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Mike_the_magi
19-08-2010, 21:11
Hello!

I have a few questions about Eldar Technology, Aspect Warriors and the Craftworld of Altansar. Thier dissappearence more or less just after the fall makes things a little interesting when it comes to such things. So here goes...

1.) Were the Aspect Shrines developed before or after the Craftworld of Altansar dissappeared into the Eye of Terror?

I have been reading a little into it, and various pages within the Eldar codex seem to suggest different things. It says that the Pheonix lords are the ones who first set up the Aspect Shrines and Maugan Ra wasn't one until he left Altansar, But then in his Entry it says he was the Foremost Exarch of the Dark Reaper Shrine. So which is it?



2.) What is Eldar Technical development like?

I don't know anything about this, but would vehicles and weaponary be the same as the other craftworlds, or would they of had independant weapons development in the ten thousand years they were stranded in the Eye of Terror.



3.) If the Craftworld of Altansar didn't have aspect warriors what would they have?

I assume they would have something equivilent, as after all the Eye of Terror is a dangerous place. I am thinking something like warrior kindreds respecting the values and traits of the Dead eldar gods.


4.) Would living in the Eye of Terror had affected their tech in anyway, after all it is psuedo Organic?

well what it says on the tin really.... would living in the Eye of Terror with that much exposure to the warp affect wraithbone? Is there any precedant for it?


Well thats all my questions for now! Have fun

Scalebug
19-08-2010, 22:02
1) Hmm... Don't think it has been put in definitive black and white anywhere, both before and after the actuall fall are plausible guesses; The Aspects are part of the whole Path system put in place by those Eldar who didn't agree with the degeneration of their society...

i)... but it could have been developed as they left and realised that they needed something to control themselves, or they would decend just like the ones they left behind, and warriors would be needed out in the wilderness space outside of the Eldar Empire, to fight barbarians like ORks, Humans and others...

ii)... or they could have developed the paths and Aspects while still on the Eldar homeworlds, to defend themselves against hordes of crazed serial-killer pleasure cultists, and only afterwards realising that it would not be enough, and converting their huge trading ships into the craftworlds and leaving.

2) Again, nothing canon available, but if we choose to look at (various editions) actual game pieces and drawing conclusions from that, we find that The Exodites (who left first) are (/were, they really only had rules in 2nd Ed and a little bit of Epic) are armed with laser weaponry, and the Craftworlders have shuriken weapons as standard, while hte Dark Eldar guns are based on shooting crystal splinters... so unless the Dark Eldar eshew shuriken guns merely for being less evil than splinterrifles, we can guess those were developed post-fall.

3-4) The short descriptions there is of Altansar warriors in the ending of hte Eye of Terror campaign seems to put them as pretty much different from manstream Eldar, even hinting at them being outright ghosts... But as not much has been mentioned more than that, it is impossible to say...

Col. Tartleton
19-08-2010, 22:03
Maugan Ra is his own father. Thus he was the Dark Reaper before he learned how and had trained others before he himself had been trained in the ways of Khaine by Asurmen.

Eldar can't invent anything. They're like the Imperium. They're forgetting how to make things too... they're going off million year old stuff their ancestors built to last. They can make things but its mostly going off old knowledge and their own artistic flairs. Their peak was millenniums ago. On the plus side they've forgotten more then we can ever learn. They're that sort of Eldritch Horror.

Altansar would have Guardians who are (despite what the Codex portrays) somewhere between a Guard Veteran and a Marine just off of natural talent. When they train as Aspects they become as good or better then Marines but Eldar are a finite resource because their souls are in jeopardy while Marines are only limited by the Imperium's fear and respect of them.

I don't think the warp has had any effect on them except made them into a race of embittered survivors among a species of embittered survivors.

In short. They're well trained, well armed, and angry to boot.

Scalebug
19-08-2010, 22:13
...but that is based on what?

I'm not sure you need both hands to count on your fingers the numbers of canon sentences written about Althansar and its warriors...

