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Post
21-08-2010, 16:55
The High Lords of Terra comprise of -

* The Master of the Administratum
* The Inquisitorial Representative
* The Ecclesiarch of the Adeptus Ministorum
* The Fabricator-General of the Adeptus Mechanicus
* The Grand Provost Marshal of the Adeptus Arbites
* The Paternoval Envoy of the Navigators
* The Master of the Astronomican
* The Grand Master of the Officio Assassinorum
* The Master of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica

The remaining three positions are most likely to be filled from among the following powerful leaders:

* Lord Commander of the Segmentum Solar
* Lord Commander Militant of the Imperial Guard
* Cardinal(s) of the Holy Synod of Terra
* The Abbess Sanctorum of the Adepta Sororitas
* Captain-General of the Adeptus Custodes
* Chancellor of the Estate Imperium
* The Speaker for the Chartist Captains

Now, the Imperial Guard and Navy are under the direct command of the Adminstratum, though the Munitorium. And yet, Lord Commander of the Segmentum Solar and Lord Commander Militant of the Imperial Guard are possible High lords, effectively granting these bodies independence from the Administratum, and similarly granting High Lordship to a Cardinal on Terra effectively splits the ecclesiarchy in two between Ophelia and Terra.

Also, are the The Master of the Astronomican and The Master of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica psykers? Probably, making three of the High Lords psykers! "Hate the psyker" indeed.

And, making the Master of assassins a High Lord strikes me as a very poor decision. Grants the buggers way too much independence.

Who exactly does the The Inquisitorial Representative represent?

Chancellor of the Estate Imperium and The Speaker for the Chartist Captains - who are these guys?

mrln68
21-08-2010, 17:30
Rogue Traders operate under Charter from the Imperium...they are the Chartist Captains.

The Grand Master of the Assassins is there for the same reason the AdMech, Navigators and Astartes have a seat. They swore an oath to the Emperor 10,000 years ago...and things don't change much. There is a side bar in one of the old Codex: Assassin books regarding the formation. They are watched over by a branch of the Inquisition all the same though.

The Inquisitorial Rep - represents the Inquisition. One of the Inq. Lords from one of the factions.

The Hate the Psyker thing is something that wasn't really around so much when the Empire was founded. They needed to be watched, and unfortunately some needed to be dealt with...but the whole Hate the Psyker bit came along later. Even the issue with the Librarians was only in relation to Space Marine Psykers...not all of them.

Giving anyone a seat doesn't allow them to be independent. That is all laid out in the traditions, charters and agreements of the organization. Some things, the Astronomican and Astra Telepathica for example have almost no freedom outside of the Imperial command structure. However they do have a permanent seat on the council.

hs5ias
21-08-2010, 19:33
Bear in mind that the High Lords of Terra are not so much a ruling body as a forum for representatives of the ruling bodies. They meet to explain their policies, negotiate over resources, present their concerns and coordinate the overall direction of the Imperium. They are not equivalent to a parliament, or even a cabinet. They are more like diplomats at an international conference for a group of allied nations. Being elevated to the status of High Lord does not make you ruler of one twelfth part of the Imperium. It just means that you have something so important to say and represent such powerful interests that your voice must be heard.

This is why the Master of the Astronomicon and the Master of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica are High Lords. They need to be there because the functions of their organisations are so uttery vital to the Imperium that their needs must be attended to fully at all times. If they were ignored or persecuted it would be fatal to the Imperium. In the higher echelons of the Imperium and the adeptus there is rather less irrational hatred of psykers. That is for the lowly masses, to ensure that they do not consort with and try to make use of psykers, but promptly turn them in to the proper authorities or destroy them if they can't. When used properly the adeptus knows that psykers are a vital resource to the Imperium.

Much the same thing goes for the Grand Master of Assassins. The assassins could topple the Imperium, they are so skilled and have so much inside information. The Grand Master must be there to report and explain the usage of his operatives to everybody, it is too sensitive and powerful for the various adeptus organisations to be able to tolerate not being able to communicate with them directly.

Some Imperial organisations have more than one High Lord because of their sheer size and complexity. While the Lord Commander Militant is a subordinate of the Master of the Administratum, his powers and concerns are so massive and extensive as often to require him to be a High Lord. With the vast resources of the Departmento Munitorum at his command he is no mere lackey of the Administratum, but one of its most powerful figures. The Master of the Administratum has no direct control over the Imperial Guard, he has to go through the Lord Commander, who can much of the time say no if he disagrees. The same goes for other 'subordinate' High Lords.

The Speaker for the Chartist Captains is not just the representative of the Rogue Traders. Every warp-capable ship in the Imperium that does not belong to the Imperial Navy, the Adeptus Mechanicus, the Space Marines or the Navis Nobilite has to have a charter in order to operate. This is all the non-military ships in the Imperial Fleet i.e. the merchant fleet of the Imperium. There is a very complex system to these charters (explained in detail in an old White Dwarf). As the carriers of over 90% of Imperial interstellar traffic this a huge and immensely wealthy concern.

The Chancellor of the Estate Imperium has responsibility for the budget of the Imperium. It is his job to set, collect and allocate the Imperial tithe. The Master of the Administratum does not do this, his concern is with the overall policy and direction of the Imperium. The Chancellor has to ensure that all the adeptus organisations receive sufficient resources to do their job, without beggaring the Imperium to do it, in the face of competing and exorbitant demands. Of all the adeptus organisations only the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Inquisition are not largely or totally dependent on their allocation of the tithe for funding.

Vikingkingq
21-08-2010, 19:39
If anything, I would say a seat amongst the High Lords makes you less independent, because you're now bound by the collective responsibility of decisions taken.

