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Scribe of Khorne
20-08-2010, 05:03
Hey all, I tried a few searches, but failed, I am looking for information on Chaos Eldar, if anyone has any links out there or can give some information on any structure, potential forces, sightings in the 40k universe, book mentions, any of that, it would be great.

Col. Tartleton
20-08-2010, 05:34
There's next to nothing besides the fact they are "the greatest of Chaos' servants" and extremely rare or something to that extent. In order to be a Chaos Eldar it means you are evil and powerful enough to convince Slaanesh not to eat your soul. Think how screwed up the Eldar are hiding from Slaanesh. Now think how screwed up the Dark Eldar are for trying to satisfy Slaanesh enough to leave them alone. Now imagine how screwed up an Eldar who is totally down with Slaanesh would be.

Not that they have to be linked to Slaanesh, any God works, but the Eldar are closely linked to the Leather Whip God and he would have first pick for followers among them.

A Chaos Eldar Lord could only be something that would be inappropriate even within the bounds of Rule 34...

Poseidal
20-08-2010, 08:06
The other possibility is going to the route of another patron. In exchange for protecting yourself from Slaanesh, you give yourself to Khorne who hates Slaanesh.

Of course, you have to be pretty impressive to draw his attention and considering the location that would be difficult so what a champion this one would be.

They are servants beyond Abaddon, beyond even the Chaos Primarchs but completely at the mercy of their masters.

Hellebore
20-08-2010, 08:09
They're supposed to be found on the crone worlds. I'd say their orgies are so epic Slannesh can't help but keep them alive for the lols.

Hellebore

Shamana
20-08-2010, 08:15
Wasn't it mentioned somewhere that occasionally a few dumb ....s among the DE take to venerating Slaanesh as well? They don't have waystones, so they are going to get to him sooner or later. A few might be tempted to try to do it on more favorable terms.

Butcher of Vraks
20-08-2010, 08:23
They are servants beyond Abaddon, beyond even the Chaos Primarchs

Do you have a source for this - or is it just your opinion?

Hellebore
20-08-2010, 08:35
The only thing I can think of off the top of my head is in the 2nd ed codex:

Of all the servants of chaos there are few as truly damned as the eldar chaos champions, nor any as utterly at the mercy of their chaos masters.

Hellebore

Poseidal
20-08-2010, 11:26
Do you have a source for this - or is it just your opinion?

That's from Col. Tartleton's quote above.

If they are described as the 'greatest' then Abaddon and the Primarchs cannot be 'greater' therefore they they must be below the Eldar champions.

Zweischneid
20-08-2010, 11:37
That's from Col. Tartleton's quote above.

If they are described as the 'greatest' then Abaddon and the Primarchs cannot be 'greater' therefore they they must be below the Eldar champions.

Well, they are not literally described as "greatest" anywhere in that quote. It only says "there are few as truly damned".

And even if they were, I wouldn't take that at face-value as a sort of scientific scale you can use for inverse logic inferences. It'd be just elaborate writing, like Ultramarines are the "greatest" of Space Marines, but so are most other Chapters. Its fluff, not a written-in-stone definition.

massey
20-08-2010, 14:47
That's from Col. Tartleton's quote above.

If they are described as the 'greatest' then Abaddon and the Primarchs cannot be 'greater' therefore they they must be below the Eldar champions.

Yeah, but Col Tartleton's quote isn't to be found anywhere in the books. Hellebore has the actual quote.

But really, there's next to no information on them, just a line here or there, nothing definitive.

Poseidal
20-08-2010, 15:58
There you go then.

What did the realms of chaos books say? Was that the first mention?

Caelnaethon
20-08-2010, 16:36
As far as I know the best indicator of what the Chaos Eldar are like is the Harlequin Solitaire, a Harlequin who has given his/her soul to Slaanesh. They are deeply scary individuals. There's no definitive source to say that's what Chaos Eldar are like, but the connection to Chaos seems to be the single factor that turns the already powerful Harlequin into an unstoppable killing machine.

Londinium
20-08-2010, 16:40
I find it hard to believe that an Eldar that's in the service of a Chaos God is stronger than the demi-god that is a Daemon Primarch. Perhaps if one of the Phoenix Lords went over to Chaos we'd have a better comparision. But a normal Eldar?

mrln68
20-08-2010, 16:54
But a normal Eldar?

Although there isn't anything to indicate that Chaos Eldar would be superlative to say...a daemon prince - it wouldn't be hard to believe.

The psyche would need to be strong enough to prevent Slaanesh from eating the Eldar's soul...so that in and of itself would make them stronger than almost all the other Eldar out there.


As far as I know the best indicator of what the Chaos Eldar are like is the Harlequin Solitaire, a Harlequin who has given his/her soul to Slaanesh.

Never quite understood why people thought this. There isn't anything that I have seen that says a Solitaire has given their soul over to Slaanesh. There isn't anything to indicate that in the Web Codex, and the second edition codex says "When he dies his sould must be fought over by the Laughing God and the Chaos God Slaanesh"


What did the realms of chaos books say? Was that the first mention?

Not much. The only thing it mentions is that on the random army tables rolls that equal high elves in 40K are Eldar and rolls that equal Eldar in WFB are High Elves. Think the first mention of them as a distinct entry was in the 2nd Ed. unless it was covered in one of the myriad of RT articles in WD or another source.

Lord Zarkov
20-08-2010, 17:05
Never quite understood why people thought this. There isn't anything that I have seen that says a Solitaire has given their soul over to Slaanesh. There isn't anything to indicate that in the Web Codex, and the second edition codex says "When he dies his sould must be fought over by the Laughing God and the Chaos God Slaanesh"

It seems clear from what little background there is that the Harlequin Solitaire has 'forfeited' his soul to Slaanesh, but I agree this is not the same thing has having 'given' his soul over to Slaanesh, and to say that a Solitaire is gifted with power by Slaanesh is to my mind directly against the background.

Scribe of Khorne
20-08-2010, 18:03
I thought part of the process of becoming a solitaire was possession by a daemon on slaanesh, and they lost their soul as part of the process?

spetswalshe
20-08-2010, 18:11
I imagine the 'most damned' refers less to power or prowess and more to the sheer depths to which an Eldar can sink. I mean, they'd make Noise Marines look like an ork banging together a couple of sticks, what with their enormous imagination and amps that go up to 11.


n order to be a Chaos Eldar it means you are evil and powerful enough to convince Slaanesh not to eat your soul....

... for the time being, at least. When it comes to any of his worshippers sooner or later Slaanny's gonna get ya.

mrln68
20-08-2010, 19:29
It seems clear from what little background there is that the Harlequin Solitaire has 'forfeited' his soul to Slaanesh, but I agree this is not the same thing has having 'given' his soul over to Slaanesh, and to say that a Solitaire is gifted with power by Slaanesh is to my mind directly against the background.

I quoted the little background that there is. Slaanesh and the laughing god fight over the soul. For whatever reason, the Solitaire doesn't have the same protection that other Harlequins have when they die. I've never seen forfeited or anything close to that.

The WD article that introduced them says that they are believed to have been touched by the Great Harlequin himself.


I thought part of the process of becoming a solitaire was possession by a daemon on slaanesh, and they lost their soul as part of the process?

I have seen people post that online often - never seen anything from GW to even suggest that to be the case.


... for the time being, at least. When it comes to any of his worshippers sooner or later Slaanny's gonna get ya.

Eventually - but that still has to be a pretty bad ass Eldar who openly approaches Chaos and says I ain't afraid of you.

Clockwork-Knight
20-08-2010, 20:41
An eldar who's forfeited his soul to Slaanesh would be dead. And a slaanesh worshipper would never work with the harlequins, who fight chaos in all its forms. Solitaires however play the most dangerous role, that of the enemy, which sometimes means Slaanesh itself. The harlequin eldar are all about ultra-impressionistic dances that are psychically enhanced to tell an entire myth that has spanned over 60 million years till today. Being ultra-impressionisticly like Slaanesh, so that you can teach little eldar children what Slaanesh is does nearly damn your soul, as you must convey the lack of inhibition, the sensual greed, the desire for self-mutilation (without doing so if possible) and utter madness, without falling prey to those emotions in the first place.

