PDA

View Full Version : Power Fist



Son of Sanguinius
23-08-2010, 05:35
No, this is not a thread about the scientific possibility of a power fist.

I have three questions and welcome all answers that aren't intending to be silly. ;)

1) What of a power fist is covered by the force field technology of typical power weapons? Fingers? Palm? Back of the gauntlet?

2) How does the use of a power fist inhibit movement? Or put another way, is it so heavy that it actually slows the velocity of an attack or is it simply heavy enough to limit the frequency of attacks?

3) How do your answers apply to lightning claw constructs that are based off of a power fist structure?

Thanks to everyone who takes the time to try and answer.

Hellebore
23-08-2010, 05:44
Well, power fists don't inhibit movement in Necromunda or 2nd ed 40k. The only downside to them in Dark Heresy is that they are unable to perform a parry, although this is true of two handed axes etc as well. Thunder hammers aren't inhibited either (in all the above settings).

Old pictures had a nimbus around the entire gauntlet, fingers and all.

Given the above, lightning claws don't suffer any problems either. The blades are covered in the power field rather than the gauntlets.

However in 2nd ed a lightning claw was just superior to a power fist - S8 D3 wounds (instead of 1 wound) and parry, although they could only be used as a pair.

Hellebore

cornonthecob
23-08-2010, 08:03
The power fist is covered with the energy field so all of the hand , this means that if you punch , grab or just poke someone it can kill something.

The lightning claw is less like a power fist and more like a glove with several small power swords attatched.

FarseerMatt
23-08-2010, 08:53
Unfortunately, the actual models have said gauntlets be as big as power fists, which makes the fact that they do not suffer from the same "slow and cumbersome" rules seem very odd.

AndrewGPaul
23-08-2010, 09:49
Probably because the "slow and cumbersome" rules were shoehorned into 3rd edition for game balance, and weren't really supported by the fluff.

Dr.Clock
23-08-2010, 10:42
The way I look at is this:

The field does surround the entire gauntlet, but is of such force as to require recharge after each full discharge...

Basically, if you hit someone as hard as you can with a power-fist, it needs to cycle up before it can be used in that manner again. While the power-field might not go away completely - you can keep doing damage and defend yourself - you actually need to trigger the full-force actively through some command (like screaming 'Falcon PUNCH') in order to really blast things to pieces.

This is different from a Lightning Claw in the respect that the claw has blades that carry a sustained power-charge and thus, while they can't provide the increased power, are totally capable of shredding most living targets.

Of course, I'm pretty sure this is just me making this all up... but it does fit the limitations on power-fist use that are applied in-game.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

TheRedAngel
23-08-2010, 10:51
However in 2nd ed a lightning claw was just superior to a power fist - S8 D3 wounds (instead of 1 wound) and parry, although they could only be used as a pair. ...by the loyal marines.
Traitor marines only ever used one lightning claw in second edition.
But according to old fluff lightning claws (and thunderhammers too) could only be used by models in terminator armour. The lightning claw was even named 'terminator claw' at one point in the old rulebooks.

Askil the Undecided
23-08-2010, 11:20
Basically power fists are big heavy fists intentionally made heavier to increase impact damage and supported by an internal servo-assist, covered by a matter disrupting power field.

Imagine them as a boxers big wind up "wrecking ball" right hook. It isn't that quick, but it does the damage due to pure force applied (plus with a PF the softening effect of power field disruption on the target's surface.)

The servos in a powerfist are heavy duty kit designed to deal with heavy weights and capable of applying great pressure they were never intended for moving particularly quickly.

This is why there is the difference between a powerfist (as seen on power armour and termies) and power gloves (as seen on IG officers.) A SM's PF has to double the superhuman might of a marine and thus is a higly complex piece of kit with a power field and bracing servo mechanisms throughout the wearer's armour whereas a IG powerglove is just a heavy gauntlet with servo assisted fingers for tearing and a power field that does most of the work.

Think of it this way.

