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Tenngate
21-08-2010, 19:15
What morally repugnant or questionable actions have the Loyal Astartes performed post heresy? I understand the Dark Angels have silenced an Inquisitor or two (I imagine many chapters have) but the Inquisition don't exactly have my sympathy. I am referring to large scale actions which make them truly terrifying and ruthless - Exterminatus, failure to act, excess collateral, contempt of unaugmented humans etc. The Marines Malevolent's disregard for refugees on Armageddon to name one.
What other misdeeds which sully their banners have they performed?

Have the glossy Ultramarines ever trod this path!?

Son of Sanguinius
21-08-2010, 19:18
What morally repugnant or questionable actions have the Loyal Astartes performed post heresy? I understand the Dark Angels have silenced an Inquisitor or two (I imagine many chapters have) but the Inquisition don't exactly have my sympathy. I am referring to large scale actions which make them truly terrifying and ruthless - Exterminatus, failure to act, excess collateral, contempt of unaugmented humans etc. The Marines Malevolent's disregard for refugees on Armageddon to name one.
What other misdeeds which sully their banners have they performed?

Have the glossy Ultramarines ever trod this path!?

Moral repugnancy depends on the context. Exterminatus, collateral damage, and contempt for mutants are often vital tools to keep the Imperium functioning.

SultanBaal
21-08-2010, 19:27
The Flesh Tearers on Armageddon after wiping out an ork encampment turned on the Imperial Militia with them tearing them apart in front of the Adepta Sororitas.

The Astartes have been known to bend the rules in regarding acceptal civilian and military losses.

But of the Ultramarines i dont know of any specfic instances, they like the Salamanders arer known to be careful with civilians and other Imperial forces.

There is accounts of the White Scars and their Later Chapters of overkilling their mission objectives, The Red Highway Masscare is one account but it isnt realy go into detail in the Index Astartes.

Chapters Like the Space Wolves, Blood Angels, White Scars, and Iron Hands and their Later Foundings have a tendency to be brutal in their tactics, while the Ultramarines, Salamanders, Raven Guard, Imperial Fists and their Later Foundings are not as brutal and more restrained by Astrates standards.

Im checking out the Index Astrates for any other incidents

Col. Tartleton
21-08-2010, 21:06
The Iron Hands have regularly executed Imperial soldiers with a callousness that makes the Commissariat afraid. Like decimations or exterminations of regiments. On what amount to perceived cowardice. And I don't mean running away.

The Iron Hands slaughtered the defense of a planet for allowing themselves to be invaded in the first place...

They are the epitome of Marines in my opinion. :angel:

[This may be mildly exaggerated. But mildly.]

SultanBaal
21-08-2010, 22:26
You arn't exaggerating
in the Iron Hands Index Astartes section after retaking a sub-sector that fell to chaos.
The Iron Hands retook the sector in weeks and after that they became one of the most devoted sectors in the Imperium. Nothing like the fear of the Iron Hands to put you in the line

Mage
21-08-2010, 22:43
Post heresy, the Badab uprising springs to mind, but a bit too obvious and vague I guess. They did open fire on imperial ships if I recall correctly, but I'm not sure this is what the thread is going for. I think the Knights of Blood are mentioned in the new Blood Angels book as being overkill moreso to the point of exterminaturs.

biggreengribbly
22-08-2010, 00:01
The Flesh Tearers on Armageddon after wiping out an ork encampment turned on the Imperial Militia with them tearing them apart in front of the Adepta Sororitas.

The way I remember it from the new 'dex is that the militia and Sororitas had set up a Barricade to hold the Orks in place, and the Flesh Tearers tore through the Orks, and just ploughed straight on over the barricades into the Militia as well, rather than actively 'turning' to attack them.

They just got a little overeager is all. You know what these sons of Sanguinius can be like :shifty:

Eulenspiegel
22-08-2010, 00:08
The Iron Hands retook the sector in weeks and after that they became one of the most devoted sectors in the Imperium. Nothing like the fear of the Iron Hands to put you in the line

Oh my, I just had an epiphany .... after all those years it just now occured to me just why they made the IRON HANDS so unforgiving.