Col. Tartleton
20-08-2010, 21:26
Yes for the record I shouldn't have put my thing in quotes as it wasn't verbatim. I was paraphrasing the exact quote provided by Hellebore as that is the only mention of them to my knowledge.

Abaddon would be stronger odds are, as he is the Everchosen equivalent of the entire galaxy but they'd have to be Chaos Lord level minimum. An Eldar's natural talent coupled with a long life devoted to war makes them on the level of space marines, and Eldar Chaos Lords would be comparable to Pheonix Lords.

If you wanted to portray one that's what I'd use. Karandas for a Khorne Mark, Jain Zar as a Slaanesh Champion, Maugan Ra for Nurgle, and Feugan as a Tzeentch Champion. Asurmen could do undivided. Baharroth could do one with Winged mutations or just epic wargear.

Mike_the_magi
20-08-2010, 21:54
I find it hard to believe that an Eldar that's in the service of a Chaos God is stronger than the demi-god that is a Daemon Primarch. Perhaps if one of the Phoenix Lords went over to Chaos we'd have a better comparision. But a normal Eldar?

One of them did....

Pg 56 of the Eldar codex (latest)

"He is not the Eldest of the Exarchs of the Striking Scorpions, for that honour belongs to Arhra the father of Scorpions, the most sinister of all Pheonix lords, a fallen pheonix who burns with the dark light of choas"

Doesn't help a lot as we don't know how powerful HE is either

EDIT: Oh right... it goes on in Fuegans Entry to say that the Dark Pheonix destroyed the Shrine of Asur, so I would say pretty damn powerful.

Lord Zarkov
20-08-2010, 21:57
An eldar who's forfeited his soul to Slaanesh would be dead. And a slaanesh worshipper would never work with the harlequins, who fight chaos in all its forms.
Forfeited as in Slaanesh will get it on his death due to the role he plays, not as in Slaanesh is munching on it now.

Although looking at everything it appears that itself might be no more than a fan embellishement of "When he dies his soul must be fought over by the Laughing God and the Chaos God Slaanesh" that I'd picked up, if that's genuinely all there is to it. I was under the impression however that Slaanesh usually wins the fight. Can anyone check if that's actually in the same source as the quote, or if it's just an embellishment?

So what is must be is that due to the efforts involved in performing Slaanesh the Solitaire becomes much closer in psyche to her than other Eldar which must start to override the hold the Laughing God would otherwise have on his soul due to the ritual - meaning Slaanesh and the Laughing God have to fight for it.

Caelnaethon
20-08-2010, 23:05
I was under the impression however that Slaanesh usually wins the fight. Can anyone check if that's actually in the same source as the quote, or if it's just an embellishment?
From 2nd edition Codex: Eldar:
"During the Harlequin ritual recitations he plays the part of Slaanesh, the Great Enemy, and to do so he must tread upon the most dangerous path of all, the Path of Damnation. When he dies his soul must be fought over by the Laughing God and the Chaos God Slaanesh, an uneven match which is likely to be won by Slaanesh unless the Laughing God can somehow trick the Great Enemy out of his prize."

Further, from the subsequent Harlequin mini-codex (I'm not entirely sure how official this is):
"It is postulated by Imperial scholars that a Solitaire has no soul
to speak of, and this may be true. They show no evidence of emotions and
psychic powers which attack the mind have no effect on them whatsoever.
...
When a Solitaire moves at full speed they are a blur of light,
faster than any other living creature."

So, there's something very weird about Harlequins that makes them very powerful individuals. As I said before, I can't think of anything other than their "damned" state that could account for it.

mrln68
20-08-2010, 23:51
Or - touched by the Great Harlequin themselves...as the WD 105 article says about the Solitaire?

Not sure what the odds are that the Solitaire's soul isn't eaten...but it definitely isn't a sure thing.

Hellebore
21-08-2010, 03:25
The quote from Caelnaethon shows that Slannesh more than likely wins:

"[...]an uneven match which is likely to be won by Slaanesh unless the Laughing God can somehow trick the Great Enemy out of his prize."

What is important though is that no harlequin wears a soulstone because they have gone through a ritual where their soul is sent straight to cegorach, protecting them forever from Slannesh.

The fact that Slannesh actually gets dibs on the Solitaire's soul must mean that either he doesn't go through the ritual and is at risk his whole life, or his representation of Slannesh overrides the ritual's protection.

Hellebore

alcarothar
21-08-2010, 04:36
One of them did....

Pg 56 of the Eldar codex (latest)

"He is not the Eldest of the Exarchs of the Striking Scorpions, for that honour belongs to Arhra the father of Scorpions, the most sinister of all Pheonix lords, a fallen pheonix who burns with the dark light of choas"

Doesn't help a lot as we don't know how powerful HE is either

EDIT: Oh right... it goes on in Fuegans Entry to say that the Dark Pheonix destroyed the Shrine of Asur, so I would say pretty damn powerful.

In "Path of the warrior" is reafirmed that Arhra is a eldar that has fallen to chaos and has destroyed the first shrine of the asur....
He is the only eldar with "name" that actually know who has fallen to chaos :eyebrows:

N0-1_H3r3
21-08-2010, 07:05
The fact that Slannesh actually gets dibs on the Solitaire's soul must mean that either he doesn't go through the ritual and is at risk his whole life, or his representation of Slannesh overrides the ritual's protection.
Or both. Or neither.

The way I'd seen it presented before - though I can't remember where at the moment - is that Solitaires exist as part of some ancient deal between Slaanesh and the Laughing God. Fundamentally, no Harlequin's soul goes to Slaanesh but that of the Solitaire because of this agreement (though the Laughing God can occasionally trick Slaanesh out of a Solitaire's soul), essentially treating the Solitaires as 'payment' for the safety of all other Harlequins.

Now, beyond that, my own rationalisations bring me to the conclusion that a Solitaire seems emotionless not because of their fate, but in spite of it. Obsessive focus and discipline to an inhuman degree both grant them the means to fight Chaos effectively, and to stifle their emotions and their will to experience... so that when Slaanesh claims them, their stoic denial of sensation is something bitter and displeasing to She Who Thirsts... that the only souls of defiant Eldar freely given are those who spurn joy and excess.

Hellebore
21-08-2010, 07:23
Or both. Or neither.


Not sure how you can claim that. The situation I outlined is a binary one - undergo ritual or don't undergo ritual. They can't be in both of those states simultaneously.

Hellebore

N0-1_H3r3
21-08-2010, 08:29
Not sure how you can claim that. The situation I outlined is a binary one - undergo ritual or don't undergo ritual. They can't be in both of those states simultaneously.
Well, certainly, I can't claim that both are true - that was me being facetious. However, it is possible that neither of the possibilities you claimed are true... there is room for a "something else entirely", given how little we know overall about the Harlequins.

Beyond that, standard boilerplate clause about how the influence of the warp allows for all manner of additional possibilities, many of which are inherently and/or deliberately contradictory to things like physics, logic and sanity.

Zweischneid
21-08-2010, 10:12
EDIT: Oh right... it goes on in Fuegans Entry to say that the Dark Pheonix destroyed the Shrine of Asur, so I would say pretty damn powerful.

True. But Phoenix Lords are quite powerful in the fluff to begin with. Hell, Maugan Ra's been doing solo-raids of the Eye of Terror and been busy single-handedly holding whole Tyranid Armies.

So Arhra would be in that kinda league whether or not he fell to Chaos. Not really a good representation of a "regular" Eldar who fell to Chaos IMO.

Caelnaethon
21-08-2010, 10:52
The fact that Slannesh actually gets dibs on the Solitaire's soul must mean that either he doesn't go through the ritual and is at risk his whole life, or his representation of Slannesh overrides the ritual's protection.
According to the Harlequin codex, "[Solitaires] have passed the sacred Ritual which all Harlequins must undertake." So it's more likely something like the latter.

