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TMATK
21-08-2010, 18:20
Can a wizard place the purple sun template over a unit it is in b2b combat with? Thx

diggerydoom
21-08-2010, 18:35
Wizards cannot target spells at units in combat unless they are casting a hex or augment spell. I would suggest that this prevents the wizrd from doing this-I realise that he is casting a vortex however so there is an argument for him being allowed to (it depends how you define targeted-with this spell I would say that any potential casualties are the target)

Duke_Corwin
21-08-2010, 18:47
Page 508 - spell chart

Also page 31 - vortexes do not have a target.

Vortexes are not targeted so you can cast it even if it covers a unit in combat.

Tae
21-08-2010, 19:05
Wizards cannot target spells at units in combat unless they are casting a hex or augment spell. I would suggest that this prevents the wizrd from doing this-I realise that he is casting a vortex however so there is an argument for him being allowed to (it depends how you define targeted-with this spell I would say that any potential casualties are the target)

Almost.

As a default wizards cannot target units engaged in close combat.

Hex and Augment spells have specific rules which override this restriction.

Power Vortex spells, however, have no target. No target means there's no targetting restrictions. Therefore template is placed, distance moved and spell resolved, regardless of whether the wizard is in combat or not.

jspyd3rx
22-08-2010, 06:42
Could this spell still scatter on you? The Mage would have to be in the first rank as well, very risky?

Taureus
22-08-2010, 07:26
Could this spell still scatter on you? The Mage would have to be in the first rank as well, very risky?

Only if you roll a Misfire for the initial placement (of course it could scatter back on you in a later turn...).

But the caster is relatively safe to cast it from the first rank (some more than others, of course).

Caladin
23-08-2010, 20:42
Doesn't purple sun require the line of sight? I don't have my book with me but I think it says to place the template touching the caster and in Los. I would contend that a caster in combat has no Los at all.

Yrrdead
23-08-2010, 20:44
Doesn't purple sun require the line of sight? I don't have my book with me but I think it says to place the template touching the caster and in Los. I would contend that a caster in combat has no Los at all.

No LOS is required.

Zinch
23-08-2010, 21:11
No LOS is required.

Well, the resume chart in page 508 doesn't agree with you.

That you can cast it if the mage is engaged in combat is another issue... For the description of the vortex spells I'd say yes, what makes the Purple Sun even better...

TMATK
23-08-2010, 21:23
I'm pretty sure you have LOS to what you are in b2b contact with.

It might make a nice house rule to disallow casting into combat. As it is this spell is kinda silly.

Tae
23-08-2010, 21:24
No LOS is required.

No, howeve the template must be placed touching the caster in his front arc.

TheTrueSloth
24-08-2010, 14:08
Well, the resume chart in page 508 doesn't agree with you.



Didn't that get FAQ'ed? Or was that only hexes and augments that got amended so both stated they don't need LoS?

FAQ aside, the problem is the page that describes the spells (page 31) tells us that "unless stated otherwise, the following rules apply:.." and "The Wizard does not need line of sight to his target". The Vortex entry on the same page doesn't list it does need LoS, therefore we assume it doesn't. If it hasn't been FAQ'ed though (and I think it has), then we have a problem.

Toodles

T10
24-08-2010, 14:29
No LOS is required.

Also, it's hard not to have line of sight to something that is in base contact (i.e. the template). Remember that line of sight isn't restricted to the forward arc.

-T10

TheTrueSloth
24-08-2010, 14:51
Also, it's hard not to have line of sight to something that is in base contact (i.e. the template). Remember that line of sight isn't restricted to the forward arc.

-T10

Very true, though it is "generally" restricted to the position of the model's eyes (the rules for LoS telling us you have to draw LoS from the model's "eye view" to the target.

Toodles

Pariah1
24-08-2010, 16:03
Also, it's hard not to have line of sight to something that is in base contact (i.e. the template). Remember that line of sight isn't restricted to the forward arc.

-T10

I take it folks havent read Jevis Johnsons 8th Ed rules guide. I think its on part three he talks about lone models no longer having a 360 LoS, and that all models now use the 90 degree vision arc. These arent an errata as far as I know so may not be hard rules - but I'm sure at GW tournements folks will most likely be held to the clarifications. Its under "Easy to miss rules" or some such on the GW gaming articles....not arguing with anyone, so please dont take it that way, just more of an FYI in case people havent seen these articles yet.

-Pariah

CaliforniaGamer
24-08-2010, 16:21
In terms of casting the Sun into combat: what happens when the mage is placed in the second row of a unit frontally engaged? Sun is cast with the template touching the front of the mage's base which would be directly over the friendly models in the front row. The template then moves forward +x" sweeping over the "bsb CC enemy unit" causing init tests in the process?

I would assume the front row friendlies in front of the mage also init test for the Sun?

that is incredibly brutal:evilgrin:

diggerydoom
24-08-2010, 16:36
You cannot place a template to deliberatly hit friendly models...

Atrahasis
24-08-2010, 17:27
Yes you can. The only templates that you can't place in such a way are shooting templates and "Direct Damage" spell templates.

Bloody Nunchucks
24-08-2010, 19:15
the rulebook says - vortexes have no target. it can be cast into combat. you dont need line of sight for the purple sun, it can go in any direction you want, even if it will hit your own models.

yes you can put the template over a unit in base to base contact with the wizard

CaliforniaGamer
24-08-2010, 19:29
Thanks for that clarification Athrasis!

jspyd3rx
24-08-2010, 19:58
That is going to be nuts against ogres. Especially if wizard is in the first rank. Hard to resist bait like that and then pull off something crazy like that. The Mage and unit would have to survive an initial charge or combat first to pull it off. If he is in the first rank, he could get wiped.

Bereaver
24-08-2010, 22:40
That is going to be nuts against ogres. Especially if wizard is in the first rank. Hard to resist bait like that and then pull off something crazy like that. The Mage and unit would have to survive an initial charge or combat first to pull it off. If he is in the first rank, he could get wiped.

High Elves, man.

Folariath's Robe, Talisman of Saphery.

I'm Ethereal. I make your magic weapons into mundane weapons.

I can charge your Tyrant+Butcher+16 Ironguts to the front and sit there spamming Purple Sun all game.

havoc626
25-08-2010, 00:40
Wouldn't the base CR of the Ogres end up killing you? Yes you should be able to get one off, but not being able to attack would mean that the Ogres would win by at least 4 from ranks and standard.

Bereaver
25-08-2010, 00:55
Wouldn't the base CR of the Ogres end up killing you? Yes you should be able to get one off, but not being able to attack would mean that the Ogres would win by at least 4 from ranks and standard.

Mathwise you're going to kill ~10 Ogres with the first purple sun (ignoring characters). I2 positively blows-- and that Magic phase happens before CC. Which leaves you with ~2 ranks left. All you need to do is have a BSB even vaguely near, let alone the General and you're rerolling a LD test on -2 with ld10.

havoc626
25-08-2010, 05:16
Mathwise you're going to kill ~10 Ogres with the first purple sun (ignoring characters). I2 positively blows-- and that Magic phase happens before CC. Which leaves you with ~2 ranks left. All you need to do is have a BSB even vaguely near, let alone the General and you're rerolling a LD test on -2 with ld10.

Ah, yeah, keep forgetting that there aren't character slots any more, so you can have high Ld and a good caster in games less than 3000pts.