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woodfin
23-08-2010, 17:18
I was thinking about it and I realized that corporations have existed pretty much everywhere so I was wondering if there are any big companies in 40k.

Londinium
23-08-2010, 17:26
It's not something which has been really touched upon from my reading of the 40k background. The Imperium seems to be very Communistic in it's use of resources and it's allocation. Of course I have no doubt there are big corporations out there in the 40k world. It's just that describing multinational corps dominating the people is more of a cyberpunk thing than a 40k thing. In 40k the writers would much rather write about the state dominating every aspect of production and citizens lives, as in Stalinist Russia and Nazi Germany, rather than overpowerful corporations.

Iuris
23-08-2010, 17:26
Dark heresy materials mention such entities, although mostly as trading cartels or merchant families/clans. Still, they generally should exist, but it may well depend upon the individual world.

Shamana
23-08-2010, 17:31
Iuris is right, DH and possibly Rogue Trader (the new RPG, not the old tabletop game ruleset) mention similar entities. The 40k verse has worlds ranging the gamut from prehistoric wastelands to megalithic cities that any cyberpunk game would be proud of, so large planetary corporations are quite likely. Mind you, I'm not sure if "corporations" is the right word here - iirc a corporation is an entity designed to give its shareholders no responsibility if things go wrong, and in 40k the Imperium is very keen on being able to hold people... responsible. Nobles and guilds might get away with a lot of things, but if fecal matter hits the fan and drop pods start falling out of the atmosphere, no amount of lawyers can save your hind quarters.

woodfin
23-08-2010, 17:34
Dark heresy materials mention such entities, although mostly as trading cartels or merchant families/clans. Still, they generally should exist, but it may well depend upon the individual world.

So like Van Saar but bigger?

spetswalshe
23-08-2010, 17:51
Well, the Van Saar aren't a corporation any more than any of the other Necromunda houses - they just look more like one.

DH does indeed have many examples of cartels, syndicates and corporations, including entire worlds run by them. Really, though, without overarching interplanetary laws, there is little to distinguish between a trading cartel, mining corporation or mercenary syndicate and an equivalent noble house, Mechanicus district or democratic government. Mercantile laws, trading practices and labour rights are in no way universal, and I would expect most powerful businesses to evolve into noble houses over time.

mrln68
23-08-2010, 18:55
In the various Forge World books - they talk about the different forge worlds trying to get military contracts to supply regiments and what not...so it would seem that there is something going on beyond just cranking out tanks.

Whether it is a prestige thing, or something more material - they never really address it. The feeling I get from reading them is that things are more fascist than communist. The Imperial government takes it's tithes - then the rest of the stuff is left over to be bought, sold or traded for materials and what not needed to do business. When they need tanks...they tell a forge world to make tanks. When they need troops...they tell a hive world to make babies. When they need food...they tell an agri world to make food. Beyond that though, they are fairly well left to their own devices. More was covered in the old RT stuff, but that has since been forgotten (not redacted or anything...just ignored).

Every now and again, you will see a blurp about a pleasure/paradise planet - Tahiti in space - where people go on vacation...but then they remember they are supposed to be dark, brooding EMO types and change the subject.

Askil the Undecided
23-08-2010, 23:33
The Imperium is fuedal and as such largely pre-mercantile as a societal structure as such money is pretty scarce and most of he economy works on the exchange of provided services rather than labour for wages. Mainly work for protection.

Gimp
23-08-2010, 23:49
The Uriel Ventris novels have a planet called Pravonis in it that is basicly run by industrial cartels/corporations

bigcheese76
23-08-2010, 23:54
So far as I am aware there is no mention of a large production or service based corporation within the Imperium. I suppose in a way the Adeptus Mechanicus could be seen a fulfilling this role as they are responsible for a large amount of the imperiums production of weapons and vehicles.

I suppose the closest thing to a large corporation we know about in 40k would be the rouge trader. More specifically, a rouge trader who has a speciality, be it in promethium (basically, the BP of the Imperium) or perhaps food production (what we call Tescos). These would be rouge traders running businesses and I suppose with enough influence and resources a rouge trader could become the sole supplier of such items in a given area, thus making him or her and staff somewhat of a corperation.