Idaan
21-08-2010, 13:54
About the Chaos Eldar being the most powerful of the Chaos worshippers, there is a quote to that effect in WD127, near the beginning when it speaks about the Croneworlds. I can't provide the exact quote because I'm on holidays, but someone around here should be able to.

Zweischneid
21-08-2010, 14:52
About the Chaos Eldar being the most powerful of the Chaos worshippers, there is a quote to that effect in WD127, near the beginning when it speaks about the Croneworlds. I can't provide the exact quote because I'm on holidays, but someone around here should be able to.

Hmm. WD127 is from 1990, 8 years before the Dark Eldar actually got their book. And the quote doesn't say anything about power.

It just notes that "Even so, these planets [I]are not devoid of life, but are home to countless mortal followes and champions of the Chaos Powers as well as immortal daemons and their masters. Among the morgal inhabitants can still be found Eldar, some preserved since the time of the Fall, who champion the cause of Chaos on the Daemon Worlds and throughout the galaxy."

This quote actually comes before they decide to explain things like the fact that Eldar have pointed ears.

I think it's pretty safe to assume that, at that time at least, "Chaos Eldar" were indeed intended to be what eventually became the Dark Eldar.


That aside, the Khoradhil story in the 1998 Dark Eldar Codex obviously suggests that the Incubi are "Dark Striking Scorpion", or as the text says "the Fallen Warriors, the depraved followers of the Dark Father who had turned from the Light to the Shadows." The appearance of the Incubi turns the Scorpion Exarch from his cool calculating strategy to "burning hatred" almost instantly (and thus loses him the battle).

Thus, if Incubi and their Tormentor Helm are followers of/founded by Arhra the Chaos/Dark Eldar distinction is again much less clear-cut.

mrln68
21-08-2010, 14:59
I think it's pretty safe to assume that, at that time at least, "Chaos Eldar" were indeed intended to be what eventually became the Dark Eldar.

Huh? Where is the dark eldar bit in all that? It is a blurp about Chaos Eldar who follow Chaos and go on raids for Chaos both on daemon worlds within the Eye of Terror and outside the Eye of Terror. Nothing about that indicates dark eldar.

Zweischneid
21-08-2010, 15:06
Huh? Where is the dark eldar bit in all that? It is a blurp about Chaos Eldar who follow Chaos and go on raids for Chaos both on daemon worlds within the Eye of Terror and outside the Eye of Terror. Nothing about that indicates dark eldar.

It doesn't no. But it's pretty much the very first appearance of an Eldar Army list for a wargame It explains things like "they have pointy ears, created the Eye of Terror, and like to go to war with an Avatar" for pretty much the first time in 40K. The article made it into the 40.000K compilation as the basis of what is todays Eldar army.

And in just the second paragraph you get to read, before you learn that Eldar have point ears and long lives, they briefly note that there's "evil" Eldar out there too.

There is no distinction between Dark Eldar or Chaos Eldar or even "Craftworld Eldar" or "Exodites" because thoes do not exist yet. At that point in 40K's history, there's only been "good" eldar and those "still living in the Eye of Terror" as Chaos Champions.

The Dark Eldar as a more refined concept that isn't actually Chaos Eldar came alot later.

There is alot of other flaky stuff in this book too. There are Eldar Knights and Harlequins are still called by their fantasy name "War Dancers". I am just noting that fluff has moved on since 1990s.

Col. Tartleton
21-08-2010, 15:20
We'll get a much clearer picture when the Dark Eldar book comes out. Odds are they'll become more chaos saturated. I can handle that. As long as they're using the darkness to further their own goals and not serving it. Eldar don't do the whole subservient bit. Eldar aren't Chaos Space Marines and they certainly aren't human cultists.

While on one hand Cormmoragh exists within the web way, the web way is in the warp. Cormmoragh is probably within the boundaries of the Eye albeit protected by the web way. Same with the Black Library.

So the old idea that they are chaotic reavers pouring from the eye would make more sense if this was all consolidated. The whole "Slaanesh is sucking our souls out so we eat souls to replenish them" always seemed weird. It would make more sense if they were offering souls in their place periodically. A blood debt they owe at birth. In a way they serve slaanesh that way even if they want nothing to do with it.

Also if they take the Eldar pantheon and darken it enough that its borderline Chaos then they're where they should be fluff wise. Incorrigible fools who get high off their own evil and walk the fine line between survival and destruction. Just like all Eldar.

Shamana
21-08-2010, 22:04
So the old idea that they are chaotic reavers pouring from the eye would make more sense if this was all consolidated. The whole "Slaanesh is sucking our souls out so we eat souls to replenish them" always seemed weird. It would make more sense if they were offering souls in their place periodically. A blood debt they owe at birth. In a way they serve slaanesh that way even if they want nothing to do with it.

Also if they take the Eldar pantheon and darken it enough that its borderline Chaos then they're where they should be fluff wise. Incorrigible fools who get high off their own evil and walk the fine line between survival and destruction. Just like all Eldar.

I'd rather the Dark Eldar do NOT become another chaos faction, thanks. I think they'd lose a lot by becoming superpowered chaos cultists with pointed ears. The whole soul-drinking thing makes sense in a certain way - if their life energy is somehow being drained and they find a way to use others' to replenish it, of course they'd do that. **** Slaanesh, they have a problem and if some primitives have to die to solve it, so be it. You can consider it as an offering, but they are sacrificing the soul to themselves, not to the Chaos gods. It goes there eventually, but that's another story.

Also, the regular eldar pantheon definitely has a few deities the DEs could roll with. Khaine himself wasn't known as a particularly nice guy back in the day, either, and

Col. Tartleton
21-08-2010, 22:14
I'd rather the Dark Eldar became an army that used chaos rather than were used by it.

Abaddon is a pawn of Chaos. Vect is his own man. That sort of difference. Chaotic taint.

They're Chaos Eldar whether they like it or not. They're vampires. In sexy blade covered tight fitting body armored latex stockings. Who aren't really "bad guys" but you try explaining that to their enemies.

Nanananananananana! Batman!

95114

That picture is the best summary of what a Dark Eldar is.

Scribe of Khorne
21-08-2010, 22:22
Id far rather Dark Eldar stay as the desperate appeasers of Chaos that they seem to be (sometimes) portrayed as now. "Here take this soul, leave mine alone, thanks!" I dont want them to be in some way bartering as if they feel on an equal level.

An Eldar sworn to the service of Chaos would be a whole other animal, in my hopeful thinking anyway.

Shamana
22-08-2010, 11:29
I'd rather the Dark Eldar became an army that used chaos rather than were used by it.

Abaddon is a pawn of Chaos. Vect is his own man. That sort of difference. Chaotic taint.

They're Chaos Eldar whether they like it or not. They're vampires. In sexy blade covered tight fitting body armored latex stockings. Who aren't really "bad guys" but you try explaining that to their enemies.

Nah, I don't agree on that. Using Chaos and being used by it are nearly one and the same anyway, especially when the Chaos Boyz have the uber-chessmaster Tzeentch on their side. Abaddon probably doesn't see himself as a pawn either. I think the Dark Eldar may have some dealings with champions of Chaos anyway - didn't they help Ahriman get in the Webway when he was looking for the Black Library during the EoT campaign? Anything more would just pigeonhole them into the next race of Chaos helpers and set the old "good elf vs fallen elf" theme, and I personally would like to not have that in 40k.

I'm actually fine with their current idea as brutal, bitter decadents (with a dash of survivalists) who would do anything to get ahead, and that's that. They don't need more chaos, though, just like they imo don't need it in FB. Furthermore, half of their fluff was related to finding the most secluded, hidden spot to live in so they are as far away from Slaanesh as possible. If now they are supposed to be his/her/its/ b....s anyway, we may as well go through the old codices with a knife and recycle them as toilet paper.

