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GenerationTerrorist
19-08-2010, 07:27
Hi guys.
I'm wondering if maybe I am the only one thninking this?

What I mean is, that instead of the Magic Phase being capped at 12 (2D6), regardless of the size of the battle, they did not allow things to be scaled up by an extra D6 (Dispel Dice then equals the two highest of the 3D6) for each 1000pts above 2000pts.

For example:

- Games of 2000pts and below: Current setup
- Games of 2001-3000pts: 3D6 PD generation, Dispel D6 equals the 2 highest D6 of those 3D6 thrown.
- Games of 3001-4000pts: 4D6 PD generation, Dispel D6 equals the 3 highest D6 of those 4D6 thrown.
- etc...

Surely this would allow for more flexibility in list building at larger scale battles, and mean that there would be enough PD/DD for wizards to utilise.

What are people's thoughts?
Ta,
GT

Urgat
19-08-2010, 07:56
My thoughts is that yeah, it should scale, and your way is the way I thought, excepted I'd simply thought of the winds giving a D6 per 1000 points, so, essentially, what you said, excepted at 1000pts you only get 1 dice. For DD, you remove the lowest dice roll, to a minimum of one dice kept (so people don't go "no dispel dice for j00 at 1000 points and less).
Anyway, I'm sure everybody thinks the same, so why did GW do that? Who knows, maybe they've just made simple magic rules and are planning an advanced magic supplement, or maybe there's some arcane reason we don't know of, or maybe just because they didn't want dozens of wizards to show up in larger battles.
We'll probably never know.

Gatsby
19-08-2010, 08:06
Because GW has no forethought. OH and they don't playtest. OH and they don't produce FAQs that resolve problems.

CthulhuDalek
19-08-2010, 08:15
I guess you could say that their reasoning was "There's only SO much magic in an area at a given time, it doesn't matter how many wizards you have, they merely tap into what's already there..." Which is good fluff-wise perhaps, but may not scale well, as people seem to be noticing.

I like the idea of 1d6 per thousand points. Has a nice ring to it. But what if the dispel dice were the d3 value of the d6s rolled?

I think it's weird that if I roll a 6 and a 1 for the winds of magic, that my opponent gets 6 dispel dice, and I get 7 power dice, whereas with my system, they would get, 4. This result is equivalent to a roll of 3 and 4 under the current system. In my system, results of 7 would almost always yield a 4.

d10 roll:
1+6 = 7-- currently yields 6 dispel dice. Mine: 4
2+5 = 7-- currently yields 5 dispel dice. Mine: 4
3+4 = 7-- currently yields 4 dispel dice. Mine: 4

5+5=10-- currently yields 5 dispel dice. Mine: 6.
6+4=10-- currently yields 6 dispel dice. Mine: 5.

6+6=12-- yields 6 dd. Mine: 6.

1+1=2 yields 1, mine yields 2.
1+2=3 yields 2, mine yields 2. In this case, if the enemy rolls higher you actually benefit less, which might actually be preferable.

1+3= yields 3 now, mine yields 3.
2+2= yields 2 now. mine yields 2. These would be no different than the current system. Except that they might scale better.

sim1killa
19-08-2010, 08:28
I thought that the current 2d6 pd was balanced at some were between 2500-3000 points.

taffeh
19-08-2010, 08:32
Because Dark Angels have different Manafactorums and Forgeworlds from the rest of the Imperium....

Oh wait... thats another form of BS too :)


I like ur scalability rules.... I'm sure JJ will be saying "whatever makes your game fun and you happy" somewhere

Toshiro
19-08-2010, 08:32
I think that the scaling is that magic becomes less destructive on higher points totals, right now it can really devastate an army on lower and medium points game, but at higher points it will generally not matter as much. Mostly I think it's fluff reasons though, the winds of magic are as they are and wizards can't influence that to much.

Gatsby
19-08-2010, 08:37
Because Dark Angels have different Manafactorums and Forgeworlds from the rest of the Imperium....