Power field (across the area of a powrfist blow) +2 Strength
Servos +(the remainder) Strength

marv335
23-08-2010, 11:23
The way I understand it, The speed of use limitation is not the case of the fist being used to punch, it's the wielder grabbing the target and squeezing.
Lightning claws are swiping at the target, thus suffer no speed penalty.
Hammers are similar in this regard.

Hellebore
23-08-2010, 12:05
Except of course that the 40k RPGs don't actually provide any initiative penalty, showing that the powerfist isn't inherently slow. This is also true in the inquisitor rules and necromunda, both still available from GW.

Thus there is more precedence that powerfists aren't slow than the opposite, making the rule a game mechanic to balance them against other weapons rather than anything else.

Are there any BL books that depict powerfists as slow and cumbersome weapons? It would be especially hard to rationalise on a power armoured warrior where the armour provides a strength boost to offset the weight (which really wouldn't be THAT much).

EDIT: The power fist listed in the Inquisitor's handbook weighs 12 kilograms. In comparison a great weapon like a great sword, weighs 7 kgs. Chainaxes weigh 7kgs and chainswords ~4.5 kgs. No I know that historically zweihanders etc didn't weigh 7kgs (they wouldn't have weighed more than 2kgs) but comparatively it shows that the powerfist isn't actually that heavy.

Hellebore

Sai-Lauren
23-08-2010, 12:06
But an Eldar for instance should still be able to grab and squeeze faster than an Ork would (and using a Power Glove would be an array of punches, chops, grasping attacks etc).


Probably because the "slow and cumbersome" rules were shoehorned into 3rd edition for game balance, and weren't really supported by the fluff.
I blame Andy Chambers... ;)

Personally, I'd have gone with S+2, I-1 for Power Gloves - the user would train with them until they were as comfortable as possible with them, and it's not like they've got an anvil on the end of their arm.

Askil, the larger "Astartes Gauntlets" could also include additional field generators to increase the damage done, or possibly more powerful emitters (and thus more expensive, probably more delicate etc that the Guard wouldn't be able to issue or maintain).

Born Again
23-08-2010, 12:35
The way I look at is this:

The field does surround the entire gauntlet, but is of such force as to require recharge after each full discharge...

Basically, if you hit someone as hard as you can with a power-fist, it needs to cycle up before it can be used in that manner again. While the power-field might not go away completely - you can keep doing damage and defend yourself - you actually need to trigger the full-force actively through some command (like screaming 'Falcon PUNCH') in order to really blast things to pieces.

This is different from a Lightning Claw in the respect that the claw has blades that carry a sustained power-charge and thus, while they can't provide the increased power, are totally capable of shredding most living targets.

Of course, I'm pretty sure this is just me making this all up... but it does fit the limitations on power-fist use that are applied in-game.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

Power fists maintain a constant, stable amount of energy around the fist at all times. The 'recharge and release' method is how thunder hammers work, giving them the thunder-like crack when they strike.

Askari
23-08-2010, 13:08
The way I understand it, The speed of use limitation is not the case of the fist being used to punch, it's the wielder grabbing the target and squeezing.
Lightning claws are swiping at the target, thus suffer no speed penalty.


This is how I've always rationalised it as well, it's not the Power Fist that's inherently slow, it's the way it's used. Maybe the characters in Necromunda and Inquisitors do karate chops with them instead *shrug*

Askil the Undecided
23-08-2010, 14:11
Well if we're going to start comparing them to other game systems read my previous post carefully please before discounting it.

A power glove like that in necromunda or DH isn't the kind of weapon that is Sx2-ing a SM is it? It's just a glove with a power field and possibly some small servo assistance.

Considering that the full force of a person's strength in a H2H blow is essentially their momentum something capable of doubling it would have to effectively double either their speed or weight (or effect both to generate a similar level of resultant force.) in essence it would be heavy.

Also how the idea that something being twice the weight of a greatsword is "not that heavy" rationalised?

MagosHereticus
23-08-2010, 15:11
obviously the wearer can only throw haymakers whilst attacking with a power fist, and by the time he has done that a power claw wearing assailant has had enough time to jab him in the eye....

Sai-Lauren
23-08-2010, 15:17
Considering that the full force of a person's strength in a H2H blow is essentially their momentum something capable of doubling it would have to effectively double either their speed or weight (or effect both to generate a similar level of resultant force.) in essence it would be heavy.

