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DaemonReign
20-08-2010, 16:39
There's 3 things here that I'm gonna run by You.

1 - Does the Gyrocopter march and shoot?
2 - What about the partials?
3 - What about the 'fleeing Gyrocopter'.

- It seems to us that RAW indicates that that the Gyrocopter CANNOT march and shoot. This is the way we've played in 8th so far anyways..

- It seems to us that even though AB's are supposed over-rule the BrB - in this particular case the Dwarf AB reference to Gyrocopter flame-template partials simply refer to a rule that Does Not Exist anymore: Therefore we are implementing the 8th Ed system of 'No Partials' when using the Gyrocopter steam-cannon.

- 8th Edition states that flying units Do Not use their Fly Movement when Fleeing, and the Gyrocopter has no other movement - so according to RAW (in other words) a Gyrocopter that breaks from combat is automatically destroyed just like any other warmachine. This, however, is Not how we've played it so far (even though there's some fluffy sort of sense to it, of course), instead we let the Gyrocopter actually Flee using it's normal (swiftstride) 'flee dice-roll'.

In comprehending the rules as stated above we feel/hope that we let the Gyrocopter be "just about right" for its point-cost. For example, letting it "march And shoot" would probably make it a little bit to cheap in terms of points (especially if there are no partials, and especially if you're gonna let it be able to flee).

Of course, we could just as well let it "march And shoot" while letting it be destroyed "as a warmachine" if breaking from CC.

The only thing we're overwhelmingly sure if is the "no partials" thing - because that one seems to just be a fundamental part of 8th Ed.

Thoughts?

Malorian
20-08-2010, 16:43
1 - Does the Gyrocopter march and shoot?

No

2 - What about the partials?

No partials

3 - What about the 'fleeing Gyrocopter'.

It can't flee

DaemonReign
20-08-2010, 16:46
3 - What about the 'fleeing Gyrocopter'.

It can't flee

Thanks! (All though my Dwarf playing friend won't be happy!;))

I'm gonna assume this is simply to be concidered a Rule rather than a subjective interpretation.(?)

Lord Zarkov
20-08-2010, 16:50
2 - What about the partials?

No partials

Does the Dwarf book say 'partials as usual' or does it explain how partials work (i.e. 'models partially hit are only hit on a 4+'). If it is the latter case then you would still follow the rules for partials, as Jervis explains in his article on the GW website (as army book >> Rulebook)

DaemonReign
20-08-2010, 16:53
Does the Dwarf book say 'partials as usual' or does it explain how partials work (i.e. 'models partially hit are only hit on a 4+'). If it is the latter case then you would still follow the rules for partials, as Jervis explains in his article on the GW website (as army book >> Rulebook)

Well it's my friend's book so I'm no expert, but I am pretty sure the Dwarf-book actually has an explanation of its own for the flamecannon partials..

Jesus.. My Dwarf-playing friend is gonna be really unhappy with these clarifications. :D

Malorian
20-08-2010, 17:34
What I said for 1 and 3 are RAW, and what I said for 2 is a grey area... but RAI heavy is in favour of no partials just like everyone else.


Edit: At least the gyro wasn't as screwed over as the flame cannon...

Stymie Jackson
20-08-2010, 17:52
Jervis cleared it up actually in his steadfast articles.

The Gyro is the ONLY war machine in the game that does partials. Army Book over BRB. Yep, a 2nd rare model that is totally useless.

Makes me think we're getting new rare units in about a year or so.

So...

Cannot march and shoot. Never really a concern and expected.
Has to roll for partials. Wonderful, a S3 template that is nearly useless against anything more than 20mm base.
Can't flee,charge,pursue.

The last seems totally against an obvious RAI, but since partials would have seemed the same way, the only answer is to use RAW. RAI does not apply to the Gyro thanks to Mr. Jervis. As such, you have to use RAW for the whole War Machine. As written, it cannot flee/pursue/charge and has partials. If one of those is true, then by extension both have to be true.

Actually, the only answer is to leave that piece of junk out of your army list. It's been castrated even worse than the FC.

So in that regards, I hope dwarf armies don't lose comp points for only having a bunch of GTs and cannons since they are the only decent war machines now. Organ Gun ain't too shabby either still. So I guess 1 out of 3 rares being usable ain't bad.