AndrewGPaul
24-08-2010, 00:18
Not sure why cosmetics salesmen would be getting into food production or fuel refinement. :)

As well as the Rogue Traders, who are more like explorers, missionaries and colonisers than purely mercantile outfits, there are various trading entities in the Imperium. As Askil points out, they're more like guilds or hereditary houses - the Navigators are one example, and the houses, noble or otherwise of Necromunda are another.

The novels are probably a good place to look; the out-of-print Necromunda novels, the Ciaphas Cain novels and the two Dark Heresy novels might be good places to look. Lacrymata, from the Deathwing collection, features a Navigator working for a trading line which runs several ships on various routes, at least some of which call at Earth.

geeksquared
24-08-2010, 00:39
A lot of the Dark Heresy series weapons have what seem to be brand names; Hecutor 10 and so forth. Some of those are carried over from the Eisenhorn and Ravenor novels. I don't think you could call these corporations because that implies shareholders and similar which seem very out of place in the imperium. I think its a safe bet that there are quite large privately owned companies as well as state run industry.

woodfin
24-08-2010, 00:50
A lot of the Dark Heresy series weapons have what seem to be brand names; Hecutor 10 and so forth. Some of those are carried over from the Eisenhorn and Ravenor novels. I don't think you could call these corporations because that implies shareholders and similar which seem very out of place in the imperium. I think its a safe bet that there are quite large privately owned companies as well as state run industry.

A private companies army would be epic especially if we get models for them, can't a man dream?

feno12
24-08-2010, 01:40
@Woodfin, that would be reasonably easy, a guard army using the various mini-factions on offer within, giving each squad unique heraldry and using outside sources for further 'possible' mini-factions.

The skies the limit, theres hundreds of other companies which do guard-like models.

madprophet
24-08-2010, 02:10
Think Italy in the days of the Medicis. There are trading houses and huge trading cartels but nothing like today's multinationals. There are no Imperium-wide corporations, the closest they come is the Rogue Traders who can control entire fleets and armies. Trading houses and the larger cartels might be subsector or sector-wide at best. Most are limited to one or two worlds.

There are different "patterns" of weapons and other gear that are in effect brand names - a few of the major forgeworlds like Triplex Fall might be segmentum wide but they are few and far between.

woodfin
24-08-2010, 02:18
@Woodfin, that would be reasonably easy, a guard army using the various mini-factions on offer within, giving each squad unique heraldry and using outside sources for further 'possible' mini-factions.

The skies the limit, theres hundreds of other companies which do guard-like models.

I was thinking of maybe using the Pig Iron rebel pieces with guard pieces and maybe a tau piece.

Kage2020
24-08-2010, 02:46
Just to point out the blatantly obvious, but it's probably useful to remember that corporation is etymologically derived from corpus, or body, which was used to describe the capital assets of medieval "houses/cartels/business arrangements." Well, if my hazy memory hasn't mangled the terminology since it's been a while since I read up on medieval trade and economy.

That they might not subscribe to the modern description of a corporate entity does not, of course, mean that they couldn't exist as public-owned entities on certain worlds. It's just when you extend this to the Imperium as a whole it tends to break down.

Errr... Maybe I should dig out those books again. :D

Kage

woodfin
24-08-2010, 03:03
@Woodfin, that would be reasonably easy, a guard army using the various mini-factions on offer within, giving each squad unique heraldry and using outside sources for further 'possible' mini-factions.

The skies the limit, theres hundreds of other companies which do guard-like models.

I can't really find any good others besides Pig Iron......

Phoebus
24-08-2010, 17:52
Think Italy in the days of the Medicis. There are trading houses and huge trading cartels but nothing like today's multinationals. There are no Imperium-wide corporations, the closest they come is the Rogue Traders who can control entire fleets and armies. Trading houses and the larger cartels might be subsector or sector-wide at best. Most are limited to one or two worlds.
You took the words right out of my mouth.

Warhammer 40k often looks to Humanity's past for inspiration, and in this case they were spot-on. The Genoans and Venetians of the Renaissance era are an excellent example of mercantile states that in large degrees anticipated our modern capitalism. Their concept of "merchant princes" assigned charters and letters of marque by the state government fits in perfectly with the 40k universe.