Zweischneid
22-08-2010, 11:50
Nah, I don't agree on that. Using Chaos and being used by it are nearly one and the same anyway, especially when the Chaos Boyz have the uber-chessmaster Tzeentch on their side. Abaddon probably doesn't see himself as a pawn either. I think the Dark Eldar may have some dealings with champions of Chaos anyway - didn't they help Ahriman get in the Webway when he was looking for the Black Library during the EoT campaign? Anything more would just pigeonhole them into the next race of Chaos helpers and set the old "good elf vs fallen elf" theme, and I personally would like to not have that in 40k.

I'm actually fine with their current idea as brutal, bitter decadents (with a dash of survivalists) who would do anything to get ahead, and that's that. They don't need more chaos, though, just like they imo don't need it in FB. Furthermore, half of their fluff was related to finding the most secluded, hidden spot to live in so they are as far away from Slaanesh as possible. If now they are supposed to be his/her/its/ b....s anyway, we may as well go through the old codices with a knife and recycle them as toilet paper.

Hmm. I don't think there is so big a difference. It's not like the Chaos Gods sit together in a meeting room and put together a plan of "let's have that Abaddon guy invade Cadia and, if possible conquer Terra".

The Chaos Gods are a bit more abstract, manifestations of Emotions and Urges, a want for depravity, spilled blood or arcane intrique. Abaddon's plans and crusades are still his own and he is a master of his own destiny. The Chaos Gods don't care if he takes this planet or that, or whatever. Those ambitions are Abaddons own. He serves Chaos only to the extend that he chooses to do so in the name of Chaos, trying to cajole their favour.

It even goes for more mundane Chaos Followers. A Berzerker of Khorne isn't "ordered" by Khorne to do what he does. They go through their anger-enhancing lobotomy and all that of their own volition because they want to favour and please Khorne, not the other way around. As many Khorne threads point out, plenty of followers of Khorne lay claim to much more "noble" reasoning, arguing they are defending their honour, warrior's code or whatever. As long as they spill Blood, they still serve Khorne.

A Khorne Berzerker spreads violence, bloodshed and gore. A Dark Eldar spread hedonism, depravity and dark desires. They both serve their Chaos God in equal measure. Wether they "conciously" accept that or deny that fact is largely irrelevant.

Dark Eldar are also not just pragmatic "survivalists". The Dark Eldar Codex is pretty explicit that they "like" to torture things and inflict pain. They build devices that are not "efficient" war machines but purpose-build to inflict pain and suffering. They like having their dark "leisure" with prisoners whatever their final demise might be. They go to war with Warpspawn beasts and other foul creatures of Chaos.

Frankly, they are as much "Chaos" as any Human Slannesh Cultist on some Imperial World who revels in perverse pleasures and depraved practices because it's kinda his thing (and Slannesh thus favours him in turn and will one day claim his soul).

Shamana
22-08-2010, 12:47
I can agree with you about the Dark Eldar's actions pleasing Slaanesh with their depravity and excess - which imo may well be why they are still safe-ish in that hole in the webway. That kind of "veneration" I am fine with. I do NOT, however, want to see the Dark Eldar become chaos worshippers, abasing themselves for a little bit of favor. Yes, they are hateful, brutal decadents that don't care for anything except their own whims and how they can be fulfilled - but I'd say that the Dark Eldar, by and large, still have a kernel of self-preservation, whatever the cost for anyone else may be. When it comes to war, I still think that their equipment is quite functional and efficient in what it needs to do.

Also, I am not sure the warp beasts are chaos-affiliated, or of the DE using any chaos creatures at all. There is more in the warp than the chaos gods and their agents.

Zweischneid
22-08-2010, 13:00
I can agree with you about the Dark Eldar's actions pleasing Slaanesh with their depravity and excess - which imo may well be why they are still safe-ish in that hole in the webway. That kind of "veneration" I am fine with. I do NOT, however, want to see the Dark Eldar become chaos worshippers, abasing themselves for a little bit of favor. .

All depends on how you define "worshipping" or "veneration" of Chaos Gods.

Kharn doesn't have a little Shrine of Khorne next to his bed to say prayers at night. Kharn "worships" and "venerates" Khorne by splittling skulls. Dark Eldar "worship" and "venerate" Slannesh by ectatically torturing prisoners.

And Dark Eldar do abase themselves for a little bit of favour all the time.. that's the whole point of the race actually.

Whether a Chaos God's "favour" happens to be the ability to keep their soul a bit longer or to recieve a cool, spiky claw instead of your left arm is rather immaterial.

kane40k
22-08-2010, 20:48
? could they not just be Eldar that Broke from theyre Craftworld went to an exodite craft world as youths got promiscuous and whispered to and due to theyre Naievety diceded WHEEEEEY lets Worship slaanesh then everyone will like me and my orgies will be soooo much better.

there fore Damning themselves Willingly? whats Hardcore about that? i mean what if they promise theyre soul to slaanesh for higher rewards...

I also thought that The Dark Eldar Didnt Worship Slaanesh but Sacrificed and tortured inorder to please slaanesh in the hope that theyre soulds will not be taken as they will cure slaanesh's Hunger...

Scribe of Khorne
22-08-2010, 23:15
All depends on how you define "worshipping" or "veneration" of Chaos Gods.

Kharn doesn't have a little Shrine of Khorne next to his bed to say prayers at night. Kharn "worships" and "venerates" Khorne by splittling skulls. Dark Eldar "worship" and "venerate" Slannesh by ectatically torturing prisoners.

And Dark Eldar do abase themselves for a little bit of favour all the time.. that's the whole point of the race actually.

Whether a Chaos God's "favour" happens to be the ability to keep their soul a bit longer or to recieve a cool, spiky claw instead of your left arm is rather immaterial.

We saddly know very little of what kind of ritual or worship takes place when the Chaos Powers are concerned. Khorne is fairly easily, as its been stated in the canon several times that (paraphrasing) "There are few rituals in the name of the Blood God, as He is worshiped on the battle field", however the other gods could certainly have rituals, that would be used to promote and generate the emotions desired by the gods.

The Dark Eldar however always seemed to strike me as something different. They didnt worship, or venerate Slaanesh, but instead feared Her/Him/It and sought to find ways to maintain their own soul by tainting the souls of their slaves/prisoners through various devious means and offering those up, as mentioned before a kind of appeasement.

There has been so little put out recently on the DE, we may see it all change in November, but I have never thought of them as Chaos aligned at all, and the fact that the Harlequins seem to be involved with them as much as they are the Craftworld Eldar would seem to indicate that the DE are not fans of Chaos at all.

Hellebore
23-08-2010, 00:19
What I think Zweischneid is saying is that although the dark eldar may not be deliberately worshipping Slannesh, they are indirectly worshipping slannesh through their actions. Just as a guardsman killing people is inadvertently 'worshipping' Khorne.

Hellebore

massey
23-08-2010, 02:44
I think Zweischneid and I probably see eye to eye on this. The problem is, the Dark Eldar are very poorly defined right now, and there's not really any difference between the behavior of a Dark Eldar and a Slaanesh cultist. They are pretty much identical as they are currently described. Yes, they're "afraid" of Slaanesh, but that doesn't seem to stop them from pretty much engaging in Chaos worship.

And that's the problem. People have sort of constructed this argument where they say that Dark Eldar aren't really serving Slaanesh, but the only thing the Dark Eldar haven't done is hang up his symbols everywhere. That's a distinction without a difference. It's also not enough to separate them from Chaos, thematically. They really need a change in characterization when the new codex comes out.

mrln68
23-08-2010, 03:09
The difference though, is that Eldar understand the nature of Chaos (and Slaanesh)...I don't think it would be possible for them to "worship" them.

They know the mechanics involved, they know why Slaanesh exists, they know what Slaanesh wants from them. It is more like paying off the mob to leave your business alone than it is tithing to the church to hope you receive God's graces.

Zweischneid
23-08-2010, 08:51
The difference though, is that Eldar understand the nature of Chaos (and Slaanesh)...I don't think it would be possible for them to "worship" them.

