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SiNNiX
20-08-2010, 01:02
So I've only played two tournament games with my Dwarfs against Lizardmen so far in 8th Edition, and I've won both games; one was a total slaughter and the other was a very close and very very awesome game. Both armies were the typical Slaan easy-win lists you see alot in 8th so far.

So I'm just wondering why it is that everyone is saying Lizardmen are the ultimate, untouchable army in 8th Edition. I've had very experienced players near my store and very credible players on these forums say the same thing. What is it exactly that makes them untouchable? It's definitely not the Slaan magic capabilities by themselves.

Azhrar
20-08-2010, 01:11
war seerian mass hype, happens from time to time. Seeing A's you just beat Them twice they can hardly be called unbeatable.

Why is it you consider lists with a slank for an easy win list?

meneroth
20-08-2010, 01:11
well, the best lizard list ive seen had 3 blocks of sarus and a lore of light slann in a block of temple guard. after he was able to get off the level 6 spell and i think the level 2 spell he had 3 attack sarus moving 8 inches base with WS10 and I10. It was pretty darn terrifying.

The real reason they are so good, in my opinion is twofold, first is that they are one of the most balanced armies in the game (arguably) in that they can bring just about everything to the field, good infantry, dangerous monsters, quick stuff, ect. secondly is that the slann became the magical monster he used to be. now that the magic phase is the most important phase in the game, the most powerful magic user becomes even more frightening. The slann is a monster at the most important phase in the game and that is really the primary reason they are considered so scary.

obviously though, they are beatable.

UDirtyRat
20-08-2010, 01:17
Lizardmen ARE NOT the ultimate, untouchable army in 8th Edition.

Dwarves are :D

Maoriboy007
20-08-2010, 01:26
Teclis culd eat a slann army.

Kayosiv
20-08-2010, 01:52
I'm going to have to concur that dwarfs are the strongest army in 8th edition. Artillery is stronger than any magic spell, and magic is so powerful it's just stupid.

SiNNiX
20-08-2010, 01:52
Lizardmen ARE NOT the ultimate, untouchable army in 8th Edition.

Dwarves are :D

Yeah, they're definitely up there! :) That's why I'm starting to play with my Daemons more; I haven't tried my Lizardmen yet. I have a very unorthodox DOC army; not the typical cheeseball list.

dimetri1
20-08-2010, 02:04
Lizardmen ARE NOT the ultimate, untouchable army in 8th Edition.

Dwarves are :D

Ditto!!!!!!!!!!

itcamefromthedeep
20-08-2010, 02:22
Okay, so maybe I killed Korhil and his 45 Spearelf buddies in one round of shooting with an Organ Gun to spare. That doesn't make Dwarfs too powerful, does it?

Does it?

---

Slann kill Temple Guard. A lot. Even after using the Cupped Hands. The army is strong and has a lot of complementary elements, but if that Slann kills half his unit and gets run down because of it, the Lizardmen are pretty much cooked.

Kampfpanzer
20-08-2010, 02:26
Your WS10 I10 isn't going to save you from mortars, cannons and rocket salvos.

Long live Karl Franz, long live the Empire.

DaemonReign
20-08-2010, 03:03
war seerian mass hype, happens from time to time.

Haha.. ahem.. yeah.. Kinda like what we had about DoC in 7th.

3Xhume
20-08-2010, 03:52
I will have to say that it is not a warseerian hype. My regular opponent is lizardmen and i know their potency of destruction. Fortunately for you, the OP, Dwarfs is the worst match up for lizardmen. That is why you are having good games with your dwarfs. Lizzie forums confirms that too if you would like to dig around. As for other armies, it is going to be an uphill battle. Yes, including teclis list. I will explain later why. Okay, i will start with my regular opponent's list. BTW, I have yet to win against this list with beastmen army.

Slann, Rumination, mystery, Lore of Life, Bane head, Feedback scroll, BSB, standard of discipline
Skink Priest on Engine of the Gods, forgot his items, maybe naked
Scar Vet, Golden Sigil sword, Hvy armor with 5+ ward

24 Saurus block, FC
10 Skink Skirmisher
30 Skink + 3 Kroxigor, FC (yeah thats right.)

3 Terradon
3 Terradon
16 Temple Guard, FC, magic standard (forgot)

Salamander
Salamander

Okay, how the list works? Here is what he do.

First, Take advantage of terrains. Salamander in a building spitting flames is nasty. So does skirmishing skinks spitting poisonous darts.

Second, Blocks of skinks and kroxigor. Steadfast unit that ALWAYS does 9 WS3 S6 attack because it is in the errata that you could not target Kroxigors!

Third, Terradons! and six of them. Fast cavalry AND skirmisher. Vanguard move and if lucky first turn 6 D3 S4 autohits. If not, flee, rally, and move again to drop rocks. You may say that it doesnt hurt so much. Wait until you feel their tricks.

Four, ugh yeah his favorite. Bane head + feedback scroll!! Target Lv 4 Wizard with bane head, let him roll 4+ power dice and see their heads explodes. Saw dead teclis this way. After exploding your wizard, he will be free to cast magic and undispelable. It explains why dwarfs can not be targeted by this combo and have a very good dispelling capability. Other armies... not so lucky because 8th ed has pushed everybody to have lv 4 wizards.

Lizardmen has solid combos that helped them become one of the top armies right now. Just my observation and oppinion.

SiNNiX
20-08-2010, 05:22
I will have to say that it is not a warseerian hype. My regular opponent is lizardmen and i know their potency of destruction. Fortunately for you, the OP, Dwarfs is the worst match up for lizardmen. That is why you are having good games with your dwarfs. Lizzie forums confirms that too if you would like to dig around. As for other armies, it is going to be an uphill battle. Yes, including teclis list. I will explain later why. Okay, i will start with my regular opponent's list. BTW, I have yet to win against this list with beastmen army.

Slann, Rumination, mystery, Lore of Life, Bane head, Feedback scroll, BSB, standard of discipline
Skink Priest on Engine of the Gods, forgot his items, maybe naked
Scar Vet, Golden Sigil sword, Hvy armor with 5+ ward

24 Saurus block, FC
10 Skink Skirmisher
30 Skink + 3 Kroxigor, FC (yeah thats right.)

3 Terradon
3 Terradon
16 Temple Guard, FC, magic standard (forgot)

Salamander
Salamander

Okay, how the list works? Here is what he do.

First, Take advantage of terrains. Salamander in a building spitting flames is nasty. So does skirmishing skinks spitting poisonous darts.

Second, Blocks of skinks and kroxigor. Steadfast unit that ALWAYS does 9 WS3 S6 attack because it is in the errata that you could not target Kroxigors!

