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RanaldLoec
20-08-2010, 10:19
Right I’m organising an epic sized game involving 6 veteran players and possible eight different armies. Where looking at a game size of 20,000 points at the minimum.


On the side of the Grand Alliance we have:

Empire, Lizardmen, High Elves and Bretonnia

On the side of the Forces of Destruction we have:

Warriors of Chaos, Demons of Chaos, Skaven and Dark Elves

I have already written some pre battle fluff for each general and army. I’m encouraging each of the generals to create there own special characters.

We will sit down and revise house rules and any special characters to ensure there are no over powered death machines that will or game breaking problems to try to ensure a smoothly run game.

What I would like from the Warseer community is suggestions for dealing with magic.

I have two lines of thought each

1)Using the magic rules as they stand just upping the power limit pool and the number of dice rolled.

Something like 5D6 giving a power dice pool limit of 30

The dispel pool being the two highest dice plus a D3.

I like this option for the size of the game is simple and quick. I’m mindful of magic dominating the game but at the size where playing losing a few units to magic in the armies being fielded won’t be that much of an issue.

Or

Each general has a separate pool of power dice generated as normal so 2D6 with a limit of 12.

The problem with this come with generating dispel dice for the opposing generals.

I know there are some threads covering this topic but not at this size.

Your thoughts good sirs, lady’s and trolls.

Please also take a look over the army specific terrain / rules I have tried to keep them in character for the armies there aimed at eg The Skaven / Warriors of Chaos rules are powerful but also destructive to there own side if it gos wrong.


Demonic rift

The power of the warp surges though the rift strengthening all the demonic servants of the four dark powers.

Any units from the Demons of Chaos book within 18'' of the Demonic rift gain a +1 to their ward save. This bonus cannot make a ward save better than 4+.

Any spell casters from the Demons of Chaos army book within 20’’ gain +2 to there casting rolls this includes bound level casters.


Chaotic Standing Stone

An ancient standing stone dedicated to the four powers stands near by bestowing the gifts of the Gods on any followers that beseech there dark Gods for aid.

Any unit from the Warriors of Chaos book within 12’’ of the chaotic standing stone may roll once on the eye of the Gods table. Each unit may only roll once per game.


Massive Warp Stone Meteorite

Eons ago during the fall of the Old Ones a massive wrap stone meteorite fell to earth tainting the surrounding lands. On discovering the evil taint in the land and dwarf Ancestor Gods placed powerful runes of warding to halt the evil influence of the warp stone. After thousands of years these runes have begun to fail and the power of the warp stone has begun to taint the land once more.

Any Skaven unit within 12’’ can choose to digest some of the pure unrefined warp stone. If it does the Skaven player should roll on the following table to see the results. Each unit can only roll once.

1 The warp stone ravages the bodies of the rats quickly turning them into unrecognisable lumps of flesh. 2D6 members of the unit die no saves of any kind allowed.

2) The warp stone sends the unit into a delirious crazy, the unit becomes immune to psychology.

3) The warp stone sends the Skaven metabolism into over drive. The unit gains frenzy, if the unit already has frenzy this becomes Death Frenzy as per the skaven spell. Like normal frenzy this can be lost if beaten in combat.

4) The warp stone hardens the flesh of the skaven to the leathery constitution of a troll. The unit gains a 5+ scaly skin save for D3 turns.

5) The warp stone sends energy coursing though the muscles of the Skaven giving them unprecedented levels of strength. The unit gains a +2 strength bonus for D3 turns.

6) The warp stone sends arcs of dark power cascading over and between the Skaven army. At the start of a magic phase the Skaven player should declare he is using the ability. Every warlock engineer and Greyseer gets +2 to their casting rolls for one turn only Multiple rolls of 6 have no further effect and this ability can only be used once.




Geomantic Nexus

A relic of the Old Ones original geomantic network still survives in this area calming and channelling the winds of magic to the will of the Old Ones Servants.

