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NashTrickster
19-08-2010, 10:05
I've been looking into the several threads already posted here about the order of the Primarchs' discoveries (and some on other boards that these threads linked to) but unfortunately these threads don't give their exact sources and I'd rather be able to "check myself"...

I've tried and managed to locate most of these sources myself but some are eluding me... That's where I need your help guys!


1) Can you point me to (one of) the source(s) (book and page) that states Horus was the first rediscovered? Also there is, according to some posts I read, a source pointing to the fact that 3 decades went by before the next Primarch was found, can anyone tell me where?

2) I've read numerous times in those threads that Mortarion was found before Curze, but can't find the source for that info... Anyone know where that comes from? (book and page would be perfect!)

3) I've read that Call of the Lion in Tales of Heresy pointed to the Lion being found before Russ, but failed in my skimming of the story to find this info... Anyone knows where (page) it's supposed to be?

4) In that same book, but in After Desh'ea, there is supposedly an info that suggest Guilliman was found before Angron... While I found on p.406 a line that suggests Perturabo was found before Guilliman, I failed to find anything suggesting the Ultras were reunited with their Primarch before the World Eaters were... So, is that bit of info a case of "too much speculation" from some readers or did I miss something? (And if I did miss something, on which page?)

5) Also, as I don't have Fulgrim handy right now, I can't check myself, so if you could help me by giving me the page(s) on which it is suggested that Ferrus was found before Fulgrim, the page on which the age of the weapon Ferrus forged for Vulkan is stated and the page on which the age of Fulgrim's flagship is stated, it would help me greatly...


Thanks in advance for any help you can bring!

Erm... *bump*

No one is willing and able to help me?

I really need that info asap and unfortunately don't have my whole Warhammer 40000 (http://ultim-40k.forum2jeux.com/forum.htm) Library at hand. Please guys!

narrativium
20-08-2010, 10:53
I'd help, but I don't have my collection to hand either. Offhand I'd suggest that you want Horus Rising for question one: somewhere in I think the pages 350+ Horus, Sanguinius, Aximand and Loken are talking and Horus describes his relationship with the Emperor prior to the discovery of his brothers.

Offhand I can't tell you where in Fulgrim you'd find the details of that first meeting - probably the start of the second section, as that's when the Iron Hands come into the story - but I can tell you that Fulgrim was found first, as the first meeting is on Ferrus's homeworld and they bond forging weapons for each other before Ferrus joins his Legion.

The rest I'd have to spend some time on, but I'm at work at the moment...

Lord Damocles
20-08-2010, 17:29
There was an excellent post on Bolter & Chainsword some time ago (which was linked to from Warseer, but I'll be damned if I can find it now...) which took all of the available information on the Primarchs (which was a LOT) - including quotes - and established a timeline for them being found.

Asking around on B&C might get some results.

Ron Burgundy
20-08-2010, 21:52
5) Also, as I don't have Fulgrim handy right now, I can't check myself, so if you could help me by giving me the page(s) on which it is suggested that Ferrus was found before Fulgrim, the page on which the age of the weapon Ferrus forged for Vulkan is stated and the page on which the age of Fulgrim's flagship is stated, it would help me greatly...


I handily (or sadly) have this info in a spreadsheet, not the other stuff though, sorry.

Ferrus and Fulgrim's meeting - Fulgrim p.127
- It's on Terra (beneath the Urals, in the forges of some guys who took part in the Unification Wars).
- Not made clear who was first; possible implication Ferrus is more recently found as he is demonstrating his smithery skill to Terra's premier smiths and Fulgrim already has Phoenix Guard (so he's not fresh off the boat, he's organised the EC). YMMV with that tho.

Fulgrim's flagship - page 29
- Begins construction 160 years ago (approx.40+ years into the GC)
- Designed and built specifically for Fulgrim.

The Ferrum - page 112
- Named after Ferrus Manus.
- Goes active service "a century and a half" ago (approx.50+ years into the GC)

Vulkan's weapon - page 378
- Built by Ferrus Manus for Vulkan "200 years ago" before Vulkan led the Salamaders on crusade
- This would be a scant (approx) 5 or 6 years into the GC, totally rubbishing the 'Horus was the only primarch for 30 years' thing.

200 years ago - Ferrus makes a weapon for Vulkan.
200 years ago - Ferrus and Fulgrim meet.
160 years ago - Fulgrim's flagship laid down.
150 years ago - Ferrus has a newly built ship named after him.

Fulgrim and Ferrus possibly found very close together (one after the other); they're close but in a generic 'bonded through circumstance and a shared interest'way, not through personality or belief, the kind of thing you get when you meet a stranger in a new environment and are happy when you make a connection. This would also tie in to ships being built for/named for them around the same time. Lastly, 40-50 years into the GC is a good time for them to be found if Horus was the only Primarch for 30 years. The 200 years ago thing is a right pain.
Vulkan was also an early Primarch, regardless.