*selfslap*

SultanBaal
22-08-2010, 00:18
Well i could just see the Flesh Tearers after that incident to have their post battle briefing and going.
"Things to start doing, After charging through enemies lines remember to stop when you hit allied forces, and not to do what you just did to the enemy"
I think there is a small minor difference between being over eager and well...... what the Flesh Tearers did.

Gimp
22-08-2010, 00:32
Chapters Like the Space Wolves, Blood Angels, White Scars, and Iron Hands and their Later Foundings have a tendency to be brutal in their tactics, while the Ultramarines, Salamanders, Raven Guard, Imperial Fists and their Later Foundings are not as brutal and more restrained by Astrates standards.


Space Wolves are actually very civilian user friendly.

SultanBaal
22-08-2010, 00:37
True Space Wolves like the Blood Angels are friendly outside of battle but do you realy want to be next to a Space Wolf in a middle of a battle? Not me for sure i would rather be next to the Salamander

Mage
22-08-2010, 02:04
I'd rather be behind a space wolf If I had to be on a battlefield. Preferably a long fang, nice and safe at the back. Behind a marine, at that.

FabricatorGeneralMike
22-08-2010, 02:05
If you take the time to look around various books there are many so called 'enthusastic actions' in many of the various 40k codex's, BL books, FW books ( just look at Vrakis) and other stuff.

I like in the Tactia Imperalius how when a Black Crusade started the 'tolleriated' mutants on a few plants started to make some noise and they sent in the 13th Mordant guard to shut them up.

I think the =][= books usually sum it up nicely " if a million people have to die to save humanity so be it, they will be at the right hand of the emperor in their death."

bruceadsero
22-08-2010, 02:34
I can't recall the name of the Chapter from Wariors of Ultramar but it was a Ultramarines gene seed based chapter that bombared a world about to be overun by Tyranids on the orders of Kyptermann. This was done while the actual Ultramarines of the 4th company fought in space to save the planet.

Proctorkorps
22-08-2010, 03:31
damn. Fleshtearers are hardcore. i know what army i'm playing next

Mage
22-08-2010, 03:32
I don't like how in the new BA book the try to make them appear more noble. We need a few psycho chapters out there.

Nazguire
22-08-2010, 05:05
The White Panthers were accused of overkill in the 3rd edition Space Marine Codex. Instead of just defeating the enemy, they also proceeded to kill the Governor, and the PDF and everything else mildly threatening, crippling the planet's defence and government for years to come, if memory serves correctly.

callsign-husker
22-08-2010, 05:07
I like to think the Salamanders and Ultramarines (especially the Ultramarines) have their fair share of dirty laundry, they're just better of 'taking care' of the witnesses...

Mage
22-08-2010, 05:53
I think the reason the White Panthers did that is because they were chaos corrupted. I cannot recall the story 100%, but I think they just blew up all their weapons or something. I could be wrong.

callsign-husker
22-08-2010, 06:07
the story is from Inquisitor Grim's perspective: the planetary government was corrupt and he'd suggested a way to take out the Govenor and his conspirators while limiting collateral damage, instead they destroyed the planets defences, wiped out the PDF who were just following orders, stormed the govenor's palace killing all within before summarily executing the govenor and departing the system without saying so much as a word. The planet is left leaderless, unable to fulfill it's tithe and completely defenceless if attacked.

Mage
22-08-2010, 06:23
Not people you would want at a party by any means...

RunepriestRidcully
22-08-2010, 07:09
when were the ultramarines ever noted as nice? the Salamanders and Space wolves are the ones that are nice.

Aiwass
22-08-2010, 07:57
Marines Malevolent killed four thousands of civilians and members of the Administratum at the Armaggedon War, just because there are some orks nearby (index astartes). I love this guys!

Nazguire
22-08-2010, 08:09
What about the Great Crusade. The 19th Company of the Ultramarines levelling Monarchia because they worshipped the Emperor. From the extract of First Heretic.

Tenngate
22-08-2010, 08:55
Some very sound information here. It builds a general picture of what space marines are like in conflict. My overall impression so far is "cross your fingers and don't get in their way." I imagine chapters that fight with an auxilia or go on long campaigns with other Imperial forces are much safer to be around.
It is the chapters that favour "Shock" tactics with assault troops that often see red and cause controversy.