They know the mechanics involved, they know why Slaanesh exists, they know what Slaanesh wants from them. It is more like paying off the mob to leave your business alone than it is tithing to the church to hope you receive God's graces.

True.

But the point is that there's little substantive difference between the two if "the mob" is indeed a Dark God capable of divine feats and "graces" and/or "the God's church" is largely a mob-style-business specialized on depravity, decadence and ignoble vices headed by a rather actively involved divine being that does favour/disfavour his disciples.

The distinction in your real world example rests largely on the fact that one requires on an act of "faith" to a force never truly material (and presumably benign) while the other does carry the very real threat of the mobsters coming down on your head if you miss a payment. This distinction by and large doesn't exist with Slannesh.

Iracundus
23-08-2010, 09:01
True.

But the point is that there's little substantive difference between the two if "the mob" is indeed a Dark God capable of divine feats and "graces" and/or "the God's church" is largely a mob-style-business specialized on depravity, decadence and ignoble vices headed by a rather actively involved divine being that does favour/disfavour his disciples.

The distinction in your real world example rests largely on the fact that one requires on an act of "faith" to a force never truly material (and presumably benign) while the other does carry the very real threat of the mobsters coming down on your head if you miss a payment. This distinction by and large doesn't exist with Slannesh.

There is a key difference: Slaanesh desires to consume the souls of Eldar. The Dark Eldar are desperate to avoid this fate, and are thus in conflict with Slaanesh's wishes.

This is a distinct frame of mind and intent from that of worship of Slaanesh as a divine patron as practiced by Slaaneshi cultists or Champions with the Mark of Slaanesh. In the latter, there is veneration not only of Slaanesh's behavior and ideals but also desire to please their god, and ultimately to serve or have union with their god.

This distinction when it comes to the metaphysics of the warp and the mystical rules it operates by is important. That is why rites of worship and ritual trappings or materials exist for the Chaos gods (and even for other gods such as Khaine and the Avatars). Acts done in the name of a god or for the purpose of pleasing a god or attracting their attention are more significant than acts done for other motives.

Zweischneid
23-08-2010, 09:42
There is a key difference: Slaanesh desires to consume the souls of Eldar. The Dark Eldar are desperate to avoid this fate, and are thus in conflict with Slaanesh's wishes.

This is a distinct frame of mind and intent from that of worship of Slaanesh as a divine patron as practiced by Slaaneshi cultists or Champions with the Mark of Slaanesh. In the latter, there is veneration not only of Slaanesh's behavior and ideals but also desire to please their god, and ultimately to serve or have union with their god.

This distinction when it comes to the metaphysics of the warp and the mystical rules it operates by is important. That is why rites of worship and ritual trappings or materials exist for the Chaos gods (and even for other gods such as Khaine and the Avatars). Acts done in the name of a god or for the purpose of pleasing a god or attracting their attention are more significant than acts done for other motives.


I disagree. I don't think the difference is key. Slannesh is ultimately not interested in "souls". He's not the devil. And I don't think the motives for actions matter.

Chaos gods are manifestations of emotions, in the case of Slannesh these are lust, excess, pleasure, perfection and hedonism. Slannesh grows and thrives on these. Dark Eldar by their actions supply them as any other Slannesh worshipper does.

Whether Slannesh gets his "followers" to spread those things by using the carrot ("I'll give you a nice, shiny claw") or the stick (".. or else I eat your soul") is a difference in strategy.. but not a fundamental difference in what it's all about. Ritual trappings exist because they matter to the followers of a Chaos God, not the the Chaos God himself.

Whether his "followers" want "unity with Slannesh" or be rid of his influence doesn't matter to Slannesh as long as they do his will.. spread hedonism, depraved pleasures, etc..,. Dark Eldar do that better than anyone.

That's why Dark Eldar are among his "most truly damned servants". If Slannesh would just gobble up all Dark Eldar souls right now, he wouldn't win anything and lose his perhaps finest tool in the box. But the threat of taking their souls keeps them bound to his will and purpose.

Iracundus
23-08-2010, 10:17
I disagree. I don't think the difference is key. Slannesh is ultimately not interested in "souls". He's not the devil. And I don't think the motives for actions matter.

Slaanesh is absolutely interested in souls. That is why Slaanesh and his greater daemons make such a point of devouring Eldar souls as evidenced in past stories such as the tale of battle between Iyanden and corrupted Slaaneshi cultists culminating in the Keeper of Secrets devouring a Banshee's soulstone, before in turn being defeated by the Avatar. Tthe story appears in Epic Renegades, the 2nd edition Epic supplement.




Whether Slannesh gets his "followers" to spread those things by using the carrot ("I'll give you a nice, shiny claw") or the stick (".. or else I eat your soul") is a difference in strategy.. but not a fundamental difference in what it's all about. Ritual trappings exist because they matter to the followers of a Chaos God, not the the Chaos God himself.

Not true. The ritual trappings matter which is why there is such a thing as sacred numbers of a Chaos god. It is also why there is sympathetic magic in which substances or acts associated with the god are more likely to succeed in summoning daemons of that god. It is also why in the original Realms of Chaos it even describes the gods haggling over the conditions for wars over the daemon worlds in the Eye of Terror. In particular it notes that Slaanesh of all the gods is the most particular about setting ritual conditions.

The symbolic particulars matter when it comes to things of the warp. An act of symbolic debauchery with ritual materials or actions of value to Slaanesh is worth more than being debauched because of your own motivations.



That's why Dark Eldar are among his "most truly damned servants". If Slannesh would just gobble up all Dark Eldar souls right now, he wouldn't win anything and lose his perhaps finest tool in the box. But the threat of taking their souls keeps them bound to his will and purpose.

You are mixing references. The quote you mention from the 2nd edition Eldar Codex refers to Chaos Eldar, in particular those within the Eye of Terror either deliberately spared by Slaanesh or recreated by Slaanesh, which is NOT the same as Dark Eldar. Your mistake is in confusing and equating these two as the same. The Chaos Eldar are the most damned because they are beholden to Slaanesh in a way that no normal human is, because all Eldar souls released into the Warp go to Slaanesh and are devoured by Slaanesh. They are thus doomed to go to Slaanesh if they die, and doomed to be Slaanesh's puppet (and to exist only at Slaanesh's whim) nonetheless if they remain a Champion. Such a default damnation fate is not what awaits human souls which for the most part dissolve into the warp and do not retain coherence or consciousness after death.

Noon
23-08-2010, 10:21
There is a key difference: Slaanesh desires to consume the souls of Eldar. The Dark Eldar are desperate to avoid this fate, and are thus in conflict with Slaanesh's wishes.


This. DE enslave and torture to buy time - they're throwing distractions to Slaanesh as he stalks after THEM. Slaanesh absolutely wants eldar souls most of all - but he's incidentally partial to those acts of depravity the DE perform.

Slaaneshi cultists can live in the eye, they can be gifted by Slaanesh to perform acts of depravity more effectively or whatever - but Slaanesh has no interest in living DE as playthings...

Shamana
23-08-2010, 10:59
I agree. On the other hand, I can't deny that the torture and pain the Dark Eldar so love to spread pleases Slaanesh as well... not as much as their souls would, perhaps, but it's something. I think that s/he/it is deliberatively not going after the DE as hard as s/he/it can.

The dark eldar, as far as I can tell, don't venerate Slaanesh because they don't do any of those things with the exact intent of pleasing him/her/it. They do it because they like it. I'm not even sure most of them realize Slaanesh likes it, but if they do, I doubt they care much. At most I'd say it is an attitude like "and if it keeps the B...h off my soul for a little while, so much the better."

Clockwork-Knight
23-08-2010, 12:41
As has also been said, all that blood-shed in the name of the emperor, the cultural stagnation, the orgiastic reverence of the saints, and the eternal treachery done by the imperials also strengthens the ruinous powers, yet they're all worshippers of the emperor (or the starchild, however you see it).