Third, Terradons! and six of them. Fast cavalry AND skirmisher. Vanguard move and if lucky first turn 6 D3 S4 autohits. If not, flee, rally, and move again to drop rocks. You may say that it doesnt hurt so much. Wait until you feel their tricks.

Four, ugh yeah his favorite. Bane head + feedback scroll!! Target Lv 4 Wizard with bane head, let him roll 4+ power dice and see their heads explodes. Saw dead teclis this way. After exploding your wizard, he will be free to cast magic and undispelable. It explains why dwarfs can not be targeted by this combo and have a very good dispelling capability. Other armies... not so lucky because 8th ed has pushed everybody to have lv 4 wizards.

Lizardmen has solid combos that helped them become one of the top armies right now. Just my observation and oppinion.

This is all very true. In that really good and close game I was mentioning before, the Slaan used Lore of Light very effectively and also used his Salamanders very effectively; ouch! Just not enough to stop my artillery from completely massacring his entire army in the first couple turns. :)

Dwarfs have got to be the ultimate 8th Edition army. Out of the 3 tournaments I've done so far since 8th, I'm undefeated with them. Same with the couple casual games I've played so far. However, I haven't played Empire yet (will next weekend) and have heard they've very scary in this edition as well!

Lord of Divine Slaughter
20-08-2010, 06:35
Teclis culd eat a slann army.

No, you got it wrong. Brets are the ones to eat slann, preferably with a lot of garlic and a sidedish of escargot ;)

Heimagoblin
20-08-2010, 08:53
Lol, I hadn't actually noticed this thread (you will get the joke if you have seen "My army is too good"). First of, my lizards have not yet been beaten in 8th edition. This includes the systematic destruction of a teclis high elf army, aswell as many others, despite sometimes being in the command of better players than myself. I think the biggest advantage lizardmen gained was the magic lores they have got acsess too. However, the second and often understated change is that the game has gravitated towards infantry, and this is where lizardmen are at there strongest. Lastly, monsters have become much better at killing opposing infantry. This means stegs work as fantastic anvils at ld 9/10, stubborn, or as visious hammers with d6+1 str 6 auto hits, then 5 attacks at str 3, then 3 attacks str 6, then d6 auto hits at str 6. They are certainly living up to their hype for me.

venomx51
20-08-2010, 10:00
After exploding your wizard, he will be free to cast magic and undispelable.
You can still attempt to dispel without having a wizard. Ok, so you don't get a +4 to the dice roll, but you can still roll those dice (otherwise dwarfs wouldn't be so scary an opponent)

bfeijter
20-08-2010, 10:01
and they look cute, thats why canons and alike leave it alone.

o wait :)

3Xhume
20-08-2010, 10:09
@venomx51 : yup, i know that we can try to dispel. But effectively without a level 4, dispelling two slann spell is at best. Been there, done that.

PS: Its not cool to have your lv 4 wizard dude dead on the first turn.

itcamefromthedeep
20-08-2010, 11:55
and they look cute, thats why canons and alike leave it alone.

o wait :)
To kill it with a cannon or stone thrower, you have to hit the thing (not at all guaranteed), you have to get past the look Out, Sir! roll, you have to get passed the ward save, wound the thing, and then do enough wounds to kill it. In some cases you need to do those Wounds in one round, because a Life-Slann will get a Wound back for each spell it casts.

There's roughly a 1/130 chance of killing it in any given shot. Those are not good odds.

Scallat
20-08-2010, 12:56
To kill it with a cannon or stone thrower, you have to hit the thing (not at all guaranteed), you have to get past the look Out, Sir! roll, you have to get passed the ward save, wound the thing, and then do enough wounds to kill it. In some cases you need to do those Wounds in one round, because a Life-Slann will get a Wound back for each spell it casts.

There's roughly a 1/130 chance of killing it in any given shot. Those are not good odds.

And all of this is assuming he hasn't just gone ethereal.

Malorian
20-08-2010, 14:07
And all of this is assuming he hasn't just gone ethereal.

And you're assuming there are no runes on the warmachine ;)

bfeijter
20-08-2010, 15:14
i was referring to the steg sorry for the mis understanding

VoodooJanus
20-08-2010, 15:24
Is it not possible to target the Slaan with Hochland Longrifles? With TLOS, and the ability to target characters even if they can't be targeted, shouldn't sniping the Slaan out from under his bunker work well? Of course, I'm not 100% familiar with the rules, but I seem to remember that being the case.

Still- the funniest thing I've seen was Shadowblade popping up in the front rank of a temple guard unit and proceed to slice up the previously impervious slaan. It doesn't work if the temple guard unit has 2 or more ranks to the front, but it was pretty amusing to see the look on his face.

Gaargod
20-08-2010, 15:29
Hochlands are unlikely to work. Slann has T4 4+ 5W, and with life will be restoring those wounds you do manage.

Hochlands are beautiful versus many wizards, but slann don't die to them.

Alltaken
20-08-2010, 15:52
The best anti dwarf item is the plaque of protection or something like that. 2+ ward save against range attacks. Even better than only magic attacks affect him

Ymir
20-08-2010, 17:47
I don't think I've ever won against Lizardmen, not in 7th edition, and I probably won't in 8th either, for a while at least. I've gotten one win and a draw against them with my Chaos Warriors, but ordinarily, I play Tomb Kings, and well...go figure.

Enigmatik1
20-08-2010, 19:50
I don't think I've ever won against Lizardmen, not in 7th edition, and I probably won't in 8th either, for a while at least. I've gotten one win and a draw against them with my Chaos Warriors, but ordinarily, I play Tomb Kings, and well...go figure.

I've beaten them both times we've played. It should be noted however that this was in 7E, I was very good at range guessing and he generally rolled like crap during his magic phase. The first time, my first SSC shot in the magic phase crushed his EotG in Turn 1. With a crippled magic defense, the rest was pretty much academic as the Light of Death, Tomb Guard and my Prince chariot bus did the rest in over the next 3 turns.

The second, he failed to stop the Light of Death in Turn 2 and it proceeded to wipe out half of his army (he went skink/skirmisher heavy) with only a TG block and a Saurus block that had actual ranks. TG cleaned up the Saurus with help from Ushabti and I just basically ignored the TG/Slaan block until the end of the game.

I've been called out to face him in 8E and I fully expect to get annihilated. I didn't like the match up in 7E, but luck was on my side both times. I abhor the match up in 8E and it will take a monumental amount of luck for me to win against him again. If I had the option I'd run my Savage Orc list that I'm dying to try...but I'm waiting on the new models before investing.