IMO a chapter which receives instructions to topple a corrupt governor?...well wrong tool for the job. There is a certain inevitability to the complete decimation of a planets defences in the process. An assassin or a detachment of Imperial Guard would've been more appropriate with a more moderate outcome. Put Space Marines in such a scenario and a controversial outcome is inevitable.
On the other hand, a campaign which is protracted, bloody and long, involving large imperial armies supported by many chapters against the most formidable and numerous of foes should see a different attitude form up in a Marines mind. When the objective is to protect a hive or preserve civilian life I imagine behavioral changes - there's a great image somewhere of a mother and child looking up at the gigantic and protective form of a marine. For a chapter like Marines Malevolent to behave as they did in a conflict of this kind I find disturbing, whilst the Flesh Tearers action is rather "an unfortunate incident"...

Zweischneid
22-08-2010, 09:13
Well, the story on the Black Templar Crusade of the Ophidium Gulf (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Crusade_of_the_Ophidium_Gulf) strongly implies ignoble action and foul play on part of the Dark Angels. I guess it's less infamous though than simply not known and largely a "mystery" what happend to that Black Templar Crusade.

The Dark Angels don't really leave loose ends I suppose.

Shamana
22-08-2010, 11:19
In general, I don't think I have read of any SM chapter that could generally be described as nice. The salamanders are close due to their staying behind on Armageddon and fixing up a lot of the infrastructure, although I think it was at least partially due to their specific ethics and beliefs. If they were sent to exterminate a chaos cult, I think there would be a fair bit of innocent deaths as well. Still, overall they may just be the one SM chapter whose presence on a world increases a regular human's survival chances.

Space wolves (or iirc at least one of their Lords) were sympathetic towards the IG they fought with at Armageddon and weren't very happy that the Inquisition had them disappeared, but they might have some dirty laundry as well - such as the actions of the wolfen, or that time (from their last codex) when they opened fire on Ecclesiarchy/AdSor ships. I don't like the Theocracy much either, but the Wolves weren't kidding about their privacy. I think that'd certainly would count as infamous in most circles of the Imperium.

The Venerable Archmage
22-08-2010, 13:45
I don't like how in the new BA book the try to make them appear more noble. We need a few psycho chapters out there.

I think that rather than being a new take on the BAs, this vision of them is actually much as it was way back in 2nd edition, although I never picked up their codex when it was around then. The red thirst was portrayed more as a tragic flaw than as something to be indulged.

Successor chapters, of course, have always shown a variety of attitudes to their geneseed flaws, so chapters like the Flesh Tearers have embraced it in a way that their parent chapter has not.

spetswalshe
22-08-2010, 16:11
Flesh Tearers, Dark Angels and Marines Malevolent certainly seem the most grimdark - the other sissy chapters might faff about trying to direct orbital lance strikes away from the orphanage, but the Marines Malevolent straight up get things done.


Space Wolves are actually very civilian user friendly.

Tell that to Prospero.

Shamana
22-08-2010, 16:30
Hey, those were witches.

Lord_Crull
22-08-2010, 16:32
when were the ultramarines ever noted as nice?

They rule directly over their people in a fair and just society.They showed reluctance to use Exterminatus on Imperial civillians in both Nightbringer and Warriors of Ultramar. They have always been presented as one of the nobler chapters.

Lord Malorne
22-08-2010, 16:40
Presented yes, there are reasons for that.

bp.
22-08-2010, 16:54
Presented yes, there are reasons for that.
Bang on. ;)

Lord_Crull
22-08-2010, 16:57
Presented yes, there are reasons for that.

Of course, when I say presented, I also assume they are.;)

TheMav80
22-08-2010, 17:45
The Black Templars are pretty hardcore as well.

Helsreach is a pretty good representation. Grimauldus doesn't mess around like those sissy Salamanders and their "defending civilians". :wtf: :p

Wyrmwood
22-08-2010, 17:57
Flesh Tearers, Dark Angels and Marines Malevolent certainly seem the most grimdark - the other sissy chapters might faff about trying to direct orbital lance strikes away from the orphanage, but the Marines Malevolent straight up get things done.

Tut, tut - you forgot the Iron Hands. :)


Tell that to Prospero.

'Quoted for truth.'