Orks going on a Waaagh! also strengthen Khorne, but the greenskins are still beholden to their twin gods Gork and Mork, who swat such puny beings like the brass hound of war aside.

massey
23-08-2010, 14:33
People come to Chaos for a variety of reasons. The Word Bearers came because they were looking for gods to serve. Are the motivations of the Dark Eldar similar to the Word Bearers? No. But what about the other legions?

The World Eaters follow Khorne because he likes what they like. They were already a ruthless, brutal legion. They were doing lobotimies on themselves before they ever found out about Chaos. They just happily waltzed into the service of Khorne because, well, it's what they do.

The Emperor's Children sought perfection in all things. Once they were exposed to what Slaanesh offered, even though they had no idea it was a supernatural being, they craved it. They wanted every bit of excess that they could find. Their old delights were no longer enough. They didn't even know about dark gods until their leader was possessed by a demon. Yet they were already in the service of Slaanesh.

The Death Guard made a pact because they were afraid. They were dying to one of Nurgle's plagues, and they made a deal to save themselves.

The Thousand Sons weren't trying to worship Tzeentch at all. They were going to try to understand the forces of Chaos, to use it to their own advantage. In fact, some of them still believe that. But, knowingly or not, they serve Tzeentch.

The motivations of the Dark Eldar fall much more in line with the motivations of the 4 Cult Legions than they do with general Chaos cults or Undivided Legions like the Word Bearers. It doesn't really matter to me if it's a pragmatic form of worship. What the Dark Eldar do is akin to island natives throwing the virgin into the volcano to keep it from erupting. There have been many gods throughout history whom people have worshiped through fear. Not every god is kind and loving, and not every follower wants to be one with their god. In fact, many worship to try and prevent that very thing.

Remember, Eldar are afraid of becoming trapped on a particular path. They see exarchs as heroes, but also a thing to be pitied, because it means that you can never experience anything other than battle. All Eldar feel an attraction to Slaanesh, because it represents their darker side. Any kind of kinky sex that they've secretly fantasized about, weird drugs, the fast-paced lifestyle of a rock and roll band, all of it is found in Slaanesh. He's their god of temptation, and he tempts them with things they want. But they fear it, because they know that once they go that way, there's no coming back. They'll never experience the simple joy of watching a sun rise, or smelling a flower, bouncing a baby on their knee. Simple, wholesome things are gone. What does it mean when Slaanesh eats your soul? It means you're part of Slaanesh now, forever. And that's terrifying to an Eldar, because while part of them really does want to experience that, they know it's permanent. Welcome to the Hotel California. You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.

EDIT: Remember, what happens to a Dark Eldar when he or she dies? They go to Slaanesh. If Asdrubael Vect's Raider gets shot by a meltagun, he wakes up inside Slaanesh. And he knows this. They all know it. They could go and get soulstones if they wanted, but they choose not to. Why? Because part of them is very curious to see what Slaanesh has to offer. It's part of the rush.

Slaanesh is like a really hot goth chick who is into lots of weird stuff. She's gonna tie you up. She's gonna cut you with a little razor, then lick the blood. She'll snort cocaine off your junk. But with Slaanesh, you don't have to worry that you're gonna catch AIDS or anything like that. You'll never get old, you'll never die. And she'll never untie you. Alluring, and yet, terrifying at the same time.

Clockwork-Knight
23-08-2010, 15:30
Or perhaps soulstones don't work, if you're so unhinged and without any restrictions, which is why craftworld eldar don't suddenly go around behaving like slaanesh cultists although they get a nifty gem-stone.

Also, Slaanesh is not the goth-chick, it's a blob of filth and smoke that likes to bath in acidic vomit and run barefoot on electrically charged razor blades while a billion dynamite sticks explode in its ass, and this tremendous pain is a exquisite sensation, that a true slaanesh worshiper seeks.

Dark eldar inflict pain, but can't take it, nor do they ever want it.
That's because they have no idea how to relieve their feelings of impotence than to hate and lash out at mon-keighs, who prosper, while they hide and fear.

abasio
23-08-2010, 15:48
In my mind Dark Eldar and Chaos Eldar are like a dead man & a sleeping man. Both might look almost identical on the surface but underneath everything is completely different.

Obviously with the dead/sleeping man example all the systems are alive in one while nothing is happing in the other.

With the DE and CE I think that while an outside observer wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the two it is what lies beneath the surface that counts, their motives and feelings.

Dark Eldar fear Slaanesh, hate her and would do anything to avoid her gaze, even if their behaviour feeds She Who Thirsts, they are not purposefully trying to strengthen her. They are doing what they feel is necessary to survive and even enjoying it for the simple pleasure it gives them, not because they think it will make Slaanesh stronger.

Chaos Eldar have given themselves over to Slaanesh, they don't fear her (or at least fear her less than normal/dark eldar) and their actions are designed to strengthen She Who Thirsts. They kill & torture in the correct way, so as to give as much pleasure & strength to Slaanesh and they do it for that exact reason.

A dark eldar might help a craftworld eldar is they were in trouble and it would not hurt the DE or endanger them even a little bit.

A chaos eldar would slaughter the craftworld eldar for a bit of fun.

IMO

massey
23-08-2010, 15:49
Or perhaps soulstones don't work, if you're so unhinged and without any restrictions, which is why craftworld eldar don't suddenly go around behaving like slaanesh cultists although they get a nifty gem-stone.

Of course they work. Craftworld Eldar don't run around acting like that because they're Space Mormons who ran off to Space Utah to leave behind their corrupt society.


Also, Slaanesh is not the goth-chick, it's a blob of filth and smoke that likes to bath in acidic vomit and run barefoot on electrically charged razor blades while a billion dynamite sticks explode in its ass, and this tremendous pain is a exquisite sensation, that a true slaanesh worshiper seeks.

No, Slaanesh is a god of temptation. Now, the longer you go, the more perverted you get. That's why I aimed my example at something I thought the average Warseer member would understand, alluring, yet scary.


Dark eldar inflict pain, but can't take it, nor do they ever want it.
That's because they have no idea how to relieve their feelings of impotence than to hate and lash out at mon-keighs, who prosper, while they hide and fear.

Baloney. Dark Eldar take pain quite well. That's one of the handful of tidbits that's actually in their codex. After all, Homonculi self-experiment all the time. Some Grotesques used to be Dark Eldar (and some used to be other things). It's pleasure and pain, together. It's like being with a chick who bites so hard she draws blood, or leaves big scratches on your back with her fingernails. At the time, it feels good. Pleasure and pain, together. But with the Dark Eldar, and with Slaanesh, it's more extreme.

Clockwork-Knight
23-08-2010, 16:01
Of course they work. Craftworld Eldar don't run around acting like that because they're Space Mormons who ran off to Space Utah to leave behind their corrupt society.No, those were the exodites.


No, Slaanesh is a god of temptation. Now, the longer you go, the more perverted you get. That's why I aimed my example at something I thought the average Warseer member would understand, alluring, yet scary.And also wrong, because that leads all the time to ignorant people thinking Slaanesh is only about sex (and therefore a good and lovable god/dess, which is getting annoying reading this on the internet)


Baloney. Dark Eldar take pain quite well. That's one of the handful of tidbits that's actually in their codex. Then please quote that piece. I don't have my codex (which was in german anyway) at hand.

After all, Homonculi self-experiment all the time. But they don't inflict pain on themselves. That is reserved for the poor slaves thrown at their feet, who might be space marines or another dark eldar who made his archon really angry.

Some Grotesques used to be Dark Eldar (and some used to be other things). How many of them were ever willing?

It's pleasure and pain, together. It's like being with a chick who bites so hard she draws blood, or leaves big scratches on your back with her fingernails. At the time, it feels good. Pleasure and pain, together. But with the Dark Eldar, and with Slaanesh, it's more extreme.The dark eldar are sadists, not masochists.
Slaanesh is all about insane forms of sado-masochism that goes beyond the imagination of all that lives, and never should be experienced or thought about in the first place.