Oh wait... thats another form of BS too :)

dude.... i got nothing... that was just perfect.

sim1killa
19-08-2010, 08:37
I think that the scaling is that magic becomes less destructive on higher points totals, right now it can really devastate an army on lower and medium points game, but at higher points it will generally not matter as much. Mostly I think it's fluff reasons though, the winds of magic are as they are and wizards can't influence that to much.

100% agreed. The Game would be stupid if at 2250 you could have a possibility of 18 power dice with the current editions power spells. I like that at higher point levels its more of a infantry meat grinder.

Razhem
19-08-2010, 08:39
Pure laziness.

Occulto
19-08-2010, 08:40
I'd say that by the time you're getting bigger than the 3000 points, you're probably not playing a pickup game and would be more open to house ruling more magic.

Oglog
19-08-2010, 08:48
Yeah, I think Games Workshop have just aimed everything at 2000-3000 points, lazy and too idealistic. I also think that they believe anything above this counts as a legendary or apocolyptic battle, hence the players decide on rules and special scenarios etc. I am led to believe that in the next year or 2 GW will be releasing a similar expansion to 40k's apocolypse for fantasy, which might reslove problems with scaling battles.

xxRavenxx
19-08-2010, 09:05
Presumably they wanted a cap on how many purple suns you can roll across the table?

Adding 100% more men, doesnt mean you should add 100% more wizard. The more you allow to function on the table, the more likely they are to just gang up and start removing entire blocks at a time from the table.

I also imagine, frankly, that GW worked out ballance for between 1 and... 3? thousand points, and just thought "sod it" for higher points. They can't cater for everyone and keep it ballanced.

Scythe
19-08-2010, 09:08
I'd say that by the time you're getting bigger than the 3000 points, you're probably not playing a pickup game and would be more open to house ruling more magic.

Pretty much I think. The system works up to and including 3000 pts, which is the vast mayority of battles out there. If you go 4000 pts or larger, it is easy enough to roll two generation rolls, or apply another house rule.

Bottom line: they kept generation simple and it works for 99% of the games played by people. I actually prefer that to a more complicated scalable system which only brings merit in 1% of the games played. I rather houserule those myself, thank you very much.

Avian
19-08-2010, 09:16
It IS slightly odd that it doesn't scale, given that the original system (http://www.avianon.net/rules/winds_of_magic.php) they based the new rules off of does. I guess the reason is that it's simpler that way.

AndrewGPaul
19-08-2010, 09:32
Huh? The card-driven system in 4th and 5th edition Warhammer was not scaled - you dealt out 2D6 magic cards per phase, regardless of game size.

I'd go and check, but I sold my rulebooks to _toast_; you could ask him, I suppose. :)

theorox
19-08-2010, 09:38
This is exactly how GW intended, they don't want it to scale. Magic should have a smaller effect in larger games, and a bigger one in smaller games. I don't know if i agree, but that's how GW wanted it, it seems. :)

Theo

DaemonReign
19-08-2010, 09:45
Hi guys.
I'm wondering if maybe I am the only one thninking this?

What I mean is, that instead of the Magic Phase being capped at 12 (2D6), regardless of the size of the battle, they did not allow things to be scaled up by an extra D6 (Dispel Dice then equals the two highest of the 3D6) for each 1000pts above 2000pts.

For example:

- Games of 2000pts and below: Current setup
- Games of 2001-3000pts: 3D6 PD generation, Dispel D6 equals the 2 highest D6 of those 3D6 thrown.
- Games of 3001-4000pts: 4D6 PD generation, Dispel D6 equals the 3 highest D6 of those 4D6 thrown.
- etc...

Surely this would allow for more flexibility in list building at larger scale battles, and mean that there would be enough PD/DD for wizards to utilise.

What are people's thoughts?
Ta,
GT

Yes it should scale. Disapointed that it doesn't. Where exactly the levels would be to scale things up is up for debate. I think the 2D6 are fine "up to" 3000 points - given that 6 dice is really all you need to get lucky with in some of these new Lores carrying genocidal spells.

That would be my first critique on your proposed system - that I see little need of scaling things downward, but rather upward (in those battles correctly described as unusual compared to standard sized games).

