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Leatus
22-08-2010, 20:00
I don't know a huge amount about Fulgrim, but going by lexicanum is he trapped inside his body? Is he still a small fragment in the mind of the now Daemon Prince of Slaanesh? Its been 10,000 years, so is there anywhere that states theres still a small piece of consciousness left, and if so after 10,000 years is he still horrified of what he has become?

Son of Sanguinius
22-08-2010, 20:15
They haven't indicated answers to those questions. All we really know is that he was imprisoned and the demon talked about torturing him for a while.

Lupe
22-08-2010, 20:57
Wouldn't you be horrified after being trapped for ten thousand years, all the while watching powerlessly as your legion is being decimated and perverted, your ideals twisted, and everything you held dear crumpled to dust before your very eyes?

SultanBaal
22-08-2010, 21:07
Yea i would be horrified if i was Fulgrim, Lupe.
Since Fulgrim wanted a Legion of Perfection, with elegance of body, mind and battle style. and having it instead become a shattered band of debauchery.

Son of Sanguinius
22-08-2010, 21:25
Wouldn't you be horrified after being trapped for ten thousand years, all the while watching powerlessly as your legion is being decimated and perverted, your ideals twisted, and everything you held dear crumpled to dust before your very eyes?

No, I'd be insane. Well, more insane. So my capacity for horror and regret would be temporary and inconsistent at the very least, completely gone at the very most.

Fulgrim could be insane, corrupted, dead, horrified, vengeful, noble, tired, or purple. What I'm saying is we don't know. :)

mob16151
22-08-2010, 22:06
I find myself thinking that if Horus thought Fulgrim could be saved, he might be salvageable. And if he is, that would be awesome, even though the Imperium would never welcome him back.

Son of Sanguinius
22-08-2010, 22:43
I find myself thinking that if Horus thought Fulgrim could be saved, he might be salvageable. And if he is, that would be awesome, even though the Imperium would never welcome him back.

Horus made up his mind to save Fulgrim simply on his own prowess. He had little to no understanding of Chaos and/or the demonic.

Now that said, I would love a repentant Fulgrim wandering the galaxy trying to atone for his failure.

mob16151
22-08-2010, 23:08
Horus made up his mind to save Fulgrim simply on his own prowess. He had little to no understanding of Chaos and/or the demonic.

Now that said, I would love a repentant Fulgrim wandering the galaxy trying to atone for his failure.

Could you imagine him as like the leader of the illuminati? (If there still canon, of course.)

Londinium
22-08-2010, 23:18
Horus made up his mind to save Fulgrim simply on his own prowess. He had little to no understanding of Chaos and/or the demonic.

Now that said, I would love a repentant Fulgrim wandering the galaxy trying to atone for his failure.

I've often thought about and liked this idea. For whatever reason Fulgrim manages to throw off his possession and his body returns to normal (blame it on warp magicks and all that jazz). He returns to the Imperium and tries to help them but is rejected outright and hunted down as an arch traitor both by the Inquisition and his fellow Space Marines.

Seeking to attone for his sins, he puts together his own ragtag army in a distant corner of the Imperium and begins acting essentially as a Ronin. Fighting for the Imperium but despised by the very thing he fights for. The irony being that if the Imperium actually forgave him and brought him back into the fold he could turn it around and usher in a new golden age. What with being a Primarch and all.

It'd be interesting if a splinter faction broke away from the Imperium aswell believing Fulgrim to be their saviour and rejecting the Imperium's view of him. Even though a attoneful Fulgrim would probably reject their suppport for him because it undermines the Imperium. Think the Big E constantly rejecting the supporters of his divinity.

mob16151
22-08-2010, 23:23
You know reading the HH series I feel like the Lore is being "seeded". What I mean is that the BL is laying the groundwork to actually advance the storyline. (I'm an incurable optimist.) You have Fulgrims Dorian grey turn, twin Primarch's,Ahrimans declaration of loyalty. All these are things that could be used in a future plot advancement IMO. So I'm just wondering if anyone else has felt like this? And my apoligies for wandering so far OT.