Lupe
22-08-2010, 21:06
Space Wolves? They plunged a whole sector into a three way (Eldar vs Imperium vs Orks) war that lasts even to this day, after a mistranslation broke off their temporary alliance with the Eldar. That's got to be infamous enough... Especially coming from what passes for good guys in the 41st millennium.

Askil the Undecided
23-08-2010, 00:30
The GK's annihilated the exposed population military and civilian alike after the first war for Armageddon. It ws severe enough that Logan Grimnar never forgave the Imperium for allowing it.

Mage
23-08-2010, 00:33
The GK know there stuff when it comes to daemons and taint though. They didn't do it because they are a bunch of nutters, they did it because it was their duty. A lot different from Flesh Tearers and Marines Malevolant extremism.

LexxBomb
23-08-2010, 00:47
The GK's annihilated the exposed population military and civilian alike after the first war for Armageddon. It ws severe enough that Logan Grimnar never forgave the Imperium for allowing it.

no they sterilized them... big difference. the majority of the population was allowed to live, but not reproduce.

Hellebore
23-08-2010, 00:58
Prospero was declared traitor by the Emperor/Horus (depending on how the story will unfold).

If you hire the space wolves to kill the bad guys, you better hope the bad guys aren't you. :p


The White Panthers from the 3rd ed codex decimated an entire planet because its governor had turned rogue (no one else had). It's a classic space marine overkill story.


no they sterilized them... big difference. the majority of the population was allowed to live, but not reproduce.

There was also the small thing about being in forced labour gulags for the rest of their non reproducing lives...

hellebore

Askil the Undecided
23-08-2010, 01:15
Sterilising can mean "making devoid of live" in addition to "making clean" and "making reproductively infertile" didn't have source material to hand, thus I made wrong interpretation.

bignbadbum
23-08-2010, 01:33
I think the Black Templars are pretty grimdark. Their battlecry is "No Pity! No Remorse! No Fear!" after all. Not to mention they are all about getting the job done in the name of the Emprah even if they have to bend the rules or break them to do it(Helsreach, the Ordinatus on Armaggedon, and such). If a few civilians die in the process oh well it's their own fault according to the Templar. They are also seem very "Listen to me or die" type guys when dealing with non-marines. Grimaldus even dishonored the Salamanders when asked to lead them in prayer, because he was angry that they decided to hold back to protect the civillians instead of attempting to kill the ork warboss.

CasaHouse
23-08-2010, 04:30
The GK's annihilated the exposed population military and civilian alike after the first war for Armageddon. It ws severe enough that Logan Grimnar never forgave the Imperium for allowing it.

I thought the GKs that showed up died to a man fighting Angron and his Bloodthirster retinue?

They tend to show up, kill daemons, and leave. They don't really do the necessary paperwork afterward, that's what the Inquisition and the High Lords of Terra do.

Gorbad Ironclaw
23-08-2010, 06:59
I don't like how in the new BA book the try to make them appear more noble. We need a few psycho chapters out there.

Blood Angels were always much more flawed nobles than bloodthirsty mindless savages.

Also, you do realise that all marines are psychotic, right? Brainwashed and indoctrinated to by ultra-violent killers that will slaughter anything they perceive as an enemy(most anyone else depending on the circumstances) and feel happy about doing so.

There psychology is only vaguely similar to what you might call ordinary humans. The closet you will come is probably various serial-killers.

Kind a makes you wonder how much worse an Eversor assassin will have to be if he scares the kind of people who employ Space Marines for self-defence.

TheDarkDaff
23-08-2010, 07:54
The GK know there stuff when it comes to daemons and taint though. They didn't do it because they are a bunch of nutters, they did it because it was their duty. A lot different from Flesh Tearers and Marines Malevolant extremism.

There isn't as much of a difference between the GK's and MM's as you believe. The GK's deemed the populace too corrupted to be allowed to live so they cleansed them while the MM's realised the Orks had gotten into the refugee compund and took the most direct action to eradicate the the Orks with the lowest possible military cost. In fact the MM's probably had a net benefit as their are now less mouths to feed that drain the defences and they didn't take any losses while the Orks in question were wiped out.

In fact the MM's were probably doing the tactically correct thing by conserving themselves over the refugee's when there was an ongoing planetary wide invasion happening.

