a deal.

8th has brought some more enjoyment to the game for sure though just because it is new. I lose every game but have fun doing it. And in gamesworkshops favour i was forced to buy a treeman because i wanted anything that would hold for a round of combat!

Maoriboy007
18-08-2010, 21:49
FF8 was my favorite in the series, although i really enjoyed 7 as well. Then i disliked 9 and didn't ever end up buying 10 (kinda stopped gaming on the computer when i got a job working on one all day...)

A pity, VII and X are the best in the series. :)


8th has brought some more enjoyment to the game for sure though just because it is new.

Like FFXIII. Shiny and new, but it gets old real fast.


I lose every game but have fun doing it.

Again..that could get old real fast :angel:

leeoaks
18-08-2010, 22:16
I think the rules should be made better or not at all. Time will tell if this will be a good edition or not. if GW want better sales they should employ sales managers and staff who also game and pay them reasonable wages.
Only good rules and games will hold the attention of a new gamer and keep Warhammer as addictive as Crack!

Every decent manager i have ever know has left GW as lets face it you can't live, have a family, provide for them with a house and be comfortable with a 14-16k salary. The starting wage at most companies is 14k!

Commodus Leitdorf
18-08-2010, 22:33
The OP is correct, Blanka was a noobs best friend ;)

Oh, also the rest of it is pretty nice as well.

Maoriboy007
18-08-2010, 22:38
I think the rules should be made better or not at all...

That is well said :D

Macavity
18-08-2010, 22:44
Indeed, but I would maintain that thus far, no one knows if this is the case or not.

Cuchulain84
18-08-2010, 22:48
I actually came to a similar realisation myself. I was wondering why I wasn't getting the same kick out of the hobby after starting it up again a year ago as opposed to when I was younger. And I realised it's because I took it back up again with the focus on the game, the rules, and competition. As I looked back I realised that as a young'un I had never really even properly learnt the rules, I just loved the characterful fantasy worlds, and the mini's and rules were just tools to bring these to life.
If I can find people of a similar mindset around me, i'd love to just start playing fun, themed scenario games with flexible rules and completely forget about trying to fit as many of the best units into a 1500pt list as possible.
Trouble is finding anyone to play with around here is a challenge.

Bingo the Fun Monkey
19-08-2010, 00:44
I actually came to a similar realisation myself. I was wondering why I wasn't getting the same kick out of the hobby after starting it up again a year ago as opposed to when I was younger. And I realised it's because I took it back up again with the focus on the game, the rules, and competition. As I looked back I realised that as a young'un I had never really even properly learnt the rules, I just loved the characterful fantasy worlds, and the mini's and rules were just tools to bring these to life.
If I can find people of a similar mindset around me, i'd love to just start playing fun, themed scenario games with flexible rules and completely forget about trying to fit as many of the best units into a 1500pt list as possible.
Trouble is finding anyone to play with around here is a challenge.

Dude, I could have typed that myself. When I was a young'un starting just a month before 5th ed released, I didn't really know the rules. I had obsessed over the hobby for a a whole edition before playing a full "by the rules" game in 6th. But I had painted, written stories, done conversions, etc all the while as my best friend and I theoryhammered. It's a shame you're across the pond.

Lord Dan
19-08-2010, 00:52
Where has this guy been? That was fantastic-- a great read with some great points.

wysematt2222
19-08-2010, 00:54
Bravo. Couldnt agree more, the spirit of playing with toy soldiers gets lost all too often. I am as guilty as the next guy. I find I have the most fun when I recall how awesome little green men were on the sidewalk. Ill always remember that nothing beat that little bent bazooka!

R-Love
19-08-2010, 03:17
Bravo. Couldnt agree more, the spirit of playing with toy soldiers gets lost all too often. I am as guilty as the next guy. I find I have the most fun when I recall how awesome little green men were on the sidewalk. Ill always remember that nothing beat that little bent bazooka!

I remember a large number of them absolutely slaughtered by a magnifying glass...or a lighter...or the neighbors dog (that one was usually unintentional)...good times :). Something fun you can't do with Warhammer minis (well ok, I guess you could...)

Gromdal
19-08-2010, 10:54
If you want to play with elves, you will have archers. Why? Because that's the image in our geeky little brains. Dwarves should be doughty warriors who never give up, and fight to the last for the same reason. I honestly think people like Jervis, or Gav, or any of the guys who remember having the toys before the rules to play with them don't get why on earth someone would field an all gun dwarf army.




Mac

Here is the problem for me why I will not play my dwarfs and thus atm not warhammer at all.