Good thing I decided to finish collecting Brets.

narrativium
20-08-2010, 19:22
The last seems totally against an obvious RAI, but since partials would have seemed the same way, the only answer is to use RAW. RAI does not apply to the Gyro thanks to Mr. Jervis. As such, you have to use RAW for the whole War Machine. One of Games Workshop's most senior games developers took a moment to include this important distinction in an article published on Games Workshop's own website. This sounds to me to be as close to RAI as you can possibly get.

Brother Siccarius
20-08-2010, 19:32
I fail to see how one rule not changing means that it's "castrated". It's just as effective as it was before the edition change. Actually it's, in essence, one of the only models capable of doing a breath-weapon-like attack multiple times a game.

theunwantedbeing
20-08-2010, 19:38
I thought the previous Dwarf FAQ (version 1.0) clarified that the gyrocopter doesnt have to roll for partials.
Seems the newest one doesnt have that anymore.

How strange.

Formosa
21-08-2010, 02:26
i shall now demonstrate the stupidity of RAW,

page 42, 5th paragraph, a gyrocopter that chooses to FLEE, so it can flee .. and then die lol

anywho i cant seem to find anything on flying monters on the big book, can anyone tell me how they flee, or even if they exist?

Urgat
21-08-2010, 08:35
The Gyro is the ONLY war machine in the game that does partials. Army Book over BRB. Yep, a 2nd rare model that is totally useless.

It's useless because it has partials :wtf:
ANyway, if I were to play a dwarf using a gyro, I'd allow him no partials, if nothing else to gain some time over both the argument and the doing partials itself, and for consistencies sake.
As for the non fleeing issue, I'm not touching that one, I've decided to ignore questions where people blatantly ignore common sense on purpose from now on. After all they're cheating, the BRB tells you to use it and they choose not to >>

DaemonReign
21-08-2010, 09:25
Well then, we've obviously been cutting our Dwarf playing friend alot of unintended slack.

Here's my conclusion after reading this thread so far:

1 - The Gyrocopter has partials according to RAW, but it wouldn't be too strong on the stomach (since we only play friendly games) to disregard this fact.

2 - The Gyrocopter cannot Flee/Persue and Stymie Jackson also says it can't CHARGE(?). That last bit can't be right.. Can it? I mean, if the thing can't charge on top of everything else, then What can you actually do with it? In 7th it was a really good unit in Fleeing and Rallying in the same turn (bating frenzy units etc).

3 - It can't march and shoot.

So the only thing it's got on the plus side is the fact that it can fire its template-weapon once every shooting phase.

Wow.. Somehow I feel my buddies are gonna feel about this about the same way that I feel about Awesome Strength not granting S10 Stomps..

My friend has got 3 or 4 Gyrocopter models.. I wouldn't have the heart to enforce these RAW-rules on him now that he's all excited about this Dwarf-collection again..

Formosa
21-08-2010, 09:42
It's useless because it has partials :wtf:
ANyway, if I were to play a dwarf using a gyro, I'd allow him no partials, if nothing else to gain some time over both the argument and the doing partials itself, and for consistencies sake.
As for the non fleeing issue, I'm not touching that one, I've decided to ignore questions where people blatantly ignore common sense on purpose from now on. After all they're cheating, the BRB tells you to use it and they choose not to >>

QFT, i actually consider RAW cheating sometimes, i play by commom sense and enforce this in the local club, so if necessary we fill in the gaps lack of playtesting promotes, in short we allow the copter to flee 2d6 untill the faq sorts it out, no partials and cannot fire while marching.
Its not just this its things like old special rules etc. we always use the most up to date version, 3+SSHild force weapons etc. you all would be amazed the arguments we all had untill we got rid of RAW

solkan
21-08-2010, 10:51
2 - The Gyrocopter cannot Flee/Persue and Stymie Jackson also says it can't CHARGE(?). That last bit can't be right.. Can it? I mean, if the thing can't charge on top of everything else, then What can you actually do with it? In 7th it was a really good unit in Fleeing and Rallying in the same turn (bating frenzy units etc).


As long as the gyrocopter can fly, it can make the gliding charge described for flyers in the main rulebook. It's fleeing that specifically causes fliers to walk, and thus causes a problem for gyrocopters.

DaemonReign
22-08-2010, 09:51
in short we allow the copter to flee 2d6 untill the faq sorts it out, no partials and cannot fire while marching.

yeah this is exactly how we've been playing it as well in 8th, except we actually let the Gyro flee 3d6 inch (because if you disregard the fact that it can't move at all - as per RAW - then the only Movement you've got left is the actual fly-movement - there's nothing else to have as basis given that it doesn't seem sensible that the Dwarf crewman runs away like Fred Flinta).