And you need to add 2 dice if you're gonna scale things up. Like your proposal of "at one point level or another" roll 3D6 and have the Two best dice fall to the dispel pool. Why? Why should the dispel pool be comparatively larger at certain point-sizes of the game? You need to roll either 2, or 4, or 6 d6 at every given juncture.

I don't think that this argument about the winds of magic being a given constant that wizards can't influence holds water at all. One of the few things that were better about 7th compared to 8th was indeed the fact that you could Buy Magic like any other variance of your army. Forego CC, forego shooting, forego everything - and get those 20 power dice.

What we've got now is a magic phase that starts at total mayhem at lower point-levels - yes a well-placed Purple Sun can end the game in round one - and then continues to diminish as the game progresses to Better (my wording for Bigger in the Warhammer context) games. With a fixed 2d6 cap 12 my competative investment into magic-casting/defense remains just as constant whether I am skrimishing at 2-3k or playing a 10k game.

If you could at the very least channel dice and use items to get above that 12-cap there would be some forgiving scale aspect of bigger battles - now all you got (in certain armies, that were already good enough to begin with!) is still like PoD (DE) or Boon of Tzeentch (DoC) that you can trixter with half way through your magic phase in sometimes get lucky.

I don't think GW has been lazy here. I think they have tried to listen to alot of the crap-whining about 7th Ed and tried to think of something new. And I think this ruined more than it solved with these new Lores in mind - so I hope the whining crowd is happy. I'm not dissing the new Lores, I think they're great, what am saying is that 8th's dice generation creates a false sense of balance that doesn't add anything to the game.

Personally I would rather have kept the 7th Ed dice generation. Everything else about the new magic phase is great. Wizards are dangerous and cunning now. They used to be way too volatile.

Vsurma
19-08-2010, 09:53
Hi guys.
I'm wondering if maybe I am the only one thninking this?

What I mean is, that instead of the Magic Phase being capped at 12 (2D6), regardless of the size of the battle, they did not allow things to be scaled up by an extra D6 (Dispel Dice then equals the two highest of the 3D6) for each 1000pts above 2000pts.

For example:

- Games of 2000pts and below: Current setup
- Games of 2001-3000pts: 3D6 PD generation, Dispel D6 equals the 2 highest D6 of those 3D6 thrown.
- Games of 3001-4000pts: 4D6 PD generation, Dispel D6 equals the 3 highest D6 of those 4D6 thrown.
- etc...

Surely this would allow for more flexibility in list building at larger scale battles, and mean that there would be enough PD/DD for wizards to utilise.

What are people's thoughts?
Ta,
GT

Your system does not work, all it does is add dice to cast with but the difference between PD to DD does not scale under your system.

What you have now is 2d6 PD highest DD, so average of 7 PD and 4 DD. Basically allows 1-2 spells through a turn.

At 3d6 and highest 2 DD you get 10-11PD and 8-9DD
4d6 is even worse with 14 average PD and 11-13 DD

You will just end up with 1 extra PD over DD.

Most games are played at 2-3k levels when this current system works.

Scythe
19-08-2010, 10:46
I don't think that this argument about the winds of magic being a given constant that wizards can't influence holds water at all. One of the few things that were better about 7th compared to 8th was indeed the fact that you could Buy Magic like any other variance of your army. Forego CC, forego shooting, forego everything - and get those 20 power dice.

I disagree, that was one of the terrible things in 7th edition. It encouraged an all-or-nothing approach more than anything else. Spend 1000 pts to get the 20 power dice, or spend 100 pts on a scroll caddie. There was no middle ground.

The reason it didn't work is that magic, unlike shooting or movement, is an interactive phase. You cannot stop your opponent from moving or shooting directly (well, apart from killing or engaging his troops). However, you can stop magic in the opponents turn, through dispel rolls. And as magic offense was directly linked to magic defense (wizards generated both power and dispel dice), your magic phase could be shut down completely by any opponent simply investing MORE points that you. The system rewarded you for spamming as much power dice generators as possible, as your power increased exponentially with every extra dice in your power pool, which should never be as such. Take shooting for example: spending a couple of points in shooting can never be shut down by the opponent as such. Spending more gets you more, but spending too much reduces effectiveness of shooting, as you run out of space and good positions. So, spending more points on shooting gradually makes the investment less valuable, unlike the old magic system, were each investment became more valuable. That is just asking for balance problems.

yabbadabba
19-08-2010, 10:55
I am led to believe that in the next year or 2 GW will be releasing a similar expansion to 40k's apocolypse for fantasy, which might reslove problems with scaling battles. This. Bingo, question answered, so its juts a case of house ruling now.

edit: And the reason it doesn't scale down is that GW wants you to play games at 2500-3500

theunwantedbeing
19-08-2010, 10:56
To give tomb kings an advantage over vampires in really massive games?

eyescrossed
19-08-2010, 11:35
TK have a pretty big advantage in team games, too... If you have a Suspicious Alliance with someone then you can get tons of Incantations off and give your teammate all the PD.

Chaos and Evil
19-08-2010, 11:36
What are people's thoughts?
GW wants to sell us an Apocalypse type supplement later on, so they intentionally hobbled the scalability of the core rules system, so that it would require a patch to make it work at larger game sizes. A pretty simple money-making decision, really.

It's either that, or they're crap games designers.

Leggo1927
19-08-2010, 13:14
Maybe just maybe it doesn't scale because they didn't intend magic to be the game winning phase people want it to be, but rather all 4 phases in conjunction. People moan about the Power House spells and the ability to effectively win turn one, but guess what I bet their balanced for 2.5-3G battles and a maximum of 12 power dice.

RanaldLoec
19-08-2010, 13:28
I'd say that by the time you're getting bigger than the 3000 points, you're probably not playing a pickup game and would be more open to house ruling more magic.

BINGO that man or lady wins the cash prize come on down.

Right now I've been cured of Gameshowitess, the new BRB promotes the idea of gamers thinking for them selves and creating there own terrain, rules, units and not slavishly following the rules.

Its kind of like GW treats warhammer as a fun past time for friends to get togther and have fun.

DAMN you games workshop for making me spend countless hours of fun rolling dice and laughing with friends by creating a highly addictive game called warhammer.

DAMN you games workshop for making me log on warseer and whine because I want to agree on some small house rules with my friends when I play a 6000 point game.

DAAAMMMMMNNNNNN YOOOOOUUU A CURSE ON BOTH YOUR GAME SYSTEMS.
:mad:

Please take the above section as its meant to be a little bit of humor. If you playing above 3000 points then just chat with your opponent I'm sure you could come to an agreement as larger games do take time to organise and play it will only take a few minutes to whip up a little temp house rule.

I dont require an apocalypse expansion the BRB I would surggest reading pages 452 to 477 it gives a wonderfull example of gamers having a massive warhammer game creating their own special rules and units to use in the game.

DIY Warhammer give it a go. Go on try it you might like it.

chilledenuff
19-08-2010, 14:06
I'd recommend reading Jervis' article (link elsewhere on warseer)
It partially addresses this point.
I especially like his subtle hints to tourney organizers about 2k games being the right size for tourneys, this might be relevant. It might not.

Me, if I'm playing a big game with someone then I'd discuss whether we were going to roll more dice before the game. Crazy as it seems, but you can talk to your opponent! :D

chivalrous
19-08-2010, 14:32
Huh? The card-driven system in 4th and 5th edition Warhammer was not scaled - you dealt out 2D6 magic cards per phase, regardless of game size.

I'd go and check, but I sold my rulebooks to _toast_; you could ask him, I suppose. :)

If I remember correctly though, each wizard could hold onto a WoM card to use in the following phase, in addition to the 2D6 cards dealt, so in that sense, if you were dealt dispel cards in your magic phase (and weren't Dark Elves*) you could carry them over, conversely if you had power cards in the opponent's magic phase (and weren't High Elves*) you could carry them over into your own phase.