Mage
23-08-2010, 13:52
@ Gorbad

I was not clear enough. My post refers to another post, about Flesh Tearers, not Blood Angles, and how they are made to seem more nobler than they are in previous editions.

callsign-husker
23-08-2010, 13:59
The White Panthers from the 3rd ed codex decimated an entire planet because its governor had turned rogue (no one else had). It's a classic space marine overkill story.

There was also the small thing about being in forced labour gulags for the rest of their non reproducing lives...

Am sat with that codex on my lap: suggest you give it a second read through as your right it's an awesome/classic story but they only kill off the govenor, his associates, the PDF and the orbital defenders, granted they were pretty casual with collateral damage but the general populace lives on

massey
23-08-2010, 15:38
I'd say you've got 3 general tiers of marines. The "nicest" group would be those like the Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and the Salamanders. While they're still hardened soldiers and can be vicious killers, they normally limit civilian casualties and try to treat their allies honorably.

The next group would be your "average" Space Marines. They might occasionally get carried away, or have one or two specific things that set them off, but in general they aren't going to rampage around killing allies. They still believe the ends justify the means, so if they have to nuke a city that still has civilians in it in order to kill the Alien Queen, they'll do it. Save more lives in the long run, after all.

The third group would be those who push the boundaries of what the Imperium will tolerate. The Marines Malevolent, the Iron Hands, the Flesh Tearers, these guys have a bad reputation. Imperial Guard commanders will often refuse to fight alongside them, and often don't even get executed for refusing the order. Their bosses just nod their head and say "Yup, I knew you were smart."

Ultramarines probably fall somewhere between the first two tiers. They care about civilians, in a White Man's Burden kind of way. The Dark Angels are firmly within the second tier, working to save civilian lives in "the big picture", except when the issue of the Fallen comes up. Then they're willing to do anything to maintain their secret. Of course, they do a good job of maintaining that secret, so their acts aren't infamous because nobody knows about them. Blood Angels try to operate in the nice guy tier, but every once in a while one of them gets really thirsty and starts feeding on the civilians.

DeeKay
23-08-2010, 18:04
In the 2nd Ed Sisters of Battle book, there is mention of the Purge of Lastrati. Basically the Black Templars, assisted by the local religious nutjobs, brought the planet's population from something like 14 billion to just under 2 million and used the remains to decorate the planet's landscape. Yeah, they were great!

With regards,
Dan.

Phoebus
23-08-2010, 22:00
massey,

Dark Angels are second tier at NOTHING. If you must, invent a First Tier Category for 'working to save civilian lives in "the big picture", except when the issue of the Fallen comes up. Then they're willing to do anything to maintain their secret. Of course, they do a good job of maintaining that secret, so their acts aren't infamous because nobody knows about them.'

;)

TheDarkDaff
24-08-2010, 00:52
massey,

Dark Angels are second tier at NOTHING. If you must, invent a First Tier Category for 'working to save civilian lives in "the big picture", except when the issue of the Fallen comes up. Then they're willing to do anything to maintain their secret. Of course, they do a good job of maintaining that secret, so their acts aren't infamous because nobody knows about them.'

;)

The Dark Angels also aren't above using a local population as bait to get the job done quickly and cleanly. That is if you believe Astellan's story about why he was personally sent home by the Lion (the whole Lion weakening the DA's line so the Orks would break through to pin them against the city walls and eradicate them rather than having to root out pockets of Orks in the mountain range honeycombed with caves and if some Orks got into the City then a few Civilian death were less important than the marine deaths and delay from other areas).

Plebian
24-08-2010, 08:25
I'm hoping Prospero Burns and The First Heretic throw some dirt on the Space Wolves and Ultras, respectively.

I think A Thousand Sons gave a good appraisal of the savagery of the space wolves. They punked a whole planet, possibly unnecessarily, and then burned some libraries for the fun of it. In another short story they virus bombed a society they had just fought against, because some noble brat refused to kneel to the wolf lord.

Iuris
24-08-2010, 09:03
Especially since the Wolves had made such a big deal of how important it is to fight for your freedom and all to motivate the populace to fight against their previous oppressors...

