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View Full Version : Are temple guard now to risky to take with a slaan.



Fay_Redd
19-08-2010, 11:20
Hi all.

So I'm thinking, what with the new miscast table being horrifically evil, Is the slaan/temple guard combo now too risky? I discovered this the other day when my slaan miscast with the small template and killed 10 of his temple guard.

Yes, i know theres throne of vines in the Lore of Life, but, is it now better to outfit the slaan to survive on his own, outside of units. An idea is as follows.

Only Magical attacks have any effect upon a slaan Discipline, Divine plaque of protection for 2+ ward against all ranged attacks and maybe Aura of Quetzl for -1 to hit the slaan in combat, make him a BSB and give him Sun Standard of Chotec aswell so the enemy suffer negatives at range to boot.

what do you think guys?

Vaiuri
19-08-2010, 11:22
I never field a solo Slann on his own. There are a few ways to avoid a miscast with Slann and if you go for LoL you can bring any casualties back anyway :)

Curufew
19-08-2010, 11:25
Ya I think it is. In a recent game against my friend's lizzies, the slann that the Temple guard was protecting had a big template miscast result. 17 out of 20 Temple Guard died and the Slann himself was pulled into the warp.

Fay_Redd
19-08-2010, 11:32
You can make a slaan almost invulnerable to everything for relatively cheap, maybe i will try it at some point, we'll see how my game goes today i guess. 1st time using LoL today so we'll see how it goes.

Odin
19-08-2010, 11:40
There are ways to make a Solo Slann virtually invulnerable, and also ways to make a Slann with Temple Guard virtually immune to miscasts. Either seems a valid option to me.

Slyphor
19-08-2010, 13:59
A guy at my club seems to do very well with a flying ethereal Slann (magic carpet, higher state of consciousness). However, I want my general/BSB combo holding my line together in the middle. The number of points that unit costs, you're finished if the Slann dies, but you can bring everyone else back to life (as Vaiuri says).

freddieyu
19-08-2010, 14:36
Ya I think it is. In a recent game against my friend's lizzies, the slann that the Temple guard was protecting had a big template miscast result. 17 out of 20 Temple Guard died and the Slann himself was pulled into the warp.

I take he didnt equip the frog with cupped hands of the old one item...

Grey Hunter 88
19-08-2010, 14:40
The Slaan can be made almost invulnerable to attacks, but he can't be made immune to breaking can he?

Last game against my buddies lizardmen I cornered and killed his Temple Guard to a man (With Cold-blooded Stubburn LD 9 and a BSB there's no other way around it), and then King Zora decided to hightail it and run. Being the BSB he just croaks (hehehe) automatically.

That would be my fear with a lone Slaan. Fair enough that without outnumbering in 8th, and immune to attacks, he can survive battles with small units, but if they've got skirmishers or fast cav with a standard, he might be in trouble.

Gorbad Ironclaw
19-08-2010, 15:30
but, is it now better to outfit the slaan to survive on his own, outside of units.

Wasn't this always the better idea? Certainly the majority of Slanns I've seen have been on there own, of if they were with a unit it was Saurus Warriors so you had the option if you wanted to be there or not. I think I've seen the Slann+Temple Guards all of once.

Khal
19-08-2010, 16:08
I played against lizardmen yesterday. He had a Slann+18 templeguard. First turn, he miscasts and 12 of those templeguards die. Two turns later, they were 18 again, but I charged him with my khornate warriors with halberds and a hero. Only one or two survived and then he fled.

That wouldn't have happened if he was outside the unit, because I had no real chance to charge him...

Gaargod
19-08-2010, 16:16
Really? In 7th, the more competitve armies almost always featured slann with TG.


To be honest, Lone Slann got a LOT better with the carpet. You can now avoid combats fairly easily, put your Ld9 BSB bubble wherever it needs to be and get range/los easily.
Moreover: BSB, cupped hands, arabyan carpet, higher state, focused ruminatio nand focus of mystery = 495pts. Very convenient for 2k! He should survive most stuff, with uber spells and magical shooting being the only issue (but uber spells are going to get you anyways, and magical shooting quickly dies to, say, lore of death? :D)

That's not to say TG+Slann doesn't work. Cupped Hands + Throne of Vines = win (if you're taking Slann with TG, may as well take life to be honest). Remember, its your turn so you can decide what order stuff happens - in other words, see what miscast it is. If you'd like to transfer it, use cupped hands. If not, throne of vines it (and cupped hands as backup).
The 'oh crap, my unit just disappeared' scenario should be very rare with a slann.



Arguing that the unit will be the target of every genocidal uberspell ever... You may have a point there.

Fay_Redd
20-08-2010, 09:55
@Gaargod, I like that set-up. May have to test it out. Thanks all for adding your thoughts on this matter, i can see it's fairly evenly fought on both sides.

Leth Shyish'phak
20-08-2010, 13:59
I used a lone Slann all through the 7th edition book, he died 3 times. Never to warmachines or other shooting.

How he died:
* Was in a unit of Saurus that got flank charged and beaten horribly (my first game of the new army book, he never entered a unit again).
* Brass Orb to the face in the last turn when I forgot to save dice to dispel Skitterleap.
* A Dragon landed next to him, failed terror test, failed to rally, ran off the board.