Kage2020
19-08-2010, 22:20
Eldar can't invent anything.
I call "BS" on that one in terms of anything but the setting. In terms of the setting it's meant to be that: set in stone. This doesn't mean that the Eldar don't "invent" anything, just that as soon as you introduce time into the timeline, it screws with the setting and, well, you get this kind of response.

Not that it's wrong, just limited by the setting. :D

Kage

Poseidal
20-08-2010, 16:02
Eldar have invented wraithguard/lords, soulstones (for use of preservation), certain engines of war and some aspects post fall.

Remember that invention isn't some lightbulb that something completely creative or new comes from. Invention generally comes from using something existing to do something novel, or copying nature.

Plebian
21-08-2010, 07:50
According to Gav Thorpes new novel, the shrines were formed post fall, as Karandras was one of the 'lost boys' that survived the fall.

vaul_the_smith
21-08-2010, 10:07
1. Its open to interpretation but they're often only referred to as being on craftworlds, however seeing as the craftworlds are the survivors from different Eldar worlds its possible they could have been brought with them.

2.The Eldar seem to be fairly conservative but they're more likely to start adopting some weapons from the likes of the Imperium. I can remember 2nd edition units of guardians with lasguns, plasma guns, flamers, las pistols etc.

3. Its likely they would have had both but what with Maugan Ra originating from Altansar i guess you could assume they'd have a lot of dark reapers?

4. I guess its possible, you gotta love how open ended GW leave everything ;)

Balgora
21-08-2010, 11:08
I call "BS" on that one in terms of anything but the setting. In terms of the setting it's meant to be that: set in stone. This doesn't mean that the Eldar don't "invent" anything, just that as soon as you introduce time into the timeline, it screws with the setting and, well, you get this kind of response.

Not that it's wrong, just limited by the setting. :D

Kage

aye that's pretty true, and anything you add to any army is going to be somehow crowbarred into being used during the heresy or in the last year before we hit the next millenium, kinda an innate drawback to putting time on hold but continuing to add new units.

Idaan
21-08-2010, 14:06
1.) Were the Aspect Shrines developed before or after the Craftworld of Altansar dissappeared into the Eye of Terror?

I have been reading a little into it, and various pages within the Eldar codex seem to suggest different things. It says that the Pheonix lords are the ones who first set up the Aspect Shrines and Maugan Ra wasn't one until he left Altansar, But then in his Entry it says he was the Foremost Exarch of the Dark Reaper Shrine. So which is it?


All Phoenix Lords are Exarchs. Not all Exarchs are Phoenix Lords. The difference is in the level of power (and the size of soul gestalts) and the fact that the PL have no shrines. Maugan Ra was an Aspect Warrior when he trained under Asurmen, then became an Exarch and started the first Dark Reaper shrine, and then a Phoenix Lord when Altansar was lost and he was doomed to wander the Webway forever.

Altansar was lost about 500 years after the Fall, and the Path was started after the Fall when Asurmen and his followers settled on a barren world somewhere and built the Shrine of Asur.

Isariel
21-08-2010, 14:31
Further to Poseidal's post regarding the second question, in the Vyper entry in the 4th Edition Eldar Codex (p.41) it states that the Vyper was 'originally pioneered by the artisans of Saim-Hann craftworld'. This provides firm evidence that the Eldar are capable of (at the very least) designing new vehicles.

Shamana
21-08-2010, 22:17
I think the Aspect warriors are more fixed in their gear (although there have been a few changes with that, supposedly) because it is part ceremonial as well. Aspect Warriors aren't just the Eldar elite troops, they are also religious cults, venerating Khaine in one of his various aspects, and their gear is part of that. While there may be some minor modifications, in general I wouldn't expect an Avenger exarch to start toting a missile launcher, or fire dragons to start carrying spare shuriken catapults.

Anyway:

1) after, afaik the whole path thing started only after the fall, when the Eldar realized that frolicking around with their passions unguided can be a very bad thing.

2) They are capable of invention, and iirc there have been a few things that have come into use post-fall (spirit stones and the related technology, in particular). However, iirc it was stated that most craftworlds are operating with limited resources (equipment, material and even the eldar themselves), so they just can't afford to make some of the stuff their forefathers had.

3) Altansar is... strange. Supposedly nothing could have survived for 10000 years in the EoT, least of all a craftworld. They would most likely have aspect warriors - as far as I know they escaped the initial devastation, and only later were sucked in the Eye. In fact, due to having to resist all those demonic intrusions they might be even more strict on the paths than other craftworlds. Again, that is presuming that they have stayed true to the Eldar ways and have not fallen to chaos, only to masquerade as a saved craftworld. Few Eldar have ever gone there (sometimes rangers do in order to retrieve eldar artifacts or waystones), and the idea of an entire craftworld surviving there for millenia is practically absurd to most eldar.

Mike_the_magi
22-08-2010, 13:52
Hmmmm there has been some interesting words said on the subject but as with most areas in GW fluff it still seems very muddy. Reason I am asking is I am thinking of reviving my Eldar army and will either repaint them as Ulthwe (What I used to play back in the Day) or as Altansar as it fascinated me somewhat in the Eye of Terror Campaign.

I think the consensus seems to be that the Path buisness was started just after the Fall. So you would have thought that in the 500 years before Altansar disappeared that the Shrines would have been set up there.... IF people could get to it that is.

One thing which makes me think Eldar might not have gotten to it is this....

Its described that they got trapped in the gravity well of the Eye of Terror, and that they struggled against it before finally being absorbed, doesn't imply a sudden thing, but that they were dragged kicking and screaming into the warp. Maugan Ra was the only escapee, as is stated. So why couldn't the rest escape?

A theory that I have is that the gravity well was stopping ships from getting too and from the Craftworld, while interference in the warp was stopping the Eldar using the webway to Escape. These two factors might well stop other Eldar getting to the Craftworld.

The little sentance or two in the Eldar codex suggests that the Craftworld of Altansar was caught in the gravity well just after the fall, and spent 500 years being dragged in, with all but one Inhabitants going with it. This lends credance to my theory above.

It then goes onto say that ~when~ Asuryan taught the arts of war Maugan Ra fell farthest from the Fold. So that suggests that the First of Aspect warriors happened afterwards.

With being cut off from the rest of the Eldar Civilisation, and the quotes saying that Spirit Stones and their associated technology, and some things such as Vypers being designed after the Fall, it seems that the Army of Altansar which came to the rescue of the Eldar forces in the Eye of Choas would be a completely different beast to the Usual eldar forces.

As for example it wouldn't have Aspect Warriors as we know them, Wraithlords and Wraithguard would probably come about but would be different due to being developed in Isolation, Vypers wouldn't be present etc etc. This leads to me being able to make most of the army up as counts as units (with help from the suggestions of others.)

The Society being left in the Craftworld I can see as being extremely suspicious, regimented and militaristic if they are to survive the predations of Choas, both mortal and demons, along with the other things which inhabit the warp. The Farseers and Warlocks while an asset could also be an extreme liability and I can see them being assigned a warrior Minder to put them down if the need arises.

So it would have warriors.... Definately... but what would they be like?

negZero
22-08-2010, 22:16
Maugen Ra was never trained, he was born with his armor on and shuriken pistol in hand straight out of the womb. Once freed from his womb prison he immediately started grand record pure high octane asskicking awesomeness, which climactic ended with the opening of a rift that would eventually become the Eye of Terror, after he shot bullet without gun. After this he picked up drinking cause he missed what he was aiming for, it was only after feeling the the first of Eldar gods death that caused him to put down the bottle and pick up his weapon again. With weapon in hand and fire in his belly he start rescuing as many Eldar as he could from the devastation from forces of Chaos Gods, this was the beginning of Craftword Altansar.

Altansar Eldar were to late to escape the grasp of the Chaos Gods. Maugen Ra however had a plan, few of the Eldar Gods still live and were fighting the Chaos forces. He plunged himself in the middle of Gods battlefield, tricked Tzeentch into unleashing Khorne onto Slaanesh allowing him to rescue remnants Khaine gave them to Cegorach to spread across the galaxy for the survivors. Once done with this he went off to find where Nurgle had hid Isha, however Malice was able to get the drop on. With his rampage over Chaos Gods decide to banish him from the Eye of Terror out of fear from his awesomeness and his conquering of death preventing him from ever dying they banish him and held his Craftword hostage in case he ever decide.

Exiled from his people he turn to Asurmen in hopes he and his in training army would give him the might he need to free his people and defeat the Chaos for good. While at Shrine of Asur he realize that it was filled with nothing but weaklings and changed his plan to teach the Eldar people that only through awesomeness and not being emos would they gain back what was lost. While he wasn't busy teaching, he was working on finding way to free the Craftword that he failed.

After millenniums of preparation he gather up his best students had them crew his massive Shuriken Cannon ship and dive it straight into the Eye itself. He announced his return by blinding Tzeentch, trashing the Khorne's skull throne, stealing Nurgle's best poison, and turned the Emperor's Children sonic blasters on Slaanesh deafening him forever. With Big 4 taken care of, he could finally find and dock with Altansar. However when he got there he found Malice himself waiting for him. Ra rushed at him seeking revenge for his early defeat by him. Two battle each other to a stand still, neither one able to get advantage of the of the other. Till Cegorach and last remnant of Khaine showed up to return the favor to the great Maugen Ra. With aid of Khaine, Malice fell to there combine blades, clearing the path for Maugen Ra and Altansar. Cegorach and harlequins cleared the Craftword of any trances of taint and prevent any to follow them back to reality.

Mike_the_magi
23-08-2010, 09:08
Sounds like instead of Ultramarines.... the 40k film should be called Maugan Ra!

Lazy ninja
23-08-2010, 18:32
From what I've gathered, Asurmen founded the path of the warrior, just after the fall when the Eldar realised the implications of their unrestrained lifestyles. He founds the Shine of Asur on an unnamed planet. He draws together different pupils from different Craftworlds, and teaches them his art of war. Each of them create their own distinct 'fighting styles' and go to found their own shrines. Maugan Ra makes his on Altansar; his home craftworld. All transport being by Webway etc. Shortly after, Altansar is caught in the gravity well of the EoT. Possibly a webway breach condemns the population to their fate, except Maugan Ra, who somehow escapes. Or possibly Maugan Ra somehow escapes, only survivor, and gains his morbid and fatalist mentality from his craftworld's destruction, then on to Asurmen etc. So in respect of Altansar having aspect warriors, if Maugan Ra was there pre-PL, then none, if post PL then it would have the first and greatest Dark Reaper shrine, most probably a Dire avenger shrine, but probably no others, due to the short space of time, the other PLs might not have got round to founding their shrines there yet.

thevampiredio
24-08-2010, 08:40
Sounds like instead of Ultramarines.... the 40k film should be called Maugan Ra!

fund that **** now!

ulthwe_tactician
01-09-2010, 03:21
It's an interesting debate, but doesn't the Eye of Terror have a time dilation affect on ships/people drawn into it? Like 1-50 years stuck in the EoT equals several millenia passing by outside that region?

Then on another subject wouldn't the fleeing craftworlds (before and up to the Fall) trying to preserve their culture in a hurry would try to take as much technology, equipment, and data as possible. I'm sure in the aftermath, what craftworlds we knew survived, probably reached out toward one another and shared what knowledge they were able to take with them. Hence the Eldar being limited to what tech. they were able to take and forgot others they invented prior to the Fall.

Now to Altansar which was drawn into the EoT fairly early. I'm sure not much if any trading or dissemination of their knowledge/tech they collected occured with the other craftworlds before being sucked in. Altansar could have had a key piece of tech. in the height of the Eldar civilization that might have given them the edge toward warding of the predations of Chaos before their eventual escape from the EoT.

Thats my two-cents from what i've read over the prodigal craftworld. Knowing anything a explaination will come out of the wood works sooner or later saying either, "Altansar got lucky and the forces of Chaos were distracted to their presence" or "Altansar did indeed get warped by Chaos and are looking for a way to screw over the last remnants of the Eldar race."