*Dark elves could use dispel cards as power cards; High Elves could use power cards as dispel cards.

yabbadabba
19-08-2010, 14:39
If I remember correctly though, each wizard could hold onto a WoM card to use in the following phase, in addition to the 2D6 cards dealt, so in that sense, if you were dealt dispel cards in your magic phase (and weren't Dark Elves*) you could carry them over, conversely if you had power cards in the opponent's magic phase (and weren't High Elves*) you could carry them over into your own phase.
*Dark elves could use dispel cards as power cards; High Elves could use power cards as dispel cards. Thats right, and one "Drain Magic" card and all those saved cards would float off. Or one "Total Power" card and you end up as a frog.

Lord Malorne
19-08-2010, 14:40
Hi guys.

GT

Because Avian designed the Magic phase, ask him why it is what it is.

Jind_Singh
19-08-2010, 16:49
I played a ton of games at 10,000 points or more in 7th ed - and 7th ed DID NOT scale up either! Sure you had a million power dice, but there were a million dispel dice, scrolls, etc, so magic was a non-event at larger games until much later in the game. Now it's going to be fine as though most of the castors can't do much each turn, you can ensure that the part of the battle line that really needs magical support can do something each turn - call in the air support!
And it's good it doesn't scale up too much - 10,000 points are long to play so a faster magic phase is excellent!

CaliforniaGamer
19-08-2010, 16:57
The OP posted exactly what has been bugging me subconsciously about the magic phase beginning when I first heard the system on this site and felt "something isnt right here."

The current system makes 1-mage lower level point games insane. A level 2 HE/DE mage with the extra spell and access to the brb lores can literally carry an entire army at 1000 points or less.

On the flipside, large games seem broke because the entire magic phase is reduced to a paltry 1-3 spells. Not exactly "legendary battles".

Lord Malorne
19-08-2010, 17:00
Yeah, you have to go Death Magic for more dice, maybe just experimenting with a higher power dice cap could work.

Gaargod
19-08-2010, 17:03
Money.

This system obviously doesn't scale at over 3k. So, when GW release the inevitable Legendary Battles (WHFB apocalypse, in other words), they get to make it now scale. In other words, another reason to buy the book.



Cynic, me?

Duke_Corwin
19-08-2010, 17:19
The current system is scaled for most of the battles that are being played. There is nothing that would prevent players from deciding to scale it up on their own for a really big battle. Conversely they can scale it down for really small battles.

The current system allows pick-up games at 1,500 to 3,000 points or so and tournaments too at these sizes. Also, GW may release the rumored add on book (like apocalypse for 40K) for bigger fantasy battles.

In the meantime if you and your friends want to fight a really big battle with lots of magic just agree to roll more dice for the winds.

chilledenuff
19-08-2010, 17:24
Out of interest, how many points(ish) is the big battle (the one with a 4 page spread) in the back of the ERB?

Lord Dan
19-08-2010, 17:36
Because GW has no forethought. OH and they don't playtest. OH and they don't produce FAQs that resolve problems.

When you make sweeping generalizations based on last years news you just come off a little jaded. 8th edition was extensively playtested. I thought GW showed quite a lot of forethought when they released an FAQ for every army book in production. If that wasn't enough, they turned around 2 weeks later and created a V1.1 FAQ update to clarify the issues created with the 8th edition release. On top of that they put out an FAQ for the new rulebook itself within, what, 2-3 weeks?

I think GW is doing a great job. This clearly isn't the faceless and company of the last couple years, and just because you lost your Deathstar infantry block to the Purple Sun doesn't mean GW is at all lacking in forethought.

EDMM
19-08-2010, 18:18
I think it scales just fine.

In bigger games, if you take a lot of casters, you know beforehand that their casting resources will be limited.

So either take multiple redundant Wizards so you can keep casting as you suffer casualties - Wizards which may be unable to cast effectively until other members of their fraternity have expired - or take only as many Wizards as you think you will be able to make use of immediately, and then suffer heavily as you take casualties from amongst their rank.

I have no problem with this at all.

enygma7
19-08-2010, 19:48
Magic scales OK for a bit - because actually casting the spells is normally pretty easy as you get more wizards you can attempt more spells with less dice, which increases the chances of getting small spells through and reduces your chances of miscasting.