He has since been shot at, had spells cast at him and been charged by many fast moving units looking for an easy kill. He laughs at it all. :evilgrin: Mostly this has just been with the Divine Plaque of Protection, occasionally he had Regeneration too (not anymore :rolleyes:).

This is what I'm going to use in my 2500 points game tomorrow:

Slann - bsb, focus of mystery, the focused rumination, the becalming cogitation, soul of stone, book of ashur, divine plaque of protection, standard of discipline, lore of light - 565 points

I expect that he will continue to survive. :)

chilledenuff
20-08-2010, 14:05
@ Leth Shyish'phak, what about 2k games? will you be fielding him then, and if so how are you going to tone him down to a) fit, and b) be just as indestructable?

Malorian
20-08-2010, 14:10
Taking cupped hands or soul stone will greatly reduce the risk, as will not throwing crazy amount of dice at a spell ;)

For me the real problem with temple guard is that they aren't as solid as they once were in combat. It used to be their high static res and 2+ save meant the enemy would just run away, but now we are seeing temple guard being forced to use halberds and being killed off at an alarming rate.

Leth Shyish'phak
20-08-2010, 14:49
@ Leth Shyish'phak, what about 2k games? will you be fielding him then, and if so how are you going to tone him down to a) fit, and b) be just as indestructable?

My group don't really play anything less than 3K, this game was arranged in advance because I don't have enough Lizardmen yet. :)

But if I had to do 2K, I'd just drop the Book of Ashur.

Heimagoblin
20-08-2010, 14:58
Its very easy to keep him and his tg safe. Just take cuped hands and lore of life. Cast sensibly and you will do great. My slann has never actually had a proper miscast!

Vaiuri
20-08-2010, 16:28
I've played a lot of games now with a LoL Slann in 20 TG. That unit hasnt broken once, the Slann has never taken a single wound and he has NEVER suffered the effects of a miscast.

This is because of several things:

The unit has never been ganged up on, so the TG have never really been in a tough fight. I flank it with Saurus either side whenever I can and throw LoL buffs around where needed.

When that unit is in cc it gets buffed to high heaven (toughness 8 saurus anyone?) - they happily stand toe to toe with Khornate Warriors no problems.

They never run away, Ld9 with a reroll from the Slann being a BSB.

Any miscasts I've had have been ignored though Throne of Vines (my Slann is aways a Loremaster of LoL) or transferred with the Cupped Hands.

I've never lost so many TG the Slann has seen combat and I've been lucky enough that my opponents haven't jobbed him with cannons/stone throwers. A 4+ Ward save is a beautiful thing.



Perhaps I've been lucky, but I like the stability of having my Slann in the middle of the battle line throwing buffs around to make my Saurus really horrible. If I find myself twiddling my thumbs with his I have a Skink or two with LoH to fall back on.

I see the attraction of the flying Death Slann, but I wouldnt field him on his own. I also really like Temple Guard ^^

I think the answer to this one is that its simply down to personal tastes and preferance. Try both set-ups and see what you enjoy the most.

diggerydoom
21-08-2010, 09:54
I to have been using the slann in temple guard-he has killed a few of his own guys (in one memorable battle I worked out that 24 temple guard had died-with 12 left on the board out of a unit of 16, only 9 where from the slann though). I have not even been taking cupped hands!

One point to mention though- you have to use throne of vines before cupped hands, and when it is in play ToV automatically tries to stop the miscast (unless you want to risk ending it to transfer the miscast).

Rajhald
22-08-2010, 06:12
diggery,

I was under the assumption that the player could choose which to use. Is there a place in the rule book where it says otherwise? I've been looking for a minute and can't find anything.

appreciate the help.

eyescrossed
22-08-2010, 08:23
diggery,

I was under the assumption that the player could choose which to use. Is there a place in the rule book where it says otherwise? I've been looking for a minute and can't find anything.

appreciate the help.

Read the wording of Throne of Vines, maybe?

diggerydoom
22-08-2010, 10:42
Read the wording of Throne of Vines, maybe?

Indeed-

"Whilst the spell is in effect, every time the wizard miscasts, roll a dice. On a 2+, the miscat is ignored"

There is no element of choice there-it is compulsory. Therefore you have to use the ToV roll first. If this is failed then cupped hands can kick in. You can of course end remains in play at any time, so you could risk dropping ToV when you miscast and using cupped hands. However the only time I took Cupped Hands I tried this and blew up the temple guard...

Kirasu
23-08-2010, 01:26
I only run temple guard if im using shadow or life because those two lores protect from miscasts blowing up your units.

With life I tend to run stegadons and with shadow I put in more salamanders + skinks. Temple guard anchor the middle

Whaagnomore
23-08-2010, 01:40
I tried out the "Flying Frog" a while ago, it's priceless if you use Lore of Death what with the short range of spells, placed my Slaan on the far side of a battleline against my bro's empire army, Cast augmented purple sun, and let me tell you... enough people died to fill up my dicepool again (because of the attribute).