Does it (and it would be mass, not weight ;)), or does it double the amount of damage caused?

If the surrounding field disrupts molecular bonds, then it could conceivably penetrate further into the material than the phsyical glove could on it's own - which could in turn allow them to access internal components or tear away armour to further expose things.

And even if it is heavy, no warrior would carry a weapon that would leave him at such a significant disadvantage - no matter how effective it is. At the very least, he'd be training with it every possible minute of every day to get used to it so that if would impede him as little as possible - there's likely forms of a "Power Glove Kata" in various Marine chapters (especialy the "Fist" ones :)).

There's also AG tech like suspensors which would offset the weight for (likely) comparatively low volume, cost and power requirements compared to the Power Glove itself.

Son of Sanguinius
23-08-2010, 16:48
Does it (and it would be mass, not weight ;)), or does it double the amount of damage caused?

If the surrounding field disrupts molecular bonds, then it could conceivably penetrate further into the material than the phsyical glove could on it's own - which could in turn allow them to access internal components or tear away armour to further expose things.

And even if it is heavy, no warrior would carry a weapon that would leave him at such a significant disadvantage - no matter how effective it is. At the very least, he'd be training with it every possible minute of every day to get used to it so that if would impede him as little as possible - there's likely forms of a "Power Glove Kata" in various Marine chapters (especialy the "Fist" ones :)).

There's also AG tech like suspensors which would offset the weight for (likely) comparatively low volume, cost and power requirements compared to the Power Glove itself.

I too was under the impression that the power fist increased the wearer's grip strength, not the strength of the swing. It seems that the only things really helping a punch would be the force field and the increased size and durability of the fist.

Thank you all for your answers and conjecture. Keep it coming. :)

Lupe
23-08-2010, 17:07
I think the way Power Fists limit your initiative is that you're limited by the fact that you have to actually aim that fist at something.

Compared to lightning claws, which are basically thirty inch razor blades (covered in the same field of crackling energy, but still), your chances of hitting something with a fist are lower, since you can't just swing a power fist at random and still hit.

Alternatively, a power fist could slow you since you want to plan your move, otherwise your hand will be exposed to every nearby sharp object still firmly in the grasp of a hostile. Compared to that, lightning claws can be used to block and parry oncoming attacks. And you usually have two of them, so you don't have to parry a blow with your bolter.

Buftoon
23-08-2010, 17:20
on a similar note, what would happen if you had a pair on ( a la Calgar) and you punched your hands together? Would the energy released pull you apart as each fist is repelled by the other? Pretty awesoem way to go :P

Son of Sanguinius
23-08-2010, 17:23
I think the way Power Fists limit your initiative is that you're limited by the fact that you have to actually aim that fist at something.

That implies you don't have to aim with other weapons? :eyebrows:


Compared to lightning claws, which are basically thirty inch razor blades (covered in the same field of crackling energy, but still), your chances of hitting something with a fist are lower, since you can't just swing a power fist at random and still hit.

I think what you mean to suggest is that the reach of the fist is significantly smaller, which is a good point.


Alternatively, a power fist could slow you since you want to plan your move, otherwise your hand will be exposed to every nearby sharp object still firmly in the grasp of a hostile. Compared to that, lightning claws can be used to block and parry oncoming attacks. And you usually have two of them, so you don't have to parry a blow with your bolter.

I could understand that the size of the gauntlet makes parrying more difficult, but I don't understand how the composition of the gauntlet would have anything but a beneficial effect on the ability to parry. A skilled user could also use it like a lower-quality storm shield, if the power field does in fact cover the majority of the weapon.

Lupe
23-08-2010, 17:46
That implies you don't have to aim with other weapons? :eyebrows:
...
I think what you mean to suggest is that the reach of the fist is significantly smaller, which is a good point.

Not necessarily. Given the same reach, a fist will cause most damage at the point it lands, AND provided it still has enough momentum. By contrast, slashing three blades will absolutely wreck whatever it comes across along the full length of its swing.