Above 3k you could try splitting each side into seperate armies (large games are normally multiplayer anyway) and rolling as usual - each army gets the indicated number of power and dispel dice. E.g. in a 5000pt game made up of 2 2500pt armies aside you roll 2d6 getting a 5 and 3. Each attacking army gets 8 power dice to use on their own spells and each defending army gets 5 dispel dice. Either army can choose to make a dispel attempt but you can't combine dice from the 2 armies dispel pools. You'd need to adjust this scaling if one or both side includes an army that doesn't cast spells (e.g. if the attacking side was a dwarf army and an empire army you might be better off treating it as just one army per side for generating dice in their magic phase).

goodz
19-08-2010, 19:57
I played a 3000 in which I had 1 level 4 and my opponent had a level 4 (slann) and a level 3 something rather. He was casting 4-5 spells a turn. I had +1 dispell dice, and reroll dispel attempts so i dispelled a lot until my wizard died, but it was a pretty decent magic phase, and imo the mid level spells do enough damage that its hard not to use dispel dice, but if you let the top level spells go off you are in some serious trouble...

He did have some item that gave him +1 dice to every roll which i found really overpowerd as he could cast basically any spell 10 and under on 1 dice but meh so goes magic:P

Other games i have played were smaller, and if anything magic became too powerful at those sizes. If they removed IF alltogether i wouldn't mind it though!

DaemonReign
19-08-2010, 20:57
I disagree, that was one of the terrible things in 7th edition. It encouraged an all-or-nothing approach more than anything else. Spend 1000 pts to get the 20 power dice, or spend 100 pts on a scroll caddie. There was no middle ground.

Perhaps. But at leat you got what you paid for.

I played alot of DoC toward the end of 7th. I tested the "all tzeentch" approach a few times. Nothing but 30-blocks of Horrors for core, nothing but Hots and LoCs - nothing but magic. I don't remember exactly but in a 2 k game the power pool came to about 20.

There were games that were total massacres. With that overwhelming power in the magic phase all you need is a little luck and your opponent starts to dwindle. There were however also games where a couple of miscasts pretty much made my tzeentch-list implode on itself.

So sure there could be said to be a balance problem here. But actually less so than concerning other phases - not just because you can't "dispel" a barrage of shooting, but also because crossbows don't kill your own troops on double-ones. Completely disregarding the magic phase it was possible to field total mismatches in 7th where one could see before turn 1 that "dear lord, this is gonna hurt". Going magic heavy, at least with DoC, was far from the most reliable path to victory - so write the complaints about those 20 PD off as shallow jealousy without any deeper analysis.

In the case of magic, there was a huge element of gamble. This isn't the case anymore, not in the same way, and that'd be the only valid reason i can see for the dice not to scale as much as in 7th. My best argument for a scaling system is, basically, that it's more FUN. Couldn't case less about these illusory notions of balance-issues.

I still miss the fact that you could buy magic point-for-point in 7th. It wasn't the path to total broken domination that people would like to believe - but it did allow for a spicey alternative for army-build to which the door has been all but shut in 8th.

The one army that rested too heavily on the magic phase in 7th was probably VC - and alot of people bitched about this - and look at them now(!) walking side by side with OK down the aisle of Nerfed to Smithereens.

Oh, and this theory about GW prepping the new rules for a patch that deals with bigger battles sounds like a plausible thing. Too bad I want to play those battles right now.

yabbadabba
19-08-2010, 21:01
Oh, and this theory about GW prepping the new rules for a patch that deals with bigger battles sounds like a plausible thing. Too bad I want to play those battles right now.House rule it. The rest of us have been doing that with scanrios, siege, Warhammer Ahoy, large battles etc etc for quite a while now. Why wait for GW?

AndrewGPaul
19-08-2010, 21:02
If I remember correctly though, each wizard could hold onto a WoM card to use in the following phase, in addition to the 2D6 cards dealt, so in that sense, if you were dealt dispel cards in your magic phase (and weren't Dark Elves*) you could carry them over, conversely if you had power cards in the opponent's magic phase (and weren't High Elves*) you could carry them over into your own phase.