Vsurma
23-08-2010, 06:09
Really? In 7th, the more competitve armies almost always featured slann with TG.


To be honest, Lone Slann got a LOT better with the carpet. You can now avoid combats fairly easily, put your Ld9 BSB bubble wherever it needs to be and get range/los easily.
Moreover: BSB, cupped hands, arabyan carpet, higher state, focused ruminatio nand focus of mystery = 495pts. Very convenient for 2k! He should survive most stuff, with uber spells and magical shooting being the only issue (but uber spells are going to get you anyways, and magical shooting quickly dies to, say, lore of death? :D)

That's not to say TG+Slann doesn't work. Cupped Hands + Throne of Vines = win (if you're taking Slann with TG, may as well take life to be honest). Remember, its your turn so you can decide what order stuff happens - in other words, see what miscast it is. If you'd like to transfer it, use cupped hands. If not, throne of vines it (and cupped hands as backup).
The 'oh crap, my unit just disappeared' scenario should be very rare with a slann.



Arguing that the unit will be the target of every genocidal uberspell ever... You may have a point there.

I am not sure you can decide actually, with cupped hands you can decide if you will use it or not but the throne of vines merely says that after a miscast occurs you ignore it on a 2+.

The faq only says the following:
Q. There are several items that can affect miscasts, such as Cupped
Hands of the Old Ones, Soul of Stone and Infernal Puppet. In what
order should the effects be applied? (p102)
A. The player whose turn is taking place chooses.

So seeing as the throne of vines is in no way vague I am not sure you can take the above to ignore its use.

I just came from a 5 day tournament and I ran a unit of 20 TG with a slann, rumination, mystery, cognition, cupped hands, bane head, dicipline banner, TG had full command, banner of flame and the champ had the speed potion.

The unit did great, the only time it died was when my skaven opponent cast 2 irresistible skaven 13 spells at the unit and I forgot I had cognition.

A unit of ogre ironguts with bruiser and tyrant came close until I started healing the unit.

The unit is really really tough, with the lore of life you can give them a 4+ regen with 1 power dice, the +2/4 T and the resurrection spell also keep them alive.

I always felt safe with the slann, it does however have 1 weakness, pit of shades and purple sun both decimate the unit but the slann gets look out sir rolls and the caster generally has to be within 24" so cognition works. (average move for purple sun is only 16.5" and if you want to hit more than 2-3 models with pit you have to come within 24" of the slann.

Dwellers below however does not have this problem, at least not on the first turn, with players being allowed to measure distances whenever they want, the casting player can place his/her mage within 24" of the unit but NOT within 24" of the slann, since the slann sits in the 2nd rank.

This means they can roll 6 dice at a spell and hope for that irresistible force while being 1" away from your cognition radius.

This happened to my slann and templeguard unit, I lost 6 temple guard and luckily passed my test but it could have been the end of my slann on turn 1. This is less likely to happen to a flying slann.

Another benefit of the TG slann is it can add another banner to the unit. Having 2 magical banners is really nice, especially since some of the cheap ones are so good. I only spent 25pts and I had banner of dicipline and the flaming banner.

I also like huanchi to get critical charges.

Anyone still using skink/krox. I used to run small units of 11+krox for 118pts with a banner and musician. This tournament I tried larger units of 16+2 krox for like 210pts with full command. They really did not work too well, their speed was nice but that was about it.

Last edition you could get flank charges and not get hit back but now not only does the enemy hit back on the flank, they will turn around to face you the turn after. I feel I will be dropping them for sure. My units cost as much as a younger steg and really didn't do much.


As to whether the slann is too risky in a unit of TG it really depends, I have lost entire games due to a miscast, so personally i wouldn't take the slann in a unit of templeguard unless I was taking cupped hands AND lore of life.

Throne of vines is always the first spell I cast and if I don't have it on I will not throw more than 3 dice at any spell. Luckily all the spells have low casting values, almost all can be cast with 2 dice, resurection needs 3 and dwellers needs 4-6. I just don't cast dwellers if I don't have TOV still active or the cupped hands still in use.

Btw the banehead was insanely good!!!!!!!!! I had dropped it earlier due to the lore of life not really having any damage spells (though awakening of the wood is great with TOV) but since it works with miscasts its crazy! normally I target a lv2 mage, this means that almost always if I miscast the enemy loses a lv2 mage (they never have ward saves) occasionally I will also target a lv4.

In 1 of my games against empire the empire mage threw 6 dice at dwellers onto my slann unit, he took 1 wound from the miscast, in my turn I throw 6 dice also, I also miscast and transfer it to the mage, turns out the mage was immune to characteristic tests (like dwellers) so didn't test for that but took 2 wounds from my miscast and died.

Others have mentioned feedback scroll and banehead as a good combo but I certainly did well with my cupped hands. I killed at least 3 mages (5 games) with my miscasts during the tournament. 1 lord and 2 lv2s. 1 of the lv 2s was a 4 wound ogre caster on full wounds (he used hellheart to make me miscast on any double with the ogre chart, he ended up taking d6*2 wounds, so 12 in our case)

The combo will really mess up those WOC puppet players as well.