I could understand that the size of the gauntlet makes parrying more difficult, but I don't understand how the composition of the gauntlet would have anything but a beneficial effect on the ability to parry. A skilled user could also use it like a lower-quality storm shield, if the power field does in fact cover the majority of the weapon.

It's not actually the size. It's the more ample movements you need to use it. Swinging a power fist actually means that at some point, your whole arm will be outstretched and exposed. By contrast, lightning claws can still be effective with a flick of the wrist. It's basically a rapier vs mace situation, except the weapons are actually hand mounted. Or, if you like, a more simplified version would be a brass knuckle vs a switchblade.

Freak Ona Leash
23-08-2010, 17:47
I've always seen powerfists/gloves as a sort of brute force weapon. You don't jab with a powerfist, you probably don't even throw a cross. You throw hooks and overhands. Basically, it takes the "brawling" style of Boxing (and other modern martial arts) to the extreme, as well as the oft-touted concept of "One shot, one kill." The powerfist is not a weapon to practice "The Sweet Science" with. It isn't about jabbing, keeping distance, disrupting your opponent's rhythm and wearing him/her down until delivering the knockout blow. It is ALL about throwing that one punch that causes the foe to not only die but to be annihilated. Like many things in the 40k universe, it is not subtle. It is not for finesse. It is for killing things loudly and proudly.

Therefore, I imagine that the low I value comes not totally from the weapon's weight or size; these would be offset somewhat by the servos and other mechanics of the weapon itself. But rather it comes from the fighting style associated with a powerfist. Powerfist-wielders are not traditional "boxers", standing at range, picking you apart with jabs. Nor are they pressure fighters, forcing their opponents to the ground with a flurry of blows. The best thing I can compare it to with my limited knowledge would be the philosophy of Shotokan karate fighters and other point-sparring traditions. They believe (mistakenly in my view but I'm rather inexperienced) that one strike should end the fight. Hence the point-sparring rules: one clean, powerful strike to the opponent ends the match or gains a point or whatever. The powerfist is like that. But more deadly. One strike from a powerfist will end most things. Therefore, the powerfist-wielder uses all his skill, strength and other qualities to land one solid strike that will end the battle.

In my opinion, that is why powerfists have an Initiative penalty. Can they move faster? Probably, but not as effectively. Why waste energy and potentially leave yourself open to counterattack by throwing strikes that may not use the full potential of your weapon? Better to bide your time, to act almost as a counter-puncher and force your opponent to attack you and leave himself open to counterattack by your massive, energy-infused boxing glove ;)

Just my opinion of course :)

Sir_Turalyon
23-08-2010, 17:57
the "Heavy" rule of powerfist represents fact they are impossible to parry with. A fighter armed with sword or axe can fence and parry some blows from powerfist (or other swordsman) while making his own attacks, while powerfist user can try to attack but can't try to defend himself. Hence swordsman has far more cotrol and initiative in combat, which in game terms means he gets to roll first.

Freak Ona Leash
23-08-2010, 18:03
the "Heavy" rule of powerfist represents fact they are impossible to parry with. A fighter armed with sword or axe can fence and parry some blows from powerfist (or other swordsman) while making his own attacks, while powerfist user can try to attack but can't try to defend himself. Hence swordsman has far more cotrol and initiative in combat, which in game terms means he gets to roll first.

Makes no sense, sadly. A powerfist uses the same "energy" as a power sword. And if you've ever seen a martial artist fight, you'll know that they can defend themselves with their hands from attacks. That is, they can blow and catch blows, especially if wearing gloves.

Therefore, would make sense that a powerfist can be used in a similar manner. Yes, they are heavier but according to the stats cited by Hellebore, they aren't much heavier in-universe than a sword. And they have the benefit of built-in mechanical assistance through servos and the like.

massey
23-08-2010, 19:10
The low initiative is based entirely around the Instant Death rule. Since Power Fists can generally inflict ID, they are made slower for game balance purposes. In 2nd edition, where that mechanic did not exist, Power Fists struck at normal initiative.