Any skink priest within 12’’ of the Geomantic Nexus can channel power or dispel dice on a 5+

Once per magic phase a Slann Mage Priest with four disciplines of the ancients can use the geomantic network to channel the winds of magic into the network denying the enemy the power to cast spells. The Slann can target the enemy’s power pool and can remove D6 power dice.

On a roll of a natural 1 the attempt fails and the Slann unleashes power from the network. The opposing player can roll a D6 and add the number of dice to his pool even if it takes it above 12.



Imperial Bastion

The Emperor himself has ordered the construction of a great bastion on the coast to form a bulwark against the constant raids from Druchii and Chaos marauders. Paying for the finest dwarf stone masons from the Imperial coffers the Bastion has been built to last, intricate wards and enchantments have been placed upon the bastion by Wizards from the Jade Order having blessed the waters and land surrounding the bastion to reinvigorate and revive tiered and injured soldiers

Any Empire or High Elf units within 8’’ of the bastion walls gain a 5+ regenerate special rule.


Blessing of the Lady

The Bretonnion army has sworn a vow to the Lady of the Lake to rid the lands of men of the filth of chaos, determination and righteous angry sits in the fair knight’s hearts.

All Bretonnion Errant Knights, Knights of the Realm, Questing Knights, Grail Knights, Paladins and Lords gain the hatred special rule. This can be lost in the same way as the blessing of the lady.

CaptainFaramir
20-08-2010, 10:28
I think the 2d6 per player option is better. This prevents the High Elves being able to give all the power dice in the pool to Teclis/Archmage with BoH every turn for non-stop IF. It also means no-one is left out/everyone will bring some magic and get involved in every phase. However, i would also have a natural cap at 36 (i.e. rolled cap) and an absolute cap at 48 (channelling, Banner of Sorcery dice, etc.)

However, I think the dispel dice should be a pool that can be used to dispel ANY wizard.

For example:
Empire = [3+4] = 7
High Elves = [1+5] = 6
Lizardmen = [4+6] = 10
Bretts = [3+5] = 8

Total = 31 (but there would be a natural cap at 36, with the option of channelling, magic item bonus dice up to 48).

So for [6,6] [5,5] [6,4], [5,4] = 36 power dice (even though 41 rolled.) Dispel dice is still 22 dice.

Each army must use its own power dice (including any channelled or from magic items... only High Elves can use Banner of Sorcey power dice).

Dispel Dice = [4+5+6+5] = 20

These dice can be used to dispel ANY spell by ANY one. So if you wanted to just dispel the Empire spells, and choose to let all the others through that is fine. No need to allocate dice to a dispelling army.

Oglog
20-08-2010, 10:32
or you could just use 7th rules for generating dispel and power dice PLUS the winds of magic.

caster: 2D6 power dice + one for every wizard level. channeling as usual
dispeller: highest of the 2D6 plus 1 for level 1/2 and 2 for level 3/4. channeling as usual

sounds like fun!

chilledenuff
20-08-2010, 11:12
I think the 2d6 per player option is better. This prevents the High Elves being able to give all the power dice in the pool to Teclis/Archmage with BoH every turn for non-stop IF. It also means no-one is left out/everyone will bring some magic and get involved in every phase. However, i would also have a natural cap at 36 (i.e. rolled cap) and an absolute cap at 48 (channelling, Banner of Sorcery dice, etc.)

However, I think the dispel dice should be a pool that can be used to dispel ANY wizard.

For example:
Empire = [3+4] = 7
High Elves = [1+5] = 6
Lizardmen = [4+6] = 10
Bretts = [3+5] = 8

Total = 31 (but there would be a natural cap at 36, with the option of channelling, magic item bonus dice up to 48).

So for [6,6] [5,5] [6,4], [5,4] = 36 power dice (even though 41 rolled.) Dispel dice is still 22 dice.

Each army must use its own power dice (including any channelled or from magic items... only High Elves can use Banner of Sorcey power dice).

Dispel Dice = [4+5+6+5] = 20

These dice can be used to dispel ANY spell by ANY one. So if you wanted to just dispel the Empire spells, and choose to let all the others through that is fine. No need to allocate dice to a dispelling army.

I like that, seems an elegant and fairly simple way of sorting it out wihout magic becoming overpowerful. I'll keep that for when/if I play large multiplayer games.

knauden
20-08-2010, 12:03
Eg. High elves begins to throw magic.. rolls 2d6, defending players get the highest dice as usual..
Then after him the next army rolls for magic and the defending players get the highest.. and so on, until every army had their magic phase.

Ignore the channeling rule for both sides.

RanaldLoec
20-08-2010, 12:09
Please review the original post I've added a first draft of some army specific terrain and rules let me know what you think bear in mind there open to change or to diffenet surrgestions.

I've not written anything for the Druchii contingent yet, but I may make it similar to the brets and just add an army wide rule as there Druchii ain't going to be that big a part of the force

RanaldLoec
20-08-2010, 12:13
I think the 2d6 per player option is better. This prevents the High Elves being able to give all the power dice in the pool to Teclis/Archmage with BoH every turn for non-stop IF. It also means no-one is left out/everyone will bring some magic and get involved in every phase. However, i would also have a natural cap at 36 (i.e. rolled cap) and an absolute cap at 48 (channelling, Banner of Sorcery dice, etc.)

However, I think the dispel dice should be a pool that can be used to dispel ANY wizard.

For example:
Empire = [3+4] = 7
High Elves = [1+5] = 6
Lizardmen = [4+6] = 10
Bretts = [3+5] = 8

Total = 31 (but there would be a natural cap at 36, with the option of channelling, magic item bonus dice up to 48).

So for [6,6] [5,5] [6,4], [5,4] = 36 power dice (even though 41 rolled.) Dispel dice is still 22 dice.

Each army must use its own power dice (including any channelled or from magic items... only High Elves can use Banner of Sorcey power dice).

Dispel Dice = [4+5+6+5] = 20

These dice can be used to dispel ANY spell by ANY one. So if you wanted to just dispel the Empire spells, and choose to let all the others through that is fine. No need to allocate dice to a dispelling army.

Still simply and as chillenduff put it quite elegant Thanks

shelfunit.
20-08-2010, 12:22
or you could just use 7th rules for generating dispel and power dice PLUS the winds of magic.

caster: 2D6 power dice + one for every wizard level. channeling as usual
dispeller: highest of the 2D6 plus 1 for level 1/2 and 2 for level 3/4. channeling as usual

sounds like fun!

Fun for whomever got the first turn and thus automatically won the game.

Only one of the evil armies relies on magic and two of the order armies, both of which have numerous ways of increasing the number of power dice they generate through bought abilities. This said there should be no reason to scale up the magic phase at all, as it will take forever with the number of dice, and would probably result in about a third of the opposing force being removed each turn.

Sorry for sounding grumpy in this post.

RanaldLoec
20-08-2010, 12:39
Ah so people have an idea of the scale of forces as folloews

These are the points split roughly between the armys

Empire 7500 (Me) Player 1

Lizardmen 7500 Player 2

High elves 4000 Player 3 controls 2 armies to make up his points
Bretonnians 3500



Skaven 7500 Player 4

Warriors Of Chaos 5000 Player 5 controls 2 armires to make up his points
Demons 2500

Dark Elves 4000 Player 6 again has two armys to make up his points
Skaven 3500

I hope this helps you consider the impact magic will have on the different armys

These points may change and fluctuate depending on what players can field.

Heimagoblin
20-08-2010, 12:51
I think the deamon one is to powerful and the lizardmen one is underpowered. I think the deamon one should be the +2 to cast aswell as returning 1d3 deamons to each unit with 24 inches per deamon turn.