*Dark elves could use dispel cards as power cards; High Elves could use power cards as dispel cards.

True. What that has to do with scaling as you increase the points value, I don't see. :)

brynolf
19-08-2010, 23:06
Perhaps. But at leat you got what you paid for.

Actually, only the one spending the most points on magic did. The other guy got very little value for his points. If you spent 1000 points on magic, it mattered little if your enemy spent 100 or 600 points, they were basically wasted.

I agre on the scaling thing though. Should be easy enough to houserule.

TheAmazingAntman
20-08-2010, 01:48
The reason that they didn't create a magic system that scales is so they have an excuse to create an “apocalypse style” expansion for huge games of Warhammer.

If you think they just “forgot” or were too lazy or short sighted you’re insane.

Occulto
20-08-2010, 02:27
I think it scales just fine.

In bigger games, if you take a lot of casters, you know beforehand that their casting resources will be limited.

So either take multiple redundant Wizards so you can keep casting as you suffer casualties - Wizards which may be unable to cast effectively until other members of their fraternity have expired - or take only as many Wizards as you think you will be able to make use of immediately, and then suffer heavily as you take casualties from amongst their rank.

I have no problem with this at all.

I tend to agree.

More wizards means greater chance of boosting your PD with 6s, stops a single failed cast ending your magic phase, and more wizards that need to be killed to shut your magic down completely.

After all, rolling 12PD is a waste if your only wizard fails to cast his first spell. :p

R-Love
20-08-2010, 03:01
Out of interest, how many points(ish) is the big battle (the one with a 4 page spread) in the back of the ERB?

11500 to 7500 (WoC to Empire), before considering all the special units added with no cost listed. I'd guess it would be roughly 15,000 to 10,000 in favour of WoC, though I may be off on that.


Right now I've been cured of Gameshowitess, the new BRB promotes the idea of gamers thinking for them selves and creating there own terrain, rules, units and not slavishly following the rules.

So you stopped slavishly following the rules because the rulebook told you to? :evilgrin:


DAMN you games workshop for making me spend countless hours of fun rolling dice and laughing with friends by creating a highly addictive game called warhammer.

BASTARDS!

DaemonReign
20-08-2010, 03:11
House rule it.

Why naturally! :)

This is at the top of the list when it comes to houserules.

I'm thinking:
0-2999 pts = 2D6
3000-5999 = 4D6
6000-8999 = 6D6

The terrain chart is another thing that needs houserules.Too much crazy stuff going on otherwise.

And a couple of Errata/Faq-blunders on Gw's part that are just ridiculous.

chilledenuff
20-08-2010, 06:41
11500 to 7500 (WoC to Empire), before considering all the special units added with no cost listed. I'd guess it would be roughly 15,000 to 10,000 in favour of WoC, though I may be off on that.

Thanks, I didn't have the book with me at the time. I wonder how they did magic for that? i remember reading it and they'd made up a spell fore the empire fire wizard. Was very cool. Don't think they used a supplement for the game though, just ERB rules with a slight houserules tweak

Scythe
20-08-2010, 07:24
Perhaps. But at leat you got what you paid for.

No you didn't. If I spend 300 pts on 2 lvl 2 wizards in 7th edition, I could just as well throw away my points, as they would be shut down, wether the opponent spend 100 pts on a caddie, or 1000 pts on a 20 power dice list of doom.


I played alot of DoC toward the end of 7th. I tested the "all tzeentch" approach a few times. Nothing but 30-blocks of Horrors for core, nothing but Hots and LoCs - nothing but magic. I don't remember exactly but in a 2 k game the power pool came to about 20.

There were games that were total massacres. With that overwhelming power in the magic phase all you need is a little luck and your opponent starts to dwindle. There were however also games where a couple of miscasts pretty much made my tzeentch-list implode on itself.

I'd like to see how, honestly. The 7th edition miscast chart was a breeze compared to the current one. But essentially you are arguing here that going all-out on magic netted you total massacres, except for those few times you rolled bad, got unlucky, and got miscasts. How can this ever be a positive thing?