Of course, so far, the dark eldar are nothing more but a bunch of suckyeldar that get curb-stomped by space marines in the trillions, and go awaken c'tan who hate all eldar. The dark eldar finishing their path of descend by being slaanesh-eldar who stroke their dicks all the time wouldn't be that surprising anymore.

So yeah...

Shamana
23-08-2010, 16:05
Or perhaps soulstones don't work, if you're so unhinged and without any restrictions, which is why craftworld eldar don't suddenly go around behaving like slaanesh cultists although they get a nifty gem-stone.

They probably would work, but remember, the waystones aren't a perfect solution. The soul of the Eldar is imprisoned with them, aware but completely impotent to do anything but hope some kind soul would take it to the craftworld infinity circuit or whatever the exodites have and release it. It involves a good deal of impotence, of hope and of trust. It involves voluntarily making yourlself a prisoner for a chance you might rejoin your ancestors in a slightly larger prison.

Obviously, the whole system has a few problems as far as the Dark Eldar are concerned. Not the least of which is that waystones can only be found on croneworlds, and you have to pretty literally get to hell and back to get them.

Slaanesh is temptation personified, as well as quite a few other things, and the Eldar have a very, very intimate connection with it. However, at least how I understand it, veneration and worship are much more positive feelings than those both craftworld and dark eldar feel towards it. They don't offer others' souls to Slaanesh, they take them for themselves to replenish their own.

Mechanically, the result is the same, but the motivations are different. In that, I believe they are different from the legions that fell to Chaos - whatever their initial reasons, now they are champions of their gods and fight and kill in their name. That is what the chaos eldar do. The dark eldar's actions may benefit Slaanesh, but if that is veneration, then the eldar are venerated every time the farseers manipulate the Imperium or the Orks to do their dirty work ;)

Clockwork-Knight
23-08-2010, 16:17
They probably would workIf they would work, then why aren't there a bunch of super-perverted ultra-slaanesh-like craftworld eldar terrorizing the galaxy?

Why follow the path and wheep yourself to sleep when thinking about Slaanesh, if you have a soulstone and be safe from the hermaphrodite crab-claw-vomit-feeder that rips its face apart and rubs the wounds in salt for fun?

Shamana
23-08-2010, 16:42
Hey, it would work in trapping the soul inside so it doesn't go to the Warp. Congrats, you are now stuck in a bauble for all eternity, or at least until someone breaks it and releases you.

Well, as I see it, there are some reasons why the Craftworld eldar mostly keep their stuff together. First, because the ruling elite of the craftworld doesn't like it if some young punks behave in a way that might attract demonic attention and mess it up for everyone. Those who don't like the paths in the craftworld are given two options: to put it bluntly, either get their hindsides in order, or take their stuff and **** off. Or, as the Eldar so nicely call it, take the path of the wanderer. If they didn't, there's no guarantee that a sufficiently sick or dumb idiot wouldn't, willingly or not, mess up the craftworld's defenses and cause a demonic invasion, like the one that annihilated Kher-Ys.

The second is that as I said, the whole waystone->soulstone->circuit thing it's a tricky process at the best of times, so most eldar don't do something to make it even harder on themselves. Without an infinity circuit, all you are left with is a little bubble that imprisons your conscience for ever and ever, giving you absolutely no control over what happens to you? It might beat being Slaanesh's junkie/gofer/ elf toy by a very small bit, but isn't exactly a paradise either. Not to mention that the craftworlders might not necessarily want such *******s in their infinity circuit anyway, even if they do get your stone. And if they break it so they can reuse the stone for their own, hey, it's Slanny time again. Not to mention that a sufficiently decadent sect may start attracting daemons anyway - most Eldar are aware their ancestors, when left to their own devices, managed to clustersquick Slaanesh into existence, so they might be a little careful about letting their hair loose.

Well, the last part is a bit of a conjecture. There ARE a lot of moderately perverted eldar bastards terrorizing the galaxy, such as the various non-Dark-Eldar corsairs or some of the less principled rangers. It's just that this can be a much more dangerous existence. Not to mention that if the Eldar go out of their way to mess up everyone, they might find themselves a bit higher on everyone's to-do list, particularly that of the Imperium.

Clockwork-Knight
23-08-2010, 17:35
Being trapped in a magic stone is preferable for the eldar than being eaten by Slaanesh, which is why they devised that method in the first place.

Also, even the corsairs only do some brutal killing and pillaging, whereas dark eldar pirates do the torturing stuff too.

So why aren't the craftworlders, who are protected through their soul-stones, acting in acts of cruelty and debauchery that puts a dark eldar to shame?

Why are the craftworlders who follow the path of the wanderer only moderately perverted (if at all)?

If the craftworlder's soul-stones would also work on the dark eldar, who have to hide in the webway, so that they don't loose their souls, why doesn't any dark eldar have them in the first place, even if they have to steal them? Continued existence as some kind of superdoom-titan is preferable than being munched by Slaanesh, and dark eldar lords like Asdrubael Vect or that other guy who was the target of an assassination by a young dracon don't have a problem with sending thousands of their warrior to their deaths to achieve a goal.

Meh, in the end, the cock-sucking background lore of the dark eldar is bad, so why not? There are already Slaanesh-worshipping dark eldar, and retard-dark eldar, and one-trillion-mook-dark eldar, so having soulstones-dark eldar and orang-utan-dark eldar is all that is missing, and possible.

massey
23-08-2010, 19:04
No, those were the exodites.

Exodites are more like the Amish. They take a "back to nature" approach. The Craftworlders don't want to give up the conveniences of modern life. They like air conditioning and all that. But they were absolutely religious pilgrims who built arks to escape their society. They're Space Noah.


And also wrong, because that leads all the time to ignorant people thinking Slaanesh is only about sex (and therefore a good and lovable god/dess, which is getting annoying reading this on the internet)

But it's not wrong. Slaanesh is about sensual excess. From fine silks, perfumes, exotic music, Slaanesh covers a wide range of sensation. It just so happens that the best example for an early 21st century human is sexual.


Then please quote that piece. I don't have my codex (which was in german anyway) at hand.

I will when I get home.


But they don't inflict pain on themselves. That is reserved for the poor slaves thrown at their feet, who might be space marines or another dark eldar who made his archon really angry.
How many of them were ever willing?
The dark eldar are sadists, not masochists.

They do inflict pain upon themselves. They are sometimes willing, sometimes not. And they have both sadism and masochism.


Slaanesh is all about insane forms of sado-masochism that goes beyond the imagination of all that lives, and never should be experienced or thought about in the first place.

Of course, so far, the dark eldar are nothing more but a bunch of suckyeldar that get curb-stomped by space marines in the trillions, and go awaken c'tan who hate all eldar. The dark eldar finishing their path of descend by being slaanesh-eldar who stroke their dicks all the time wouldn't be that surprising anymore.

So yeah...

Slaanesh was formed from the emotions of the precursors of the Dark Eldar, who lived the exact same lifestyle as the Dark Eldar today.

Shamana
23-08-2010, 19:12
Well, these are all personal interpretations. I'd say the Dark Eldar just can't envision the soulstone system very well; at the very least when one is put in a soulstone they are completely at the mercy of the others, and that mercy is probably lacking. Besides, those powerful enough are already well-protected and hard to kill; the rest don't matter. They probably know about soulstones, and enough craftworld renegades have ended up in Comorragh that the higher-up DEs can easily get one. Maybe a few even do - although, as I said, I have huge problems imagining any dark eldar of note trusting another with his soul. Ending as a titan is fun. Ending as your former lieutenant's gembound assistant/playtoy/kick puppet, so she can take out on you all the frustration s/he has built up from when you were the boss, is not.

So yeah, the practice could exist - though personally I think it would be extremely rare. Another limiting factor is that waystones are extremely rare. That imo is why there aren't all that many craftworld eldar either - waystones can only be found on crone worlds in the Eye of Terror. I think there was also a way to use the captured soulstones as weapons by tormenting the soul inside to insane rage.