Polaria
24-08-2010, 09:09
The spirit of the Imperium is such that pretty much each and every Space Marines chapter has committed things that would be considered crimes against humanity, genocide and so on in modern earth. In Imperium it is called "heroic and zealous service committed in the interests of all mankind". Even the most "noble" ones have surely committed one or two operations that would make Einsatzgruppen look like church choir boys in comparison. I mean you seriously have to go pretty goddamn psycho with capital P in order to be even mentioned for brutality of your actions in Imperium.

Hellebore
24-08-2010, 09:54
Am sat with that codex on my lap: suggest you give it a second read through as your right it's an awesome/classic story but they only kill off the govenor, his associates, the PDF and the orbital defenders, granted they were pretty casual with collateral damage but the general populace lives on

Decimated doesn't mean exterminatus (it actually means killing every 10th person). The author goes on to say he's not sure if the planet would recover from the actions of the marines to provide a tithe next year. They did a real number on the planet's infrastructure especially by destroying their orbital defence AND their ground based armoury. Even from the perspective of the imperium it was seen as excessive and the planet is now a virtual non entity due to the destruction wrought.

It was actually quite stupid because they smashed up the place, killed almost all its defenders, destroyed their weaponry and orbital defence and then just left. They left the planet wide open to attack. But because they'd 'killed the heretic governor' their mission was a success and they could go do something else.

If all marines did that to all rebellious or near rebellious worlds the imperium would fall apart as they destroyed its defences piecemeal from within.

If they were happy with killing so many people they should have just dropped a magma bomb on the palace as soon as they made orbit, rather than fart ass around killing every pdf soldier on they could find. I mean it even says they 'established orbital supremecy', but apparently only for the lols because they then pretty much ignored that supremecy to go pdf hunting.

Hellebore

R0ot
24-08-2010, 10:42
Black Templars raided Terra to kill a High Lord that bombed their chapter keeps.

Gdolkin
24-08-2010, 13:08
"To the right, cowering behind a tangle of shattered rockcrete and scorched iron beams, were a squad of Gantor PDF. Sergeant Courras ordered them to stand and attack but they just tried to crawl deeper into the rubble. Gaumech grabbed the nearest and hauled him to his feet.
"This is your world, held in trust from the Emperor. It is bad enough that you allowed these rebels to build their strength, but now you fail to put them down. Will you fight or have you yielded to fear?"
In reply the man twisted and squirmed in the grip of Gaumech's bionic left hand, babbling and weeping. The Space Marine hurled him fully five yards onto the jagged rubble. Gaumech looked to Courras for confirmation and the Sergeant raised his Storm Bolter. Quickly and efficiently, using the minimum of ammunition the Iron Hands executed their erstwhile allies.
"Weaklings," rumbled Sergeant Courras, "We are better without them."
Without a second glance, the Iron Hands resumed their advance on the foundry."
Index Astartes: Hand of Justice p10.

On the Retaking of the Contqual Subsector:
"The terrible fury of the Iron Hands was overwhelming, and they stormed into the sub-sector, taking the first few planets before any form of resistance could be assembled. Entire populations were ruthlessly cut down to a man, slaughtered while their pleas for mercy went unheard. The death of every heretic and traitor only strengthened the Imperium, and the Chapter had no mercy for those who would let such corruption overtake their world."
..
"The Iron Hands executed one in every three citizens in an intensive mass cleansing, a punishment and warning to remain ever vigilant against the inherent dangers of weakness. In what has become typical fashion, the evidence of the unforgiving fury of the Iron Hands inspired a wave of devotion that spread before them."
(p8).

mob16151
24-08-2010, 13:24
Decimated doesn't mean exterminatus (it actually means killing every 10th person). The author goes on to say he's not sure if the planet would recover from the actions of the marines to provide a tithe next year. They did a real number on the planet's infrastructure especially by destroying their orbital defence AND their ground based armoury. Even from the perspective of the imperium it was seen as excessive and the planet is now a virtual non entity due to the destruction wrought.

It was actually quite stupid because they smashed up the place, killed almost all its defenders, destroyed their weaponry and orbital defence and then just left. They left the planet wide open to attack. But because they'd 'killed the heretic governor' their mission was a success and they could go do something else.

If all marines did that to all rebellious or near rebellious worlds the imperium would fall apart as they destroyed its defences piecemeal from within.