So sure there could be said to be a balance problem here. But actually less so than concerning other phases - not just because you can't "dispel" a barrage of shooting, but also because crossbows don't kill your own troops on double-ones. Completely disregarding the magic phase it was possible to field total mismatches in 7th where one could see before turn 1 that "dear lord, this is gonna hurt". Going magic heavy, at least with DoC, was far from the most reliable path to victory - so write the complaints about those 20 PD off as shallow jealousy without any deeper analysis.

The chances of a miscast on 2-3 casting dice in 7th edition were considerably smaller than the chances of rolling a misfire for your war machine. I understand you are kind of sad your 20 power dice Tzeentch Daemon from hell list got, quite rightfully, nerfed, but you are holding to straws. There was a reason magic heavy DoC and VC armies dominated the tournament scene last edition, and it was not because their magic was so unreliable.


In the case of magic, there was a huge element of gamble. This isn't the case anymore, not in the same way,

How? Casting a spell still has the risk of horribly backfiring, and your lvl4 wizard might be stuck with a bad dice generation roll. If anything, magic became a lot more unreliable, which is as it should be imho.


and that'd be the only valid reason i can see for the dice not to scale as much as in 7th. My best argument for a scaling system is, basically, that it's more FUN. Couldn't case less about these illusory notions of balance-issues.

Everyone their own, but having played with and against 15 power dice of doom lists in 7th edition, I can say they are far from my own definition of fun. More like a waste of time.


I still miss the fact that you could buy magic point-for-point in 7th. It wasn't the path to total broken domination that people would like to believe - but it did allow for a spicey alternative for army-build to which the door has been all but shut in 8th.

And that's why Lizardmen and High Elf magic heavy armies are such a horrible choice in 8th edition? It is still possible to go magic heavy quite effectively. You just can't spam your mages anymore and crush your opponent by seer weight of numbers; it requires a more subtle approach.


The one army that rested too heavily on the magic phase in 7th was probably VC - and alot of people bitched about this - and look at them now(!) walking side by side with OK down the aisle of Nerfed to Smithereens.

There were other problems with the VC book, like autobreaking from fear causers. They have been hit hard, but they still have a few ticks up their sleeves. Main problem is their core is so incredibly overpriced compared to other armies now, but they will manage until their book gets redone.


Oh, and this theory about GW prepping the new rules for a patch that deals with bigger battles sounds like a plausible thing. Too bad I want to play those battles right now.

Try house rules. It is not that hard, and even encouraged in the book.

chilledenuff
20-08-2010, 08:37
Why naturally! :)

This is at the top of the list when it comes to houserules.

I'm thinking:
0-2999 pts = 2D6
3000-5999 = 4D6
6000-8999 = 6D6



This is simalar to the BRB's suggestion on page 142 (i think, don't have the book with me to confirm:() I don't think the numbers are the same though, think they suggest 1d6 at 1k or less though

Haravikk
20-08-2010, 08:53
While I do think it should scale, I'm more inclined to say that it shouldn't go above 3D6 for a 3,000 points or higher, and should actually be just a single D6 for the ~1,000 points mark.

2D6 is a good number in larger games as it really reigns in the silly magic users and keeps focus on the new infantry + support mechanic which I love.

Commissar Vaughn
20-08-2010, 16:53
2D6 is a good number in larger games as it really reigns in the silly magic users and keeps focus on the new infantry + support mechanic which I love.

I agree, up to 3k 2d6 is fine. Over maybe 4k roll 3d6 and pick the two highest or something.

Somebody mentioned 4d6 in a 3k game: no chance! Im quite happy with 2 level 2 wizards (Jade and Grey) at 3k, I much prefer lots of regiments on the table than a couple of level 4 chumps throwing nukes at each other. 'Tis unsporting!

VetSgtSchaeffer
20-08-2010, 21:27
I personally feel that magic scales fine because alot of the spells tend to have greater effect on larger units that show up in bigger games. Not to mention bigger games allow more characters and thus more items to boost your magic.