Son of Sanguinius
23-08-2010, 19:13
The low initiative is based entirely around the Instant Death rule. Since Power Fists can generally inflict ID, they are made slower for game balance purposes. In 2nd edition, where that mechanic did not exist, Power Fists struck at normal initiative.

I had a sneaking suspicion of this. Good to know I'm not the only one.

Freak Ona Leash
23-08-2010, 19:20
The low initiative is based entirely around the Instant Death rule. Since Power Fists can generally inflict ID, they are made slower for game balance purposes. In 2nd edition, where that mechanic did not exist, Power Fists struck at normal initiative.

This, basically. I figured a background explanation would be cool though. ;)

Arkondak
23-08-2010, 21:39
The entire gauntlet is covered in a power field and the servos assist the grip rather than the force of a punch.

the strike at initiative 1 is because the weapon has a shorter reach, and because it is harder to grab an enemy with the fist than to hit him with a sword. the extra damage is because the powerfist is crushing the enemy instead of slicing him. you can just punch the crap out of people with the power fist in game simply by choosing to count the attacks as normal close combat weapon attacks. you strike at initiative, and no longer ignore armor saves, or at least you could in 3rd edition. That was a while ago, so things may have changed.

The way i've always seen it, were you to set a stick of butter on a cutting board and swing a butter knife that you just ran through some hot water at it, that's what a power sword would do to you. If you were to grab that same stick of butter instead with your hand and squeeze, thats what a powerfist does to you. You could punch the butter and it would mess it up, it just wouldn't be as completely destroyed. In short it takes a little more time with the fist, and you are more exposed while you are attacking, but the results are much more impressive

Son of Sanguinius
23-08-2010, 22:00
The entire gauntlet is covered in a power field and the servos assist the grip rather than the force of a punch.

the strike at initiative 1 is because the weapon has a shorter reach, and because it is harder to grab an enemy with the fist than to hit him with a sword. the extra damage is because the powerfist is crushing the enemy instead of slicing him. you can just punch the crap out of people with the power fist in game simply by choosing to count the attacks as normal close combat weapon attacks. you strike at initiative, and no longer ignore armor saves, or at least you could in 3rd edition. That was a while ago, so things may have changed.

The way i've always seen it, were you to set a stick of butter on a cutting board and swing a butter knife that you just ran through some hot water at it, that's what a power sword would do to you. If you were to grab that same stick of butter instead with your hand and squeeze, thats what a powerfist does to you. You could punch the butter and it would mess it up, it just wouldn't be as completely destroyed. In short it takes a little more time with the fist, and you are more exposed while you are attacking, but the results are much more impressive

Have you ever been punched? ;)

I don't think I can agree that it is necessarily that difficult to grab your opponent and squeeze. The sheer size of the grip would make things easier. Not only that, but you can poke, slap, and punch with the weapon and all have devastating effects it would seem.

I do agree that the reach and weight make you more exposed however.

Freak Ona Leash
23-08-2010, 22:35
Have you ever been punched? ;)

I don't think I can agree that it is necessarily that difficult to grab your opponent and squeeze. The sheer size of the grip would make things easier. Not only that, but you can poke, slap, and punch with the weapon and all have devastating effects it would seem.

I do agree that the reach and weight make you more exposed however.

Indeed, the art of "grabbing your opponent and squeezing" has been around for a while. We usually call it wrestling, jujitsu or something similar. SAMBO, if you're a dirty commie ;)

I do find the concept that a powerfist is a grappling weapon rather than a striking weapon interesting. But, being a fanboy of striking arts as I am, in my own little world it is always for punching. :p

Arkondak
23-08-2010, 22:37
Have you ever been punched? ;)

I don't think I can agree that it is necessarily that difficult to grab your opponent and squeeze. The sheer size of the grip would make things easier. Not only that, but you can poke, slap, and punch with the weapon and all have devastating effects it would seem.

I do agree that the reach and weight make you more exposed however.

Yes i have; but not recently and never by choice. To carry your analogy a bit further, From what i can recall, being strangled was much worse, as was being stabbed with blunt kitchen utensils. ;)

In all seriousness though I admit, mine wasn't the strongest analogy ever. I think the weakness was that there is no kitchen appliance with a servo assisted grip, Perhaps if you put a stick of butter in a bench vise...

Poking, slapping and punching with a powerfist would do damage more akin to a normal power weapon, the actual double strength damage comes from grabbing enemies and using the servo grip and the power field to crush smaller opponents or tear pieces off of larger enemies, and that is more difficult to do. Here, i'm afraid we will be forced to disagree.

Jayden63
23-08-2010, 23:00
I was always under the impression that power fists are crushing weapons. Thus slower. you actually grab something and then crush it like we do a tin can. This is why Ork power claws function the same way. Power claws crush with blades and pistons. Powerfists with distablizing energy.

I also think that lightning claws use powerfist construction, but don't have the energy fields concentrated around the whole thing, but just focus it into the blades. And since its a slashing weapon you don't have to wait for things to actually crush.

Son of Sanguinius
23-08-2010, 23:05
I was always under the impression that power fists are crushing weapons. Thus slower. you actually grab something and then crush it like we do a tin can. This is why Ork power claws function the same way. Power claws crush with blades and pistons. Powerfists with distablizing energy.

I also think that lightning claws use powerfist construction, but don't have the energy fields concentrated around the whole thing, but just focus it into the blades. And since its a slashing weapon you don't have to wait for things to actually crush.

Let's assume they are crushing weapons. Is there anything besides reach that dictates they are slower? If they get a grip on their target, the damage is already being dealt. The instant the fist makes contact, the field goes to work.

AndrewGPaul
24-08-2010, 00:09
The origin of the "power fists are slow and cumbersome" myth is in Space Hulk. The thing is, that was in the context of Space Marine Terminators as a whole being slower in a fight than a purestrain genestealer. Nothing to do with the weapon specifically. In fact, it was the chain fist that was described as being a more cumbersome weapon; the game represented that by stating that a model with a chain fist got no benefit in close combat, despite the additional damage capability.

Askil, I'm not sure that saying the weapon depicted in Necromunda is different from that depicted in WH40K; they were the same thing in 2nd edition 40K, after all; a difference in rules doesn't necessarily imply a difference in 'fact'.

Son of Sanguinius
24-08-2010, 01:16
The origin of the "power fists are slow and cumbersome" myth is in Space Hulk. The thing is, that was in the context of Space Marine Terminators as a whole being slower in a fight than a purestrain genestealer. Nothing to do with the weapon specifically. In fact, it was the chain fist that was described as being a more cumbersome weapon; the game represented that by stating that a model with a chain fist got no benefit in close combat, despite the additional damage capability.

Hell, most things are slower than a purestrain genestealer.

Hellebore
24-08-2010, 02:17
Askil, I'm not sure that saying the weapon depicted in Necromunda is different from that depicted in WH40K; they were the same thing in 2nd edition 40K, after all; a difference in rules doesn't necessarily imply a difference in 'fact'.

Hence mentioning the weapons from other systems. It was to discredit the idea that the 40k 5th edition powerfist is representative of the background by showing how differently it is depicted in rules in other system despite being the same weapon.

You can look at many weapons to see that, the assault cannon has had something like 4 incarnations - 2nd ed, 3rd ed heavy 3, 3.5th ed heavy 4, 4th ed heavy 4 rending.

Thus the rules in 40k are not necessarily reflective of the actually 'fact' of the weapon.

Most powerfist attacks I've read or seen (in computer games, like the original space hulk) were punches rather the grapples. I've always had a soft spot for the powerfist back hand as well.

Hellebore

Son of Sanguinius
24-08-2010, 04:46
I've always had a soft spot for the powerfist back hand as well.

Here in the US we refer to that as a pimp-slap, though I'm afraid only Marneus Calgar and Sigmar are able to do it outside of designated areas.

Post
24-08-2010, 05:00
It's an odd weapon though, in melee reach is very important, and the Power Fist has the least reach of any weapon. Gauntlets were weaponized during the Middle Ages, but they were hardly primary weapons.

Son of Sanguinius
24-08-2010, 05:16
It's an odd weapon though, in melee reach is very important, and the Power Fist has the least reach of any weapon. Gauntlets were weaponized during the Middle Ages, but they were hardly primary weapons.