Mage
21-08-2010, 22:51
Sorry to pipe in here, but I have a question about this. Forgive me if I didn't read throughly enough, but what or who is the title or representative to the Adeptus Astartes that someone mentioned above? I wasn't sure if there was one.

Kage2020
21-08-2010, 23:00
This is why the Master of the Astronomicon and the Master of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica are High Lords. They need to be there because the functions of their organisations are so uttery vital to the Imperium that their needs must be attended to fully at all times.
Err, Officio Assassinorim?

Kage

Lord Zarkov
21-08-2010, 23:31
And, making the Master of assassins a High Lord strikes me as a very poor decision. Grants the buggers way too much independence.

As said by others the reason from the Master of Assassins being a High Lord is partly due to ancient oaths with the Emperor, and due to the power and influence of the Officio Assassainorum (you don't want to go upsetting your assassins).
Additionally, since the deployment of an assassin theoreticaly needs a (2/3rds IIRC) majority vote from the High Lords to happen (although Ordo Sicarius Inquisitors often bend this slightly) it makes sense for their Master to be one of the ones casting a vote.

Furthermore there is one extra reason for the Master of Assassins's position (from HH Nemesis)
The first Master of Assassins was none other than Malcador the Sigilite himself. Given his esteemed role as the Emperor's confidant and the Regent of Terra, it makes sense for his position to have been made a permenant member at the time and then - like most of the Emperor's decrees - it simply hasn't beeen rescinded since.

hs5ias
21-08-2010, 23:45
The space marines don't have a voice on the High Lords. They are bound to the Imperium by their ancient oaths of fealty to the Emperor. Every chapter and its master swears personal loyalty direct to the Emperor, in the same way as the Imperial Commanders. The other adeptus just facilitate their service to the Emperor, the space marines are not subordinate parts of the Adeptus Terra. Again similarly to the Imperial Commanders (the rulers of the worlds of the Imperium, also known as planetary governors). The Master of the Administratum is the senior official of the Imperial bureaucracy, not a feudal lord.

Not being part of the Imperial bureaucracy, or forming a single Imperium wide organisation of their own (every chapter master is equal to every other chapter master in legal terms, again just like the Imperial Commanders) the space marine chapters do not get a High Lord. They technically have no part in or say in the governance of the Imperium. All the other High Lords represent Imperium spanning organisations that form a single recognised body, even if they are rather diffuse like the Navis Nobilite or the Inquisition.

The space marine chapters could maybe form a more organised league and acquire a place on the High Lords, but seem more concerned with their own affairs. In any case most of the adeptus does not like the space marines, they put up with them because of their unique skills and the ancient commands of the Emperor. Only the Adeptus Mechanicus generally strongly supports the interests of the space marines among the adeptus.

mrln68
22-08-2010, 00:00
Unfortunately - the last official word is that there is in fact a position on the High Lords for the Space Marines...so most of what you just said...doesn't make a difference.

I don't recall them ever going into detail as to who they are or how they are selected, but I would guess that it is some sort of rotating position where the chapters select someone to represent their concerns.

The Space Marines are subordinate to the High Lords - and in fact they are not fully independent. They do have more freedom than, say a mining colony or an Imperial Regiment - but if they don't answer a request from the Inquisition or from the High Lords to deal with an issue, they will be called to task...and have been dealt very, very harsh punishments.

Post
22-08-2010, 05:44
The Lord Militant can not be quasi independent, all logistics is handled by the Munitorium, which is under the control of the Master of the Administratum, all resupply, raising of troops, everything, in fact the Lord Militant is appointed by the Munitorium.

BTW, Lords Militant elsewhere in the fluff are described as sector level commanders of large conflict zones, but this guy has overall command of the IG, as well as being a High Lord. Sounds far too centralized.


And, interestingly, the Church seems to be still split between Ophelia and Terra, with Ophelia on top, currently.

MOMUS
22-08-2010, 06:10
I imagine the head of the assassins is there as a reminder to everyone who would have notions of 'independence' + Zarkovs point.

Armchair General
22-08-2010, 10:49
Also, are the The Master of the Astronomican and The Master of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica psykers? Probably, making three of the High Lords psykers! "Hate the psyker" indeed.



This would seem to me to be a clear case of 'do as I say, not as I do' or 'one rule for some, another for others' - something that is not exactly uncommon in the Imperium.



And, making the Master of assassins a High Lord strikes me as a very poor decision. Grants the buggers way too much independence.



Consider this - if the Officio Assassinorum is not represented directly, it must be represented through, and therefore in many ways be subordinate to, some other body, which seems like an even poorer decision. It would seem to me that the Assassins are one body that absolutely must maintain there political impartiality, which prevents them being subordinate to anyone.

Askil the Undecided
22-08-2010, 16:00
The Assassinorum must be openly represented, if not for any political reason then simply so you can find the assassins when the big stink collides with the spinning windmill.

Not having a prominent and respected representative of the assassin temples around to hold accountable for their compatriots actions and courier commands is just begging for the kind of trouble that arrives when you don't kow where "your" assassins are. You know, the kind gets folks killed.

Lord_Crull
22-08-2010, 16:34
The Space Marines are subordinate to the High Lords - and in fact they are not fully independent. They do have more freedom than, say a mining colony or an Imperial Regiment - but if they don't answer a request from the Inquisition or from the High Lords to deal with an issue, they will be called to task...and have been dealt very, very harsh punishments.

The Space Wolves would like to disagree.;)

Wyrmwood
22-08-2010, 17:54
The Space Wolves would like to disagree.;)

Well, the poor old Eclessiarchy did try...