Kage2020
24-08-2010, 18:50
Though as the history of those organisations suggested, scaling it up considerably wouldn't be inappropriate. One can definitely see the types of stuff that multinationals get up to being a part of the operation of a 40k enterprise, especially if one considers the relationship of Imperial vs. local authorities and the asymmetries that this is going to create. It's just that mostly the idea of "Imperium-wide" is used to debunk the concept of regionality and multi- and bilateral extensions thereof.

Just like those real world examples, really. It just depends on how "efficient" (or inefficient) you want to make the Imperium, or how little or as much you can believe them being, the general imagery as it interplays on how such a fictional statement/government might work, etc.

Or, at least, that's how it strikes me. If you're going to believe in interstellar trade at all then it seems that you're going to have push the realms of believability a little bit...?

Kage

Col. Tartleton
24-08-2010, 19:00
Well I've always viewed governments, businesses, and religions as being different names for the same thing. Its an organization with a central founder or founders, a hierarchy, it provides services, it collects money, and it is based around a central philosophy.

Whether its a sacred text, a constitution, or a charter.

So in 40k it would be easy to see the lines more blurred between those three main forces. A corporation may be a major administrative power controlling entire sub sectors it may have "bought" the local cults and centralized them into a Church of England type of thing. Then you'll still have the basic companies that form the corporation. Not unlike a Fascist or Communist state. Everything is run by "The Corporation." The churches espouse the values of the good employee and remind the leadership of their duty to the stockholders all in the name of the Immortal God Emperor of Mankind who gave them a charter 10,000 years ago which is locked up in a temple vault in the capital and venerated with all the pomp and circumstance of the Arc of the Covenant.

This is 40k. Everything (but human life) is sacred.

kamedake88
25-08-2010, 02:36
Iuris is right, DH and possibly Rogue Trader (the new RPG, not the old tabletop game ruleset) mention similar entities. The 40k verse has worlds ranging the gamut from prehistoric wastelands to megalithic cities that any cyberpunk game would be proud of, so large planetary corporations are quite likely. Mind you, I'm not sure if "corporations" is the right word here - iirc a corporation is an entity designed to give its shareholders no responsibility if things go wrong, and in 40k the Imperium is very keen on being able to hold people... responsible. Nobles and guilds might get away with a lot of things, but if fecal matter hits the fan and drop pods start falling out of the atmosphere, no amount of lawyers can save your hind quarters.

well said. The 40k universe is designed with a player's creativity in mind. plus remember its a empire of roughly a million worlds. how many stars are in the milky galaxy (some say 100 billion) the possibilities are endless.

Sgt John Keel
25-08-2010, 02:41
Honestly, there's no way the Imperium could exist without private enterprise. (For example, there is probably no village techpriest available to repair the threshing machine.) Personally, I like to view these companies as being on the smaller scale (ie. planetary/system scale or less), and more commonly found on γ-class worlds. On the other hand, I see little room for large enterprise (someone probably still has to mend the holes in the Steel Legion's socks, though) on worlds such as Armageddon.

Considering the vast abstractions the Adeptus Terra has to make when administering military operations, I doubt the local populace of some relatively non-important world would be too happy when they misplace the plans for grain shipments for the next fifty years.

I imagine the planetary governors have vast liberties when it comes to organising the economy of their planet (as long as they pay their tithes that is), so we could see everything from grand five year plans to unregulated markets. (And probably some sort of limited liability company in the inbetweens.)

Hellebore
25-08-2010, 05:19
Well technically the Imperium only issues a few strict laws to the planets it controls.

Aiding agents of the Imperium
Giving over Tithe to the Administratum
Yield Psykers to the Black Ships
Keep the population free of mutants, cultists etc
Never consort with enemies of the Imperium, including Xenos

Apart from that a planet is free to function any way its leader(s) choose, including making its own laws independent of the above.

Hellebore

Malice313
25-08-2010, 07:32
I can't really find any good others besides Pig Iron......

It depends on what "look" you want.

Mark Coppelstones Troopers and Neo Sov's were very similar to the old metal Cadians/Valhallans:

http://www.copplestonecastings.co.uk/range.php?range=FW

Though they came out long before the GW ones.

Hassle free does some cool equipment packs and weapons (Cricket bats anyone?):

http://www.hasslefreeminiatures.co.uk/range.php?range_id=39&subcat_id=17




Well I've always viewed governments, businesses, and religions as being different names for the same thing. Its an organization with a central founder or founders, a hierarchy, it provides services, it collects money, and it is based around a central philosophy.

Indeed. The Knights Templar were an almost exact model of the modern merchant bank.

geeksquared
25-08-2010, 14:56
It just depends on how "efficient" (or inefficient) you want to make the Imperium
Kage

I think that any organisation as large and complex as the imperium is inefficient by its very nature. When you factor in the fact that both travle and communication over any sort of distance is based on something as unreliable and unpredictable as the warp you get a VERY inefficient system that survives purely on the relative self sufficiency of its individual parts (sectors and sub sectors).

Sai-Lauren
25-08-2010, 16:04
And we get into the laws of supply and demand, if there's a demand for things to make the Imperium survive, then someone will step up and supply it for an appropriate fee. :D

But, for example, starships, especially warp capable ones, are listed as massively expensive items, which is going to limit their ownership to:
Governments - we have the Imperial Fleet, Imperial Merchant Navy and so on, but individual system aren't going to be allowed to have them (only intra system ships, which would be comparatively cheap, and likely locally produced), or

Corporations - Organisations that either can afford them outright (incredibly rare), or have assets that can be mortgaged to procure the vessel - which by extension means there has to be banking institutions that can loan the money to them.

The Necromundan houses got mentioned earlier - IMO, it's perfectly possible that they extend out into other parts of the Imperium than just Necromunda (and likely that some aren't even native to Necromunda in the first place), through political marriages, hostile takeovers and even armed violence on occasion to do things like ensure supplies of raw materials, reduce competition, open new markets and increase profits etc.

There could be galaxy spanning Banks, mercantile corporations - some are possibly shells run by Navigator families, others just pick up cargo on planet x, deliver it to planet y and charge z imperial credits per unit volume, with even a few more independant traders (ala Firefly or even Elite - although a 40k Cobra would probably be a basic 200 tonnes capacity, not 20), even "ImpEx" couriers. :)

Sadly, most of 40k focusses on guns (well, hitting people with the butts of guns rather than shooting them with them) and good old fashioned chaos, death and spikey bits.

Kage2020
25-08-2010, 16:49
I think that any organisation as large and complex as the imperium is inefficient by its very nature. When you factor in the fact that both travle and communication over any sort of distance is based on something as unreliable and unpredictable as the warp you get a VERY inefficient system that survives purely on the relative self sufficiency of its individual parts (sectors and sub sectors).
That's true, and is ultimately what I have suggested numerous times in the past and mentioned above in reference to regionality. As to the warp, that's another thing that depends on which bits of the 'fluff' you believe.

Kage

Askil the Undecided
26-08-2010, 03:34
The thing is that corporations require a monetary system of value which the Imperium doesn't have on any level larger than an individual sector trade-curencies.

Without money large scale business becomes irrelevant because there is no cashflow from customer to company and thus no reason to persist.

The Imperium works on fuedal obligation the Imperium makes tithe demands of Imperial Governors in return for protection by the Navy and Guard communications provided by the Astra Telepathica, Tech from the AdMech and the right to petition the SM for aid. The Imperial Governor delegates these obligations to his people in return for protection by his militry forces the PDF a planetary defence fleet if he has one and the general maintainence of their lives status quo.

E.g.
The Imperium requires five hundred beef burgers to go > Imperium orders Imperial commander to tithe five hundred beef burgers > Imperial Commander orders five hundred beef burgers be made to go > Workers make five hundred beef burgers to go > Imperium collects it's five hundred beef burgers.

At no point in this chain does any money change hands, it is a duty performed for an authority not a service sold to a customer.

If anything just to help the capitalists sleep tonight the Imperium is the corporation, and everything is done internally for free using resources already owned by the company.

Iracundus
26-08-2010, 06:48
Interstellar commerce in the Imperium need not be purely currency based but may also be a semi-barter system. Corporations and mercantile houses can still exist in such a system, even though it may require more accounting than just taking payment in currency.

Although the Imperium demands taxes/tithes directly, that does not mean that is the only form of exporting done from a world. An agri-world might be ordered to tithe a percent of its harvest each year or each decade, but the rest may be exported to the nearest hive world in return for shipments of machinery and fertilizer produced by the hive world. Once food is received at the hive world, it isn't necessarily distributed by the government in a command economy fashion, but may go through local entities like noble houses or food processing guilds which may render payment in local currency or in kind.