Dwarfs do RUN away like little schoolgirls, skaven are much more reliable.
This make a mockery of the whole dwarf character and I will never play them until it is fixed (i dont care if they remove their stone thrs or make them more expensive, I will never except that the dwarfs break from their brothers more easily than a lil rat or gobbo in a big block).

Lord of the End Times
19-08-2010, 12:13
I was expecting another moan about how 8th edition is the end of wargaming as we know it, but that was actually an intelligent and well thought out post.

Zark the Damned
19-08-2010, 12:35
Well said. On a side not i thought i would point out though that heroclix and starwars minis are both kaput as far as i know.
Star Wars yes, Heroclix got bought by another company and is still going strong.

On topic, great article :)

RanaldLoec
19-08-2010, 13:50
Well written, well thought out and I agree with you on allot of your points. BRAVO

Wakerofgods
19-08-2010, 14:04
Good points, fair and valid. But perhaps taken a bit far and gone a bit preachy...

There has to be some give and take here, some understanding. By your own admission you haven't even played, and I took from your article you are in general a far more 'casual' player then some here. Now, I want to be clear that I don't say that to put you down as a gamer I'd consider myself casual in the same way. But I also have experienced and understand the point of view of the other group. Playing competitive games can be a lot of fun. Some people take it too far no doubt. Some people need to be told to just relax a bit and remember the hobby side, the feel of the game. But it should also be noted that the 'hobby side' or the feel of the game isn't the only thing. They get things from this game that you don't and that doesn't make them wrong. I'm aware you haven't specifically stated your point of view is the only one and I might be interpreting you a bit strongly, but you also don't seem to have cut them any slack.

To some people playing a rules set competitively and using a rule-set that is internationally recognized is in itself important, and may even have been a substantial contributor to why they started playing! Further, people don't have to be extremely competitive for this to be true of them. I house rule mordhiem with my friends as much as we can! But, when it comes to warhammer I am extremely fond of the international rule-set, it's important to me and it contributes a lot to why I play and continue to buy models. My actual playing of warhammer is very casual, with my friends some weekends and rarely at any of the local clubs. But the idea that I am playing a fundamentally competitive rule-set with internationally accepted standards is critical to why I like warhammer. Without those aspects, I would be playing mordhiem and D&D instead. I love playing mordhiem and D&D with house rules and a relaxed enforcing of rules where appropriate but I also lose playing warhammer because it has a different feel and a different role for me. Warhammer for me is like playing a game of rugby or any sport fun and relaxing in the ways it needs to be but also with elements of competitiveness and a standard set of rules.

Of course this isn't to say that people don't come to the forums, or wherever else, and go too far complaining about balance and rules. But for people who get what I get out of warhammer discussions about rules and what they should be (but also a fierce unwillingness to house rule in such changes regardless of how strongly they are felt to be right) is part of the territory. It is central to the enjoyment of the game itself, to gamers like me that get this from warhammer. The main problem we have is that there are two very different reasons to play warhammer the hobby and 'the sport'. We all have the love of the hobby or we would be playing a different game but only some of us have that strong love of warhammer as 'the sport' (or at least the love of it in the sense I've described above).

My point is, that instead of just bashing people (general statement, not aiming at the OP directly with this one, I've ended up on my own rant) about how they don't put the hobby before the competition or 'the sport' remember that there is no rule saying that your reason for liking warhammer is the right one.

My personal view is that the love of the hobby is the best reason to be in here doing this stuff...but I also think that people sometimes forget that there are other reasons for being here. Cut the people that like to argue rules some slack sometimes they go to far yes, but a lot of the time they are just enjoying their hobby in the way they want to even if it seems very alien to you. You might not understand ruleslawering or how people like it but the point is they do and that's their right.

However, if they are ruining your experience of the game in a more direct fashion (from the other side of the tabletop) then I wholeheartedly support staying something. But here on the forum, let them talk about their ruleslawering and such it's their hobby too.

chilledenuff
19-08-2010, 14:15
@ the OP: A fantastic post. I like everything that was said and the way you said it. I wish I could be as eloquant. Kudos sir!

amysrevenge
19-08-2010, 15:26
Nice post but futile in the end (just like pretty much any example of arguing on the internet you can imagine). Those that agree will continue to agree, those that don't will continue to disagree. Life moves on.

Macavity
20-08-2010, 00:16
Wakerofgods.

(OP here, in case not obvious) I really can't disagree with anything you said. I would say that there is nothing wrong with competitive gaming (maybe with occasional competitive gamER).

I guess what got me started is that people seem to have forgotten that they learned the old rules too. I'm not the guy who plays the most, but at the same time, nobody has adjusted, and new people (even older ones like myself) aren't analyzing the CHANGES, they are looking at the rules. "Do the rules for cavalry work?" is a very different question then, "Do my old tactics for cavalry work?"