Lordy
20-08-2010, 21:24
Lizardmen are pretty good in 8th, Skaven are the best army though imo, way better than Lizardmen.

Vsurma
20-08-2010, 21:31
And you're assuming there are no runes on the warmachine ;)

And you're assuming he hasn't taken that 5pts talisman that makes it immune to flaming attacks.... the arms race continues

:=)

N810
20-08-2010, 22:35
Dwarves have always been a bit of an Achiles heel for Lizardmen anyhow...

SiNNiX
20-08-2010, 23:44
And you're assuming he hasn't taken that 5pts talisman that makes it immune to flaming attacks.... the arms race continues

:=)

What dwarf player takes flaming attacks for all of his artillery? Not this dwarf player... Only half of my artillery has flaming attacks. I've played two games against Lizardmen in 8th Edition. The first game I killed their Slann in the second turn from artillery. It's actually pretty easy; their protection items only go so far when they have 6x S4 and S5 stone throwers shoved down their throats. :)

3Xhume
20-08-2010, 23:51
I just crushed lizzie army last night with my dwarfs. I guess that it is true. Dwarfs is one of the few armies that could take down lizzies consistently.

WarmbloodedLizard
21-08-2010, 00:49
I agree. there are probably 3+ armies that are stronger than lizardmen.

VoodooJanus
21-08-2010, 00:55
Lizardmen are pretty good in 8th, Skaven are the best army though imo, way better than Lizardmen.

Personally, I'd much rather go up against a Skaven army in 8th than a Lizardmen army. Part of that has to do with the fact that my army (WE) can't even scratch the high toughness and armor save infantry, but also because Slaan magic can overwhelm almost anything a skaven player could bring. I've always had issues with lizardmen. Skaven are okay, but they are certainly not better than LM.

cybercaine
21-08-2010, 01:44
What dwarf player takes flaming attacks for all of his artillery? Not this dwarf player... Only half of my artillery has flaming attacks. I've played two games against Lizardmen in 8th Edition. The first game I killed their Slann in the second turn from artillery. It's actually pretty easy; their protection items only go so far when they have 6x S4 and S5 stone throwers shoved down their throats. :)

Really? You must not be playing against kitted out Slaan. It's going to take an average of 6 direct hits to even average a direct hit on a slaan due to LOS. Your averaging that in misfires barring rerolls from engineers, etc. 5 out of 6 of those don't even wound. Then he's saving at worst 1 out of 2. . . but likely 1 out of 6. So you're really looking at about a 2.3% chance of even getting a chance to roll wounds on the slaan given a direct hit. . . which certainly doesn't happen every time. And then even if you wound the slaan, you have to roll 5+ for wounds usually because it heals itself. . . Good luck sniping the slaan in 8th edition. It is unlikely that you kill a slaan with war machines in a game you play. . . but I guess it's also unlikely that you win the lottery either.

ChrisIronBrow
21-08-2010, 05:45
Really? You must not be playing against kitted out Slaan. It's going to take an average of 6 direct hits to even average a direct hit on a slaan due to LOS. Your averaging that in misfires barring rerolls from engineers, etc. 5 out of 6 of those don't even wound. Then he's saving at worst 1 out of 2. . . but likely 1 out of 6. So you're really looking at about a 2.3% chance of even getting a chance to roll wounds on the slaan given a direct hit. . . which certainly doesn't happen every time. And then even if you wound the slaan, you have to roll 5+ for wounds usually because it heals itself. . . Good luck sniping the slaan in 8th edition. It is unlikely that you kill a slaan with war machines in a game you play. . . but I guess it's also unlikely that you win the lottery either.


No offense man, but I think your math is way off. 2.3%? It's not ideal, but wamachines in quantity can still kill any character in a unit.

Take Dwarfs, 3 cannons, 6 bolt throwers, and 3 grudge throwers. 12 shots a turn, average 2 misfires (but basicly ignore these with Engineers) Average 2 Failed LoS rolls. So 2 hits on slan every turn, 4+ ward takes 1. Leaving one to go through. Then even if you don't kill him in one hit, it forces him too use his magic phase to heal himself, or you will kill him next turn.

Kudzu
21-08-2010, 06:37
No offense man, but I think your math is way off. 2.3%? It's not ideal, but wamachines in quantity can still kill any character in a unit.

Take Dwarfs, 3 cannons, 6 bolt throwers, and 3 grudge throwers. 12 shots a turn, average 2 misfires (but basicly ignore these with Engineers) Average 2 Failed LoS rolls. So 2 hits on slan every turn, 4+ ward takes 1. Leaving one to go through. Then even if you don't kill him in one hit, it forces him too use his magic phase to heal himself, or you will kill him next turn.

I'm guessing that's not counting chameleons, terradons, and dwellers softening up that gunline o' doom. ;)

cybercaine
21-08-2010, 06:40
Really? You must not be playing against kitted out Slaan. It's going to take an average of 6 direct hits to even average a direct hit on a slaan due to LOS. Your averaging that in misfires barring rerolls from engineers, etc. 5 out of 6 of those don't even wound. Then he's saving at worst 1 out of 2. . . but likely 1 out of 6. So you're really looking at about a 2.3% chance of even getting a chance to roll wounds on the slaan given a direct hit



No offense man, but I think your math is way off. 2.3%? It's not ideal, but wamachines in quantity can still kill any character in a unit.

Take Dwarfs, 3 cannons, 6 bolt throwers, and 3 grudge throwers. 12 shots a turn, average 2 misfires (but basicly ignore these with Engineers) Average 2 Failed LoS rolls. So 2 hits on slan every turn, 4+ ward takes 1. Leaving one to go through. Then even if you don't kill him in one hit, it forces him too use his magic phase to heal himself, or you will kill him next turn.

First, I like the example of Empire against LM better. Empire's artillery is a lot less effective against lizzies for a few reasons: A: No Thorek which means no ability to truly kite. B: No insane anti-magic means that slaan are dominating both sides of the magic phase usually. C: Non-magical war machines are a lot worse against LM than magical ones in general. The lack of flame warmachines certainly play a part too when tg likely have regenerate.

Alright, I assume a few things. A: That the Slaan's TG is made up of more than 5 models rendering the bolt thrower useless at targeting the slaan. B: Let's assume that your cannons and grudge throwers roll what you need them to to hit the slaan directly (the canon will roll the correct bounce distance to include the slaan and the grudge thrower will hit directly and not scatter). C: That the slaan is using either a divine plaq of protection or is immune to non-magic damage. Let's assume divine plaq as it is likely cheaper given that the slaan is definitely running FR and BC.

So, let's look at the cannon. Given that it hits in front of the TG and bounces through the unit, it will fail to wound the front TG 1 in 6 times (thus stopping) and fail to wound the Slaan 1 in 6 times. Therefore, each cannon shot will only wound the slaan 25 out of 36 times. Now, given that hit, the Slaan will make a LoS roll 1 in 6 times. Thus, the slaan will suffer the wound 25 out of 216 times. Now, given the plaq, the slaan will save 2+ and thus will suffer wounds 25 out of 1296 times which is approx 1.9% of the time. Even without the plaq, he will suffer wounds only 25 out of 432 times which is approx. 5.8%. Now, even if you roll that 1.9% chance. . . which won't happen often. . . you still need to roll a 5+ for wounds to finish him off. Which means that to insta-gib the slaan with a canon ball that bounces correctly (not even figuring the odds of that yet), to kill an un-wounded slaan with a canon ball becomes a 25 in 3888 which is approx. .6%. In reality, it's worse as you won't hit every time. Even if you're hitting 80% of the time which is a high rate of hitting, that number worsens significantly.

And it's important that you instant kill the slaan. It is incredibly unlikely that you hit the 1.9% chance to roll wounds on the slaan twice in a game. And given that you even get that chance, it is likely that the slaan is attempting to heal each turn by spamming life spells. So the odds are quite stacked against you with cannons. It is far more likely that you can deal with the unit via attrition. This is possible. Even still, it's likely that the unit has a 5+ ward save via the EoG.

Now, look at the grudge thrower. I understand that the grudgethrower can be flaming, extra-strong. . . but these things significantly reduce the points that you can spend on warmachines. . . especially the +S. So, let's look at a regular grudge thrower. Given a hit, you will basically have the same issue as the cannon. The odds don't change much. essentially, you lose the initial 25 in 36 and it becomes a 5 in 6. That changes the final odds to: 5 in 216. Or approx 2.3% my original number. I chose that one as it was more generous in my example (I forgot to factor in the odds of failing to wound the guy in front of the slaan, thus stopping the cannonball before it even was an issue).

Now, I understand that dwarves can significantly impact the ability of a slaan to heal or buff himself. And I understand that Thorek can give extra rounds of shooting at the slaan. But sniping a slaan with a warmachine is incredibly unlikely this edition. It was unlikely last edition too. . . but it happened to me once. But that was too terrible turns in succession with no ability to heal in the meantime against TK and the skull catapults. This edition, it essentially went from hard to nearly impossible. Honestly, it's easier to kill the unit than kill the slaan before the unit dies.

Note that by saying a 2.3% or 1.9% chance I'm saying that this is per shot. If you wanted to look at it as a per game average. . . that's a little more complex and we have to define how many shots do you actually get per war machine.

Spinocus
21-08-2010, 07:56
Take Dwarfs, 3 cannons, 6 bolt throwers, and 3 grudge throwers. 12 shots a turn, average 2 misfires (but basicly ignore these with Engineers) Average 2 Failed LoS rolls. So 2 hits on slan every turn, 4+ ward takes 1. Leaving one to go through. Then even if you don't kill him in one hit, it forces him too use his magic phase to heal himself, or you will kill him next turn.

Is that a hypothetical scenario or an accurate reflection of your average Dwarf list? Consistently fielding that many war machines is sure to leave a Dwarf player with precious few opponents willing to let him play the odds. Call me crazy but I just don't see many people warming to the idea that their army could easily be beheaded, sodomized and possibly tabled by an uber-cheesy template fest by the end of the 2nd or 3rd turn.

bfeijter
21-08-2010, 10:03
Look, Lizzies are strong.
No doubt about it.
But they are not unbeatable.
And thats where this post is about.

Skaven, HE, DE, Empire, Dwarfs, all have a fighting chance against them.
(probably more, but not familiar with other armies)

Plus stuff like purple sun and other inniative based spells realy hurt lizzies.
The slann is real tough but you dont have to kill it to win.

Oglog
21-08-2010, 10:08
I would love to play 2000-3000 points teclis list vs slann list. Would be very fun. Also, I think Lizardmen are good in 8th but also fair and definatley not unbeatable. It is hard to make a bad lizardmen list but it also doesn't have a cheesy build, each build makes sense. E.g. slann in temple guard IS normal and not overkill of spamming cheese. Some teclis lists are cheesy but also more poweful. I would say dwarfs are in a similar position to lizardmen. Obviously all of these armies would crush TK, ogres, wood elves, for example.

Walgis
21-08-2010, 10:13
well i think that you played againts not a very skilled lizardmen player if you masacared him twice.
i played againts Empire (i dont call me a very skilled player) in that scenario where you put your troops on other edges than normal, the long corners dont remember the scenario name. and i managed to win! you just need chameleons and those war machines go down like flyes.
sorry for my terrible english.

Vaiuri
21-08-2010, 10:40
War Machine spam will hurt Lizards.

I think what makes them good is that they are so balanced and have a very 'pick up and play' army list.

As someone mentioned earlier, block infantry got a whole lot beter this edition, and Lizards have some of the nicest blocks in the game. I dont think Lizards are overpowered, but they are very forgiving of mistakes and you can always rely on your basic infantry.

So far my Lizards are unbeaten this edition, but every game my opponents are learning new tricks and the games are getting closer and closer. I'm playing a multi-hydra DElf list tonight over the watchtower, I dont think it will go well for me :rolleyes:

madden
21-08-2010, 10:56
Recheck your cannon rules as mine says the ball carrys on though the unit if it dosen't kill the first IF it's not mon inft, cav or beast and monster so they will always hit the slaan if rolled high/in a tg unit.(p113 second bullet point)
Back on topic no lizards arnt unbeatable my beasts did so yesterday shut down his magic and wore his saurus down with multi charges and a five mino plus gorebull really killed them my biggest problem was posion blow pipes so a couple of raider units tied them up. Though my op didn't use a steg, they were tough but numbers told.

Tymell
21-08-2010, 11:14
war seerian mass hype

Pretty much this. As soon as someone wins one or two games with an army/gets beaten in one or two games, there'll be a thread telling everyone how it's the ultimate army.

jamano
21-08-2010, 12:49
I would love to play 2000-3000 points teclis list vs slann list. Would be very fun. Also, I think Lizardmen are good in 8th but also fair and definatley not unbeatable. It is hard to make a bad lizardmen list but it also doesn't have a cheesy build, each build makes sense. E.g. slann in temple guard IS normal and not overkill of spamming cheese. Some teclis lists are cheesy but also more poweful. I would say dwarfs are in a similar position to lizardmen. Obviously all of these armies would crush TK, ogres, wood elves, for example.
I've seen this game a few times in ard boyz practice, it ends the same way every time, with slight variation. Teclis sits in unit that is immune to spells and IF's dwellers below and kills the slann and a third of his unit first or second turn(second turn incase the slann makes his roll the first time).

itcamefromthedeep
21-08-2010, 14:15
Take Dwarfs, 3 cannons, 6 bolt throwers, and 3 grudge throwers. 12 shots a turn, average 2 misfires (but basicly ignore these with Engineers) Average 2 Failed LoS rolls. So 2 hits on slan every turn, 4+ ward takes 1. Leaving one to go through. Then even if you don't kill him in one hit, it forces him too use his magic phase to heal himself, or you will kill him next turn.
Bolt throwers aren't helping, as mentioned before. Without runes of Accuracy and Forging going on (bear with me) it's roughly a 1/3 for the war machine to actually hit the target. LOS makes that 1/18 per machine. The ward save makes that 1/36. The roll to wound cuts that down to about 1/44 Then you actually have to roll enough Wounds to kill the model, making it something like a 1/132. Aiming 6 war machines at it would make that more like a 1/22 in any given turn. It probably wouldn't take 132 shots to kill that Slann because that much war machine fire would likely kill the Temple Guard off early.

From there, the healing part of the Lore of Life -doesn't- take up the magic phase. Healing a wound is *free* with every spell the Slann casts, no matter who the spell targets.


Consistently fielding that many war machines is sure to leave a Dwarf player with precious few opponents willing to let him play the odds. Call me crazy but I just don't see many people warming to the idea that their army could easily be beheaded, sodomized and possibly tabled by an uber-cheesy template fest by the end of the 2nd or 3rd turn.So, Dwarfs are so powerful that they need to handicap themselves to make the game any fun at all. Would you then say that Dwarfs have the best build available?

I tend to think that gunlines have a few too many weaknesses to be top dog
(particularly with 8th's bump in charge range).


I would love to play 2000-3000 points teclis list vs slann list. Would be very fun.

I've seen this game a few times in ard boyz practice, it ends the same way every time, with slight variation. Teclis sits in unit that is immune to spells and IF's dwellers below and kills the slann and a third of his unit first or second turn(second turn incase the slann makes his roll the first time).
Played that game last night, except that it was Final Transmutation on the second turn and Teclis wasn't immune to magic (the Slann just failed to cast things a bunch). I find Metal provides answers to otherwise difficult questions (Steam Tanks) while maintaining strong augmenting ability in the form of Glittering Robe.

Anywho, the point is that Slann aren't good enough to propel Lizardmen past a Teclis build or war-machine-heavy Dwarfs. Not at all unbeatable.

SiNNiX
21-08-2010, 14:26
First, I like the example of Empire against LM better. Empire's artillery is a lot less effective against lizzies for a few reasons: A: No Thorek which means no ability to truly kite. B: No insane anti-magic means that slaan are dominating both sides of the magic phase usually. C: Non-magical war machines are a lot worse against LM than magical ones in general. The lack of flame warmachines certainly play a part too when tg likely have regenerate.

Alright, I assume a few things. A: That the Slaan's TG is made up of more than 5 models rendering the bolt thrower useless at targeting the slaan. B: Let's assume that your cannons and grudge throwers roll what you need them to to hit the slaan directly (the canon will roll the correct bounce distance to include the slaan and the grudge thrower will hit directly and not scatter). C: That the slaan is using either a divine plaq of protection or is immune to non-magic damage. Let's assume divine plaq as it is likely cheaper given that the slaan is definitely running FR and BC.

So, let's look at the cannon. Given that it hits in front of the TG and bounces through the unit, it will fail to wound the front TG 1 in 6 times (thus stopping) and fail to wound the Slaan 1 in 6 times. Therefore, each cannon shot will only wound the slaan 25 out of 36 times. Now, given that hit, the Slaan will make a LoS roll 1 in 6 times. Thus, the slaan will suffer the wound 25 out of 216 times. Now, given the plaq, the slaan will save 2+ and thus will suffer wounds 25 out of 1296 times which is approx 1.9% of the time. Even without the plaq, he will suffer wounds only 25 out of 432 times which is approx. 5.8%. Now, even if you roll that 1.9% chance. . . which won't happen often. . . you still need to roll a 5+ for wounds to finish him off. Which means that to insta-gib the slaan with a canon ball that bounces correctly (not even figuring the odds of that yet), to kill an un-wounded slaan with a canon ball becomes a 25 in 3888 which is approx. .6%. In reality, it's worse as you won't hit every time. Even if you're hitting 80% of the time which is a high rate of hitting, that number worsens significantly.

And it's important that you instant kill the slaan. It is incredibly unlikely that you hit the 1.9% chance to roll wounds on the slaan twice in a game. And given that you even get that chance, it is likely that the slaan is attempting to heal each turn by spamming life spells. So the odds are quite stacked against you with cannons. It is far more likely that you can deal with the unit via attrition. This is possible. Even still, it's likely that the unit has a 5+ ward save via the EoG.

Now, look at the grudge thrower. I understand that the grudgethrower can be flaming, extra-strong. . . but these things significantly reduce the points that you can spend on warmachines. . . especially the +S. So, let's look at a regular grudge thrower. Given a hit, you will basically have the same issue as the cannon. The odds don't change much. essentially, you lose the initial 25 in 36 and it becomes a 5 in 6. That changes the final odds to: 5 in 216. Or approx 2.3% my original number. I chose that one as it was more generous in my example (I forgot to factor in the odds of failing to wound the guy in front of the slaan, thus stopping the cannonball before it even was an issue).

Now, I understand that dwarves can significantly impact the ability of a slaan to heal or buff himself. And I understand that Thorek can give extra rounds of shooting at the slaan. But sniping a slaan with a warmachine is incredibly unlikely this edition. It was unlikely last edition too. . . but it happened to me once. But that was too terrible turns in succession with no ability to heal in the meantime against TK and the skull catapults. This edition, it essentially went from hard to nearly impossible. Honestly, it's easier to kill the unit than kill the slaan before the unit dies.

Note that by saying a 2.3% or 1.9% chance I'm saying that this is per shot. If you wanted to look at it as a per game average. . . that's a little more complex and we have to define how many shots do you actually get per war machine.

As much as you can do Mathhammer, it never... never plays in. How often do you fail S6+ Strength Tests? Or Leadership tests with Stubborn Ld10 troops? Or need 2's to Wound and roll 3 1's with 4 attacks?

In theory, this is a game of mathematical probabilities. But for the 12 years I've been playing this game, and the 4 years I played RPG's before that, dice rolls never reflect their probabilities. Never. I'm not saying that building your army off of mathematical probabilities is a bad thing; that's what I do as well. It just never plays out that way.

acsmedic
21-08-2010, 14:42
I am 4-1 vs Lizards in 8th

I ran no hell cannon WOC and HE

My one loss was me trying lore of light, book of hoeth HE list with the idea of getting into combat uber quick and protecting my t3 elves with anti shooting and speed. (I did not know I was facing lizzies as I always build my lists as all comers) Anyways I did not get a single spell off that was not double 6's (only two spells got off b4 multiple miscast into non wizard.. 3 with the cupped hands. it was funny a 400 point armor less single attack model)

Anyways although my 5 games vs lizzies are obviously anecdotal I think that they demonstrate lizzies are not unbeatable. (before anyone says it I played several different players from casual to hardcore tourney player that before I came along consistently beat everyone in my area)

Lizzies greatest strength is their greatest weakness. The Slann. Kill the Slann win the game. fire every weapon and spell at his unit and get into combat with his unit ASAP.

I also think that lore of light is the only lore for lizzards... life is good but light addresses lizzies greatest weakness; across the board low Init.

cybercaine
21-08-2010, 15:29
As much as you can do Mathhammer, it never... never plays in. How often do you fail S6+ Strength Tests? Or Leadership tests with Stubborn Ld10 troops? Or need 2's to Wound and roll 3 1's with 4 attacks?

In theory, this is a game of mathematical probabilities. But for the 12 years I've been playing this game, and the 4 years I played RPG's before that, dice rolls never reflect their probabilities. Never. I'm not saying that building your army off of mathematical probabilities is a bad thing; that's what I do as well. It just never plays out that way.

I don't get this argument. Of course the probable outcomes don't come all the time. But I think a lot of people run more probable than they generally think. It's the poker player syndrome. All of them are convinced that they run poorly because the times where they run bad stick out in their mind. They seem to forget the hundred or so times before that. I think it's similar in warhammer. I for one still like to choose to gamble on probabilities skewed to my favor rather than my opponent's.

WarmbloodedLizard
21-08-2010, 16:12
As much as you can do Mathhammer, it never... never plays in.

you're saying that probability doesn't work...

it always works. and most people roll extremely average rolls. the problem is the amount of dice used. in a combat phase when 2 full blocks meet, you will see pretty reliable average rolls. when you roll only 1 die or 2 or 4 dice (characterisitc tests for heroes/monsters, magic phase, cupped hands, hero attacks) it is not very reliable because the variance is extremely high. this doesn't mean that mathhammer doesn't work. it works perfectly fine.

Tymell
21-08-2010, 16:49
As much as you can do Mathhammer, it never... never plays in. How often do you fail S6+ Strength Tests? Or Leadership tests with Stubborn Ld10 troops? Or need 2's to Wound and roll 3 1's with 4 attacks?

In theory, this is a game of mathematical probabilities. But for the 12 years I've been playing this game, and the 4 years I played RPG's before that, dice rolls never reflect their probabilities. Never. I'm not saying that building your army off of mathematical probabilities is a bad thing; that's what I do as well. It just never plays out that way.

Not to take this totally off-topic, but if it comes down to choice between statistical probabilities backed up by mathematicians or the anecdotal recollections of tabletop gamers (not yourself, just in general) I know which I'm siding with ;)

Not to say there aren't factors beyond simple statistical probability involved in the game as a whole, but it's more likely that people remember things selectively than a whole field of maths just being wrong.

SiNNiX
22-08-2010, 06:46
Like I said in my post, I'm not saying that building your army, your characters, your units, etc. based on mathematical probabilities is a bad thing; it's what I do and it's what you're supposed to do. However, saying "My Slann has a 1 in 83 chance to die; I've got nothing to worry about!" is a little naive. I'm not directing this comment at any particular poster in this thread, it's just a common attitude that I disagree with. I see mathematical probabilities as the base for how I structure my army, but I definitely would never completely rely on them. It's always good to be completely pessimistic about possible scenarios when building your army and playing the game. Although it has been highly unlikely that I should kill the Slann at all in either of my two games, I killed it both games, one of which was killed in turn 2.

Slann are awesome though; they're virtually unstoppable for most armies.

cybercaine
22-08-2010, 07:44
Like I said in my post, I'm not saying that building your army, your characters, your units, etc. based on mathematical probabilities is a bad thing; it's what I do and it's what you're supposed to do. However, saying "My Slann has a 1 in 83 chance to die; I've got nothing to worry about!" is a little naive. I'm not directing this comment at any particular poster in this thread, it's just a common attitude that I disagree with. I see mathematical probabilities as the base for how I structure my army, but I definitely would never completely rely on them. It's always good to be completely pessimistic about possible scenarios when building your army and playing the game. Although it has been highly unlikely that I should kill the Slann at all in either of my two games, I killed it both games, one of which was killed in turn 2.

Slann are awesome though; they're virtually unstoppable for most armies.

Hmmmm. . . I don't get what you're saying here. You structure your army with mathematical probabilities as a base. . . but you don't completely rely on them? Isn't that sort of what you do in this game every time? I mean, my guys are 12" away; odds say I'm likely to make a charge. I declare a charge. Or, my guys are pretty elite in combat and seem likely to mow through my opponents given probable outcomes so I charge. Or better still, my guys are gonna get slaughtered by his unit given probable outcomes so I attempt to avoid them and decide to not charge them.

I don't know, it just seems to me that a large part of being successful in this game comes into play understanding where the sucker bets are. Essentially, when we talk probability, this is what we are talking about. Not that it's impossible for the slaan to get murdered with a cannonball to the face, but rather it's silly to fire that cannonball at the face of the slaan because it's like playing by trying to hit the lottery. To borrow an example from another odds based game, poker - You can certainly push in with any two cards preflop and be guaranteed a shot at the pot. But do you really want to be pushing with 20% chances when you can pick your spots at better odds? This is fairly equivalent to what I see attempting to snipe the Slaan at and this is what I'm trying to communicate with the odds.

plantagenet
22-08-2010, 08:28
Odds are great for giving you an idea of what should happen but they never prohibit me from having a go. I personally play the lottery as well. Now I know as well as the next person my chances of winning are minimal at best, but i only need it to come puff once so the gamble is worth the risk. I certainly have a better chance of winning than someone who never plays.

We also all know that dice games like warhammer are about risk management. I know what should happen due to odds but i nearly always plan on my opponent getting better than average. In those way I am able to manage the risk before it arrives.

Back to lizards the fact they can make themselves virtually impervious to miscasts in my opinion is what makes them so strong. If playing a life wizard you must stop throne of vines. Doing this largely cripples the effect of all other Life spells anyway.

Vaiuri
22-08-2010, 11:19
Update: lost my first game to DElves over the tower last night. Horrible list with 2 lvl 4 sorceresses, 2 Hydras and a bunch of other nasties! I had some terrible dice rolls for magic and got killed to a man by turn 5 :(

Never mind! Playing him again on Wednesday :)

To OP: so no, Lizards are NOT unbeatable ;)

SiNNiX
22-08-2010, 17:08
Hmmmm. . . I don't get what you're saying here. You structure your army with mathematical probabilities as a base. . . but you don't completely rely on them? Isn't that sort of what you do in this game every time? I mean, my guys are 12" away; odds say I'm likely to make a charge. I declare a charge. Or, my guys are pretty elite in combat and seem likely to mow through my opponents given probable outcomes so I charge. Or better still, my guys are gonna get slaughtered by his unit given probable outcomes so I attempt to avoid them and decide to not charge them.

I don't know, it just seems to me that a large part of being successful in this game comes into play understanding where the sucker bets are. Essentially, when we talk probability, this is what we are talking about. Not that it's impossible for the slaan to get murdered with a cannonball to the face, but rather it's silly to fire that cannonball at the face of the slaan because it's like playing by trying to hit the lottery. To borrow an example from another odds based game, poker - You can certainly push in with any two cards preflop and be guaranteed a shot at the pot. But do you really want to be pushing with 20% chances when you can pick your spots at better odds? This is fairly equivalent to what I see attempting to snipe the Slaan at and this is what I'm trying to communicate with the odds.

Point taken, brother. My only problem is that way too many players don't have back up plans and that's usually how I beat them every single time. Players don't expect their uber general to die by a stone thrower to the face on the first turn, and then they don't have a backup strategy for the rest of the game and it ends up being a massacre. If I kill your Slann on turn 1, don't roll over and die; you should already have a strategy lined up. One of the reasons I rarely lose is because I sit there and think of a hundred different things I'll be able to do for a hundred different situations. I base my decisions during the battle off of mathematical probabilities, but I will never put it past dice, or the decisions of my opponent, to spoil my decisions, as little of a chance as there may be for that to happen.

Anyway, back to LM, I'm a little sad that gone are the days of Non-Slann armies. I think fighting an army boasting an Old-blood on a Carnosaur would be fun; S7 Thunderstomp attacks!!! Right? No? Just Slann? Alright then. :) So I have scheduled another game against LM for Wednesday games and I already know it's a local "nasty" Slann list. We'll see what happens!

WarmbloodedLizard
22-08-2010, 20:07
Anyway, back to LM, I'm a little sad that gone are the days of Non-Slann armies. I think fighting an army boasting an Old-blood on a Carnosaur would be fun; S7 Thunderstomp attacks!!! Right? No? Just Slann? Alright then. :) So I have scheduled another game against LM for Wednesday games and I already know it's a local "nasty" Slann list. We'll see what happens!

yeah, that's something I don't like about 8th ed: you HAVE to take a mage, especially with LM.

I think that Fighter Lords of certain armies should give the whole army some kind of bonus to make them a viable choice.
e.g. If you field an Oldblood, all Saurus models with a 5+ Scaly Skin save have it increased to 4+.

Shandowner
22-08-2010, 20:21
My 2 Cents
Lizards are oneof the best armies in 8th....

CoolKidRoc
22-08-2010, 20:26
yeah, that's something I don't like about 8th ed: you HAVE to take a mage, especially with LM.

I think that Fighter Lords of certain armies should give the whole army some kind of bonus to make them a viable choice.
e.g. If you field an Oldblood, all Saurus models with a 5+ Scaly Skin save have it increased to 4+.

Space Marine Characters anyone?

HEHE

If I take Vulkan, do my Salamanders become Twin Linked ;)

Kayosiv
22-08-2010, 21:05
Anyway, back to LM, I'm a little sad that gone are the days of Non-Slann armies. I think fighting an army boasting an Old-blood on a Carnosaur would be fun; S7 Thunderstomp attacks!!! Right? No? Just Slann? Alright then. :) So I have scheduled another game against LM for Wednesday games and I already know it's a local "nasty" Slann list. We'll see what happens!

I agree. I started Lizardmen in 2008 and have no interest in ever fielding a Slann. I had 2 skink priests and an Oldblood general with a skink chief BSB. You can't do this anymore. A skink priest on an engine of the gods takes most of your hero slot allotment, only leaving enough points for a Scar Veteran BSB, because a skink chief bsb on a stegadon takes too many points. So I can't have my 2nd skink priest if I choose an engine. Not that I would have a skink priest on foot this edition anyway because with true-line-of-sight he can't actually hide and would die very quickly.

Not to mention this edition has neutered the Carnosaur because unit champions can completely shut him down for a turn because it gets cheated out of its overkill bonus because it is not allowed to attack if the challenger is dead before the Carnosaur (at initiative 2) gets to swing. On top of that, with warmachines being 100% accurate now, and the fact that it not being a large target is no longer beneficial to avoid enemy fire, it just dies to war machines and the much more powerful spell lores all too often.

These much more powerful spell lores make the Slann more alluring. Everything points away from the Carnisaur and towards the Slann. The Slann got stronger and the Carnisaur Oldblood got MUCH weaker. Having played half a dozen games without a Slann I feel like I really just need one to be competitive. That's really sad.

Marshal Torrick
22-08-2010, 23:22
To the topic title:

I don't play lizardmen, but they own all kinds of face on my Vampires. I get outmagicked, my 6's go away to cast, I inevitably eat a miscast for the Slaan, your troops outfight mine, you can get a good amount of shooting, and fear does nothing to Ld9 coldblooded with BSB-Slaan.

They get my vote anyway.

SiNNiX
23-08-2010, 01:07
I don't know, I really do think dwarfs are the ultimate 8th Edition army so far. I have yet to lose an 8th Edition games and I've been playing with players who were seasoned 7th Edition tournament veterans; people who used to give me a loss on a regular basis. The only two 8th Edition armies I haven't fought yet are OK and WE, both of which I'm under the mass impression are less-than-par armies.

I like my army. :) Lizardmen can go to... Chaos?

macdaddy_o
23-08-2010, 22:42
Lizards are one of the best armies in 8th, but given the nature of 8th, I don't think any army is unbeatable by anyone. Between uber spells, accurate warmachines and general luck of the dice, anyone can beat anyone.