If they were happy with killing so many people they should have just dropped a magma bomb on the palace as soon as they made orbit, rather than fart ass around killing every pdf soldier on they could find. I mean it even says they 'established orbital supremecy', but apparently only for the lols because they then pretty much ignored that supremecy to go pdf hunting.

Hellebore

Congratulations, I'm now picturing the White Panthers as a bunch of angry rednecks in my head. Screaming Yee-Haw for the Emperor Boy!!!! While PDF hunting.

Iverald
24-08-2010, 14:20
The GK's annihilated the exposed population military and civilian alike after the first war for Armageddon. It ws severe enough that Logan Grimnar never forgave the Imperium for allowing it.

WD 273 p. 113 disagrees on that. The Adeptus Administratum couldn't land an Exterminatus on the planet as per the usual schedule after any major daemonic incursion. Instad they rounded up the surviving population, sterilised them and get them to work in work camps, repopulating the planet with people rawn from different sectors.

And it is the Administratum which earned ternal hatred of Logan Grimnar, not GKs. In fact,, there is no mention of them postA ngron's banishment, save the meagre number of survivors.

Archaon
24-08-2010, 20:30
It depends which edition you take as your source.

Back then in 2nd edition most Space Marines were akin to Nazi SS Stormtroopers gunning down children, women and the old to achieve their objective.

Nowadays that has mellowed out tremendously and we almost have humanistic Philosopher Marines who'd put themselves into harms way to save a single human.

Most incidents have been mentioned including the White Panthers operation which i immediately thought of.

A quote from Bruce Willis in "The Siege" (terrorists have struck New York and the resulting panic leads to martial law and the army moving in):

"The Army is a broad sword, not a scalpel."

This is what Space Marines are.. the sledgehammer of the Emperor. No subtlety, no remorse and definitely no mercy.

LexxBomb
25-08-2010, 06:43
except that the guard are the hammer and anvil

Imperialis_Dominatus
25-08-2010, 07:59
In another short story they virus bombed a society they had just fought against, because some noble brat refused to kneel to the wolf lord.

That was Wolves at the Door (wolfy wolf wolf) from the Tales of Heresy book. And they killed that society because the noble brat and his ungrateful heathens refused to bow to the Allfather at the height of the Great Crusade.

Polaria
25-08-2010, 10:26
Nowadays that has mellowed out tremendously and we almost have humanistic Philosopher Marines who'd put themselves into harms way to save a single human.

I disagree with this a bit. Yes, you have carebear marines, but they are mostly single characters displayed in a few BL novels. Not really something you can judge the majority on. Considering the fact that even current fluff still retains that many Marines are recruited from barbarians, feral men, medieval warriors or just plain psychotic hive scum you can't really expect them to be the "shining example of all humanity".

Nazguire
25-08-2010, 11:11
That was Wolves at the Door (wolfy wolf wolf) from the Tales of Heresy book. And they killed that society because the noble brat and his ungrateful heathens refused to bow to the Allfather at the height of the Great Crusade.

After the Space Wolves saved them from the Dark Eldar, may I add. Ungrateful scum.

Justicar Valius
26-08-2010, 00:02
I thought the GKs that showed up died to a man fighting Angron and his Bloodthirster retinue?

They tend to show up, kill daemons, and leave. They don't really do the necessary paperwork afterward, that's what the Inquisition and the High Lords of Terra do.

Actually 2 of them lived IIRC. It's the Inquisition that clears up the aftermath as you said.

Apart from stuff already in this thread I've got nothing.

Toramino
26-08-2010, 03:02
Keep in mind the only reason the ultramarines and co. like the space wolves appear to be squeaky clean in fluff is because they are the posterboys that GW use to promote the game. They have been moulded more into a ''heroic space knight'' archetype than the other chapters to attract more gamers.

Mage
26-08-2010, 10:04
Whic is silly, considering the dark setting, that the imperium is meant to be the most brutal regime imaginable.

pringles978
27-08-2010, 17:12
angry marines.

after the liberation of thoris 6, the 3rd angry company hung around for a kegger with the allied imperial guard troops. beer was spilt and a month long bar brawl ensued, leveling half the planet and culminating with high chaplain norris beating a lord commisar to death with his own ogryn bodyguard...