As for the lizards, I would let them tap into the nexus to cast a super spell, something like putting a mountain range of suitable size where they want on the table and being able to move it d6+1 inches per turn in the form of an additional spell, cast on 7+. That would be cool. Anyway, just spouting idea's. Feel free to ignore them.

xeno106
20-08-2010, 13:18
Why not just let the magic be and have a good fight? Except if you really want to blow things up in the magic phase.

CaptainFaramir
20-08-2010, 13:28
In term sof the special terrain features:

Daemons I think the daemons do not need the +2 to cast. The +1 Ward within 20" is very powerful on its own, even given their low numbers.

LizardmenI think the lizardmen one is balanced however if you include Slaan in the channelling rule - bearing in mind that the Lizardmen player is taking 7500 points, it is potentially a lot of channelled dice!

Skaven[/B] This is good provided that all/any unit can eat. I.e. more than one can be affected like the Warrior of Chaos Standing Stone.

Warriors of Chaos This could be a bit OP unless they LOSE the benefit outside the 12" zone/only get it if they START the battle in the 12" range. A 12" circle has an area of approx 120 square inches, which could be a LOT of units benefitting and if they can move in and move out, you could be getting a lot of warhound units with 4+ Ward Stubborn! (ha!)

High Elves/Empire Feels a bit like you ran out of ideas? (And to be fair you have already had a lot of good ideas!) The regen for the Empire sounds good. For the high elves, why not try something like:

Celestial Destiny: The High Elves have joined battle today not out of solidarity for their human brethern but in order to fulfil some higher plan. Rarely, do the children of Ulthuan appear in such force upon the shores of the Old World - their need must be great.

All High Elf Princes/Nobles gain +1 to hit against the generals of each evil faction (combined with ASF/re-roll on higher I, this is quite powerful 2+ re-rollables? Ouch.

All High Elf Arch/Mages gain +1 to cast against all units containing the general of each evil faction army. And direct damage spells at the general ONLY (and mount) will cause an additional hit (e.g. Fireball would be d6+1)

The High Elf player may not cast any spells that would buff a non-High Elf unit (selfish buggers)

Malorian
20-08-2010, 13:43
One thing I'll say about big games (I've now played two 10K per side games) is that you need a big table and you need to have spread out objectives so that one side can't just pack all their things on one flank.


As far as magic goes you need to stop empire from just generating a bunch of extra dispel dice via warrior priests, and then I would be very reluctant to add very many dice to the game. You see these big magic phases can get out of hand (back in 7th) and I wouldn't want you to ruin your awesome game with it. As such I would suggest each casting player getting D6 power dice, and each dispelling players getting d3 each (comes out as the same average ratio as normal: 7-4 = 14-8).

EbonhartLegions
20-08-2010, 13:57
please tell me there will be a battle report

treben1234
20-08-2010, 14:04
Don't use 7th ed magic....NOOOOOOOOOOOOO. It WILL double the length of the game. An extra 4-5 hours. Just let people roll 3d6 power dice and take the 2 highest. If you have extra just give them to another player who has not maxed out. That will give you 48 power dice in total. More then enough.

I'm not kidding I played agenst High Elf's in 7th at 3000pt with Vampire Counts. Half the game was spent rolling spells, if not more.

Garion
20-08-2010, 14:07
Don't use any magic, just have a good old fashioned fight. Also the evil guys have got this one in the bag already ;)

honorandglory
20-08-2010, 15:37
When we did our mega battle, we broke magic generation into tables( of which we had 6). And only the wizards on that table could use those dice. If multiple people were on a table with their army then they had to evenly divide the dice between them.

Ymir
20-08-2010, 18:09
For a game this large, I'd consider having several different winds of magic for different areas of the board. For example, you divide the board into 6 pieces (20 000/6 is 3000, which seems to be considered the maximum points value where 2d6 power dice works well), each with a different 2d6 winds of magic; any spellcaster can utilize only the power generated in the area where he is at the moment. Same goes with dispel dice; so warpriests, for example, can only dispel spells originating from their own winds of magic-area.