The Medici have been mentioned as a good analogy for the types of mercantile entities that may exist. Contracts may well exist but given the unpredictabilities of warp travel and also the extreme conservatism and static status quo in the Imperium, these contracts may more resemble feudal obligations: Company A promises to sell X number of widgets to Company B at a fixed price of Y currency units per widget or in return for Z gizmos per widget for the next 200 years. This in fact is implied to be how Chartist captains make their living, plying well known trade routes generation after generation, eking a small but steady profit each run.

Shamana
26-08-2010, 07:43
Sorry, but doesn't the Imperium have a common currency - Thrones, credits or some such? It might not mean much on a feral world, and there would probably be other local currencies as well, but I think that a universal currency does exist.

Sai-Lauren
26-08-2010, 08:25
As I've mentioned before, some worlds would be tithed to produce an amount of certain resources, whilst others could be freer and produce various resources (ores, food, manpower, finished goods), so long as they don't go below a certain financial value (either in total or for the individual resources), determined by the Administratum.

Plus we do have examples of the Imperium buying goods (the Orlocks stuffing over the Van Saars to get a Munitorium lasgun contract certainly implies to me that they're going to make a nice hefty profit on it, rather than just being dutiful patriotic citizens :)).

And the civilians do buy things - which gives us small businesses, who in turn need to be supplied with goods to sell - which gives us manufacturing businesses, transport companies and distribution centres which are owned and run by larger companies, who'll need financial institutions to help fund them - likely even larger companies and so on all the way up the lines.

There's probably corporations that started on Terra tens of millenia ago, went out into the universe by funding the first warp age colonies (and would have been some of the few organisations that could have afforded buying or renting a warp capable transport vessel), merged with or took over others or were in turn taken over, shifted HQ location for tax reasons and now bear no resemblence to their original form.

Or in other words, there's probably a Starbucks on Armageddon... :p

AndrewGPaul
26-08-2010, 08:26
Sorry, but doesn't the Imperium have a common currency - Thrones, credits or some such? It might not mean much on a feral world, and there would probably be other local currencies as well, but I think that a universal currency does exist.

The Calixis sector does, but there's no evidence that they're used more widely than that.

Kage2020
26-08-2010, 12:43
Sorry, but doesn't the Imperium have a common currency - Thrones, credits or some such? It might not mean much on a feral world, and there would probably be other local currencies as well, but I think that a universal currency does exist.
The boat is out on that one, I'm afraid. There are some fans that believe it is possible and that it exists, even if most in the abstract form, while others state outright that it is impossible and that at best regional currencies exist. Take your pick. :D

Kage

Sai-Lauren
26-08-2010, 13:07
When did we last have that particular thread, about a month or so back? :)

Kage2020
26-08-2010, 13:54
LOL. When has a topic not repeated itself after a month or so? I'm always amazed when there isn't something that doesn't get repeated in every thread, and the only time when something "new" shows up it's because of a new publication and then ends up going over old ground.

"... nothing new under heaven and earth..." and all that kind of business. :shifty:

Kage

Sai-Lauren
26-08-2010, 15:04
At least that one's only roughly every six months or so - unlike those about Marines in the bedroom, which seem to occur if there's a vowel in the day. ;)

Back on topic, large corporations only really arose once there was fast communication and transport (basically with the invention of the Telephone, Railways and Steamships) which allowed for economies of scale with regional offices that act as hubs for sales representatives, distribution centres and so on, and as such, they would have difficulties trading in a dispersed galaxy, but they could still potentially hire Astropaths (some might even have them effectively on staff) to communicate sales figures and so on from regional offices to head offices (those fees would then feed back into the Imperium tax coffers, and Government business would take priority - IMO most such messages would be sent on the next merchantman heading towards the head office's world, or possibly a postal clipper service), and corporation taxes may be assessed locally on regional offices rather than on the whole corporation.

Malice313
26-08-2010, 16:47
LOL. When has a topic not repeated itself after a month or so? I'm always amazed when there isn't something that doesn't get repeated in every thread, and the only time when something "new" shows up it's because of a new publication and then ends up going over old ground.