I loved running an all saurus character army in 6th/7th. A carnosaur, a bsb on a cold one and a jsod, generating 5 dispel dice and no scrolls. It was fun and challenging, and I rarely lost with it.

With The new book, I toyed with the idea, but without the extra dispel dice, I didn't see it working. In 8th, it has even less of a chance.

Slann armies got a decent boost in 8th making them hard as nails.

They have good leadership, rock solid infantry, solid shooting, great magic, and some good heavy hitters. Everything you need to be successful.

N810
23-08-2010, 22:58
And the worst initiative in the game, (besides Zombies).
this makes them very vulnerable to certain spells and items.

macdaddy_o
24-08-2010, 00:35
So what? There are counters for the spells (becalming, feed back scrolls, general mage hunting, dwellers below), and the only item I know of is the brass orb, which I have never seen in tournament environment.

SiNNiX
24-08-2010, 05:43
And the worst initiative in the game, (besides Zombies).
this makes them very vulnerable to certain spells and items.

Yeah, they're really not overpowered at all imo. Good to see you, N810.

Blackknight1239
24-08-2010, 05:59
Hey guys, I just won 6 games in around with my Bretonnians.

Bretonnia is clearly unbeatable in eighth.

Vsurma
24-08-2010, 06:10
I've seen this game a few times in ard boyz practice, it ends the same way every time, with slight variation. Teclis sits in unit that is immune to spells and IF's dwellers below and kills the slann and a third of his unit first or second turn(second turn incase the slann makes his roll the first time).

There is a counter, granted not many people use it in their normal list.
Cognition stopps the slanns 6s which makes it harder for the mage to reach the casting limit of 21 when over 18", seeing as the average roll for 6 dice drops to only 15+4 from teclis. Also less IF.

Feedback scroll and banehead mean if the slann is throwing more than 4.5 dice at the spell it is likely to die.

Now I don't use the feedback scroll myself, prefering cupped hands and banehead for a similar effect but you are more likely than not going to run up against either combo.

If teclis gets the first turn though its bad as that turn the cognition will have no effect against a knowledeable player.

DarkstarSabre
24-08-2010, 07:46
And the worst initiative in the game, (besides Zombies).
this makes them very vulnerable to certain spells and items.

This. People seem to forget Initiative matters now.

Not only do they strike last the vast majority of the time (even our 'quick' units have I4 - nothing to Elves and only just equal to Skaven) but they have low WS across the board as well - WS 3 Saurus will be hit by a high number of things they're against. WS 4 Saurus fair not much better. Our elite units really aren't that elite.

McBaine
24-08-2010, 08:20
To the topic title:

I don't play lizardmen, but they own all kinds of face on my Vampires. I get outmagicked, my 6's go away to cast, I inevitably eat a miscast for the Slaan, your troops outfight mine, you can get a good amount of shooting, and fear does nothing to Ld9 coldblooded with BSB-Slaan.

They get my vote anyway.

Nah, I right out massacred a slann list with my Vampire counts.

- My two black coaches took care of many of his power dice, my black periapt, Motba and three channeler Necros provided me with enough power dice for casting despite the black coach.

- He didnt choose my LvL 4 Vampire Lord to ignore 6s^^ I had a lvl 1 vampire with all spells from the lore of death (hello purple sun) and the power scroll on a hellsteed. This is such a threat, he cant block 6s on my lvl 4 - and so he casts away all he wants^^

- His troops didnt outfight mine. 1 Unit of Graveguard had 2 wight kings in it and the banner of the barrows. They got WS 10 from the helmet caster Vamp and with their great swords they hit and wounded on 2+. The opponent unit only hit on 5+ and couldn't be raised when they were slain. The other Grave guard unit had 2 vampires in it and a wight BSB with Drakenhof. They slaughtered the templeguard and when the Slann fled he was autoslain because he was the BSB.

They are very beatable^^

jamano
24-08-2010, 08:46
I'm not sure I would say that makes them "very beatable" if you used two black coaches and the most broken combo out there right now(the hellsteed powerscroll guy). I don't think LM are unbeatable or anything, but the OP spells being good at them isn't really the best way to say they're balanced(this isnt just to the poster above me). I think they could easily be the new demons of 8th once everyone gets the hang of them though.(and I say this mostly because of their magic phase power)

Gork or Possibly Mork
24-08-2010, 12:23
So I've only played two tournament games with my Dwarfs against Lizardmen so far in 8th Edition, and I've won both games; one was a total slaughter and the other was a very close and very very awesome game. Both armies were the typical Slaan easy-win lists you see alot in 8th so far.

So I'm just wondering why it is that everyone is saying Lizardmen are the ultimate, untouchable army in 8th Edition. I've had very experienced players near my store and very credible players on these forums say the same thing. What is it exactly that makes them untouchable? It's definitely not the Slaan magic capabilities by themselves.

Unbeatable huh? Who ever gave you that idea. I would say far from it. They are a great army though but they have thier weaknesses. Alot of those weaknesses happen to be dwarves strengths. We've always struggled against them. Chameleons and lots of them tend to help big time though.

macdaddy_o
24-08-2010, 18:05
This. People seem to forget Initiative matters now.

Not only do they strike last the vast majority of the time (even our 'quick' units have I4 - nothing to Elves and only just equal to Skaven) but they have low WS across the board as well - WS 3 Saurus will be hit by a high number of things they're against. WS 4 Saurus fair not much better. Our elite units really aren't that elite.

Yes initiative matters, and lizard man initiative sucks, but honestly its not much different than 7th. I rarely got the charge with M4 infantry, and usually had enough casualties that I was getting at most half of my attacks back. Anything solid hitting thee infantry would crumple them.

Now, with always being able to strike, they pretty much rock.

Sure purple sun will nuke them, but there are ways to counter it and mage hunt.

Every army has its weaknesses and can be exploited.

As I said, they are in no way unbeatable, but are rock solid.


I am curious. If you had a vamp on a steed in a position on a flank for using people sun, why didn't he have terradons drop rocks on him, our chameleon skink poison him to death?

McBaine
24-08-2010, 18:20
I am curious. If you had a vamp on a steed in a position on a flank for using people sun, why didn't he have terradons drop rocks on him, our chameleon skink poison him to death?

Was that for me ?
I had the char on the left flank, he had the Terradons on the right. The Skink skirmishers can't shoot 360 and in the first round the vamp was in a ghoul unit. I flew over the skinks and was in position for purple sun. The Terradons were too far away and the skinks couldn't manage to shoot him over three turns^^