This could make the placement of spellcasters interesting from a tactical standpoint. Do you chose to spread them out to take maximum advantage of the local winds, or keep them together to form a magical spearhead, for example if you find that the enemy dispel:ers are spread out much more, hoping that the winds of magic will be with you?

This solution would also, quite possibly, keep imbalances in check by making each specific spellcaster unable to utilize more dice than she could in any normal game.

RanaldLoec
20-08-2010, 18:22
Ok thanks for the replies guys Iíll try to give a general idea of each terrain piece and its positioning it might help.

The board is going to be quite large looking at an T shape each X represents roughly a square foot.

The O represents the Imperial Bastion. The D represents the Demonic Rift. The W the warp stone meteor and the G the Geomantic Nexus.

The terrain pieces wont be massive the largest will be the Geomantic Nexus which is a painted Mayan style block pyramid which is 8'' by 8''.

The warp stone meteor will be one of the craters think ice berg its massive under neath the earth lol.

The Demonic rift will have a base no bigger than 3 inch in diameter as will the Chaotic Standing Stone.
ignore the dashes there so I can get a rough shape of the board as spaces disappear when I post the diagram.

-----XXXX
-----XXXX
-----XXXX
-----WXXX
XXXXXXXXXXDX
XXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXOOOOXXXX
GXXXOXXOXXXX


The victory conditions will be in set points for completing certain tasks, killing certain characters or holding certain areas of the board.

Example

The High Elves gain 5 points if they can destroy Níkari (for those of you without all the army books NíKari is a greater demon of Slannesh that Teclis has defeated in battle before). NíKari is going to get some rules written up shortly by the demon player.

The Skaven gain 10 points if the Warp Stone Meteor is in their possession and uncontested by the end of the game.

The Empire gain 10 points if they hold the Bastion against the enemy by the end of the game.

I'm still only in the very early stages of drafting allot of this.

The idea is that the players get in character for their armys, so the people near the skaven and dark elves may need to watch their backs.

Captain Faramir

Thanks Iím going to use your idea for the high elves and modify if a little I did get a little bored and lazy when it came to the Empire and High elves I feel Iíll be changing the rules for the Imperial Bastion.

Iíll also have a bit more of a think about the Chaotic Standing Stone.

To win the game the Imperial Bastion really needs to be taken to do that the Skaven, Demon and Chaos warrior players will have to move away from their magical terrain which kind of counters the effects.

To balance this out only the high elves and a small force of empire infantry will be allowed to deploy in the Bastion to stop any cryís of favouritism.
I really need to think of something for the Druchii as Ulthuans dark kin have just jumped up to 7500 and will replace all the skaven in player 6ís army



Malorian

I'm the only empire player and I don't intend on doing the dispel dice spam dance with my warrior priests this game is meant to be fun for all involved . I only own 1 arch lector and 3 warrior priest models in 20,000 points I think even 5 dispel is going to be like pissing in the wind.

Its really funny to watch but the splash back gets a bit messy.

Xeno106

We absolutely love to blow crap up in the magic phase, the shooting phase and we want to blow crap up in the close combat phase. There will be bits of miniatures spread for miles around after this game

Treban1234 and Shelf Unit

NO fear about the 7th ed magic I'm going to stick to something similar to 8th ed Iíve been discussing it with some of the players and were thinking with the number of wizards that are going to be knocking about that channelling will play a big part in the battle so we may limit the power dice pool a little more than we where going to.

Ebon Heart Legions

God are you trying to kill me man you want a battle report, I will try top photograph the board each turn and scribble a few notes but I donít want this to slow the game down. We have a month or so of planning to do then we need to organise when every one is free to play we may be looking at a two day job so its going to be a while before we actually play the game.