"... nothing new under heaven and earth..." and all that kind of business. :shifty:

Kage

Going by comments you've made on various threads Kage; You seem so jaded with the hobby and this forum that I'm surprised you bother.

Kage2020
26-08-2010, 19:09
Going by comments you've made on various threads Kage; You seem so jaded with the hobby and this forum that I'm surprised you bother.
There's a difference between being burned out on the "hobby," which includes discussions that show up regular as clockwork for the past 10 years, and observing (as others) that the same topics show up over and over again. I like to think of these threads as representing the kind of things that fans would like to see.

On the other hand, given your post and if I were to be contrary, I could just say that it annoys people such as yourself. :D


Back on topic, large corporations only really arose once there was fast communication and transport (basically with the invention of the Telephone, Railways and Steamships) which allowed for economies of scale with regional offices that act as hubs for sales representatives, distribution centres and so on, and as such, they would have difficulties trading in a dispersed galaxy, but they could still potentially hire Astropaths (some might even have them effectively on staff) to communicate sales figures and so on from regional offices to head offices (those fees would then feed back into the Imperium tax coffers, and Government business would take priority - IMO most such messages would be sent on the next merchantman heading towards the head office's world, or possibly a postal clipper service), and corporation taxes may be assessed locally on regional offices rather than on the whole corporation.
Indeed. One of the primary bits of the "40k is medieaval Europe" that I do tend to agree with is how business operates. :D

Kage

Brother Siccarius
26-08-2010, 19:30
I was thinking about it and I realized that corporations have existed pretty much everywhere so I was wondering if there are any big companies in 40k.

The Adeptus Mechanicus comes to mind first. The galaxies largest corporation. There's also small guilds on different planets, as shown in Necromunda and various Black Library novels. There are traders and merchants who ply the space lanes between worlds and trade goods from one guild on one planet to another guild on another planet.

Kage2020
26-08-2010, 19:34
...And the Adeptus Mechanicus even has a privileged communication system as well (Holy Altar). Well, depending on how much you believe the older material (an increasing minority, it would seem). Just how that works is up for grabs. :D

Kage

Malice313
27-08-2010, 07:03
On the other hand, given your post and if I were to be contrary, I could just say that it annoys people such as yourself. :D

If you were being contrary then wouldn't that be trolling?;)

Sai-Lauren
27-08-2010, 08:05
Indeed. One of the primary bits of the "40k is medieaval Europe" that I do tend to agree with is how business operates. :D

Kage

But it it is medieval europe, it's still got interstellar FTL communications (Astropaths), cars, planes and so on.

Plus the Imperium may have regressed from it's greatest heights, but there's still artifacts of those heights there - I just think that Corporations would be one of those artifacts. :)

Dakkagor
27-08-2010, 09:25
The Imperium is fuedal and as such largely pre-mercantile as a societal structure as such money is pretty scarce and most of he economy works on the exchange of provided services rather than labour for wages. Mainly work for protection.

Yes and no. Some planets are very fuedal in layout and design, but plenty have been detailed that suggest that money and wealth changes hands. Money is useful in any system because it allows everything to have a price which isn't ten tonnes of future corn.

The imperium is certainly macro-fuedal, at the large scale tithing works in a completely fuedal manner. But consider an agriworld called The Stilts (a place I made up for a dark heresy game) this benighted place gives kelp and algae cakes as its tithes by long standing decree. Suddenly, a crotalid migration appears and you have warp travelling crocodiles all over the place. The locals grab their hunting rifles and start shooting them, and lo-and-behold, cortalid steak becomes a popular local dish. Now, crotalid isn't a tithed product, so the locals sell it to the chartist greatholds and turn a profit, which they can spend on better machinery, luxuries or whatever, the chartists sell it to the hives and make a bit of coin, and at the end of the chain, nobles on a hive world get to eat space crocodile steak. All occuring outside the imperiums fuedal tithe system. In a few centuries the whole process may be consolidated by one ambitious group into the "Stilts Crotalid Steak Corporation", but for now its individual and small scale economic action.

chromedog
27-08-2010, 09:40
I don't think Kage is jaded with the game, so much as some of the gamers.