Londinium
22-08-2010, 23:27
I'm not so sure if it's seeding for future plotlines but it's making the characters of some of the most famous traitors more gray and less black and white. For instance theres evidence that Ahriman might still be loyal now, just acting a as a free spirit. In which case his attempts to break into the Black Library are not to ascend to godhood or for evil means but to find ways to fight chaos or bend it to his will. In this case he's not so far away from the Relictors. He may well consider himself as still loyal to the Big E and the Imperium.

It's hard to tell over the period of 10,000 years and I think the Black Library are doing this precisely to muddy the waters. Rather than Ahriman = bad, Calgar = good etc. Of course there are some out and out bad characters such as Erebus, Grulgor, Abaddon, Kor Phaeron et al.

Mage
22-08-2010, 23:54
I really like the points the last two posters bring up, and agree with the seeding and how its nice to make things less black and white with the story. Ahriman, after reading the Thousand Sons book, seems more like a Tragic Anti-Hero than an out and out villain.

Nazguire
23-08-2010, 02:45
I'm not so sure if it's seeding for future plotlines but it's making the characters of some of the most famous traitors more gray and less black and white. For instance theres evidence that Ahriman might still be loyal now, just acting a as a free spirit. In which case his attempts to break into the Black Library are not to ascend to godhood or for evil means but to find ways to fight chaos or bend it to his will. In this case he's not so far away from the Relictors. He may well consider himself as still loyal to the Big E and the Imperium.

It's hard to tell over the period of 10,000 years and I think the Black Library are doing this precisely to muddy the waters. Rather than Ahriman = bad, Calgar = good etc. Of course there are some out and out bad characters such as Erebus, Grulgor, Abaddon, Kor Phaeron et al.


Whilst Ahriman may have been merely a little bit disillusioned with the Imperium and still ultimately loyal to the Emperor's ideals in 30k, by 40k I'd say he's pretty much in it for himself. Ten thousand years of Chaos influence and being manipulated by Tzeentch all this time would take its toll on your sanity I'd say.

abasio
23-08-2010, 04:15
I thought (from the end of the book "Fulgrim") that the Fulgrim's soul/consciousness was trapped in the painting of him done by that rememberancer that painted it in blood and feces.

Now if you are the bloodpoop Primarch you'd probably have gone insane ages ago.

Not sure if my interpretation of the book is correct but in the last page it says after describing the painting....


The painted Fulgrim stared down at upon the ruin of hte theatre and the monster that had claimed his mortal shell. The daemon smiled as it saw the horror within his eyes, a horror that had not been rendered by any skill of the painter. Perfect exquisite agony burned in the portrait's gaze, and as the daemon sheathed the anathame and bowed to the silent stage, the dark pools of it's painted eyes seemed to watch its every movement.

The daemon turned from the portrait and and made its way from the theatre as the last of the floodlights guttered and died, leaving the last phoenix forever shrouded in darkness

To me this sounds like he is no longer in his body and is not witness to all the things the daemon is doing or the degredation of his legion. He is merely trapped in darkness, forever.

Son of Sanguinius
23-08-2010, 04:23
I thought (from the end of the book "Fulgrim") that the Fulgrim's soul/consciousness was trapped in the painting of him done by that rememberancer that painted it in blood and feces.

Now if you are the bloodpoop Primarch you'd probably have gone insane ages ago.

Not sure if my interpretation of the book is correct but in the last page it says after describing the painting....



To me this sounds like he is no longer in his body and is not witness to all the things the daemon is doing or the degredation of his legion. He is merely trapped in darkness, forever.

Forever is nothing when you wield the power of retcon. ;)

I took that to mean that Fulgrim's anguish would forever be reflected in the painting, not that he was in it. An awkward use of Dorian Gray.

Londinium
23-08-2010, 13:02
I took it to mean that aswell. Even if the daemon had put Fulgrim's soul into that painting (god knows how that'd work) I'd assume he'd have taken it back eventually. Given that the Daemon says he's going to enjoy torturing Fulgrim for decades/centuries.