I understand not wanting something you love messed with. There are whole realms of superheros who I would say I love whose current comics I've avoided for years. I've recently been force fed some more current collections and, though Wolverine is still nonsense, I'm enjoying a surprising number.

Having now read all parts of Jervis's article, I would say he's almost dead on (except for the certainty that no armies are better than another). Give it a shot the way it's meant to be played, with scenarios, and see if you like it. You might not, and ultimately if what you want most is no randomness, there are fantastic other games to play, even in the fantasy genre but give it a real shot!

As to my odd style of getting my thoughts across.... I write like I talk, and I love the sound of my own voice!

Mac

warmong3r
20-08-2010, 00:33
I agree with you Macavity. I agree with # 3 and i really like and relate to # 4 (original post). It was a great read

Nubl0
20-08-2010, 00:56
I agree too, funnily enough what got me back into the hobby was not the new shiny edition, infact nothing to do with the game at all. I just popped in saw the new bloodletters and bloodcrushers... and well the little geek child in me cried out "they are single most coolest thing I have ever seen". My wallet also cried out in pain but I don't care.

So now here I am with a healthy 2500pt daemon army that I game with reguarly, like 4-5 times a week thanks to my awesome local gw. When I see my bloodletters smashing dwarves left right and centre the geek inside is just like... "ooohh yeeeeah...".

Kampfpanzer
20-08-2010, 02:44
I do agree with you, but the problem is, taking your hockey analogy, if they disallow fighting in hockey, hockey fans are still going to watch because they go for the hockey, however, and I have seen this happen, if GW doesn't look after it's current customers as well as trying to get new ones, then the current ones are just going to stop playing too.

Not trying to derail into price hiking, but I think the constant raising of prices is a problem. Yes I understand they have overheads and processes that need to be paid for, but I am still certain that lowering the prices will cause more sales and in turn a much much larger profit margin. Currently people like us that have our armies aren't really buying anything because we have everything we need and might get something here or there we want to add, but new people come into the store, see the prices (I mean AU$50 for 10 plastic guys? Come on GW.) and leave. When I started, 10 marines were AU$20 and the store was always packed with new people, but nowdays it's the same handful of people in there day in and day out. If I could get packs cheaper, then maybe I would have 2 or 3 armies for FB and 40k and maybe a LotR one too, but as it stands I have a 3k 40k army and a 4k FB army and that's pretty much all I can afford. I do however order online now because it is about half price, so it's not to bad, but new customers don't know about the online stores and are stuck with AU$70 boxes of 10 plastic greatswords.

Macavity
20-08-2010, 03:05
I suppose in my ideal dream world everyone would want to buy a wide range of figures and GW drops prices and stops charging equivalent to points value (the character is pretty, the 20 troops shouldn't have the same price tag).

As far as hockey, the central point was that sometimes changes will please more people even if they upset those who see themselves as (and might well be) 'hard-core'. GW still has issues.

chilledenuff
20-08-2010, 06:49
. When I see my bloodletters smashing dwarves left right and centre the geek inside is just like... "ooohh yeeeeah...".

you have to look after your inner geek, :)

Occulto
20-08-2010, 07:17
Again..that could get old real fast :angel:

Does "having fun" get old real fast? :eyebrows:

Maoriboy007
20-08-2010, 09:46
Does "having fun" get old real fast? :eyebrows:

Losing all the time could stop the game being fun and thus get old real fast.:p

Happened to a guy in our gaming club for like a solid year and a half and he stopped coming.
Not really his fault, he just couldn't seem to roll higher than a three, except for Ld tests.

Lorcryst
20-08-2010, 11:44
Losing all the time could stop the game being fun and thus get old real fast.:p


It depends, really. I enjoyed a loosing streak of 40+ games in 7th ed with my Night Goblin army ... never won a game, got two draws and the rest were massacres ... but with that army, I don't play to win (they're gobboes FFS), my aim is at best a draw, what I like is the wacky hijinks of Fanatics flying around and gobboes running amok.

All in all, it's a matter of mindset ... for me, "fun" (my own definition of it, that is) is more important than "win".

Occulto
20-08-2010, 12:50
Losing all the time could stop the game being fun and thus get old real fast.:p

Happened to a guy in our gaming club for like a solid year and a half and he stopped coming.
Not really his fault, he just couldn't seem to roll higher than a three, except for Ld tests.

The result is roughly five minutes worth of bragging at the end, my friend. ;)

As long as the gaming's good, I don't particularly care whether I win or lose. I am lucky that my regular opponents have the same philosophy. :D