I get the same feeling sometimes. Then I go play another game for a while. When I come back, THE SAME questions are still being argued over and none of them have read the source material they are claiming as gospel.

Cartels and 'corporations' exist, in the same way as the Greater and lesser houses of Dune (or even the Spire houses of necromunda). They are mentioned in several BL novels and background in several games.

Kage2020
27-08-2010, 12:29
If you were being contrary then wouldn't that be trolling?
I would imagine that the trolling would be making a snide comment without actually contributing. Since there was a contribution, if minor, then the troll would be... :eyebrows:


But it it is medieval europe, it's still got interstellar FTL communications (Astropaths), cars, planes and so on.
Perhaps I didn't quite make myself clear enough. I was suggesting that the "40k is medieval Europe" stance that, say, Dark Heresy really reinforces is not something that I agree with. It has taken the concept of "feudalism" and taking it to some of the more superficial caricatures and given it a Cornish or a Yorkshire accent.

On the other hand, using "medieval Europe" as a model for economy in the Imperium works regardless of whether you treat 40k as "medieval fantasy with guns" or not.

So, again, just as in "medieval Europe" there are "corporations," then so too in the 40k universe. This doesn't mean that you need the equivalent of multinationals, megacorporations, zaibatsus or whatever other thing you want to throw at the concept and say "they couldn't exist in 40k." Rather, you have extended business relationships, regionality of operation, etc.

It was certainly not a comment on the absence of "planes" or whatever.


All occuring outside the imperiums fuedal tithe system.
Exactly. Although, of course, a review by the Adeptus Administratum might get your aestimare and tithe class altered so that those steaks are now a part of the tithe.


I get the same feeling sometimes. Then I go play another game for a while. When I come back, THE SAME questions are still being argued over and none of them have read the source material they are claiming as gospel.
Or, in this case, once you remove the slight bit of trolling ( :shifty: ) it was merely a response to the previous post which suggested the same? Might be somthing to "thunk" about especially in the context as them operating as indicators of the kind of questions that at least some fans would like to have some insight into but none is ever provided. :D (Of course, having GW paraphrase a book on trade in medieval Europe might be a bit much... ;))

Kage

Malice313
27-08-2010, 21:16
Though the medieval economy would probably be the best example comparative to the Imperium, there can be more than one type of economy in any given society.

The black market, for example, is unbridled capitalism almost were ever it is found.

...not that organised criminal syndicates get publicly listed. They usually end up running the state.:(


I would imagine that the trolling would be making a snide comment without actually contributing. Since there was a contribution, if minor, then the troll would be... :eyebrows:

I have already made a few contributions to the thread.:angel:

...but your right, there is a difference between trolling and being a general sad sack, even if it is slight.:D to be honest, it does bore me to see the same old topics come up with almost clock work regularity, but I try to remember that there are people posting on here that are not as weary with experience as I am.

Kage2020
27-08-2010, 23:48
Though the medieval economy would probably be the best example comparative to the Imperium, there can be more than one type of economy in any given society.
A good reminder, though even the medieval economy wasn't quite as "feudal" as many people are making out.


to be honest, it does bore me to see the same old topics come up with almost clock work regularity, but I try to remember that there are people posting on here that are not as weary with experience as I am.
Hence the reply to the original comment. Labelling people as a misanthrope or "sad sack" (or whatever) should be done appropriately, don't you think so? (Read: It's never really appropriate. :D)

Kage

Malice313
28-08-2010, 00:22
A good reminder, though even the medieval economy wasn't quite as "feudal" as many people are making out.

Indeed. I suppose the feudalism was at its strongest during the Dark Ages.

I have heard of a school of thought that believes that the onset of the Black Plague (towards the middle/end of the medieval period of Europe), and its subsequent toll on the population, was a great force in bringing about the dissolution of feudalism.

Was the city state (like Venice) similar to the feudal model? I know they had a great deal of trade through out the Mediterranean.

Do you think that similar eras in the Imperium would be like city states. Like, say Ultimar, for arguments sake. (This is just an example, please don't get bogged down in the detail.)


Hence the reply to the original comment. Labelling people as a misanthrope or "sad sack" (or whatever) should be done appropriately, don't you think so? (Read: It's never really appropriate. :D)

It seems that dry, backhanded comments are inflammatory.:angel: Truce?