Why the craftworld eldar aren't acting like complete asses is another story; I'd say they designed the entire path thing and all those restrictions on themselves so they don't end up like their ancestors. It's part of the current craftworlder culture. As I said, those who can't keep up with it eventually leave the craftworld to become rangers or pirates. By the way, some of them end up more than moderately perverted, I was just talking about large groups. Those that fall too far either get themselves killed (including by "regular" rangers, as Dark Heresy and its supplement books noted) or eventually end up among the Dark kin anyway.

massey
23-08-2010, 20:20
Then please quote that piece. I don't have my codex (which was in german anyway) at hand.
But they don't inflict pain on themselves. That is reserved for the poor slaves thrown at their feet, who might be space marines or another dark eldar who made his archon really angry.
How many of them were ever willing?
The dark eldar are sadists, not masochists.


Well, you asked.

Page 8 of the reprinted Dark Eldar codex (it's in the sidebar under the Grotesque entry):

All Dark Eldar take pleasure in suffering, especially in the infliction of pain. There are some who have become so obsessed by this need for torture that they have even turned upon their own bodies. Others are less voluntary about their twisted, manipulated flesh, having fallen victim to the attention of the Haemonculi through some real or perceived misdeed, or by simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time.


Being trapped in a magic stone is preferable for the eldar than being eaten by Slaanesh, which is why they devised that method in the first place.

Also, even the corsairs only do some brutal killing and pillaging, whereas dark eldar pirates do the torturing stuff too.

So why aren't the craftworlders, who are protected through their soul-stones, acting in acts of cruelty and debauchery that puts a dark eldar to shame?

Because, as I said, they're religious puritans. They know what created Slaanesh in the first place. They are trying to get away from that kind of lifestyle. It's like asking why a Mormon doesn't go out and whore it up, if they know their soul is saved anyway (or any other Christian sect that believes in irrevocable salvation). They don't do it because it's not right.


Why are the craftworlders who follow the path of the wanderer only moderately perverted (if at all)?

We haven't seen any evidence on this at all. I imagine that craftworlders follow the path of the wanderer for different reasons. Some probably do go and join the Dark Eldar.


If the craftworlder's soul-stones would also work on the dark eldar, who have to hide in the webway, so that they don't loose their souls, why doesn't any dark eldar have them in the first place, even if they have to steal them?

Exactly. Why don't they? Obviously they choose not to. But why?


Continued existence as some kind of superdoom-titan is preferable than being munched by Slaanesh, and dark eldar lords like Asdrubael Vect or that other guy who was the target of an assassination by a young dracon don't have a problem with sending thousands of their warrior to their deaths to achieve a goal.

Is it preferable? Is it really? The Dark Eldar certainly don't live a safe lifestyle. They live on the edge, where they absolutely know that they're going to die one day and go to Slaanesh. So why live so fast and loose? Because some part of them is fascinated by the idea.

The Venerable Archmage
24-08-2010, 23:35
I agree with previous comments that Craftworlders stick to their conservative path system partly on moral grounds, but partly because out-of-control eldar are likely to attract the attentions of daemons. There is, after all, no point protecting yourself with a soul stone if your neighbour goes and accidentally summons a daemon who eats you and your little soul stone too.

But soul stones are part of a larger plan, one orchestrated by high-ups amongst the craftworlders, the exodites and the harlequins. In gathering together the souls of so many eldar into the craftworld infinity circuits and the exodite world spirits, they hope one day to suceed not only in saving their own souls but in releasing themselves from Slaanesh's grip by bringing into being the god Ynnead.

Clearly the Chaos Eldar are directly opposed to this plan as they have given themselves willingly to Slaanesh, or sought some manner of sanctuary with another god.

Where the Dark Eldar fit into this scheme, however, I do not know. I do not think it is at all likely that they are directly collaborating in the Ynnead scheme, although, as eldar schemes are so inscrutible, they might have some part to play. For all that they do not enjoy a cordial relationship with their craftworld cousins, they don't appear to bear a genocidal intent towards each other, either.

And the dark eldar manage to be at least civil to the harlequins. This, I think, is a clincher for me: if the dark eldar and chaos eldar were synonymous with each other, the harlequins would only ever meet them on the battlefield. Instead, troupes do, if I recall correctly, visit Commorragh and sometimes draw recruits from the dark eldar.

I don't know what the dark eldar are up to, but here's the thing - I'm not sure they know, either. They seem so mixed up and nonsensical because they're addicts. They want to indulge themselves, but they also do their very best to avoid the consequences of this indulgence. They deceive themselves, and I wonder if perhaps they hate themselves also, having been trapped by their own vices.

Yes, their plan to distract She-Who-Thirsts by throwing her titbits, and to prolong their life by stealing the souls of others, seems pretty stupid compared with the careful and sensible approach of other more conservative eldar factions, but for all their sophistication, dark eldar are desperate, obsessed and blinded to reason by their addiction to the lifestyle their people enjoyed before the Fall.

If their background and motivations don't seem rational or sensible, might it be because they are neither of these things?

Flawed
25-08-2010, 03:29
On the relative power of chaos eldar. There's a blurb on p. 128 of the rulebook that mentions Karadras and Ahra fighting for 17 days in M41. So Ahra might have been more powerful than all the other Phoenix Lords back in the day but now they've come up to his level individually.

Just what the relative power levels of the Phoenix Lords is though...on the one hand, Karadras got smushed by a mere dreadnought. On the other, Maugan Ra took out a huge Nid beastie.

Actually, I'm not sure if that helps place the relative power of chaos eldar at all now...

Col. Tartleton
25-08-2010, 04:23
I'm with Massey on this. Dark Eldar chose to be bad. They could have been craftworlders. They chose the darker path. If they were just trying to avoid Slaanesh they wouldn't dress or act six hundred and sixty six shades darker black then the Imperium. They'd just take souls and use them for their purposes. Its not like the CWE are above something like that. They just found a different method.

Hellebore
25-08-2010, 05:03
I'm with Massey on this. Dark Eldar chose to be bad. They could have been craftworlders. They chose the darker path. If they were just trying to avoid Slaanesh they wouldn't dress or act six hundred and sixty six shades darker black then the Imperium. They'd just take souls and use them for their purposes. Its not like the CWE are above something like that. They just found a different method.

Yup, this is what I was talking about in the 'harlequins in dark eldar codex' background thread.


Dark Eldar are yuppies who, rather than give up their indolent lifestyle, have been given the opportunity to keep it running on the blood of hobos. What is the blood of one hobo to the glorious life of a yuppy?

Hellebore



Hellebore

Mike_the_magi
25-08-2010, 13:27
On the relative power of chaos eldar. There's a blurb on p. 128 of the rulebook that mentions Karadras and Ahra fighting for 17 days in M41. So Ahra might have been more powerful than all the other Phoenix Lords back in the day but now they've come up to his level individually.

Just what the relative power levels of the Phoenix Lords is though...on the one hand, Karadras got smushed by a mere dreadnought. On the other, Maugan Ra took out a huge Nid beastie.

Actually, I'm not sure if that helps place the relative power of chaos eldar at all now...

The way I saw that duel (though I haven't actually read anything but that sentance about it) is that staying with the Striking Scorpions modus operandi of being the sneaky stealthy hunters, I doubt it would be seventeen days of straight fighting.

I think it would have been seventeen days of stalking each other, hit and run attacks, minor skirmishes where a few blows were stuck, traps being set and run into. Kahandras is noted as being the Patient hunter rather than being bloodthirsty killer that Arhra is meant to be from what I had reard. So I think it was more Kahandras not dying and outsmarting his counterpart. Doesn't say much in the scheme of sheer power scales either way.

Shamana
25-08-2010, 20:29
Well, if Arhra alone could raze the Shrine of Asur, which iirc was implied to have been defended by several Phoenix lords (Fuegan stayed, this implies the other had to flee), then he must have been one heck of a fighter. I'd say Karadras surviving 17 days against him isn't half bad, especially considering how well scorpions normally fare against incubi ;)

elvinltl
26-08-2010, 06:22
To simply matters, why not just go for Dark Eldar? lolz