Honor And Glory

We want the battle to feel HUGE so where going to try to fight it all on one board. If its doesnít work well were English and were a stubborn bunch of ****** ******* and donít like to admit were wrong.

Any way I need to crack on thanks for the input

Malorian
20-08-2010, 18:24
I played my 10K games on a 9X5 foot board and had no problem.

Duke_Corwin
20-08-2010, 18:51
I would do each player's magic phase separately. Roll 2d6 each time as normal. Any unused dice (spell or dispel) not used are lost. After a player finishes roll 2d6 for the next player and so on.

This will make it fair for everyone. No one will get too many dice at one time.

shelfunit.
20-08-2010, 19:56
I played my 10K games on a 9X5 foot board and had no problem.

A ping-pong table? I've always looked at those as excellent tables - big enough to have a "normal" 6ft x 4ft game with plenty of space for books dead-pools etc, but also able to accomodate much larger games, like you have said.

Malorian
20-08-2010, 20:00
Yup a ping pong table :)

The games took us about 6 hours, but then again that's with long magic phases of 7th but just one person per side so no needing to talk over tactics.

I would plan for your game to be about the same amount of time or longer.

Alltaken
20-08-2010, 20:27
I'd recommend that you allow any spell to be able to be tried to cast twice. Even if stopped from happening. But not on a failure to cast.

That allows for magic to happen and for enough defence against this

honorandglory
20-08-2010, 20:28
Honor And Glory

We want the battle to feel HUGE so where going to try to fight it all on one board. If its doesnít work well were English and were a stubborn bunch of ****** ******* and donít like to admit were wrong.

We had 6 6x4 tables all arrange in a u shape. Each 6x4 table rolled 2d6 for magic and only the wizards on that particular table could use those die. If more than one preson had a wizard on the particular table dice were distributed evenly between them. The same mechanic was used for Dispell dice. Sorry about the confusion with my earlier comment. We also had any "Whole Battlefield" style spells only affect within 3 feet of the caster so that the game would go faster and smoother.

Bloody Nunchucks
20-08-2010, 20:39
i would just roll 2D6 for each 3000k points of troops per side, so a 10k army would get 6D6 power dice and the opponent would havethe 3 highest dice

Ymir
21-08-2010, 02:25
I think simply increasing the dice rolled can prove problematic in that a caster will be able to use much more dice than he's normally entiteled to. For example, if one planer makes a mistake and puts an important model in a bad position, a nearby caster could use his entire repetoire of spells with 6 dice each against that specific model, and thus, practically, be able to cause much more damage than normally. This would in effect punish a player who commits a mistake much more heavily than regular games can do, and I don't like that at all. It would also make important models and units in general much more vulnerable to magic, because the enemy could just concentrate the sheer power of all those power dice on them.

Not good, I say. There needs to be some cap on how much dice from that vast pool a single caster is allowed to use.

RanaldLoec
21-08-2010, 07:26
Hi guys well I'm setting off to work soon but I've quickley read though your more recent posts.

Honor And Glory

I get ya now I like the system of splitting the winds by tables limiting magic users on each table to that tables pool.

Ymir

You make a good arguement we about limiting the pool hopefully by splitting it by table this will help stop karios or teclis spamming. God could you imagine either of those two with 6d6 power dice to use.

SilasOfTheLambs
21-08-2010, 17:48
When we did a mass battle in our gaming club, we gave each player a designated opponent for magic, and kept the magic system as it stands, just with six or seven sort of mini-magic phases happening at once.

The advantages: it's faster, it keeps the balance more or less intact, and it prevents wizard-spam, or evil gribbly strategies like giving all your dice to teclis/that one life slann/the loremaster chaos lord with gateway.

The disadvantages: if you let a spell through that targets anybody's unit but yours, that person has no chance to do anything about it, and is likely to shout and throw rocks at you.

We found it worked pretty well, all considered.

Good luck, and please post a batrep :)