Bonus content: IIRC, the HH books give us this order so far:
Horus
...
Fulgrim/Ferrus/Vulkan
...
Magnus
...
Lion
...
Alpharius

Khan before Lion, Dorn is 7th found, Pertuarbo before Angron. That's all I can remember.

NashTrickster
21-08-2010, 08:57
@Lord Damocles: I've checked on the B&C but without result.

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Thanks a lot Ron...

I have all that "bonus content" you added, I just didn't post it because I managed to find the sources of these by myself ;)

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So, that does it with point number 5...

Still need help with the 4 first points though. Anyone?

Lupe
21-08-2010, 09:41
1. "It is thought that he [Horus] was the first of the primarchs to be recovered by the Emperor. As a result, Horus was for many years the Emperor's only son, and there was a great affinity between them" - Index Astartes - Sons of Horus

NashTrickster
21-08-2010, 14:28
Well, thanks Lupe, but "It is thought..." isn't the same as "He was found first."

From what I gathered there must be at least one other source where it is stated more definitely that he was found first and that he remained "alone" with his father for 30 years... Since I don't have my HH books handy I can't check myself but I believe it can be in Horus Rising...

narrativium
21-08-2010, 18:30
Page 201 of False Gods. Horus describes his first three decades with the Emperor. He doesn't say who came next.

Karanthir
22-08-2010, 14:14
4) In that same book, but in After Desh'ea, there is supposedly an info that suggest Guilliman was found before Angron... While I found on p.406 a line that suggests Perturabo was found before Guilliman, I failed to find anything suggesting the Ultras were reunited with their Primarch before the World Eaters were... So, is that bit of info a case of "too much speculation" from some readers or did I miss something? (And if I did miss something, on which page?)


After Desh'ea is explicit on Perturabo being discovered before Angron ("One of the first we found" in fact!). The rest I imagine would be speculation.

a) When Kharn is telling the story of Perturabo's discovery he refers to the Ultramarines rather than the XIII Legion. The implication there could be that Guilliman had already been discovered and named his legion.

b) In the same paragraph he refers to the Iron Warriors as the Iron Warriors, so he could have altered the story in light of the legions being named after the event.

c) "We envied them. They had found their blood-sire and their general." (In reference to the Iron Warriors) So, does "we" refer to just the War Hounds, or to them and the Ultramarines?

Basically there is nothing concrete on when Guilliman was discovered in relation to Angron and Perturabo.

All this is from Tales of Heresy p. 406

Lupe
22-08-2010, 21:01
c) "We envied them. They had found their blood-sire and their general." (In reference to the Iron Warriors) So, does "we" refer to just the War Hounds, or to them and the Ultramarines?


Probably the latter. At leat, that's how I read into it. The envy is reserved for the Iron Warriors. Had the Ultramarines been reunited with their primarch, the War Hounds would have used the plural (i.e "their blood-sires and their generals"). If fighting alongside one primarch was deemed impressive enough to be remembered, fighting alongside two would have been doubly so.

Brother Siccarius
23-08-2010, 08:29
Well, thanks Lupe, but "It is thought..." isn't the same as "He was found first."

From what I gathered there must be at least one other source where it is stated more definitely that he was found first and that he remained "alone" with his father for 30 years... Since I don't have my HH books handy I can't check myself but I believe it can be in Horus Rising...

None of it is definite. Even the HH books, though narrated as a definitive source, are not more factual than anything else.

I'd also point out that the framework for the HH books is the Index Astartes Articles.

NashTrickster
23-08-2010, 14:53
Thanks narrativium, that answers (at least part of) question 1...

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Thanks Karanthir, I didn't realize some people read "that much" into the sentence of p.406... And that answers question 4.

=======


None of it is definite. Even the HH books, though narrated as a definitive source, are not more factual than anything else."Stated definitely" means it says "Horus was the first to be found" (or any other sentence that leaves no doubt about it) rather than "He is thought to have been found first..." which is clearly not stated in any definitive manner...
I won't take into account the "factuality" of the books contents since we all know the position of GW on that subjet.

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So anyone can help as far as the "Mortarion before Curze" and "Lion before Russ" ones are concerned?

Karanthir
23-08-2010, 17:28
Probably the latter. At leat, that's how I read into it. The envy is reserved for the Iron Warriors. Had the Ultramarines been reunited with their primarch, the War Hounds would have used the plural (i.e "their blood-sires and their generals"). If fighting alongside one primarch was deemed impressive enough to be remembered, fighting alongside two would have been doubly so.

I agree tbh. When Black Library/GW are keeping things vague, though, there's nothing wrong with presenting multiple interpretations.

Part of me wishes they'd just give a list for the order of discovery, but another part of me knows I'd have issue with it :rolleyes: