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angrySCORCH62
23-08-2010, 12:45
Well, In one of the threads I found in the FAQ thread was about warp entities being good. Anyhow when someone was listing the good emotions of the big four they mentioned Khorne as Honour and Justice. Now it seems to me that all the of his followers are madmen obsessing over battle and destruction more than the honour of the battle and forms of justice.

The examples I can think of are Crull from DOW WA, Kharn, Basically all the World Eaters and theirs probably more that I can't think of that fit the bill.

The only outliners are the Bezerkers from the short story "Let the Blood flow" (page 49 Chaos Codex) yet I wouldn't consider them honourable, just not mad.

blackcherry
23-08-2010, 13:06
Khorne Bezerkers are a rather extreme example of Khornes beliefs and do not accuratly represent most of his followers. In fact in the latest CSM codex, there is a story that involves KB and Kharne.

Whilst they do love to shed blood, they show tactical thinking (sheltering in cover) and don't just run madly into killzones. In fact they are scared of Kharne because he is such a nutcase that he will kill anything around him and attack anything, even if rational thought would say otherwise.

On the whole, the WE legion has the whole range of Khornes belief in combat, using Havoc squads and other long range weaponry when they need to take out a target that would be suicide just charging. Its just that the WE tend to be on the more frenzied side of the spectrum as part of their initiation involves a partial labotomy and the insertion of a chip into the brain that can trigger bezerker rages during combat. That and its easier for writers to condense khorne down to 'Kill, Maim, Burn' when writing, rather that flesh out the subtle nuances that exist.

Hope that helps.

Col. Dash
23-08-2010, 13:16
Yeah remember, if they are all mindless berserkers, who is going to fly and fix the ships and drive the vehicles? Think of them as the supposed viking berserkers of old, they are quite normal(albeit a very short temper) until they get riled up.

Gue'Vesa'Vre Kilo
23-08-2010, 13:24
They do get battle frenzy, but as several posters above me had said, they do have brains. Also, they still practice martial honour in battle IIRC. I have a very very vague memory of reading something that talks about some imperial character went into a killing spree when battling khorne followers and killed quite a few marines (chaos ones), and then some notable khorne character (maybe kharn, maybe not) stopped and actually saluted the Imperial guy during the heat of battle. I think the OP (and me as well) would appreciate it if someone can clearify the incident I mentioned above.

Freak Ona Leash
23-08-2010, 13:31
They do get battle frenzy, but as several posters above me had said, they do have brains. Also, they still practice martial honour in battle IIRC. I have a very very vague memory of reading something that talks about some imperial character went into a killing spree when battling khorne followers and killed quite a few marines (chaos ones), and then some notable khorne character (maybe kharn, maybe not) stopped and actually saluted the Imperial guy during the heat of battle. I think the OP (and me as well) would appreciate it if someone can clearify the incident I mentioned above.

2nd Ed. Space Wolf codex: Wolf Priest extraordinaire, Ulrik The Slayer, killed 8 World Eaters in one battle (I believe on Armageddon.) A World Eater lord then saluted the Space Wolf for his martial prowess.

Mage
23-08-2010, 13:43
That story really makes me want to add more WE berserkers to my army, and finish my current ones. That bit of fluff is a gem.

Whitehorn
23-08-2010, 13:50
Khorne is a huge sphere. Some sub-aspect may be honourable, just, even merciful. Rage and hatred are much stronger emotions and fuels him greatly. It's easy to hate, easy to hurt.

Berserkers.. are exactly that. Overcome by rage in the heat of battle.

Londinium
23-08-2010, 13:51
It's a shame that kinda of fluff is non existant these days and almost everything revolving around Berserkers is that they're drooling maniacs.

Clockwork-Knight
23-08-2010, 14:07
Since when has Khorne ever been mentioned as honorable in some part? Amongs his infinite followers some may be honorable and worship him as such, but Khorne itself is just a pseudo-sentient warp storm that wants as much bloodshed and slaughter there is possible.
Nobody has so far ever found a piece of background lore about Khorne and honorable stuff itself.

Col. Dash
23-08-2010, 14:09
They have stupified all the chaos marines to make it a black and white subject. Probably because GW thinks its newer customers are idiots and wouldnt understand grey. I think every army in the game is grey except Tau which make them a strange abheration in the emo world of 40k. And even then, the newer Tau codex, its pretty obvious that GW is trying to tone down the Tau are the good guys feel they had. I think they should just stick to the grim dark grey thing and not pick sides and let players chose for themselves who they want to be good and who they want to be bad. If players like me, for example, chose to have say Night lords who are still true to the cause of justice of their primarch then so be it, if someone else chooses to go evil bad villain Night Lords hey cool, it means he and I arguing the case is the same as the warbands themselves having the argument like they do in the fluff. Same goes for Berserkers. Brawn with brains or insane frothing crazy guys, let the players figure it out and justify it.

angrySCORCH62
23-08-2010, 14:24
Its just that the WE tend to be on the more frenzied side of the spectrum as part of their initiation involves a partial labotomy and the insertion of a chip into the brain that can trigger bezerker rages during combat.

Sorry whats a labotomy that the World Eaters have?

Thanks for the answers guys

massey
23-08-2010, 15:03
Most Berzerkers are drooling maniacs. Khorne isn't a god of honorable combat. Some of his followers may be honorable, but Khorne is not. That's why Kharne is his chosen one. Now, some Berzerkers still respect other great warriors. They may salute a worthy opponent, or decide to settle something in a one-on-one duel. They might avoid slaughtering women and children. But none of that comes from Khorne. That comes from the remnants of their old personality. Honor, justice, noble combat, those are the gateway drugs.

When an honorable warrior starts out on the path to Khorne worship, his emotions may be 90% honor and 10% rage. As time goes on, the rage becomes more important. His ideas of honor become more brutal, more savage. He might not even realize the change is taking place. Eventually, his emotions are 10% honor and 90% rage. He paints the symbol of Khorne on his shield, and while he may still carry the trappings of an honorable warrior (won't strike a fallen enemy - he wants them to stand up first, no sport in slaughtering women and children, salutes a worthy foe), it is no longer why he fights. He's now a twisted parody of what he once was.

Kharne is the end point of this metamorphosis. He has cast away all notions of honor or justice. He fights for slaughter and slaughter alone.

blackcherry
23-08-2010, 15:36
Sorry whats a labotomy that the World Eaters have?

Thanks for the answers guys
Could you clarify what you mean? Do you mean what sort of labotomy do the world eaters have and how does it affect them, or what is a labotomy?

abasio
23-08-2010, 15:38
Sorry whats a labotomy that the World Eaters have?

Thanks for the answers guys

A lobotomy is a procedure involving cutting the connections to and from the prefrontal cortex in the brain, which controls making choices and moderating behaviour. Therefore severing this can turn you into a psycho (or a vegetable).

I guess the reason most Khorne worshippers appear to be bezerkers is that they are the most noticably Khorne worshippers. Others may worship Khorne but as they do it a little more subtely they are not as noticed.

TheShadowCow
23-08-2010, 18:25
There's a great story in the current CSM book (next to Kharne's entry) detailing some Berzerkers that are battlefield savy and generally pretty smart (i.e. not insane).

Lupe
23-08-2010, 18:45
Well, the fact that Khorne Berzerkers are depicted as blood crazy is, in essence, a side effect of traitor marines being the ultimate beings, designed for war. They would have been far more reckless and far more ferocious than any other soldiers even before turning to Chaos. Khorne worship just exacerbates these traits further.

MortalTurky
23-08-2010, 20:53
World Eaters were supposed to be a bit like flesh tearers today you know, a bit overeager somtimes and so, already before their fall to chaos.
However all world eaters receive a kind of surgery where they get a chip that turns them into blood crazed berzerks. The habit of putting those chips in came from Angrons early years, where he lived as a gladiator.

/MortalTurky

RunepriestRidcully
23-08-2010, 21:53
I hought it was Angron who saluted Ulric before getting banished by a load of Grey Knights? Anyway, it is a shame the way GW as decided to dumb down their games background, it is not just chaos that has suffered this though, but chaos has faced the brunt of it.

Scribe of Khorne
23-08-2010, 22:11
Some people try and bring it back. Some of the later BL novels give me hope that even if the main book (codex/rules) dont really do a good job, atleast the novels will be respectable.

EDIT: Berzerkers are nuts because they are close to the core of what Khorne is. Khorne is a god of all things war, but at His most pure, central focus, He is a God of rage and bloodshed.

Ramius4
23-08-2010, 22:38
Since when has Khorne ever been mentioned as honorable in some part? Amongs his infinite followers some may be honorable and worship him as such, but Khorne itself is just a pseudo-sentient warp storm that wants as much bloodshed and slaughter there is possible.
Nobody has so far ever found a piece of background lore about Khorne and honorable stuff itself.

Wrong. Most of the older fluff (2nd ed and Rogue Trader days) had Khorne troops as being quite honorable. Bloodthirsty does not mean one is stupid or have no sense of martial pride/ honor.

Since 3rd they are victims of unimaginitive writers who thought the original background for Kharn the Betrayer was how they all should be. Kharn is reviled by his own Legion precisely because he is a complete maniac. Somewhere along the lines, the original mentality of Khorne's followers was changed to be a direct mirror of Kharn's. Bigtime retcon.

Scalebug
23-08-2010, 22:57
Not really, actually...

It is really just the case of people thinking the older fluff being like that, because complaining about the current one supposedly makes you cool... :rolleyes:

What has been refered to out of proportion is the idea that a warrior can start off being filled with martial pride and discipline, but this leads him to Khorne, and eventually he will devolve into the base slaughterer we all know and love...

That and the notion that Khorne is about all kinds of warfare, which was really an explanation (not using the more loaded "excuse" here) for the various Epic scale khornate war engines.

Scribe of Khorne
23-08-2010, 23:25
We went over all this last thread.

Khorne follower? Assassin, Gladiator, Berzerker, Duelist, Knight. All can apply, and certainly honor can one of the attributes found within this pool.

Khorne? Raging, Slaughtering, all encompassing psychotic madness.

massey
24-08-2010, 00:09
Wrong. Most of the older fluff (2nd ed and Rogue Trader days) had Khorne troops as being quite honorable. Bloodthirsty does not mean one is stupid or have no sense of martial pride/ honor.


No, that's not true. I'm looking at the 2nd edition Chaos codex right now. It describes Khorne Berzerkers as "virtually uncontrollable either on or off the battlefield". Khorne troops have never been honorable. You disagree? Then provide us a page reference.

Scribe of Khorne
24-08-2010, 00:16
No, that's not true. I'm looking at the 2nd edition Chaos codex right now. It describes Khorne Berzerkers as "virtually uncontrollable either on or off the battlefield". Khorne troops have never been honorable. You disagree? Then provide us a page reference.

To be fair thats the description of berzerkers. :D

SharpSilver
24-08-2010, 00:18
I hought it was Angron who saluted Ulric before getting banished by a load of Grey Knights? Anyway, it is a shame the way GW as decided to dumb down their games background, it is not just chaos that has suffered this though, but chaos has faced the brunt of it.

He was saluted by 'The Lord of the World Eaters himself' Which I presume is meant to be Angron. Which suggest that even followers of Khorne, honour Bloodshed and Carnage even by the enemy. Which is perculier. It's probably the only thing they can relate to because after all, they are berserkers. Living only to Kill, main and shed the blood in the name of their Chaos Puppeteers.

Scribe of Khorne
24-08-2010, 02:48
Puppeteers? Come now. Thousand Sons? Sure, Death Guard? Sure, but the World Eaters had a pretty natural progression to Khorne worship. Its like getting paid to do what you love in their case. ;)

Col. Tartleton
24-08-2010, 05:51
Simplified:

Khorne is the God of Martial Pride. There is Honor there. There is also the drive to do terrible thinks without hesitation. Pride comes before the fall. That is Khorne. The pride and the fall. One eventually becomes obsessed with the taking of life and the power of might makes right takes over. Virtues become nihilism until only one thing remains. The momentary peace as you wet your blade in the blood of the sacrifice. Insanity does not require mania.

Likewise Slaanesh is the God of Artistic Perfection. Their is beauty there. There is also the endless bouts of depression and hopelessness that an artist obsessed with perfection suffers. These are mitigated by a desire for euphoria. Be it through lecherous sex acts or intoxicants or psychotic behavior one soon forgets what perfection they once pursued and now seek nothing but pushing the envelopes of their addictions. What was once a search for perfection has become a downward spiral into places the artist never need have gone.

The path of Tzeentch is the search for Hope. One seeks ever greater knowledge for the sake of a better tommorrow. Philosophers walk the winding paths of Tzeentch. Then one becomes consumed with exploring the myriad possibilities of could have been and what could be. Obsession with controlling fate for the better soon fades away and one simply is left with an obsession with control. Now you begin to destroy what it was that you set out for.

Nurgle is the way of Happiness. One is beset with suffering. The mind becomes melancholy the body whithers away and there is nothing that can get you out of it. Nurgle is the voice in your head that says "always look on the sunny side of life." Nurgle is about putting on a reel big fish album and saying "Everything sucks" Nurgle is your buddy saying "I'll drink to that." Nurgle is a personal god. The others are not. Nurgle is laughing at yourself. Not caring about little things. Then you stop bathing because "who cares if I smell funny." and not seeing a doctor because "If its going to kill me its going to kill me." Eventually the only thing keeping you together is your good cheer. Everyone else may have abandoned you but Nurgles still there.

[Maybe not 100% status quo but its my interpretation at least.]

TheLaughingGod
24-08-2010, 06:56
Simplified:

[...my interpretation at least.]

Aside from the bit about Hope, everything you just wrote is your own personal fanon. Sorry, boss. None of that is canon.

Khorne is a god of slaughter, bloodshed and anger. Not martial pride or honor. Never has been. There was never any background that supported that idea, it's just a bunch of oldbies and pretend oldbies repeating falsehoods.

Carry on.

imperial90
24-08-2010, 08:08
That wasnt his point you know, his point was that its an aspect of khorne only because it sets you on the path to Khorne, when youve become a true adherrent however is "The momentary peace as you wet your blade in the blood of the sacrifice. Insanity does not require mania." Sounds pretty khorne like to me....

The gods are about extremes, and love it when their followers reach those extremes, but each step along the way to that depravity is just as important, but it all, atleast when used in that particular gods name, leads to those depraved psychotic mad men we all know as chaos worshippers

Hasan ibn Sabbah
24-08-2010, 14:16
Nurgle is the way of Happiness. One is beset with suffering. The mind becomes melancholy the body whithers away and there is nothing that can get you out of it. Nurgle is the voice in your head that says "always look on the sunny side of life." Nurgle is about putting on a reel big fish album and saying "Everything sucks" Nurgle is your buddy saying "I'll drink to that." Nurgle is a personal god. The others are not. Nurgle is laughing at yourself. Not caring about little things. Then you stop bathing because "who cares if I smell funny." and not seeing a doctor because "If its going to kill me its going to kill me." Eventually the only thing keeping you together is your good cheer. Everyone else may have abandoned you but Nurgles still there.


This is win!

Askil the Undecided
24-08-2010, 23:34
Aside from the bit about Hope, everything you just wrote is your own personal fanon. Sorry, boss. None of that is canon.

Khorne is a god of slaughter, bloodshed and anger. Not martial pride or honor. Never has been. There was never any background that supported that idea, it's just a bunch of oldbies and pretend oldbies repeating falsehoods.

Carry on.

Go on, show me your page reference saying so.

Then cross check it with the Liber Chaotica, and the armybooks that the fluff in the Codex you're reading were cropped and reduced from.

"Khorne respects strength, honour and martial skill." p13 Realm of Chaos

"Khorne despises Slaanesh, whose prancing fopperies are an affront to Khorne's sense of honour and martial pride." p14 Realm of Chaos

"Chained to his throne are flesh hounds, and it is written in dark texts that a follower can call upon khorne to let loose these merciless hunters upon a foe, in particular those craven enemes who refuse to fight in open battle." p19 Hordes of Chaos

"for a champion of Khorne is the embodiment of the warrior who battles his enemy face to face" p19 Hordes of Chaos

Brother Siccarius
25-08-2010, 00:09
Well, In one of the threads I found in the FAQ thread was about warp entities being good. Anyhow when someone was listing the good emotions of the big four they mentioned Khorne as Honour and Justice. Now it seems to me that all the of his followers are madmen obsessing over battle and destruction more than the honour of the battle and forms of justice.

The examples I can think of are Crull from DOW WA, Kharn, Basically all the World Eaters and theirs probably more that I can't think of that fit the bill.

The only outliners are the Bezerkers from the short story "Let the Blood flow" (page 49 Chaos Codex) yet I wouldn't consider them honourable, just not mad.

The big four are made up of very raw, very primal, singular emotions. Which is why they are powerful.

To answer the real question though, Berserkers are only usually shown on the battlefield, where they are, well, berserking. Off the battlefield, when the anger isn't flowing hot, they're a bit more rational.

But only a bit.

Ville
25-08-2010, 12:26
Simplified:



I donīt care if it is canon or not, you understand the nature of Chaos so well that I wouldnīt be surprised if someone from Ordo Hereticus came knocking on your door! Great stuff!:cool:

mob16151
25-08-2010, 22:27
Why do all Khorne Bezerkers appear insane? It's the Bunny Ears, and Metal Boxes.