Which is why I'm skeptical about the supposed difficulties with parrying. I would think a power fist would be an excellent parrying weapon and that such a quality would be required for proper usage.

Polaria
24-08-2010, 06:22
In melee reach is only important up to the point when it becomes a hindrance. A spear wielder has advantage over the sword wielder up to the point when the sword wielder gets "inside" the spear-shafts reach... after which the spear-wielder is in serious trouble.

As for power fists I would imagine they are oroginally planned to be used by 7 feet tall genetically enhanced monsters with power armor... Now that size alone is quite a reach in itself. Also the power armor in itself lends more to "infighting" style of close combat instead of "I'll just stay the hell away from that guy" style. Furthermore, a powerfist wearing space marine is likely to have a pistol as a secondary weapon, providing him quite enough reach to touch anyone who remains outside the range of his powerfist.

Back in times of WWI trench-fighting a pistol and a knife/brass-knuckles-combo used to be quite a winning combination. What was outside the reach of your blade and fist was at pretty much perfect range to shoot at.

Hellebore
24-08-2010, 06:37
That's true although guardsmen and eldar also use powerfists. The orks probably have the same or greater reach than a marine with their apelike anatomy.

Hellebore

Polaria
24-08-2010, 12:23
That's true although guardsmen and eldar also use powerfists.

If I don't remember it wrong its only Striking Scorpion exarchs who use power fists so its a very special weapon for very special elves in very special situations. As such you can assume its users are well aware of the limitations and trained to work with them. Also, shooting stuff with pistol is still a viable solution for anything outside the grasping range. :D



The orks probably have the same or greater reach than a marine with their apelike anatomy.


Yup. Orks probably do have greater reach but if you are a space marine fighting againts dozens of unarmored, pistol and choppa armed ork your best tactic is to charge right into the pile of them. Getting right on their skin prevents them from shooting and makes choppa very unwieldy to swing about so they are reduced to blunting their teef in your power armor while you crush their heads one by one like a bunch of ripe tomatoes.

Sai-Lauren
24-08-2010, 12:47
If Power Gloves are slower because of reach, why don't people without weapons count as I1 as well? ;)

Don't forget that someone with a Power Glove has another three limbs (and can shoulder charge, head butt etc) - the Power Glove may give the killing blow, but that doesn't mean that they're just teeing up the worlds biggest haymaker in melee.

They'd almost certainly be dead before they ever got to throw it if that's all they did.

I1 for Power Gloves is an arbitrary rules balance issue to get around another rules balance issue (instant death), which itself came in as an arbitrary rules balance issue to replace another rule (weapons doing multiple wounds) that they removed to "simplify and speed up" the system. :rolleyes:

Anyway, like I said eariler, there probably are "Power Glove katas", some ways of using it will have it as a primarily defensive weapon to block or parry blows until the killing blow can be taken, others will use grappling holds (most Marine chapters IMO) or sweeps and throws to take the enemy down for the kill, or using a second weapon to open a hole in the opponents defenses, or even just focusing on dodging the enemies blows until they overreach and open themselves up, and so on.

Add in that they'll vary on whether the Glove is used to grab, punch, chop (or slap), tear or crush, and the PGk for the Imperial Fists might vary wildly from both the Crimson Fists and the Black Templars PGks, let alone the Space Wolves or Ultramarines.



In melee reach is only important up to the point when it becomes a hindrance. A spear wielder has advantage over the sword wielder up to the point when the sword wielder gets "inside" the spear-shafts reach... after which the spear-wielder is in serious trouble.

Which is why, IIRC, some troops armed with long weapons and shields used to hold a dagger in their shield hand as well.

Son of Sanguinius
24-08-2010, 17:18
Yup. Orks probably do have greater reach but if you are a space marine fighting againts dozens of unarmored, pistol and choppa armed ork your best tactic is to charge right into the pile of them. Getting right on their skin prevents them from shooting and makes choppa very unwieldy to swing about so they are reduced to blunting their teef in your power armor while you crush their heads one by one like a bunch of ripe tomatoes.

If you're a Space Marine fighting against dozens of Orks, your best idea is rally with your squad. Charging into a mob and brawling practically guarantees death. Unless of course we're playing the new Space Marine video game. Watching the gameplay was so depressing. It's like watching a racing game where no matter how hard you crash into the wall, the cars don't get damaged.

If an Ork is too close to use his weapons effectively, so is the Space Marine. They both need relatively similar amounts of separation to best utilize their tactics in hand to hand combat.

@Sai-Lauren. You know, that seems to be the best explanation I've heard so far as to why the power fists would be slower. The nature of the weapon dictates a more defensive style that waits for an opening, or at the very least, an opportunity to bludgeon an opening into existence. But you also bring up the counterpoint to this, which is that there are plenty of other weapons for a warrior to create an opening with as they bring the haymaker around. I guess it would follow the same style of attack that one would use with a short sword and a heavier striking weapon like an axe or warhammer.

FlashGordon
24-08-2010, 19:55
Are there any BL books that depict powerfists as slow and cumbersome weapons? It would be especially hard to rationalise on a power armoured warrior where the armour provides a strength boost to offset the weight (which really wouldn't be THAT much).

Hellebore

Not really, though the only one i remember right now is the Crimson fist SM battle novel, where both Cortez and Kantor swing them around without any problem.

Son of Sanguinius
24-08-2010, 20:01
Not really, though the only one i remember right now is the Crimson fist SM battle novel, where both Cortez and Kantor swing them around without any problem.

If anything, certain weapons presumable power weapons like the sword on the cover of Angels of Darkness would be far more cumbersome than a servo-assisted gauntlet.

FlashGordon
24-08-2010, 20:30
If anything, certain weapons presumable power weapons like the sword on the cover of Angels of Darkness would be far more cumbersome than a servo-assisted gauntlet.

Hmm? You must be thinking of another novel. But i doub't a marine would have a problem swinging cloud's(you know from final fantasy 7..) sword around.

Edit: ah noticed that AoD has a new cover.

Freak Ona Leash
24-08-2010, 20:46
Well, a marine may not have trouble lifting it but actually swinging it around in a coherent fashion? Probably difficult, considering its balance would be immensely screwed up. ;)

AndrewGPaul
24-08-2010, 22:36
The armour itself likely compensates for that, just like it compensates for the additional weight of a heavy weapon.

Son of Sanguinius
24-08-2010, 23:16
The armour itself likely compensates for that, just like it compensates for the additional weight of a heavy weapon.

True, but the point of compensating the weight of a heavy bolter is so that the Space Marine can fire the weapon without need for further stabilization, like an Imperial Guard weapon team uses. A sword of that size would be extremely unwieldy, even with enhanced strength.

Hellebore
25-08-2010, 00:49
If I don't remember it wrong its only Striking Scorpion exarchs who use power fists so its a very special weapon for very special elves in very special situations. As such you can assume its users are well aware of the limitations and trained to work with them. Also, shooting stuff with pistol is still a viable solution for anything outside the grasping range. :D


Actually they were freely available to eldar in 2nd ed. There were even pictures of guardians with slightly larger mechanical arms that represented powerfists. The old eldar plastic assault weapon sprue had a power fist on it.

EDIT: Dark Heresy gives the strength of a space marine (or ork nob, genestealer etc) as strong enough to pick up a car... yet a 7kg great sword can't be used to parry.

Hellebore

Son of Sanguinius
25-08-2010, 00:58
Actually they were freely available to eldar in 2nd ed. There were even pictures of guardians with slightly larger mechanical arms that represented powerfists. The old eldar plastic assault weapon sprue had a power fist on it.

EDIT: Dark Heresy gives the strength of a space marine (or ork nob, genestealer etc) as strong enough to pick up a car... yet a 7kg great sword can't be used to parry.

Hellebore

That seems to be an issue across the gaming systems. There's no difference between a power fist issued to something the size of a Space Marine and something the size of an Imperial Guard Officer. Or in the case of a great sword, a 7kg weapon could be something that a normal man couldn't effectively use to parry, but it could be a standard sized hand weapon for a Space Marine or Ork.